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[KHarvey16]

Well, first of all, you can't rewind in real life, whereas you can use TC, ABS, automatic transmissions, and receive tips from a driving instructor on a general driving line. But you can't rewind mistakes in real life. Fans have endlessly touted damage as essential for any racing sim, and the key feature that was holding GT back. Now that it's in, you just want to be able to reverse any damage you take? That's just mind-boggling.

You can't restart in real life either.

 

[cgcg]

The rewind assist is meaningless in comparison to the rest of the game. Yet some of you make it seem like its the defining feature for F3.

Exactly. There are already racing games out there with this feature and no one gave a shit about it. Yet all of sudden...:lol

 

[cakefoo]

You can't restart in real life either.

So I guess we should just screw realism and go for arcade physics in our sim racers, and maybe then we'll be the definitive racing sim.

 

[enzo_gt]

You can't restart in real life either.

Quick! Someone remove the start button! You can't pause in real life! It is unrealistic and does not add to the experience so it should be removed immediately!

 

[cgcg]

Yea, what a shitty argument. If it's not 100% realistic let's just forgo everything! Risk factor in a game? Who cares.

 

[KHarvey16]

So I guess we should just screw realism and go for arcade physics in our sim racers, and maybe then we'll be the definitive racing sim.

Yup, that's what I said. Good job.

If you happen to agree with some of your fellow posters that you cannot be considered a sim if you have rewind, you must admit that the same is true of any game with a restart capability.

 

[TTP]

Yup, that's what I said. Good job.

If you happen to agree with some of your fellow posters that you cannot be considered a sim if you have rewind, you must admit that the same is true of any game with a restart capability.

Having the ability to rewind clearly lightens the tension which many sees as a fundamental part of a driving simulation.

Btw, you can restart in real life. Not immediately and not after death, but you can. :lol

 

[KHarvey16]

Having the ability to rewind clearly lightens the tension which many sees as a fundamental part of a driving simulation.

Only if you have the self control of a 6 year old. Anyone interested in the tension of a simulation racer should have the willpower necessary to not press the select button.

 

[Duelist]

Having the ability to rewind clearly lightens the tension which many sees as a fundamental part of a driving simulation.

Btw, you can restart in real life. Not immediately and not after death, but you can. :lol

So having it as an extra option that you can willingly turn off if you're so serious about your driving games is a bad thing?

 

[imtehman]

The restart mechanic eliminates the risk, thus the excitement.

Having the ability to restart clearly lightens the tension which many sees as a fundamental part of a driving simulation.

 

[enzo_gt]

So having it as an extra option that you can willingly turn off if you're so serious about your driving games is a bad thing?

Options are bad, remember? Even though it's clear there will be a distinction between rewind times and non-rewind times on leaderboards. I really don't understand the argument against options, it all sounds like "you must do it 1337 or not do it at all."

 

[TTP]

So having it as an extra option that you can willingly turn off if you're so serious about your driving games is a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing at all. But it cheapens the experience IMO. Say you are on the last lap of a Nürburgring race, ahead of the pack, 2nd car right in your slipstream. Would you feel the pressure if you can undo any mistake you make? I personally wouldn't. And I wouldn't enjoy the win as much as I would if I shitted my pants before the finish line.

 

[KHarvey16]

It's not a bad thing at all. But it cheapens the experience IMO. Say you are on the last lap of a Nürburgring race, ahead of the pack, 2nd car right in your slipstream. Would you feel the pressure if you can undo any mistake you make? I personally wouldn't. And I wouldn't enjoy the win as much as I would if I shitted my pants before the finish line.

If you want the tension don't use it. Simple.

 

[TTP]

If you want the tension don't use it. Simple.

I'm weak

But yeah, it all depends on how it is implemented. How using it affects progression and such.

 

[Duelist]

It's not a bad thing at all. But it cheapens the experience IMO. Say you are on the last lap of a Nürburgring race, ahead of the pack, 2nd car right in your slipstream. Would you feel the pressure if you can undo any mistake you make? I personally wouldn't. And I wouldn't enjoy the win as much as I would if I shitted my pants before the finish line.

