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[jakonovski]

By aggressive driving I mean taking turns at a faster speed than you would if you had to restart the race because you wrecked your car. Is it really that hard for you to understand?

That doesn't make any sense. At all. The first rule of holes, man.

 

[SmokyDave]

Yes, it is. Because the argument doesn't make sense to anyone who actually plays these games.

Particularly when you bear in mind that the edge of traction and optimal grip is identical whether you rewind or not. This notion of 'Aggressive Driving' is bollocks. Ask anyone at the top, it's about smooth, measured and calculated driving, not aggressively panning round like a hooligan.

Also, this morbid fear of rewinders unlocking cool cars seems odd to me. Assuming you end up facing them online (where there is no rewind) why are you bothered about them having the same car as you?

 

[jakonovski]

I don't really care, but its like AndyD mentioned, people will use it for progression in the game, to get cars unlocked when they didn't deserve to progress or didn't deserve to unlock a car. Its a cheat if you can use it for these purposes.

Since when did you become the authority of who does and does not deserve to unlock cars in racing games?

 

[Yoritomo]

By aggressive driving I mean taking turns at a faster speed than you would if you had to restart the race because you wrecked your car. Is it really that hard for you to understand?

Corner exit speed > just taking a corner faster. If you're wrecking IN a corner you can't drive worth crap anyway and aren't going to be posting a fast time. You're coming closest to the edge on corner exit as you're transitioning to full throttle while widening the angle on your turning arc to have the highest possible corner exit speed.

I interpret driving aggressively as driving sloppily. Skittering around corners cause you came in too hot. You get fast by driving methodically and precisely. You can't do that by accident because it feels counterintuitive to a novice.

 

[KHarvey16]

So wrong, but hey maybe you drive like that? You really think people drive flat out to get top times? Its about using the best lines so you can keep speed in corners and reducing the need to brake, timing acceleration out of corners and stuff.

I don't really care, but its like AndyD mentioned, people will use it for progression in the game, to get cars unlocked when they didn't deserve to progress or didn't deserve to unlock a car. Its a cheat if you can use it for these purposes.

Does there have to be a point to the video? Fuck look at what people put up on You Tube every day!

But will they only use it in a practice? Once you know its there people will be tempted to use it more and more.

I love it when opponents in a debate do my job for me. Thanks guys, and keep up the good work.

 

[jaypah]

thread got interesting again. i'm enjoying this little back and forth y'all got going on. continue.

 

[-viper-]

Yay for sales.

You don't applaud effort as well as results?

I think the most pertinent point here is that you have 33 posts in this thread, 220 or so in the GT5 one and 20 in the Forza 3 one.

And your point is..?

I simply responded to what you said. You said GT is only for the hardcore. Clearly it isn't since it has sold so many copies.

 

[shpankey]

So wrong, but hey maybe you drive like that? You really think people drive flat out to get top times? Its about using the best lines so you can keep speed in corners and reducing the need to brake, timing acceleration out of corners and stuff.

How does what you're saying negate what you quoted him as saying? Of course top drivers do what you say. He's just saying that they don't fear pushing everything to the limit in order to get those top times. They drive with skill and no fear. The two aren't opposite of one another. In fact, I think he stated several times already that it takes great skill. So I don't know if you're just being obtuse on purpose for the sake of argument, or what. But you made his point he had already been making in the thread, so... :lol

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I interpret driving aggressively as driving sloppily. Skittering around corners cause you came in too hot. You get fast by driving methodically and precisely. You can't do that by accident because it feels counterintuitive to a novice.

I think this is where a lot of disconnect may be coming from. My definition of driving aggressively is different - it's pushing limits while staying in control, as well as a mentality when racing against other drivers on a course. Driving sloppy and untechnically sound isn't aggressive to me - it's simply unskilled or amateurish, regardless of speed.

 

[Firewire]

I think we can put the rewind issue to bed. As I said at the beginning. Anybody that's against it is a moron and the last few pages only proves that out.

aww fuck why don't I just call you a moron for liking this shit in a driving simulator? But I won't do that because I won't resort to name calling because someone disagrees with me.

Racing is driving start to finish, only longer races give you the opportunity to pause for pit stops, and well flags but you can't pit or pass during those. There are no re-do's in real racing and these games are meant to be racing simulators! Maybe we should just call one a racing simulator and the other an arcade racing simulator?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Everyone that plays the game is looking to set a good time. People who use rewind will drive more aggressively than someone who doesn't use it. Most of the time they'll use rewind, negating their chance to score on the leaderboard, but every once in awhile someone will get lucky and not have to use rewind, even though they're driving like they're planning on using it. Their score will post to the leaderboard.

So basically, because his unpure motivation to be a better driver, accidentally made him a better driver, it's unfair that he's placed above you on the leaderboard.

Wow.

