Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

Firewire said:
Getting everything down life like is damn hard for both Turn10 and PD. PD I think does a better job of it to a degree but when you have the time they do compared to the Forza team its understandable.

Just keep adjusting till she feels right and then hopefully you can save the settings?
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Yeah, that's what I did. I have it adjusted now where it feels absolutely spot on. Like I said though, I may have come off wrong, I wasn't trying in any way to be detrimental to the game or series, it was just an inquisitive thing really. I thought that it would just be a mathematical thing, if you had the correct final drive ratio, and gearing numbers for each gear, and matched that with the exact rims and tire size, that it would come out right (or at least real close). So I thought maybe I was missing a piece of the puzzle or something and was just curious to understand the whole idea behind it all.
 
LCfiner said:
I didn't "switch opinions". and I never said that it was "just PR" for Turn 10 so it's acceptable on one side and not on another.

jack Tretton's comment in the Forbes article are self serving. So are Turn 10s comments about being "definitive". they're both pretty much the same to me. heck, I called out the definitive comment in that other thread.

And I've commented in the Tretton thread that the industry is usually unstable and not at its best when any one player dominates (see: Nintendo screwing over third parties in the NES days)

The only comment that has gotten me upset in this entire thread was the one about players who might use the rewind feature shouldn't even be playing racers.

aside from that, I'm just having fun in all these threads.
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Water under the bridge, lets just move on. Sorry.
 
rewind feature being completely optional shouldn't, in theory, bother anyone (your lap times are not 'certified' if you use rewind for example, and i suppose there's achievments for not using it, not sure though) but i feel it takes away from the excitement somehow. In f2 i was struggling trying to avoid collisions with other cars; knowing every mistake can be corrected will make races less intense.

On the other hand,..i could never complete fm2 and i gave up playing regularly when races started getting too long; with Fm2 AI becoming very challenging and aggressive towards the final laps, one second was all it took to completely and hopelessly ruin a perfect 20 mins long race. which is realistic and cool and all, but makes you go fuck that and turn the console off, and makes you a lot less thrilled at the thought of going at it again.

Ultimately, when all is said and done i believe rewind will help me appreciate the game more, I don't have a lot of time for videogames lately and besides, correcting your mistakes won't make winning races automatically easy.



As for Dan's claims; yeah, i don't care for "definitive". My idea of definitive right now would be forza + gt *replays* graphics; which makes forza a lot closer to my ideal racer than gt.
There's still a lot that can be done and simulated, but i don't think that's for this gen.

What i find harder to accept is the 10x the polygons and 4x the texture resolution claims; which is technically true...in menus and makes me hate the whole marketing strategy behind the game, which was entirely played on half truths and rather misleading pics.

Funny part is, when the game was unveiled, we were shown a trailer which was 100% representative of ingame graphics and it looked good enough for people not to care about numbers, or have reasons to doubt them. The game didn't need that kind of publicity in first place, and yet it backfired.
 
rewind is fine. it's an option. but it's an option that requires resources. and devs dont have unlimited resources.

So, would I rather want rewind or awesome graphics?

I'll pick the latter. awesome graphic = appreciate by everyone. rewind = appreciate by some
 
Tideas said:
rewind is fine. it's an option. but it's an option that requires resources. and devs dont have unlimited resources.

So, would I rather want rewind or awesome graphics?

I'll pick the latter. awesome graphic = appreciate by everyone. rewind = appreciate by some
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There's no choice to be made, man. You're not automatically going to have better graphics if you remove the rewind option, because it hardly takes any resources. It just records your input commands, as well as those of the other cars, which is something both games already do for the replays.
 
Trunchisholm said:
There's no choice to be made, man. You're not automatically going to have better graphics if you remove the rewind option, because it hardly takes any resources. It just records your input commands, as well as those of the other cars, which is something the game already does for the replays.
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how can you say it "hardly" take any resources? It takes people to design it, it takes ppl to code it, it takes people to test it, and it takes people to verify it.

ANYTHING in a game takes resources that could have been spent elsewhere.
 
Tideas said:
rewind is fine. it's an option. but it's an option that requires resources. and devs dont have unlimited resources.

So, would I rather want rewind or awesome graphics?