Personally, I wouldn't either. But I have the option of not using it. Someone else might feel the opposite. They would make use of this feature. Considering the game's audience (much broader than a hardcore PC racing sim), it's a good idea to have something like this.

And hey, I may not use this during actual races, but it is incredibly handy to be able to rewind during practice and try out different lines and finding the most optimal braking point through the same corner.

 

[TTP]

Personally, I wouldn't either. But I have the option of not using it. Someone else might feel the opposite. They would make use of this feature. Considering the game's audience (much broader than a hardcore PC racing sim), it's a good idea to have something like this.

And hey, I may not use this during actual races, but it is incredibly handy to be able to rewind during practice and try out different lines and finding the most optimal braking point through the same corner.

That's a good point. I'd love rewind during practice sessions.

 

[mujun]

It's not a bad thing at all. But it cheapens the experience IMO. Say you are on the last lap of a Nürburgring race, ahead of the pack, 2nd car right in your slipstream. Would you feel the pressure if you can undo any mistake you make? I personally wouldn't. And I wouldn't enjoy the win as much as I would if I shitted my pants before the finish line.

I might break my controller if that happened to me.

Remember there are more types of people in the world than just those who feel the same way as you.

That's why rewind is a great option for those who want to use it (or are too weak willed not too).

Does Forza 3 let you custom set your controller config? Maybe next we could argue about how that is stupid and the devs should force you to be a purist and use the config they think is the best.

 

[RSTEIN]

That's a good point. I'd love rewind during practice sessions.

That's the whole point! This is why the whole "rewind is a cheat" doesn't even make sense! I can't even believe what I'm reading.

If I'm a baseball player I'm going to have a pitcher throw a few strikes to warm me up. It won't be as fast as a real pitch but it will loosen me up and get me ready for the big game.

If I'm a UFC fighter I'm going to do an armbar 1,000 times in a controlled environment before the fight. It won't be like the real thing but it will allow me to perfect my technique.

If I'm the President and I have to deliver a speech I'm going to practice it many times - especially the critical points - again and again. I can do this at my own pace to get it right.

Before I'm going to race online in Forza 3 I can boot up a quick lap and repeat the same corner over and over at my own pace. I can practice tough spots to get better for the real race.

Can I cheat in baseball and have the opposing pitcher throw a soft strike? Can I cheat in UFC and ask my opponent to let me do an armbar? Can I as the President afford to screw up during a speech and look like an idiot on the world stage? Can I as an online racer in Forza 3 rewind the race? No!

Rewind is an aid. A tool that lets you practice. It's not a cheat because you don't have the option to use it during the real race. Simple as that.

 

[TTP]

I might break my controller if that happened to me.

Remember there are more types of people in the world than just those who feel the same way as you.

That's why rewind is a great option for those who want to use it (or are too weak willed not too).

Does Forza 3 let you custom set your controller config? Maybe next we could argue about how that is stupid and the devs should force you to be a purist and use the config they think is the best.

Hey, I'm not against the optional use of rewind in Forza 3. I don't even know how it works in the specifics, how it affects progression and so on. I'm just stating the obvious on a general level: rewind cheapens the experience. You want that, get that. You don't want that, ignore it.

 

[AMUSIX]

lot of helpful stuff

Thank you for your response...I guess it was exactly what I was looking for to help me fill in some gaps. However, I'm still a bit sketchy on some. It seems that what you're saying is that since ABS/TCS/Auto exist in real life, they're accepted in the game...but so many of these cars don't have these features in real life...and a lot of racing series simply don't allow them.

The thing that still sticks with me is that anything where the game take an active role between the player's input and the control of the vehicle is a hell of a lot more like cheating than allowing a driver to take a do-over (something that has been in every game, racing or not, since the coin-op days). Continue?

As for racing lines, there's a massive difference between them and guidance from your pit boss/co-pilot. Of course it doesn't give you the perfect line (I don't think it changes any if you modify your car...does it?) but it does feel like one step away from Disneyland's Autopia. As someone who's logged literally hundreds of hours out at Laguna Seca and Buttonwillow, I'd say that, if any of these assists were 'cheaty', the racing line would be it. It provides so much data and so much direction that it's practically hand-holding the player around the track.

