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[Duelist]

One is a mismatch in terms of player skill, and the other is a get-out-of-any-sticky-situation-whenever-you-want cheat akin to something a GameGenie would do.

Why is this a problem again?

 

[cakefoo]

Why is this a problem again?

You mean, why is it a stupid choice for a racing simulator?

 

[imtehman]

You mean, why is it a stupid choice for a racing simulator?

you know, you couuld always chose NOT to use it.

Because, you know, its an optional feature.

 

[cakefoo]

you know, you couuld always chose NOT to use it.

Because, you know, its an optional feature.

The option to turn a mistake into a win with a shameless press of a button shouldn't even be anywhere outside the practice mode of any game trying to be a simulation.

No matter how many times I say it, and no matter how rational I may be, you're not going to accept the fact that I can have a valid opinion other than the one you have.

 

[imtehman]

The option to turn a mistake into a win with a shameless press of a button shouldn't even be anywhere outside the practice mode of any game trying to be a simulation.

No matter how many times I say it, and no matter how rational I may be, you're not going to accept the fact that I can have a valid opinion other than the one you have.

yes, very hard to understand someone complaining about an optional feature that you can choose to use or not to use.

 

[VULKIN]

The option to turn a mistake into a win with a shameless press of a button shouldn't even be anywhere outside the practice mode of any game trying to be a simulation.

No matter how many times I say it, and no matter how rational I may be, you're not going to accept the fact that I can have a valid opinion other than the one you have.

I didn't know that the button = "win" :lol

 

[Chrange]

The option to turn a mistake into a win with a shameless press of a button shouldn't even be anywhere outside the practice mode of any game trying to be a simulation.

No matter how many times I say it, and no matter how rational I may be, you're not going to accept the fact that I can have a valid opinion other than the one you have.

Explain how that option affects your gameplay at all? If you want it to be a 'pure' simulation, just don't use it. How does having it available for those lesser racers somehow taint your experience?

 

[KHarvey16]

The option to turn a mistake into a win with a shameless press of a button shouldn't even be anywhere outside the practice mode of any game trying to be a simulation.

No matter how many times I say it, and no matter how rational I may be, you're not going to accept the fact that I can have a valid opinion other than the one you have.

Why is it acceptable to allow restarting, ABS in cars that don't have it, automatic shifting in cars that don't have it(or simply automatic shifting in cars with a manual transmission), TCS, stability control and racing lines yet the ability to control where you restart is entirely unacceptable in anything attempting to be a simulator?

It's a completely arbitrary distinction. The same line of reasoning should not allow the features I just mentioned to exist in any game trying to call itself a simulator.

 

[eso76]

Freezing A.I. does't alter the fundamental mechanics of racing. You still have to get around the track. You just don't race anyone.

Let's be honest. All Forza 3 fans won't change their opinion about rewind (simply because it's in Forza 3). So I'll try to end the discussion right here.

GT already has frozen AI. what it lacks is the option to reheat it


And yeah, you're right. People can spend pages explaining why rewind can't be bad with perfectly reasonable arguments and the page after that will be full of "REWIND LOL!1" comments...simply because it's in forza 3.

 

[ResidentDante]

GT already has frozen AI. what it lacks is the option to reheat it

:lol

 

[antiloop]

Next step, adding some kind of rewind to multiplayer. If SP is fine, so should mp.


Official next gen cheats that are optional. <3

 

[cakefoo]

Explain how that option affects your gameplay at all? If you want it to be a 'pure' simulation, just don't use it. How does having it available for those lesser racers somehow taint your experience?

Because I WOULD use it if there were no penalties. If there's no penalty, why wouldn't I use it? I wouldn't accept my fate if I didn't have to, but I wouldn't complain if I had to, and I'd have a better sense of accomplishment. It's all an ethical issue, and apparently a cursed fanboy shit-slinging thread is not the forum for discussing it.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Next step, adding some kind of rewind to multiplayer. If SP is fine, so should mp.


Official next gen cheats that are optional. <3

Why the fuck isn't rewind a powerup in Mario Kart.

 

[Andronicus]

anyone got the post counts inhere?

i wish we could rewind this thread to just before rewind was brought up again and try something else

 

[cakefoo]

Why is it acceptable to allow restarting, ABS in cars that don't have it, automatic shifting in cars that don't have it(or simply automatic shifting in cars with a manual transmission), TCS, stability control and racing lines yet the ability to control where you restart is entirely unacceptable in anything attempting to be a simulator?