I'll pick the latter. awesome graphic = appreciate by everyone. rewind = appreciate by some
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wait, what? you would rather have rewind than better graphics? lol.

might as well hope for infinite turbo boost for all cars. or the ability to freeze a.i. after all, these are options that will HELP YOU progress through the game.
 
shpankey said:
Did you even read my post? You can turn the Mazda into a Mazdaspeed basically. When you upgrade your car, in the game, it actually has the Mazdaspeed upgrades.

But even if it doesn't. What goes into a car's shift points exactly (this is an honest question, I don't know the answer to)? So I'm asking.

I bought the 6 speed tranny. In the tuning options, you can tune your car's final drive ratio and also tune the gearing for each and every gear. So, using the manufacturer's numbers, I plugged those in. I used 18 inch wheels (same as mine) and the same tires as mine. So I know the transmission is right and the wheels and tires are right. In older cars, I know the transaxle comes into play and maybe the flywheel? So again, I'm asking (politely) what else can be making it so far off? I know the engine would make a difference as far as shift point in relation to the RPM's. But like I said, the game was so far off that it left me scratching my head.

Anyhow, I'm not trying to play smart here. I admit I don't know a lot about the subject. Which is why I was asking. I didn't really appreciate the smart-elec response, as you obviously mis-read my post (if you read it all even) if you thought I was trying to be anything other than inquisitive.

I understand everyone in here's just automatically on the defensive towards any post. But feel free to look at my post history (as I know some do) if you think I'm trying to be hateful towards Turn10, MSFT or Xbox.
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I wasn't trying to be a smart elec. I could tell you weren't trying to be an asshole. You should look at how the RPMs, Gear, and Speed match between the two. As I'm not sure how you're judging shift points in the game. Also, I don't think Forza 2 had actual transmission specs for upgrades...only stock. So the 6-speed you upgraded to in the game most likely isn't supposed to be the one offered in the MS3. If I remember correctly there is just a generic Sport and Race transmission upgrade...with race being the only one with customizable per gear ratios. What exactly was off?
 
Tideas said:
how can you say it "hardly" take any resources? It takes people to design it, it takes ppl to code it, it takes people to test it, and it takes people to verify it.

ANYTHING in a game takes resources that could have been spent elsewhere.
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Obviously, we have different ideas when it comes to "resources". I was talking about hardware resources and you about human resources. Even then, it takes little effort to code that one feature in comparison to what they would have to do to beef up the graphics. As I said, all it takes is recording every player's inputs -already done for replays-, the rest is fairly easy. I can't see it taking months to implement and test, given that the very same idea has been implemented in many games in the last few years.
 
-viper- said:
wait, what? you would rather have rewind than better graphics? lol.

might as well hope for infinite turbo boost for all cars. or the ability to freeze a.i. after all, these are options that will HELP YOU progress through the game.
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You should look up what 'latter' means.

Or read the rest of their post maybe.
 
-viper- said:
wait, what? you would rather have rewind than better graphics? lol.

might as well hope for infinite turbo boost for all cars. or the ability to freeze a.i. after all, these are options that will HELP YOU progress through the game.
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Just taking out a relatively small feature such as rewind does not automatically guarantee the game would have better graphics. That's an absurd notion really. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. But in all reality, it's very doubtful. Besides, the graphics are fine. In fact, they're great. At some point, one needs to move on from graphics and add features and tweak gameplay. The rewind feature is a very good feature as it makes the game much more accessible but at the same time helps players that are struggling with a specific spot on the track learn to drive better. Unlike your absurd analogy of freezing the AI cars, the player still needs to negotiate the corner or spot where the mistake took place and is therefore learning how to drive properly.

Even an experienced player can use this feature. Since your times aren't put on the leaderboard if you use it, there is still incentive to NOT use it. But at the same time, one could use it to better learn a track, more specifically, learn how to negotiate a particularly troubling corner. It's more time saving than anything... if you have a track down pat but always have trouble on 1 corner, one could use this feature to practice that corner over and over. With the idea of getting a handle on it and then getting some good lap times down without its use. Combined with the Ghost feature, it's really helpful, because you can use the ghost car to gauge just how well you took the corner by comparison. This is how I've been utilizing it. To great effect. It's helped me really trim down my overall lap times.