 

[theignoramus]

Exactly. There are already racing games out there with this feature and no one gave a shit about it. Yet all of sudden...:lol

Grid's official thread is four pages long, 174 posts with barely any talk of it. I guess it had the wrong publisher.:lol :lol :lol

 

[TTP]

That's the whole point! This is why the whole "rewind is a cheat" doesn't even make sense! I can't even believe what I'm reading.

Wait, so rewind is only available in practice sessions in Forza 3? Not during the "carrier mode"? If so, that's even better.

 

[RSTEIN]

Wait, so rewind is only available in practice sessions in Forza 3? Not during the "carrier mode"? If so, that's even better.

No, it's available in career mode. It's available in every offline mode. ABS/traction/race line/rewind - all the typical assists and aids are available offline. When you go online you'll find a lot of rooms have no assists/no race line. And you obviously won't be able to rewind

 

[Omar Ismail]

People should know that I'm probably the biggest proponent of rewind you'll meet. I actually think it should be an essential feature in every game.

You can downplay all you want. But you're like the luddites arguing against digital distribution. Or motion control.

Your backwards thinking will be washed away by the piles of money the mainstream masses will throw at the smart developers that are able to strike the balance between providing a fun and accessible experience while providing a depth of experience that satisfies the reasonable enthusiasts. The thing about relics of the past is that they don't know they're being made obsolete until it's already happened.

Maybe I should change my proclamation. It's not that you're a moron if you're against rewind, it's that you're out of touch and irrelevant.

 

[Naughtboy]

Not sure if this has been posted already, but knowing how crazy people are on these forums, i'm pretty sure it's been posted already

http://www.destructoid.com/tgs-09-forza-motorsport-3-vs-gran-turismo-5-149770.phtml

First off, if you're looking for dirt, you won't find much here. Both upcoming racers Forza Motorsport 3 (Xbox 360) and Gran Turismo 5 (PS3) are sure to be great racing games. That said, I think there's a clear winner here between the two high-profile racers shown on the floor of Tokyo Game Show this year. As you read on, keep in mind that we're not comparing the games themselves as much as we are the demos shown on the TGS floor.

Both were in pretty nifty setups. Gran Turismo 5 had real-world racing seats built into metal frames. Inside, players sat in front of a high-end Sony display while controlling the game with the GT steering wheel set. Forza 3 was played on a three-screen setup. They too had racing chairs and a steering wheel controller. Putting all of that aside, though, which was the better game?

Visuals:
Winner: Forza Motorsport 3
While both games look great on the track, Forza's demo featured a polish that Gran Turismo 5's lacked. The rocky hillsides and lush greenery easily showed up the bland, almost clinical-looking cityscape of Gran Turismo. Driving slow in Gran Turismo is like inviting disappointment. I guess they were hoping you'd always be moving fast enough to not notice the perfectly flat tree and pole textures. Plants and trees on the side of the road look like paper cutouts, and the tree trunks are laughably bad. As far as the vehicle visuals go, neither game disappoints. Both supply unhealthy doses of car porn. The tighter racing action of Forza 3 made it easier to appreciate the models of the cars I raced against, but both pull off amazing feats as far as visuals go. Forza's framerate was liquid smooth, making it a bit easier on the eyes than GT5.

Control:
Winner: Forza Motorsport 3
Solely judging from the two on-floor demos, both of which used adjustable racing seats and steering wheel rigs, Forza 3's control won the race. There was something about the balance of control that made it seem especially intuitive. I'd go as far as to say that it felt damned near flawless with the steering wheel rig they had set up at each demo station. Gran Turismo controlled great as well, with the tilt leaning farther away from arcade action and more towards realism. Nothing was notably wrong with Gran Turismo's control. It's just that the seamless feeling that we felt with the controls in Forza wasn't there in GT5.



Game play:
Winner: Forza Motorsport 3
Both games were played on a rather easy track, and both featured racing line guidelines. Other than that, these two games play differently. Forza 3 had me racing against other AI characters that were way too easy to pass, even with the option to set the difficulty. My choice of a medium difficulty looked more like an easy to my eyes. I didn't try the "hard" setting, but I hope it's considerably more difficult than medium was. That said, some of the credit goes, again, to the seemingly flawless control of the game.