It's a completely arbitrary distinction. The same line of reasoning should not allow the features I just mentioned to exist in any game trying to call itself a simulator.

Allowing you to restart is probably more of a commercial guideline- you have no control over if you lost power, receive a phone call or invitation, remembered some errands you have to run- if the game forfeited that race you were in you'd be right to be upset because it took something from your and judged you based on something it couldn't know.

 

[Chrange]

Because I WOULD use it if there were no penalties. If there's no penalty, why wouldn't I use it? I wouldn't accept my fate if I didn't have to, but I wouldn't complain if I had to, and I'd have a better sense of accomplishment. It's all an ethical issue, and apparently a cursed fanboy shit-slinging thread is not the forum for discussing it.

There is a penalty, the loss of that sense of accomplishment. If it's all in your head anyway, where's the problem?

There's also the fact that rewinding means your leaderboard score is below anyone who finished it 'pure' - no matter how much slower they might be.

 

[KHarvey16]

Allowing you to restart is probably more of a commercial guideline- you have no control over if you lost power, receive a phone call or invitation, remembered some errands you have to run- if the game forfeited that race you were in you'd be right to be upset because it took something from your and judged you based on something it couldn't know.

But it's a simulation! To me, if the game just allows you to pause and screw around that isn't replicating the hardcore atmosphere of true racing. I don't want any part of your children's games.

Now, if you would use it and feel it ruins the experience, it's obvious that winning the race is more important to you than said experience otherwise there would be no problem. If the argument was motivated by your true feelings this contradiction wouldn't seem to exist.

 

[AFreak]

Why the fuck isn't rewind a powerup in Mario Kart.

Wii couldn't handle it.

 

[cakefoo]

There is a penalty, the loss of that sense of accomplishment. If it's all in your head anyway, where's the problem?

There's also the fact that rewinding means your leaderboard score is below anyone who finished it 'pure' - no matter how much slower they might be.

I would much rather there be an option before the race that disabled it and gave me a credit bonus at the end. Otherwise there's no gameplay balance.

 

[cakefoo]

But it's a simulation! To me, if the game just allows you to pause and screw around that isn't replicating the hardcore atmosphere of true racing. I don't want any part of your children's games.

Now, if you would use it and feel it ruins the experience, it's obvious that winning the race is more important to you than said experience otherwise there would be no problem. If the argument was motivated by your true feelings this contradiction wouldn't seem to exist.

After 19 clean laps and 35 minutes of time invested into a race, I mess up big time on a curve in the 20/20 lap. I could either restart the entire thing, or hit back and reap the rewards. I'm going to rewind because I'm not going to get a record time anyway, and I'd rather have the credits than not have them.

But if the game didn't have rewind in the first place, the temptation wouldn't be there, and if it was there and I didn't use it, the regret would be there.

 

[KHarvey16]

After 19 clean laps and 35 minutes of time invested into a race, I mess up big time on a curve in the 20/20 lap. I could either restart the entire thing, or hit back and reap the rewards. I'm going to rewind because I'm not going to get a record time anyway, and I'd rather have the credits than not have them.

But if the game didn't have rewind in the first place, the temptation wouldn't be there, and if it was there and I didn't use it, the regret would be there.

Then again, you are motivated by winning more than you are motivated by the tension of a simulated race.

 

[jakonovski]

Eurogamer/Digital Foundry has an article on the Forza3 demo: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-tech-analysis-forza-3-demo

A note to all the fanboys: this is how sane people assess the graphical merits of a game.

 

[Dabanton]

anyone got the post counts inhere?

KHarvey16 128
Interfectum 127
theignoramus 99
XiaNaphryz 79
jett 74
BenjaminBirdie 73
Doc Evils 69
Firewire 66

These are the top posters in this thread.

 

[mrklaw]

I think we should stop talking about rewind. It seems we agree to disagree. There are the sane people saying 'its an option' and 'you don't need to use it' and 'GT has stability control etc etc'; then there is the opposite view that dismissing it offhand (doesn't seem a particularly well thought out argument, but there you go)

Its not moving forward so can we move on?

 

[KHarvey16]

Eurogamer/Digital Foundry has an article on the Forza3 demo: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-tech-analysis-forza-3-demo

A note to all the fanboys: this is how sane people assess the graphical merits of a game.

That's a good read, nice to see some sanity.

 

[Dina]

After 19 clean laps and 35 minutes of time invested into a race, I mess up big time on a curve in the 20/20 lap. I could either restart the entire thing, or hit back and reap the rewards. I'm going to rewind because I'm not going to get a record time anyway, and I'd rather have the credits than not have them.

