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[Duelist]

One potential effect rewind could have on people who never use it us corruption of the leaderboards. I understand that if you use rewind your time won't qualify, but I'm not sure that it still won't have an effect.

Let's say that Bob is a purist who refuses to use rewind in racing sims and Tom always uses rewind when he makes a sizable mistake. It seems probable that Tom would drive more aggressively than Bob while racing, seeing as he has no fear of wrecking out of a race due to his reliance on the rewind function. Not often, but every once in awhile, Tom is going to have a lucky run where he drives aggressively and doesn't need to use the rewind button, and his time would be posted to the leader board. Bob, on the other hand, would drive in more controlled manner because he doesn't use rewind and would be at a disadvantage when pitted against an aggressive driver like Tom. There are two separate sets of consequences for Bob and Tom. The playing field is not level.

I think ideally you'd choose before the race whether or not you wanted to attempt to qualify for the leaderboard. If you choose yes, rewind is disabled, if you choose no, you can have your rewind functionality available.

If Tom has a capability of performing a "lucky run" every once in a while that puts him on the leaderboards, chances are he must be a skilled driver whether he uses rewind or not.
It really isn't that possible to get lucky considering the amount of variables involved in posting a competitive lap time.

This situation is too hypothetical because it doesn't take into account any measure of skill, which is what really contributes to a lap time.

 

[AndyD]

Gaf desperately needs a Lexis-Nexis database lookup feature.

LOL.

I was actually looking for a plugin for forums of some sort where I can tag users and posts. Not in a ranking/rep type of way as other forums have, but as a personal, just for me type of thing.

Is there such a thing? Lik taking notes in a forum?

 

[Shurs]

They have them for pretty much every race, but I'm not sure who pays much attention to the ones with traffic involved. Regardless, getting ahead of other cars quickly and without making contact is everyone's objective. If driving aggressively nets the best times, believe me, people interested in placing high on the leaderboard will do just that.

The argument for rewind is that people don't want to have to restart a race because they made one mistake 20 laps into a race. Do you honestly think that, twenty laps into a race, someone who refuses to use rewind will be driving as aggressively as a person who will use rewind?

 

[LCfiner]

LOL.

I was actually looking for a plugin for forums of some sort where I can tag users and posts. Not in a ranking/rep type of way as other forums have, but as a personal, just for me type of thing.

Is there such a thing? Lik taking notes in a forum?

You'll want to ask Astrolad about that. he has a system.

Spoiler

Or does he????

 

[KHarvey16]

The argument for rewind is that people don't want to have to restart a race because they made one mistake 20 laps into a race. Do you honestly think that, twenty laps into a race, someone who refuses to use rewind will be driving as aggressively as a person who will use rewind?

I don't think anyone is really interested in setting leader board times in an endurance race.

 

[SmokyDave]

The argument for rewind is that people don't want to have to restart a race because they made one mistake 20 laps into a race. Do you honestly think that, twenty laps into a race, someone who refuses to use rewind will be driving as aggressively as a person who will use rewind?

Why does it matter? Are you obsessively checking 20 lap race leaderboards? If he uses rewind, he'll be at the bottom. If he doesn't, he achieved his time with skill. How on earth can you care about this?

Time trial, single lap. That's all that matters. Nobody cares if you finished a 20 lap race in 45:12.

 

[Shurs]

If Tom has a capability of performing a "lucky run" every once in a while that puts him on the leaderboards, chances are he must be a skilled driver whether he uses rewind or not.
It really isn't that possible to get lucky considering the amount of variables involved in posting a competitive lap time.

This situation is too hypothetical because it doesn't take into account any measure of skill, which is what really contributes to a lap time.

You don't think that people get lucky every once in awhile while playing games?

If we were both playing a no respawn match in SOCOM but I alone had the option to respawn I'd probably play more aggressively than you. Every now and then, I might not die and therefore not have to use my respawn, but that doesn't mean that we're on a level playing field.

 

[Shurs]

I don't think anyone is really interested in setting leader board times in an endurance race.

Some people are. And this shows how rewind can effect those people who choose not to use it.

 

[ShapeGSX]

They have them for pretty much every race, but I'm not sure who pays much attention to the ones with traffic involved. Regardless, getting ahead of other cars quickly and without making contact is everyone's objective. If driving aggressively nets the best times, believe me, people interested in placing high on the leaderboard will do just that.

If I remember correctly, the Forza 2 leaderboards marked the laps where you drafted someone, because that leads to an unfair advantage in a hot lap.