As for Gran Turismo, I watched plenty of others wipe out and give up before I played. It looked like people that had never played the series games before sat down and expected arcade racing. As always, Gran Turismo 5 had that realistic acceleration and turning that greatly contrasts to the loose, forgiving controls of other racers (Forza 3 not included, of course). I enjoy the challenge and learning curve, and prefer the rewarding stick-to-your-ribs racing that it provides. Even with that, though, Forza's gameplay was more enjoyable and approachable. It may be a bit more simple than that of GT5, but it still provides ample challenge for white knuckle racing.

If you have to have damage modeling, you want Forza 3. It's just not there in Gran Turismo. While I don't believe that it's a necessity to have damage modeling in a racing game, it is an added bonus. If you play in first-person view like I do, it's fun to see how messed up your vehicle is after a race. Gran Turismo doesn't do that. In fact, side of the road items like cones and tires don't even seem to be affected properly by impact. When I ran into a stack of tires, they seemed to float strangely in front of my car for a second before flying off to the right. I don't need true-to-life physics on these types of collisions, but this looked closer to the movement of a UFO than a stack of rubber tires.

Overall:
I'm a big Gran Turismo fan, so it was a bit of a surprise to me that the Forza Motorsport 3 demo did more for me. Things like damage modeling and background art aside, it was the superb control and high level of accessibility that won me over. Forza 3 was just more fun. More impressive. Of course, this is not to say that Gran Turismo 5 isn't a good game. It will be great, I'm sure, but Forza 3 show floor demo has me wanting to race again. I need to get me one of these three-screen setups too.

Lets not all go crazy, it is from one guy's perspective and he is comparing a game that's already gone gold and one thats not coming out for another 4+ months. Interesting read though

 

[Hawk269]

Only if you have the self control of a 6 year old. Anyone interested in the tension of a simulation racer should have the willpower necessary to not press the select button.

Bingo...You hit the nail right on the head. I think it is a good feature, but that is what it is...a feature. You as the player can choose to use it or not use it. For me, I doubt I will use it much, but there have been times when racing a 20 lap race and I sneeze at lap 18 and screw up, I would of loved to have a feature like this.

For the purists, just dont use it. Hell, even the leaderboards are designed to show who does use the feature, so if you want a pure top time, the game will tell teh world you did it without the rewind.

 

[theignoramus]

Your backwards thinking will be washed away by the piles of money the mainstream masses will throw at the smart developers that are able to strike the balance between providing a fun and accessible experience while providing a depth of experience that satisfies the reasonable enthusiasts. The thing about relics of the past is that they don't know they're being made obsolete until it's already happened.

Does anyone have the sales number for Grid? Surely its sales will be an excellent indication of the revolution to come.

 

[evolution]

Not sure if this has been posted already, but knowing how crazy people are on these forums, i'm pretty sure it's been posted already



Lets not all go crazy, it is from one guy's perspective and he is comparing a game that's already gone gold and one thats not coming out for another 4+ months. Interesting read though

Very old

 

[Interfectum]

Not sure if this has been posted already, but knowing how crazy people are on these forums, i'm pretty sure it's been posted already

http://www.destructoid.com/tgs-09-forza-motorsport-3-vs-gran-turismo-5-149770.phtml



Lets not all go crazy, it is from one guy's perspective and he is comparing a game that's already gone gold and one thats not coming out for another 4+ months. Interesting read though

Old and already been discredited by the experts at Top Gear.

 

[Niks]

I think rewind is a pretty handy feature and it could be a great learning tool for beginners...
It should be included in GT5.


That said...
please keep it only in arcade mode...no place for it in simulation mode.

 

[Insertia]

I hope rewind in racing doesn't become a trend.

A key component of racing is the tension that you can screw up at any time. You can lead the pack on the final lap, but one fuck up and it's over.

Screwing up on the final lap, rewinding to the point before I took the bad turn, then taking it properly and getting first place doesn't sound like fun. Doesn't sound like racing. It's why I couldn't take GRID seriously.

 

[alr1ght]

I hope rewind in racing doesn't become a trend.

