proposition
Banned
Rewind is the destruction of gaming as we know it!
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35
- Thread starter bishoptl
- Start date
AdventureRacing
Member
So what do the people who hate the rewind feature think should be done? There are obviously 2 options:
1) leave it in
2) Take it out
Either way the people who don't like rewind can play the exact same way.
The only difference in scenario 2 is that those who would like the feature miss out.
1) leave it in
2) Take it out
Either way the people who don't like rewind can play the exact same way.
The only difference in scenario 2 is that those who would like the feature miss out.
theignoramus
Member
It's a matter of perception, genius. Your constant attempts to dismiss it as illegitimate ( at least in the context of your argument) annoy me.KHarvey16 said:
You could ask this question of any situation involving purists. What does it matter if a high end bottle of wine was packaged with a free sports mug and a set of plastic straws?! The inclusion of it is just an option that the consumer doesnt have to use, so what does it matter how others enjoy their wine?
CadetMahoney
Member
ppl still downplaying rewind feature as game-breaking lo
heh
proposition said:
heh
theignoramus said:
What a terrible example. That stuff would probably cost money and those buying the wine wouldn't want to pay for it. Here's a better one: a bottle of whine has traditionally been sold with a glass along with it. One year they package two glasses for the same price. The extra glass makes pouring/tasting/storing with/of said glass easier.
"OMG EASIER?! People may only drink wine in the manner and fashion I choose!"
jakonovski
Member
SmokyDave said:
Well actually, ESC is standard on most cars today. Even mine has it. But I agree that complaining about rewind is still ridiculous.
jakonovski
Member
SmokyDave said:
I just drove through torrential rain this morning, ESC came in handy.
theignoramus
Member
It wasnt. Not only did I mention that the added stuff would be free, I also mentioned it would be included with high end wine, which is very expensive to begin with, so claiming the objection would be due to a nonexistent price markup is absurd. The issue would be the perception of the product sacrificing its high brow image to make an appeal to the low brow consumer.KHarvey16 said:
It's good for endurance races. I sure as hell am not going to spend for more than one hour on any track. Unless they put a save system in (at pit stops).SmokyDave said:Definitely in GT4, it's called B-Spec. Doesn't seem to be present in GT
To race for 4 hours in GT4 without turning off the PS2 is madness.
achilles140
Banned
jakonovski said:
Digital Foundry sane?Richard Leadbetter? LOL...that guy is a fanboy if there has ever been one.
theignoramus
Member
You're not getting my point. You continue to counter every argument against the rewind button by stating "what does it matter how others play the game."KHarvey16 said:
I'm saying it's a matter of a negative perception, and that there's no sense in trying to dismiss that as an illegitimate response when the product in question is also making appeals to the purist.
jakonovski
Member
achilles140 said:
Thanks for your contribution, Bald Assertion Man!
jakonovski
Member
theignoramus said:
How on earth is any dev in the world supposed to take arbitrary negative perceptions into account?
"This game has blue cars. I hate blue cars. Therefore I can legitimately complain about the inclusion of blue cars in this game."
theignoramus said:
Any purist put off Forza for the rewind feature is in fact, a knob. If you are such a purist that you cannot bear the option being in a game, you ought to be outside racing real cars. This same purist presumably cannot buy GT5 as it has a racing line.
Basically, fuck purists. They want games to be tailored exactly to them and short of funding the development themselves, that ain't gonna happen.
Also, in your wine analogy, bundling the bottle with a beaker and straws would probably be seen as very cool and 'ironic' and hipsters would A; buy lots of the wine and B; drink it from the beakers.
SmokyDave said:
the crazy thing is that the purists *can* tailor the game how they like. Its the fact that others can tailor it how *they* like, and the possibilty that doesn't match the purist idea of how it should be that annoys them.
Yes, this argument is going around in a circle.
If you are a purist, thats fine. Knock yourself out. But the second you start forcing your opinions down the throat of others, criticising them for daring to think differently to you, you lose all credibility IMO.
Its not just GT, its not just games. In most hobbies/interests there are people like this.
theignoramus
Member
SmokyDave said:
Racing lines and blue cars don't impact the experience the way a rewind button does, the rewind button has more far reaching consequences on the way somebody races.
It's the reason why a restart button is included in most simulators and a "do over" button is included in only a few.
theignoramus said:
Yeah, it eventually makes them better leading to better competition online. It in no way affects online races and it doesn't affect leaderboards. It in no way affects anyone but the person rewinding who presumably, doesn't have a problem with it.
Also, how do you decide how much the rewind impacts the game in relation to the racing line? And how does this rule work for everybody?
Another comparison, same track same car:
http://www.gameswire.net/comparison...6-33584899_gran-turismo-5-prologue_stack.html
http://www.gameswire.net/comparison...6-33584899_gran-turismo-5-prologue_stack.html
Haunted
Member
GRID's risk vs reward system concerning rewind was pretty genius. Worked very well.
Forza's taking a bit more liberty with it, so I'm not really sure I like it as much... but the simple fact that it invalidates your lap time (putting you behind people not using rewind) is a good enough safety mechanism to stop the bitching, imo.
And Stop It - would you be opposed to an optional rewind feature in any game? Like, in the options before you start the singleplayer campaign of a given title, it would ask the player whether to enable rewind or not. I can't see a problem with such an implementation.
As usual, optional = win.