But if the game didn't have rewind in the first place, the temptation wouldn't be there, and if it was there and I didn't use it, the regret would be there.

Because I WOULD use it if there were no penalties. If there's no penalty, why wouldn't I use it? I wouldn't accept my fate if I didn't have to, but I wouldn't complain if I had to, and I'd have a better sense of accomplishment. It's all an ethical issue, and apparently a cursed fanboy shit-slinging thread is not the forum for discussing it.

All you're admitting to is your own weakness.

Not saying I am any better, but at least I am at peace with rewinding in the 20/20 lap. Or the 1/20th lap btw.

 

[cakefoo]

All you're admitting to is your own weakness.

Not saying I am any better, but at least I am at peace with rewinding in the 20/20 lap. Or the 1/20th lap btw.

I'd be a square to go, "For honor and integrity!" and finish the race in last place. If it wasn't an option period, I'd feel better about accepting my fate, because there be fate and there's nothing you can do about it.

People are acting like I'm saying that rewinding itself is the problem, but really if you want to explore the ins and outs of it you just need to look at the fundamentals of gaming to know everyone shouldn't be surprised at the mixed reactions, and should stop labeling people for having a viewpoint that's different than their own.

 

[jakonovski]

I'd be a square to go, "For honor and integrity!" and finish the race in last place. If it wasn't an option period, I'd feel better about accepting my fate, because there be fate and there's nothing you can do about it.

People are acting like I'm saying that rewinding itself is the problem, but really if you want to explore the ins and outs of it you just need to look at the fundamentals of gaming to know everyone shouldn't be surprised at the mixed reactions, and should stop labeling people for having a viewpoint that's different than their own.

It's hard to take that viewpoint seriously when it's almost without fail attached to a Gran Turismo branded billyclub. Of course they have that "viewpoint", if it's not in a GT game it sucks. Lamborghinis and Ferraris used to suck for these people.

 

[cakefoo]

It's hard to take that viewpoint seriously when it's almost without fail attached to a Gran Turismo branded billyclub. Of course they have that "viewpoint", if it's not in a GT game it sucks. Lamborghinis and Ferraris used to suck for these people.

If that's the only reason it's hard to take my viewpoint seriously, I think that only further validates what I've said.

 

[Stop It]

To anyone who is saying that rewind is a good feature:

Would you still be supporting the idea is it was a feature universal to ALL games? After all, who needs checkpoints and saves, or health packs when all mistakes can be rectified by a quick press of a button!

Well, I for one, oppose the idea, it cheapens the experience immensely. At least in GRID you got bonus rep for not using it (And the assists) but it still is a feature I don't want to see spread, as it just further confirms the current gamers mentality of instant, and increasingly easy gratification.

 

[jakonovski]

If that's the only reason it's hard to take my viewpoint seriously, I think that only further validates what I've said.

Having a preference like that is valid for you as a person, but from any objective viewpoint it makes no sense to strip features from a game to placate such esoteric and arbitrary needs.

 

[jakonovski]

To anyone who is saying that rewind is a good feature:

Would you still be supporting the idea is it was a feature universal to ALL games? After all, who needs checkpoints and saves, or health packs when all mistakes can be rectified by a quick press of a button!

Well, I for one, oppose the idea, it cheapens the experience immensely, at least in GRID you got bonus rep for not using it (And the assists) but it still is a feature I don't want to see spread, as it just further confirms the current gamers mentality of instant, and increasingly easy gratification.

That'd be awesome. The more malleable the game, the better (PoP's rewind is the best thing since sliced bread). A simple fix to your fears would be to make save/load/rewind mechanics a choice before you start a new game.

I say this as someone who played through Splosion Man and wondered why everyone thinks some levels are unfair.

 

[Supaman223]

I cant believe this rewind bullshit is still going on...

 

[cakefoo]

That'd be awesome. The more malleable the game, the better (PoP's rewind is the best thing since sliced bread). A simple fix to your fears would be to make save/load/rewind mechanics a choice before you start a new game.

I say this as someone who played through Splosion Man and wondered why everyone thinks some levels are unfair.

Some of the criticisms leveled at POP were that it was too easy... I never played it, but I assume they were referring to the fact you could rewind.

 

[Stop It]

That'd be awesome. The more malleable the game, the better. A simple fix to your fears would be to make save/load/rewind mechanics a choice before you start a new game.

No, it really wouldn't.