A key component of racing is the tension that you can screw up at any time. You can lead the pack on the final lap, but one fuck up and it's over.

Screwing up on the final lap, rewinding to the point before I took the bad turn, then taking it properly and getting first place doesn't sound like fun. Doesn't sound like racing. It's why I couldn't take GRID seriously.

It is optional though. I played with it a little in the Forza demo and thought it was a pretty neat tool.

 

[AFreak]

Who had the first racing line anyway? I still remember having one on Need for Speed 2 back on the PC.

 

[KHarvey16]

I hope rewind in racing doesn't become a trend.

A key component of racing is the tension that you can screw up at any time. You can lead the pack on the final lap, but one fuck up and it's over.

Screwing up on the final lap, rewinding to the point before I took the bad turn, then taking it properly and getting first place doesn't sound like fun. Doesn't sound like racing. It's why I couldn't take GRID seriously.

There is a great way to avoid all of that: don't push the button. It's complicated and takes many hours of practice, but it's doable.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Hows this for an option. You buy a motorcycle on ebay for 2k, then later find out that it was fake and you lost your money. You have the option to rewind or you can just take that lesson and be extra careful from there on out. Getting the money back will cause you to learn less, not having rewind will let the lesson learned stick with you.

I think having rewind in GT would make license tests less meaningful and no one will gain anything from doing them. Are people that into time trials to care if they aren't placed on it (even with rewind their time probably sucks if they need to rewind). People will gladly take the rewards in GT over failing the race and getting a crappy time. Easy games are less fun. People are easily tempted, and they can weigh their options. Rewind would be used a lot. Get the money, upgrade to a faster car, learn nothing, power your way through the game with rewind on your side.

Edit: I hate that racing line that showed up in the GT5 demo. I didn't like it in one of the old GTs in some mode either (I think it was some kinda test mode or something, GT3 or 4. I believe you could turn it off though). That line thing is lame.

 

[bran]

There is a great way to avoid all of that: don't push the button. It's complicated and takes many hours of practice, but it's doable.

Haha that means a lot when online leaderboards allow full ABS, full automatic and full traction/stability management and rewind N # of times.

DUMB!

Options:
#1 I vote removing the rewind feature completely. It is unnecessary.
#2 Every time you rewind, the amount of time you rewinded is added to your final lap time. Yes, you can "uncrash" you car but you do not get to post that time online, kthxbye.

 

[KHarvey16]

Haha that means a lot when online leaderboards allow full ABS, full automatic and full traction/stability management and rewind N # of times.

DUMB!

Options:
#1 I vote removing the rewind feature completely. It is unnecessary.
#2 Every time you rewind, the amount of time you rewinded is added to your final lap time. Yes, you can "uncrash" you car but you do not get to post that time online, kthxbye.

Rewind makes you ineligible for the primary leaderboards. When you use assists they are noted in your time. The top times generally don't have them

 

[Myzer]

I think rewind is a pretty handy feature and it could be a great learning tool for beginners...
It should be included in GT5.


That said...
please keep it only in arcade mode...no place for it in simulation mode.

At first I was "God No!" but then I guess it would be "ok" in arcade, but definately keep it well away from simulation mode.

I hate rewind. It just feels like a total cop out and an easy escape for people who suck at racing games.

 

[bran]

Rewind makes you ineligible for the primary leaderboards. When you use assists they are noted in your time. The top times generally don't have them

WRONG, the top times use a lot of ABS and automatic transmission. In the career mode if you use those assists you get a penalty on your money earnings, should be the same with lap times.

ie: If you use assists, you get 110% times your laptime, a 1:00:00 time becomes 1:06:00.

 

[evolution]

I don't really understand why T10 included rewind in the leaderboards at all. If you use it the lap should be invalid

 

[bran]

I don't really understand why T10 included rewind in the leaderboards at all. If you use it the lap should be invalid

It's like adding cheat codes to multiplayer. Can't beat them? Imagine Call of Duty if you die, you have the option to rewind.

 

[KHarvey16]

WRONG, the top times use a lot of ABS and automatic transmission. In the career mode if you use those assists you get a penalty on your money earnings, should be the same with lap times.

ie: If you use assists, you get 110% times your laptime, a 1:00:00 time becomes 1:06:00.