 

[SmokyDave]

Some people are. And this shows how rewind can effect those people who choose not to use it.

You're grasping at straws. This extremely unlikely hypothetical scenario does not justify removing the option.

 

[KHarvey16]

Some people are. And this shows how rewind can effect those people who choose not to use it.

Not really. If the persons motivation is to finish the race, they'll drive how they normally drive to accomplish that. If they intend to get a good time on the leaderboard they'll try to turn a lap as fast as they can. And really, it just means they have so many laps to set a good time. They could be satisfied with their time on lap 4 or something.

In addition to all that, anyone capable of setting a top time would be VERY good at whatever track they're on. No scrub driving like an idiot will get lucky and displace them.

 

[Shurs]

You're grasping at straws. This extremely unlikely hypothetical scenario does not justify removing the option.

I'm not calling for the removal of rewind. I'm just calling bullshit on those who say that it has no effect on the people who don't want rewind in their game.

For rewind not to effect those who don't use it, Turn 10 would have to make a person choose before they raced whether or not the wanted they wanted their time to qualify for the leaderboard. If they choose yes, there would be no option for rewind. If they choose no, they can rewind all the love long day.

 

[shpankey]

People who want to be atop of leaderboards will push the limits, regardless of a rewind feature. The very nature of making a best lap time requires this. If you are hotlapping, you are going to push everything to the limit. If you are playing it safe, you won't. The two idea's don't mix together at all. I've yet to meet a gaming hotlapper who even thinks this way. I could see this in real life, but as we know, there's no rewind in real life and there's also very very realistic damage.

 

[mrklaw]

You don't think that people get lucky every once in awhile while playing games?

If we were both playing a no respawn match in SOCOM but I alone had the option to respawn I'd probably play more aggressively than you. Every now and then, I might not die and therefore not have to use my respawn, but that doesn't mean that we're on a level playing field.

how often is once in a while? Perhaps he starts putting in more and more solid laps because rewind is helping him find the limits of the car?

It is perhaps something that should be switched off when in full simulation mode, or needs to be turned off to qualify for the top leaderboards.

 

[SmokyDave]

People who want to be atop of leaderboards will push the limits, regardless of a rewind feature. The very nature of making a best lap time requires this. If you are hotlapping, you are going to push everything to the limit. If you are playing it safe, you won't. The two idea's don't mix together at all. I've yet to meet a gaming hotlapper who even thinks this way. I could see this in real life, but as we know, there's no rewind in real life and there's also very very realistic damage.

Precisely good sir. Allow me to rewind and re-post my first comments on the subject...

I prefer to think of circuits as an entire lap and not just a procession of corners so I wouldn't use rewind. I think perfecting the entire lap is the key to success. Wiping out on one corner and ruining your time (especially if you'd made up time prior to that point) just encourages you to try harder next time around.

That is the mentality of the hotlapper.

 

[Shurs]

People who want to be atop of leaderboards will push the limits, regardless of a rewind feature. The very nature of making a best lap time requires this. If you are hotlapping, you are going to push everything to the limit. If you are playing it safe, you won't. The two idea's don't mix together at all. I've yet to meet a gaming hotlapper who even thinks this way. I could see this in real life, but as we know, there's no rewind in real life and there's also very very realistic damage.

So, there are only leaderboards for laps? Or are there leaderboards for long races as well?

 

[Duelist]

You don't think that people get lucky every once in awhile while playing games?

If we were both playing a no respawn match in SOCOM but I alone had the option to respawn I'd probably play more aggressively than you. Every now and then, I might not die and therefore not have to use my respawn, but that doesn't mean that we're on a level playing field.

I have to ask, do you play simulation racers at all? If it's one thing that's known in sim racers is the people hitting the leaderboard are the people who are consistently posting top times and are shaving every last millisecond off their time. Nowhere will you see someone, who consistently would need to use rewind, get lucky and hit the leaderboard. You're really grasping here.

Also, let me assure you that a comparison to a game where you're directly playing against one other human where your chances at winning is not a fair one.

 

[Woz]

The boredom scale is reaching over 9000 in this thread, please do something!

 

[Shurs]

I have to ask, do you play simulation racers at all? If it's one thing that's known in sim racers is the people hitting the leaderboard are the people who are consistently posting top times and are shaving every last millisecond off their time. Nowhere will you see someone, who consistently would need to use rewind, get lucky and hit the leaderboard. You're really grasping here.

Also, let me assure you that a comparison to a game where you're directly playing against one other human where your chances at winning is not a fair one.