Cheeto said:
I wasn't trying to be a smart elec. I could tell you weren't trying to be an asshole. You should look at how the RPMs, Gear, and Speed match between the two. As I'm not sure how you're judging shift points in the game. Also, I don't think Forza 2 had actual transmission specs for upgrades...only stock. So the 6-speed you upgraded to in the game most likely isn't supposed to be the one offered in the MS3. If I remember correctly there is just a generic Sport and Race transmission upgrade...with race being the only one with customizable per gear ratios. What exactly was off?
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As I mentioned, the speeds of the shift points. Also, some gears were much longer than others. 1st was like 15mph over, but shifting into 2nd was a reaaallly long gear.
 
New GT5 Video Shows off Toyota FT-86 Concept

toyota-ft-86.jpg


can u tag youtube on gaf?

doh wrong thread...

and late :\
 
Omar Ismail said:
We already have one series that's focused entirely on graphics at the expense of everything else.


oh snap!
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While the other is too busy talking shit about their competitor and making their game friendlier to grandmas to fix a simple window tinting effect.
 
Pepto said:
Yeah why would anyone want more gameplay options instead of better graphics...
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That is exactly why I suggested infinite turbo boost and freezing A.I. After all, they're optional. And they will make the game fun.

And uh, the ability to shoot rockets out of the car, just like James Bond. How cool would that be?

More gameplay options = win win situation for everyone. Would make the game so much more appealing to everyone around the world.

What about bullet time? Would be fantastic to slow down time when racing at the Nurburgring.
 
-viper- said:
That is exactly why I suggested infinite turbo boost and freezing A.I. After all, they're optional. And they will make the game fun.

And uh, the ability to shoot rockets out of the car, just like James Bond. How cool would that be?

More gameplay options = win win situation for everyone. Would make the game so much more appealing to everyone around the world.

What about bullet time? Would be fantastic to slow down time when racing at the Nurburgring.
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i would love those options.. fuck sim racing.. boring gameplay to the max
 
-viper- said:
That is exactly why I suggested infinite turbo boost and freezing A.I. After all, they're optional. And they will make the game fun.

And uh, the ability to shoot rockets out of the car, just like James Bond. How cool would that be?

More gameplay options = win win situation for everyone. Would make the game so much more appealing to everyone around the world.

What about bullet time? Would be fantastic to slow down time when racing at the Nurburgring.
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What point are you trying to make comparing chalk to cheese? Why don't you just say what you mean, GT for life, Forza sucks.
 
-viper- said:
That is exactly why I suggested infinite turbo boost and freezing A.I. After all, they're optional. And they will make the game fun.

And uh, the ability to shoot rockets out of the car, just like James Bond. How cool would that be?

More gameplay options = win win situation for everyone. Would make the game so much more appealing to everyone around the world.

What about bullet time? Would be fantastic to slow down time when racing at the Nurburgring.
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Do any of those optional features make you a better sim racer? No.

Does rewind make you a better sim racer? Yes.

Do any of those features alter the fundamental mechanic of racing? Yes

Does rewind alter the fundamental mechanics of racing? No


Exaggerated extreme examples are the refuge of people that have no real counter points.
 
mujun said:
What point are you trying to make comparing chalk to cheese? Why don't you just say what you mean, GT for life, Forza sucks.
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What? At the end of the day, they're all cheats.

I thought having more options was good though. And good luck in trying to find any troll posts against Forza in my post history.

But I have made it clear that rewind is retarded.

No one gave two shits about the feature in GRID. But all of a sudden its a VERY IMPORTANT feature in a racing game now that it's in Forza 3.

Perhaps bullet time, infinite nitro and ability to shoot rockets can be essential features if Turn 10 implement them in Forza 4. Hmm. I hope they do.
 
Omar Ismail said:
Do any of those optional features make you a better sim racer? No.

Does rewind make you a better sim racer? Yes.

Do any of those features alter the fundamental mechanic of racing? Yes

Does rewind alter the fundamental mechanics of racing? No


Exaggerated extreme examples are the refuge of people that have no real counter points.
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:lol

Of course they do. And rewind doesn't make you a better driver if you happen to use it 10 times in every race you play.

Rewind DOES alter 'the fundamental mechanics of racing'. Once you crash, you can simply reverse the situation, making damage completely useless.

Freezing A.I. does't alter the fundamental mechanics of racing. You still have to get around the track. You just don't race anyone.