Someone driving like a reckless asshole using rewind vs someone driving like a reckless asshole and restarting everytime they leave the track is different how? Anyone who's pushing their limits like that is going to get better lap times regardless because they're replaying the track over and over, perfecting minor mistakes.

 

[Muerte_X]

LOL at the rewind taking away fear even if you don't have to use it argument. You really believe that the top 10, or even top 100 would be someone that got that time by accident? ROFL

If you're not trying to push the car and try to find the absolute limit of what it can do, you're never going to post a good time on the leaderboard. People would drive "aggressively" whether or not the rewind option was there.

 

[KHarvey16]

aww fuck why don't I just call you a moron for liking this shit in a driving simulator? But I won't do that because I won't resort to name calling because someone disagrees with me.

Racing is driving start to finish, only longer races give you the opportunity to pause for pit stops, and well flags but you can't pit or pass during those. There are no re-do's in real racing and these games are meant to be racing simulators! Maybe we should just call one a racing simulator and the other an arcade racing simulator?

This shit again? There are no restarts in real life. All cars don't have the ability to use ABS, tcs, stability control or automatic transmissions. I can't run 15 races in one day in reality. Crashing in real life might even kill you.

 

[Shurs]

Yes, it is. Because the argument doesn't make sense to anyone who actually plays these games.

Let's say that you and I are on the last lap of a 30 lap race. Neither one of us has used rewind up until this point. Our times are similar. Coming into the last turn I slow down to the speed I know I can safely take the turn because I know if I wreck, I'll have to restart this very long race. You decide that, because if you wreck you can rewind, you'll take the turn a bit faster than you have throughout the race. You don't crash. You get the better time by a fraction of a second because you had the option of rewind.

If you can't see how this can have an effect on gameplay for both those who use rewind and don't. You're intentionally putting your head in the sand.

 

[Muerte_X]

Corner exit speed > just taking a corner faster. If you're wrecking IN a corner you can't drive worth crap anyway and aren't going to be posting a fast time. You're coming closest to the edge on corner exit as you're transitioning to full throttle while widening the angle on your turning arc to have the highest possible corner exit speed.

I interpret driving aggressively as driving sloppily. Skittering around corners cause you came in too hot. You get fast by driving methodically and precisely. You can't do that by accident because it feels counterintuitive to a novice.

Werd, I've heard people say "slower is faster". If you take a turn perfectly, it looks and even feels slower than someone skidding and sliding through slamming on the brakes or going WOT at a bad time in the curve. If you were to watch someone drive like this on a course without a timer, it'd look really slow to the average person.

Sure, someone could do a turn over and over with rewind until they perfect it, but people do this anyway by restarting or just practicing, until they go for a full lap time. It saves some time, that's all.

 

[Firewire]

Since when did you become the authority of who does and does not deserve to unlock cars in racing games?

I'm no authority and the game does that. It determines what time or position you might need to progress and how you unlock cars. But if you can progress and unlock cars while using the rewind feature then that's a hole in the game left by Turn 10.

 

[jakonovski]

There are no re-do's in real racing and these games are meant to be racing simulators!

Should we start listing all the things that exist in racing sims and not in real racing? It would be a long list and the GT series would feature prominently.

 

[jakonovski]

I'm no authority and the game does that. It determines what time or position you might need to progress and how you unlock cars. But if you can progress and unlock cars while using the rewind feature then that's a hole in the game left by Turn 10.

You sound like one of those people defending MMO grind.

 

[KHarvey16]

Let's say that you and I are on the last lap of a 30 lap race. Neither one of us has used rewind up until this point. Our times are similar. Coming into the last turn I slow down to the speed I know I can safely take the turn because I know if I wreck, I'll have to restart this very long race. You decide that, because if you wreck you can rewind, you'll take the turn a bit faster than you have throughout the race. You don't crash. You get the better time by a fraction of a second because you had the option of rewind.

If you can't see how this can have an effect on gameplay for both those who use rewind and don't. You're intentionally putting your head in the sand.

If it's possible to take the turn faster than you did, it's your damn fault for not knowing you could do it quicker. This is a terrible, terrible argument.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Let's say that you and I are on the last lap of a 30 lap race. Neither one of us has used rewind up until this point. Our times are similar. Coming into the last turn I slow down to the speed I know I can safely take the turn because I know if I wreck, I'll have to restart this very long race. You decide that, because you know how much you can push your car on this turn and still be on the edge of control without spinning off, you'll take the turn a bit faster than you have throughout the race. You don't crash. You get the better time by a fraction of a second because you had more skill.

You can do the above with or without the presence of rewind.

 

[Yoritomo]

aww fuck why don't I just call you a moron for liking this shit in a driving simulator? But I won't do that because I won't resort to name calling because someone disagrees with me.