Does the leaderboard only go to 100 or something? I assume it keeps track of, and ranks, all qualifying times.

 

[Firewire]

I don't think anyone is really interested in setting leader board times in an endurance race.

Wait, what, sorry?

 

[SmokyDave]

Does the leaderboard only go to 100 or something? I assume it keeps track of, and ranks, all qualifying times.

You missed his point. Someone that needs / uses rewind will be nowhere near the top of the leaderboard. The difference between #1 and #1000 can be 0.1 second. You don't get this close to the top unless you're damn good.

Even if it ranks EVERYONE the rewinders will be down with the scrubs, even on a good lap.

 

[KHarvey16]

Wait, what, sorry?

Meaning, an endurance race encountered on a playthrough of your career. I'm sure people will go and load it up, not with the intention of merely finishing, but getting a good time. Someone looking to set a good time will drive as fast as they can no matter if they plan to use rewind or not.

 

[Shurs]

You missed his point. Someone that needs / uses rewind will be nowhere near the top of the leaderboard. The difference between #1 and #1000 can be 0.1 second. You don't get this close to the top unless you're damn good.

Even if it ranks EVERYONE the rewinders will be down with the scrubs, even on a good lap.

If a rewinder ranks 40,000th and I rank 40,001 but don't use rewind, it does effect me.

The argument put forth by many was that rewind doesn't effect those who don't use it. I'm proving that it does.

 

[KHarvey16]

I'm proving that it does.

Proving?

 

[ShapeGSX]

If a rewinder ranks 40,000th and I rank 40,001 but don't use rewind, it does effect me.

The argument put forth by many was that rewind doesn't effect those who don't use it. I'm proving that it does.

That won't happen. A lap with a rewind will always be ranked below a clean lap, period. Even if the rewind lap is faster.

If you are trying to post laps on the leaderboard in the demo, this is pretty obvious stuff. You have to have a clean lap to matter on the leaderboard.

 

[SmokyDave]

If a rewinder ranks 40,000th and I rank 40,001 but don't use rewind, it does effect me.

The argument put forth by many was that rewind doesn't effect those who don't use it. I'm proving that it does.

If he is ahead then he won't have used rewind.

Edit: Beaten like a guy that used rewind

 

[sneaky77]

If a rewinder ranks 40,000th and I rank 40,001 but don't use rewind, it does effect me.

As explained a million times already... if its not a clean lap, meaning you go off the track, use rewing, crash, then you are at the bottom of the board... all clean times go first, even if its slower than a time that used rewind..

 

[Rad Agast]

Allowing you to restart is probably more of a commercial guideline- you have no control over if you lost power, receive a phone call or invitation, remembered some errands you have to run- if the game forfeited that race you were in you'd be right to be upset because it took something from your and judged you based on something it couldn't know.

So the Pause option is out of all sim racers eh?

 

[Shurs]

That won't happen. A lap with a rewind will always be ranked below a clean lap, period. Even if the rewind lap is faster.

If you are trying to post laps on the leaderboard in the demo, this is pretty obvious stuff. You have to have a clean lap to matter on the leaderboard.

Everyone that plays the game is looking to set a good time. People who use rewind will drive more aggressively than someone who doesn't use it. Most of the time they'll use rewind, negating their chance to score on the leaderboard, but every once in awhile someone will get lucky and not have to use rewind, even though they're driving like they're planning on using it. Their score will post to the leaderboard.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

Please at the people trying to spin rewind as a bad thing, gimme a break can't you find constructive to do in another thread because your argument is totally asinine.

 

[KHarvey16]

Everyone that plays the game is looking to set a good time. People who use rewind will drive more aggressively than someone who doesn't use it. Most of the time they'll use rewind, negating their chance to score on the leaderboard, but every once in awhile someone will get lucky and not have to use rewind, even though they're driving like they're planning on using it. Their score will post to the leaderboard.

And perhaps I will be bitten by a spider that gives me super forza powers. And this cool web thing.

Seriously man, it's not gonna happen. If someone who usually uses rewind gets a decent time on the leaderboards it's because he's good. Luck will not make a slow lap fast.

 

[Firewire]

Meaning, an endurance race encountered on a playthrough of your career. I'm sure people will go and load it up, not with the intention of merely finishing, but getting a good time. Someone looking to set a good time will drive as fast as they can no matter if they plan to use rewind or not.