Let's be honest. All Forza 3 fans won't change their opinion about rewind (simply because it's in Forza 3). So I'll try to end the discussion right here.
 
I'm of the understand that rewind is not discouraged at all during career racing in FM3, other than in the leaderboards- it should additionally be penalizing you in the amount of currency you earn each race, so that you're encouraged to take the high road- the thing is, unlike damage penalties in Forza 2, rewind in Forza 3 is at your fingertips on a case-by-case basis- you would then have to agree before the race starts, that the rewind function would need to be disabled entirely, just as you would enable damage and assists beforehand.
 
-viper- said:
:lol

Of course they do. And rewind doesn't make you a better driver if you happen to use it 10 times in every race you play.

Rewind DOES alter 'the fundamental mechanics of racing'. Once you crash, you can simply reverse the situation, making damage completely useless.

Freezing A.I. does't alter the fundamental mechanics of racing. You still have to get around the track. You just don't race anyone.

Let's be honest. All Forza 3 fans won't change their opinion about rewind (simply because it's in Forza 3). So I'll try to end the discussion right here.
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i'm not a big sim racing fan but i like the detail that goes into the games so i like to give them a shot. rewind made me realize that i was taking corners completely wrong and i didn't understand acceleration at all, lol. i would have gotten there eventually but being able to come down the stretch again doing the same speed a few times i got the hang of it. not having to go to any menu helps too. now i take better lines and monitor my speed through turns a lot more in general. if i decide to buy F3 i doubt i'd use it again though, it's served its purpose. for me at least; others can cheat their way through the game if they want. whatevs.

so it may seem like rocket car bullet time to you, and that's fine, i don't play games from inside your brain so it's no effect on me. just wanted to throw out there someone who dug the rewind feature. now i don't have to turn all of those assists on and play it like an arcade racer.
 
cakefoo said:
I'm of the understand that rewind is not discouraged at all during career racing in FM3, other than in the leaderboards- it should additionally be penalizing you in the amount of currency you earn each race, so that you're encouraged to take the high road- the thing is, unlike damage penalties in Forza 2, rewind in Forza 3 is at your fingertips on a case-by-case basis- you would then have to agree before the race starts, that the rewind function would need to be disabled entirely, just as you would enable damage and assists beforehand.
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Every other assist robs you of cash, I wouldn't be surprised if rewind did as well. But someone with the game could probably confirm that.
 
It's been confirmed rewind doesn't penalise you in terms of credits gained at the completion of a race I believe. Which is disappointing but no huge deal as it's only singleplayer racing that's affected by it, not time trials or online, both of which are more important.

If rewind is a cheat though, then isn't traction control, ABS and an automatic transmission in a race car a cheat? Both games allow such things, and they're more clearly "cheats" than what FM3 allows you to do with rewind.
 
-viper- said:
What? At the end of the day, they're all cheats.

I thought having more options was good though. And good luck in trying to find any troll posts against Forza in my post history.

But I have made it clear that rewind is retarded.

No one gave two shits about the feature in GRID. But all of a sudden its a VERY IMPORTANT feature in a racing game now that it's in Forza 3.

Perhaps bullet time, infinite nitro and ability to shoot rockets can be essential features if Turn 10 implement them in Forza 4. Hmm. I hope they do.
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So you shouldn't be able to choose the level of opponent AI either?

Whether rewind is a cheat or not is debatable but I can see it's convenient for your argument, let's you lump it in with stupid suggestions like bullet time in a racer so to make your discrediting of the the game easier. Why don't you just concentrate on why you think rewind is bad instead of trying to convince people it's like freezing the opponent AI.

I didn't notice anyone acting like rewind is the next big thing, seemed to me that the haters latched on to it as their next means to attack the game and some people are trying to defend it's inclusion as a result.

GT is great for the hardcore but has always failed to attract people who don't want such an unforgiving experience. Seems to me the Forza devs are trying to make their game appeal to these more casual racing fans as well as the hardcore people by giving them a bunch of ways they can make it easier and therefore more enjoyable. I don't see what's wrong with that and also don't see why the purists have any reason to complain because none of these options should detract from their ability to enjoy the game as a hardcore experience. That is unless their true motivation is just to attack the game because it's not on their system of choice and a competitor to their franchise of choice.
 