Racing is driving start to finish, only longer races give you the opportunity to pause for pit stops, and well flags but you can't pit or pass during those. There are no re-do's in real racing and these games are meant to be racing simulators! Maybe we should just call one a racing simulator and the other an arcade racing simulator?

Your car can also break down in real racing, a deer can cross the road, you can die permanently by being speared in the head by a suspension arm, tires blow etc. This is a game. Rewind is a useful tool that can help you practice a corner. It can't be used in multiplayer, and it can't be used to post a top time.

People can use it to get better faster though. That's awesome. However I think you're just trolling for fun. :lol

 

[SmokyDave]

Let's say that you and I are on the last lap of a 30 lap race. Neither one of us has used rewind up until this point. Our times are similar. Coming into the last turn I slow down to the speed I know I can safely take the turn because I know if I wreck, I'll have to restart this very long race. You decide that, because if you wreck you can rewind, you'll take the turn a bit faster than you have throughout the race. You don't crash. You get the better time by a fraction of a second because you had the option of rewind.

If you can't see how this can have an effect on gameplay for both those who use rewind and don't. You're intentionally putting your head in the sand.

Do not buy Forza 3. I can picture you now, hunched over and peering at the screen. You scan the names above you, sure, they look legit but how many of those bastards had thoughts of rewinding in their head? Which are pure laps and which are tainted?

I think you may need some help. You are caring about this WAY too much. Did you know some people play games on easy? Some people (wait for it) let other people that are better than them play their games for them. Can you ever look at a gamercard again without breaking into a sweat?

 

[Yoritomo]

You can do the above with or without the presence of rewind.

But rewind gives you another tool to learn this faster and apply it in real racing or hotlapping.

 

[Firewire]

This shit again? There are no restarts in real life. All cars don't have the ability to use ABS, tcs, stability control or automatic transmissions. I can't run 15 races in one day in reality. Crashing in real life might even kill you.

Yes yes we know there are no restarts in real life, and this shit again? I told you yesterday I'm all for these games locking out races in a career mode so there is no restart available. Can you change the ABS and the other features you mentioned in the middle of a race? Just wondering?

 

[shpankey]

aww fuck why don't I just call you a moron for liking this shit in a driving simulator? But I won't do that because I won't resort to name calling because someone disagrees with me.

Racing is driving start to finish, only longer races give you the opportunity to pause for pit stops, and well flags but you can't pit or pass during those. There are no re-do's in real racing and these games are meant to be racing simulators! Maybe we should just call one a racing simulator and the other an arcade racing simulator?

I'd be curious to know what your stance was on the GT series not having damage before, and if you were this opposed to a sim, supposedly the "real" sim of sims, not having it and if you were this vocal about it on gaf. Because everything that's being argued now against rewind, actually fits as a better argument towards a sim not having damage. The lack of damage can make drivers sloppy, can artificially increase lap times and be abused and can make a game "arcadey".

At least in rewind you redo the corner until you learn to take it right, whereas the lack of damage in GT nefarious players just plowed through corners, careening off walls and went on their way.

I'm not calling you out, but I have a feeling there are a few hypocrites in this thread that are just making arguments for and against based on prejudices and bias.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Your car can also break down in real racing, a deer can cross the road, you can die permanently by being speared in the head by a suspension arm, tires blow etc. This is a game. Rewind is a useful tool that can help you practice a corner. It can't be used in multiplayer, and it can't be used to post a top time.

I don't think either game lets you burn out the clutch if you have a wheel with a progressive clutch pedal. Neither should be considered a driving sim!

However I think you're just trolling for fun. :lol

That's pretty much the point of the thread for a while, outside of keeping the main threads clean. :lol

Do not buy Forza 3. I can picture you now, hunched over and peering at the screen. You scan the names above you, sure, they look legit but how many of those bastards had thoughts of rewinding in their head? Which are pure laps and which are tainted?

I think you may need some help. You are caring about this WAY too much. Did you know some people play games on easy? Some people (wait for it) let other people that are better than them play their games for them. Can you ever look at a gamercard again without breaking into a sweat?

Best post since the Redbeard story. :lol

 

[Yoritomo]

Let's say that you and I are on the last lap of a 30 lap race. Neither one of us has used rewind up until this point. Our times are similar. Coming into the last turn I slow down to the speed I know I can safely take the turn because I know if I wreck, I'll have to restart this very long race. You decide that, because if you wreck you can rewind, you'll take the turn a bit faster than you have throughout the race. You don't crash. You get the better time by a fraction of a second because you had the option of rewind.

If you can't see how this can have an effect on gameplay for both those who use rewind and don't. You're intentionally putting your head in the sand.

Have you ever raced online?

 

[KHarvey16]

Yes yes we know there are no restarts in real life, and this shit again? I told you yesterday I'm all for these games locking out races in a career mode so there is no restart available. Can you change the ABS and the other features you mentioned in the middle of a race? Just wondering?