Personally I choose my spots for speed or where I may be more aggressive. I never push harder in the tighter sections because I know a screw up will set me back, or even ruin the race for me. In an endurance race especially you have to be smart. But if you have this rewind you can gamble at every corner because there really isn't any consequences in the career mode is there?

I'm waiting for the first video on You Tube where someone spams the shit out of the rewind! Fuck up the start use rewind, screw up that pass use rewind, took that corner to hot its ok use rewind, damn I couldn't make the pass in the final stretch to get top spot...fuck it I'll use rewind over and over till I get it!

I still want to know how this is going to make anybody a better sim driver.

 

[Shurs]

And perhaps I will be bitten by a spider that gives me super forza powers. And this cool web thing.

Seriously man, it's not gonna happen. If someone who usually uses rewind gets a decent time on the leaderboards it's because he's good. Luck will not make a slow lap fast.

You seriously don't think that someone can have a lucky run every once in awhile? Add to that that they're driving more aggressively than they would if they'd have to restart the race. It will effect people who don't use rewind. It may only effect low level racers, but it will effect some people.

 

[Firewire]

Please at the people trying to spin rewind as a bad thing, gimme a break can't you find constructive to do in another thread because your argument is totally asinine.

The argument is about racing in these two games, one has this feature that can effect the outcome of a race, what better place to talk about it?

 

[AndyD]

I understand how rewind affects leaderboards and it makes sense. It would be better if rewind laps just were not on the boards at all (less bitching).

But what I see as the bigger issue is the unlocking of cars or getting prizes/rewards using rewind. If say car #345 is only available as a prize for getting 1st place on a 50 lap endurance race.

And someone with less skill uses rewind to win that race and get that car. And someone else with more skill does not use rewind and actually wins that race and gets the car.

When they meet online to play against each other, the main thing that shows your "quality" as a driver is the cars you have unlocked. Yet they both show up to an online race with the same car and their skill levels are different and the circumstances of winning that same car are different.

That is why I think rewind is a great idea for practice, for warmup, for setting up a car, for perfecting a corner or series of corners, but it should have no place in actual races. I dont know if its available in these races, but I think it should not be.

But when it comes to unlocking stuff, getting prizes, currency and whatnot rewind should be out.

 

[KHarvey16]

Personally I choose my spots for speed or where I may be more aggressive. I never push harder in the tighter sections because I know a screw up will set me back, or even ruin the race for me. In an endurance race especially you have to be smart. But if you have this rewind you can gamble at every corner because there really isn't any consequences in the career mode is there?

And can I ask how many top times do you posses currently? No one sitting at the top of the leader board got lucky or stumbled into it. They drove flat out with no fear of consequences because that's the only way to do it.

Again, though...why do you care what someone does in their career mode?

I'm waiting for the first video on You Tube where someone spams the shit out of the rewind! Fuck up the start use rewind, screw up that pass use rewind, took that corner to hot its ok use rewind, damn I couldn't make the pass in the final stretch to get top spot...fuck it I'll use rewind over and over till I get it!

What would be the point of that video, exactly?

I still want to know how this is going to make anybody a better sim driver.

If used in a structured way to practice how could it not?

 

[jaypah]

You seriously don't think that someone can have a lucky run every once in awhile? Add to that that they're driving more aggressively than they would if they'd have to restart the race. It will effect people who don't use rewind. It may only effect low level racers, but it will effect some people.

sorry to hear that man.


maybe try racing more aggressively?

 

[KHarvey16]

You seriously don't think that someone can have a lucky run every once in awhile? Add to that that they're driving more aggressively than they would if they'd have to restart the race. It will effect people who don't use rewind. It may only effect low level racers, but it will effect some people.

Why do you keep equating aggressive driving with good times? Either someone is good or they aren't. If someone is trying to be fast they will try to be fast. You're argument is making less sense the more its discussed.

 

[jaypah]

What would be the point of that video, exactly?
?

it's like all of those cool speed-run videos that we watch where the guy keeps spamming the save state button. oh wait....

 

[tinfoilhatman]

The argument is about racing in these two games, one has this feature that can effect the outcome of a race, what better place to talk about it?

Seriously Yes a race played by yourself that has zero impact on online leader boards or anything outside of your own head.

If your trying to spin it as a bad thing then yes, thats like telling Microsoft that adding software\features to windows for free is a bad thing.

 

[shpankey]

Everyone that plays the game is looking to set a good time. People who use rewind will drive more aggressively than someone who doesn't use it. Most of the time they'll use rewind, negating their chance to score on the leaderboard, but every once in awhile someone will get lucky and not have to use rewind, even though they're driving like they're planning on using it. Their score will post to the leaderboard.