-viper- said:
Of course they do. And rewind doesn't make you a better driver if you happen to use it 10 times in every race you play.
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Actually I would contend the more I use it the better I'll get. I can practice any corner I want as many times as I want. I don't see why you think having more opportunity to practice would make me a worse driver.

-viper- said:
Rewind DOES alter 'the fundamental mechanics of racing'. Once you crash, you can simply reverse the situation, making damage completely useless.
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Nope, it doesn't. I can't use rewind in a real race. Rewind is a practice aid. Just like the race line. Chances are I won't be able to bring the race line over to a real race, either. But I'm definitely going to use it to practice.

-viper- said:
Let's be honest. All Forza 3 fans won't change their opinion about rewind (simply because it's in Forza 3). So I'll try to end the discussion right here.
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I think rewind is a great feature. I'm really not sure how it being included in Forza 3 influences the discussion considering it's not the first game to include the feature. A lot of terrible games use rewind (Full Auto anyone?). Some great games use rewind. It's a feature. Doesn't make or break a game.
 
mujun said:
If that means closing the thread then I wholeheartedly agree.
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SLippery slope, because then everyone will slide back into stealth trolling...

But with the new rules in effect, might just work? I think this thread did a good job pointing out all the severe fanboys.. can use it for future reference when someone bashes either game :lol
 
Figured I'd throw this in here.

Mostly to compare/contrast both trailers.

Yes, misinformation about GT5's release date (around the time of Tokyo Game Show) and LOL TOP GEAR from detractors and all, but still... talking point. Don't think it's in the thread.
 
I want an option to automatically put me in the final lap of 99 lap race. IT'S NOT CHEATING OR A COP-OUT IT JUST AN OPTION!! OPTIONS AREN'T BAD!!!

Let's be honest. Rewind in a racing sim is a pretty stupid option to have. Options are good when their suitable.
 
mujun said:
I didn't notice anyone acting like rewind is the next big thing, seemed to me that the haters latched on to it as their next means to attack the game and some people are trying to defend it's inclusion as a result.
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I'm touting it as the next big thing :)

I'm not a fan of Grid's handling so rewind didn't all of a sudden make that a stellar game or anything. Same with Dirt 2. Actually I quite enjoy Dirt 2 and rewind is a great feature, but I don't like their implementation of it. It's limited to a certain number of uses in a specific track, and it's not seamless like in F3.

I'm SOOOOOOOOO glad that T10 didn't listen to the out of touch luddites that want to hold gaming back for their completely arbitrary notion of what a racing sim 'should be'. Inevitably, all of these back and forths is useless and the market will be the true judge and prove me right :)

And for my small piece of the market... I won't be buying any hardcore racing sim without rewind.

Ironically, Arcade games with boost and all of that don't need a rewind mechanic because crashes/mistakes are so much more forgiving. It's precisely the hardcore sims that need a mechanic like rewind.
 
Insertia said:
I want an option to automatically put me in the final lap of 99 lap race. IT'S NOT CHEATING OR A COP-OUT IT JUST AN OPTION!! OPTIONS AREN'T BAD!!!

Let's be honest. Rewind in a racing sim is a pretty stupid option to have. Options are good when their suitable.
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So regenerating health in COD sucks and is on par with something like having a BFG that with one shot kills every enemy in the level huh. Again great logic, well thought out and totally not making you look like a fanboy with an agenda joining the pitchfork wielding mob getting their shots in where they can.
 
Rewind in the next MLB 10 The Show game would be great. I want to be able to undo the AI team's base hits because... well... I should win every game.
 
cakefoo said:
Rewind in the next MLB 10 The Show game would be great. I want to be able to undo the AI team's base hits because... well... I should win every game.
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u knwo u could still win every game by putting the game on very easy/rookie too right? You know, options[/]b are good
 
cakefoo said:
Rewind in the next MLB 10 The Show game would be great. I want to be able to undo the AI team's base hits because... well... I should win every game.
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?!?

"I don't like ketchup on hot dogs. What's next KETCHUP ON PIZZA?!?"
 
imtehman said:
u knwo u could still win every game by putting the game on very easy/rookie too right? You know, options[/]b are good
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One is a mismatch in terms of player skill, and the other is a get-out-of-any-sticky-situation-whenever-you-want cheat akin to something a GameGenie would do.
 
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