ABS, sure, but was always under the impression manual was faster. Doesn't change the fact rewind makes you ineligible.

I don't really understand why T10 included rewind in the leaderboards at all. If you use it the lap should be invalid

They didn't.

 

[bran]

ABS, sure, but was always under the impression manual was faster. Doesn't change the fact rewind makes you ineligible.



They didn't.

Manual maybe fast in real life. But "automatic" in video games mean jesus operates your gearbox for you, not that it's an actual automatic gearbox in the car.

Something like Civic type R would have a 6 speed manual but maybe 4speed or 5speed automatic. But in this game, "auto" Civic has the same 6 speed manual, but it is operated by again.... Jesus himself.

You tell me:

- is full manual with cluth faster than automatic transmission in Forza?
- driving a 600hp corvette coming out a corner, are you going to accelerate out faster with traction control on or off?

 

[evolution]

ABS, sure, but was always under the impression manual was faster. Doesn't change the fact rewind makes you ineligible.



They didn't.

If you can still post a time on the leaderboards even though you used the rewind tool they clearly did.

 

[KHarvey16]

Manual maybe fast in real life. But "automatic" in video games mean jesus operates your gearbox for you, not that it's an actual automatic gearbox in the car.

Something like Civic type R would have a 6 speed manual but maybe 4speed or 5speed automatic. But in this game, "auto" Civic has the same 6 speed manual, but it is operated by again.... Jesus himself.

You tell me:

- is full manual with cluth faster than automatic transmission in Forza?
- driving a 600hp corvette coming out a corner, are you going to accelerate out faster with traction control on or off?

Every top time in the Forza 3 demo is without any assists. With the exception of the Porsche, the top several times are all free of any assists.

If you can still post a time on the leaderboards even though you used the rewind tool they clearly did.

What are you talking about? Did you just dive into the conversation without reading anything?

 

[mujun]

I hope they add a rewind function to GT5, this thread will be a copy and paste gold mine.

People arguing for less options are just plain stupid in my book. Exercising your own will is much better than cutting down your audience.

 

[Duelist]

Manual maybe fast in real life. But "automatic" in video games mean jesus operates your gearbox for you, not that it's an actual automatic gearbox in the car.

Something like Civic type R would have a 6 speed manual but maybe 4speed or 5speed automatic. But in this game, "auto" Civic has the same 6 speed manual, but it is operated by again.... Jesus himself.

You tell me:

- is full manual with cluth faster than automatic transmission in Forza?
- driving a 600hp corvette coming out a corner, are you going to accelerate out faster with traction control on or off?

Wow, completely not true at all. With manual, you are able to do things such as slow down but stay in the optimal rev range for that gear as you make a turn, whereas with automatic the car will shift down and you get screwed with trying to maintain the same exit speed.

As for traction control, if turn it off and you jam the accelerator down without doing it smoothly, your car will spin out. The effect is more pronounced if you're driving an RWD. This doesn't happen when TCS is on.

 

[evolution]

Every top time in the Forza 3 demo is without any assists. With the exception of the Porsche, the top several times are all free of any assists.



What are you talking about? Did you just dive into the conversation without reading anything?

No i just watched a video and the guy showing the game talked about it. You have clearly missed something. If a lap time you posted used the rewind tool your automatically lowered in the rankings no matter the time. It seems strange to account for rewind in lap times, they should just be invalidated.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

I hope they add a rewind function to GT5, this thread will be a copy and paste gold mine.

People arguing for less options are just plain stupid in my book. Exercising your own will is much better than cutting down your audience.

The argument of more options is always good isn't a good argument. Unlimited credits, unlock all cars, make opponents slower could be options but having them in this kind of game wouldn't make it good. It would work in GTA though, rewind too.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

No i just watched a video and the guy showing the game talked about it. You have clearly missed something. If a lap time you posted used the rewind tool your automatically lowered in the rankings no matter the time. It seems strange to account for rewind in lap times, they should just be invalidated.

Did you miss this reply:

Actually, you get ranked on completely different leaderboards.