You think people who don't use rewind are somehow immune to mistakes? The only difference in your argument is they make mistakes and simply restart the race and try again. They are pushing it just as hard as a rewinder. Because like I said, hotlappers have that mentality. You don't shave of .01 of a second off your best lap time in order to move to the top by being cautious. They are pushing it every bit as hard, if not harder, than anyone else. It is absolutely required. That .01 can be literally a thousand places lower on the leaderboard. They are not thinking "oh I will play it safe here cause I have such a huge lead". We are talking minuscule fractions of a second better, and in order to do that, they have to push it and drive with great skill.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

You missed his point. Someone that needs / uses rewind will be nowhere near the top of the leaderboard. The difference between #1 and #1000 can be 0.1 second. You don't get this close to the top unless you're damn good.

Even if it ranks EVERYONE the rewinders will be down with the scrubs, even on a good lap.

It should be reiterated, there are TWO sets of leaderboards. Rewind instantly puts you on the lower decks.

 

[jakonovski]

Everyone that plays the game is looking to set a good time. People who use rewind will drive more aggressively than someone who doesn't use it. Most of the time they'll use rewind, negating their chance to score on the leaderboard, but every once in awhile someone will get lucky and not have to use rewind, even though they're driving like they're planning on using it. Their score will post to the leaderboard.

Are you serious?

 

[Yoritomo]

You don't think that people get lucky every once in awhile while playing games?

Not in a sim. When you're hotlapping you're making conscious decisions on turn in point, braking point, throttle control, steering angle, having any 1 of those variables off for an instant adds precious time to your lap. There are far more variables than simply hitting something or not hitting something. You can't get some crazy fast hotlap by accident. You have to drive. When you're improving your times they improve by mere tenths of a second as you learn the proper way of controlling that car through the course.

 

[Shurs]

Why do you keep equating aggressive driving with good times? Either someone is good or they aren't. If someone is trying to be fast they will try to be fast. You're argument is making less sense the more its discussed.

By aggressive driving I mean taking turns at a faster speed than you would if you had to restart the race because you wrecked your car. Is it really that hard for you to understand?

 

[Omar Ismail]

I think we can put the rewind issue to bed. As I said at the beginning. Anybody that's against it is a moron and the last few pages only proves that out.

Next feature: matchmaking in multiplayer.

Any game that is released now and to the future that doesn't have a lobby+hopper+mathmaking system is a failure from an online perspective.

Kudos to Dirt 2 for leading the way and F3 for continuing the torch. I don't know if GT5 will meet the standard, anybody know?

 

[SmokyDave]

It should be reiterated, there are TWO sets of leaderboards. Rewind instantly puts you on the lower decks.

Sorry, I did know that. This nonsense is shaving points off my IQ with every passing post.

 

[KHarvey16]

By aggressive driving I mean taking turns at a faster speed than you would if you had to restart the race because you wrecked your car. Is it really that hard for you to understand?

Yes, it is. Because the argument doesn't make sense to anyone who actually plays these games.

 

[Firewire]

And can I ask how many top times do you posses currently? No one sitting at the top of the leader board got lucky or stumbled into it. They drove flat out with no fear of consequences because that's the only way to do it.

Again, though...why do you care what someone does in their career mode?



What would be the point of that video, exactly?



If used in a structured way to practice how could it not?

So wrong, but hey maybe you drive like that? You really think people drive flat out to get top times? Its about using the best lines so you can keep speed in corners and reducing the need to brake, timing acceleration out of corners and stuff.

I don't really care, but its like AndyD mentioned, people will use it for progression in the game, to get cars unlocked when they didn't deserve to progress or didn't deserve to unlock a car. Its a cheat if you can use it for these purposes.

Does there have to be a point to the video? Fuck look at what people put up on You Tube every day!

But will they only use it in a practice? Once you know its there people will be tempted to use it more and more.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

By aggressive driving I mean taking turns at a faster speed than you would if you had to restart the race because you wrecked your car. Is it really that hard for you to understand?

Skilled drivers are aggressive by nature. They'd be pushing their cars to the limit for any given track regardless of any rewind feature or not in any game. I don't see the argument.

So wrong, but hey maybe you drive like that? You really think people drive flat out to get top times? Its about using the best lines so you can keep speed in corners and reducing the need to brake, timing acceleration out of corners and stuff.

You really think a driver can't be aggressive and still do all of that skillfully? :lol