Gamers are meant to challenge you mentally, make you think about how you play and what you do. Rewind just means you can take stupid risks with zero consequences, in this case it means you know the limits of your car are meaningless, you can do what the hell you like and a few seconds later, you're back in the game!

Also, to people who say it's a good practice aid, I disagree again, as it promotes the exact opposite of good practice. When I practice in a racer, I start off safe and push until I reach the limits of the cars and my talent, with Rewind that simply isn't needed. All you would do is push too far immediately, go wrong, then moderate that behaviour, which totally removes the learning curve.

I can see why some gamers will enjoy the feature, but, maybe as a gamer for an era where games were there to kill you, repeatedly, the constant, irrevocable casualisation of games that purport to be "serious" entries in their genre is quite disheartening really.

 

[MGR]

I cant believe this rewind bullshit is still going on...

This thread has a rewind feature. Same shit over and over.

 

[Brashnir]

This forum has a rewind feature. Same shit over and over.

fixed.

 

[KHarvey16]

No, it really wouldn't.

Gamers are meant to challenge you mentally, make you think about how you play and what you do. Rewind just means you can take stupid risks with zero consequences, in this case it means you know the limits of your car are meaningless, you can do what the hell you like and a few seconds later, you're back in the game!

Also, to people who say it's a good practice aid, I disagree again, as it promotes the exact opposite of good practice. When I practice in a racer, I start off safe and push until I reach the limits of the cars and my talent, with Rewind that simply isn't needed. All you would do is push too far immediately, go wrong, then moderate that behaviour, which totally removes the learning curve.

I can see why some gamers will enjoy the feature, but, maybe as a gamer for an era where games were there to kill you, repeatedly, the constant, irrevocable casualisation of games that purport to be "serious" entries in their genre is quite disheartening really.

Why do you care how other people play their games? Rewinds inclusion in a racing game doesn't change how the game is made or played by anyone who isn't using it. If a platformer gave it as an option and didn't remove things like checkpoints or power ups, who cares? It doesn't matter to me one iota how you play your copy of the game. If I want to play without the benefit of rewinding, somehow I will manage to do that.

 

[Brashnir]

Why do you care how other people play their games? Rewinds inclusion in a racing game doesn't change how the game is made or played by anyone who isn't using it. If a platformer gave it as an option and didn't remove things like checkpoints or power ups, who cares? It doesn't matter to me one iota how you play your copy of the game. If I want to play without the benefit of rewinding, somehow I will manage to do that.

I posted something similar in a thread about quicksaves, and I'll post the same thoughts here.

For a lot of gamers, playing games is an exercise in overcoming challenges using the tools presented in the most efficient way possible. Having a tool at my disposal that makes a game too easy or unfun is a hallmark of bad game design. Forcing myself to not use a tool that the game designers included can also cheapen and/or undermine my own experience with a game

Game design is, at its heart, the art of providing obstacles and tools to the player. It shouldn't be a requirement that a person play a game "badly" (may also read: inefficiently) to have fun.

I'm not necessarily saying that Forza 3 is a bad game because of the rewind feature, but I can totally see where (some of) those who are complaining about it are coming from. Personally, with racing games I'm a little more lenient on this sort of thing, since the very nature of racing is a repetitive exercise, so I've been coming up with outside-the-rules ways to challenge myself in racers for years.

 

[Stop It]

Why do you care how other people play their games? Rewinds inclusion in a racing game doesn't change how the game is made or played by anyone who isn't using it. If a platformer gave it as an option and didn't remove things like checkpoints or power ups, who cares? It doesn't matter to me one iota how you play your copy of the game. If I want to play without the benefit of rewinding, somehow I will manage to do that.

The problem is, with all the bitching about Health Packs, Regen, Checkpoints, Saving in general, this could be a route that many developers DO go down, and not as an optional thing, so it would end up affecting me.

As I said, such a future would completely remove consequence from a gaming experience, no pitfall, enemy or obstacle will stop you, as the Rewind will be there to back you up at an instant.

As things stand, you're basically saying that giving the player an option to win a race instantly to see a nice pre-baked replay of a race they would like to see is OK because it doesn't affect me personally, which is a bit scary.

 

[KHarvey16]

For a lot of gamers, playing games is an exercise in overcoming challenges using the tools presented in the most efficient way possible. Having a tool at my disposal that makes a game too easy or unfun is a hallmark of bad game design. Forcing myself to not use a tool that the game designers included can also cheapen and/or undermine my own experience with a game

Game design is, at its heart, the art of providing obstacles and tools to the player. It shouldn't be a requirement that a person play a game "badly" (may also read: inefficiently) to have fun.