Forza's taking a bit more liberty with it, so I'm not really sure I like it as much... but the simple fact that it invalidates your lap time (putting you behind people not using rewind) is a good enough safety mechanism to stop the bitching, imo.
And Stop It - would you be opposed to an optional rewind feature in any game? Like, in the options before you start the singleplayer campaign of a given title, it would ask the player whether to enable rewind or not. I can't see a problem with such an implementation.
As usual, optional = win.
theignoramus said:
The rewind feature only creates a negative perception amongst the hardest of the hardcore. or the most insane of the fanboys. take your pick.
Besides, MS is trying to sell Forza as an approachable sim to appeal to a wide range of people. they're not trying to create an image of being the most difficult and hard to play sim out there.
Always-honest
Banned
smart thinking with the fence.. just wires.2real4tv said:
but they both look good or bad in some places. overall i like the more realistic lighting in GT5
and the less appearent jaggies. 60fps does make a difference though...
theignoramus said:
I'm getting your point and telling you that those arguing over purity are putting forth a stupid argument. It's so completely arbitrary that it becomes meaningless. "Racing lines, ABS, automatic gearbox, TCS, stability...all fine with me! But this rewind thing, that's an abomination."
Purists can NOT PRESS THE BUTTON. Surely their large heads can accomplish that much.
theignoramus said:
wait......
so...
ok, so you're against the inclusion of rewind because of perception?
but, what about gameplay and the fact that it made me a better racer? i don't play perception....
if this is what the debate has come to then under the law of sanity you just lost. like honestly, at this point it sounds like you're just spouting madness. but that's just my gameplay. i mean perception.
shpankey
not an idiot
I find it ironic you keep harping about how he's not respecting your opinion while at the same time you are arguing how your way to play should be the only option. And then this analogy, where you're basically arguing how the high brow consumer is wronged, but you don't look at it from the low brow consumer's viewpoint. Basically, you want everything your elitist way, and when argued against you claim your view or opinion isn't respected and at the same time do the very thing yourself.theignoramus said:
It was said before but it warrants a rewind. We can either have the option, and you are satiated or not have the option and others will get it their way. The difference only being in that with the latter, you can actually still play the game your way. Pure. You can refrain from partaking of the rewind waters. You can even still claim superiority being that your leaderboard times will not be tainted, everyone will know you did it without rewind. Versus you having your way and everyone who wants it will be left in the cold. Newcomers who find sims to daunting will still hate them and people who are racers like myself who only use it as a tool to better their overall lap times by using it in practice will just not have the option at all. Which is what you want. Not what we want. So it all comes down to making us play the game your way. Because of course, you know what's best for the rest of us. Nobody from the other side gives two shits about how you play it, use it or don't, no matter.
One potential effect rewind could have on people who never use it us corruption of the leaderboards. I understand that if you use rewind your time won't qualify, but I'm not sure that it still won't have an effect.
Let's say that Bob is a purist who refuses to use rewind in racing sims and Tom always uses rewind when he makes a sizable mistake. It seems probable that Tom would drive more aggressively than Bob while racing, seeing as he has no fear of wrecking out of a race due to his reliance on the rewind function. Not often, but every once in awhile, Tom is going to have a lucky run where he drives aggressively and doesn't need to use the rewind button, and his time would be posted to the leader board. Bob, on the other hand, would drive in more controlled manner because he doesn't use rewind and would be at a disadvantage when pitted against an aggressive driver like Tom. There are two separate sets of consequences for Bob and Tom. The playing field is not level.
I think ideally you'd choose before the race whether or not you wanted to attempt to qualify for the leaderboard. If you choose yes, rewind is disabled, if you choose no, you can have your rewind functionality available.
Let's say that Bob is a purist who refuses to use rewind in racing sims and Tom always uses rewind when he makes a sizable mistake. It seems probable that Tom would drive more aggressively than Bob while racing, seeing as he has no fear of wrecking out of a race due to his reliance on the rewind function. Not often, but every once in awhile, Tom is going to have a lucky run where he drives aggressively and doesn't need to use the rewind button, and his time would be posted to the leader board. Bob, on the other hand, would drive in more controlled manner because he doesn't use rewind and would be at a disadvantage when pitted against an aggressive driver like Tom. There are two separate sets of consequences for Bob and Tom. The playing field is not level.
I think ideally you'd choose before the race whether or not you wanted to attempt to qualify for the leaderboard. If you choose yes, rewind is disabled, if you choose no, you can have your rewind functionality available.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
theignoramus said:
What the hell? I've never seen a racing/braking line in real life. And they make racing games much easier because you use them at every turn, whereas someone would presumably only rewind once or twice a race.
shpankey
not an idiot
I would be interested in seeing of who in this thread, who's arguing against rewind, has took the stance in the past defending no damage in the GT series. For we all know the argument against damage, how one should just drive better and not wreck, but now in rewind it taints the game because the ability to rewind covers up a mistake. In the GT series before, one didn't need rewind b/c the mistakes had no real consequences. Just bounce off the rails, through the corners and on your way. Hell, you may have even lowered your lap time.
Shurs said:
They have them for pretty much every race, but I'm not sure who pays much attention to the ones with traffic involved. Regardless, getting ahead of other cars quickly and without making contact is everyone's objective. If driving aggressively nets the best times, believe me, people interested in placing high on the leaderboard will do just that.