Is your experience cheapened by the existence of easier difficulty levels? I don't understand this argument at all. If the experience of playing the game without such features was the most important thing to you, you wouldn't use it. People saying they wouldn't be able to help themselves are obviously more interested in finishing the game than they are in having what they consider to be a better experience. There's no way around that.

 

[KHarvey16]

The problem is, with all the bitching about Health Packs, Regen, Checkpoints, Saving in general, this could be a route that many developers DO go down, and not as an optional thing, so it would end up affecting me.

As I said, such a future would completely remove consequence from a gaming experience, no pitfall, enemy or obstacle will stop you, as the Rewind will be there to back you up at an instant.

So your whole argument is based on the logical fallacy known as the slippery slope. Rewind is bad because, obviously, one day it will not be a choice. It's not a good argument.

As things stand, you're basically saying that giving the player an option to win a race instantly to see a nice pre-baked replay of a race they would like to see is OK because it doesn't affect me personally, which is a bit scary.

Huh? Rewind isn't an instant "I win" button. No matter how many times I rewind I still need to accomplish the goal.

Again, I'll ask you: as a consumer and not a designer, why do you care how other people play a game? What does it matter?

 

[Brashnir]

Is your experience cheapened by the existence of easier difficulty levels? I don't understand this argument at all. If the experience of playing the game without such features was the most important thing to you, you wouldn't use it. People saying they wouldn't be able to help themselves are obviously more interested in finishing the game than they are in having what they consider to be a better experience. There's no way around that.

Easier difficulties are simply a different set of (lesser) challenges to overcome with the same limited tool set. I can still use all the tools at my disposal to play the game as well and efficiently as possible. You've completely missed the point.

 

[KHarvey16]

Easier difficulties are simply a different set of (lesser) challenges to overcome with the same limited tool set. I can still use all the tools at my disposal to play the game as well and efficiently as possible. You've completely missed the point.

Are you saying there are no instances of an easier difficulty level providing the player with additional abilities or equipment?

Also, what is the difference between having access to a tool I don't use that could make the experience easier and having a difficulty level I don't use that will accomplish the exact same thing?

 

[eso76]

That's a good read, nice to see some sanity.

T10 claims and photomode backfired so much someone now likes to make the game sound like an ugly pos.
As it is, judging by the demo, Fm3 is still one of the best looking racers available, and certainly the best looking 60fps racer to come out this year. I would argue even GT5 superiority is only really apparent in replays, since PD game doesn't really look that spectacular ingame imho.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Huh? Rewind isn't an instant "I win" button. No matter how many times I rewind I still need to accomplish the goal.

I've said this same thing literally a hundred times and not one person has explained to me how I'm in any way wrong. They just keep trundling on against Rewind.

 

[SmokyDave]

I've said this same thing literally a hundred times and not one person has explained to me how I'm in any way wrong. They just keep trundling on against Rewind.

It's because they attempt to refute you, fail, then rewind and try again.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

It's because they attempt to refute you, fail, then rewind and try again.

Game. Set. Match.

 

[TheHeretic]

Because I pretty much suck at racing games the rewind feature is a godsend me for. Being on the final lap and then crashing into a wall makes me never want to play the game again. Thats just my opinion as a "casual" racer.

 

[mrklaw]

The problem is, with all the bitching about Health Packs, Regen, Checkpoints, Saving in general, this could be a route that many developers DO go down, and not as an optional thing, so it would end up affecting me.

As I said, such a future would completely remove consequence from a gaming experience, no pitfall, enemy or obstacle will stop you, as the Rewind will be there to back you up at an instant.

As things stand, you're basically saying that giving the player an option to win a race instantly to see a nice pre-baked replay of a race they would like to see is OK because it doesn't affect me personally, which is a bit scary.

frankly, as gaming expands, and gamers get older, and there are other things vying for their time and attention, you need a much wider range of 'difficulty' levels. These days I play games as much for 'entertainment' as 'challenge'.

If that is something you fundamentally disagree with, then fine. But if it is accepted that games can be entertainment as well as challenging, then you need a difficulty/challenge levle that is suitable for everyone. That means not preventing the user from seeing the content on the disc.

I paid for it, I want to see it. If that means turning the difficulty down so low that the bad guys only have popguns, I don't care. I want to enjoy the level design, the puzzles, the story (whole other thread there). Just because I complete it on 'super easy' mode doesn't affect *you* at all. Complete it on 'ultra leet' and feel satisfied.