So gran turismo is not, in your estimation, a simulator?

 

[Muerte_X]

Let's say that you and I are on the last lap of a 30 lap race. Neither one of us has used rewind up until this point. Our times are similar. Coming into the last turn I slow down to the speed I know I can safely take the turn because I know if I wreck, I'll have to restart this very long race. You decide that, because if you wreck you can rewind, you'll take the turn a bit faster than you have throughout the race. You don't crash. You get the better time by a fraction of a second because you had the option of rewind.

If you can't see how this can have an effect on gameplay for both those who use rewind and don't. You're intentionally putting your head in the sand.

If you've taking that turn 30 times already and slow down more than you know you have to and take the turn incorrectly, you're doing it wrong.

 

[evolution]

So basically, because his unpure motivation to be a better driver, accidentally made him a better driver, it's unfair that he's placed above you on the leaderboard.

Wow.

Someone driving like a reckless asshole using rewind vs someone driving like a reckless asshole and restarting everytime they leave the track is different how? Anyone who's pushing their limits like that is going to get better lap times regardless because they're replaying the track over and over, perfecting minor mistakes.

Exactly, there is no difference. Rewind won't be in GT5 and it doesn't need to be.

 

[Yoritomo]

Exactly, there is no difference. Rewind won't be in GT5 and it doesn't need to be.

I wish they'd take out the driving line too. That's a crutch.

 

[SmokyDave]

I wish they'd take out the driving line too. That's a crutch.

You can turn it off.

 

[shpankey]

Best post since the Redbeard story. :lol

I missed that. Linky?

 

[jakonovski]

Exactly, there is no difference. Rewind won't be in GT5 and it doesn't need to be.

How do you know? If I was PD I'd put it in there because it's a great feature for many people and probably increases sales far more than the cost of implementing it.

 

[Yoritomo]

You can turn it off.

Other people shouldn't have it there. It ruins the sim experience. Hell I think they need to do away with different physics models for difficulty levels.

 

[evolution]

I wish they'd take out the driving line too. That's a crutch.

The only aide you can't turn off is the suggested gear idicator.

 

[jakonovski]

This is all so silly, I think I ought to do rewind-free and rewind-ful hot laps in the demo and post the time difference. Assuming my Aion addiction gives me the chance, ofc.

 

[Firewire]

I'd be curious to know what your stance was on the GT series not having damage before, and if you were this opposed to a sim, supposedly the "real" sim of sims, not having it and if you were this vocal about it on gaf. Because everything that's being argued now against rewind, actually fits as a better argument towards a sim not having damage. The lack of damage can make drivers sloppy, can artificially increase lap times and be abused and can make a game "arcadey".

At least in rewind you redo the corner until you learn to take it right, whereas the lack of damage in GT nefarious players just plowed through corners, careening off walls and went on their way.

I'm not calling you out, but I have a feeling there are a few hypocrites in this thread that are just making arguments for and against based on prejudices and bias.

I have stated here in the past that I am against damage in online racing but for it in career mode. And there is only one reason that I don't like it in online, because people are stupid and act stupidly. If I'm racing and using my lines properly and some ass hat decides to barrel into me in a corner why should I suffer the consequences. Now this can happen by accident I understand but I have raced enough online to know that some jerk will do this for fun. I've seen it in GT5P where idiots try and do crash em up dirby's at the race's start. Now flying cars parts are cool and stuff would love that actually!, but if some kid barrels into me on purpose and damages my car as a result that takes all the fun out of a racing sim for me, well at least the online part. If I race and screw up and damage my car where it won't drive properly hey I deserve it and I'm all for this type of damage. But these games don't decide who's at fault it will just give appropriate damage to all involved.

For the most part this is the reason I only drive online with friends that won't act like jerks. I have some Japanese buddies I raced with allot and God if you bumped someone out of the way it was frowned upon big time. Damn if I got a little nudge from one of these guys I would receive apologies and others would frown upon him. That's the type of racing I like.

 

[Princess Carl]

So wrong, but hey maybe you drive like that? You really think people drive flat out to get top times? Its about using the best lines so you can keep speed in corners and reducing the need to brake, timing acceleration out of corners and stuff.

I don't really care, but its like AndyD mentioned, people will use it for progression in the game, to get cars unlocked when they didn't deserve to progress or didn't deserve to unlock a car. Its a cheat if you can use it for these purposes.

Does there have to be a point to the video? Fuck look at what people put up on You Tube every day!

But will they only use it in a practice? Once you know its there people will be tempted to use it more and more.

what the fuck is this shit? Just because they unlock the car does not equate to how well they can drive it.

And another what the fuck is this shit about not deserving the car? Get over yourself.

and obviously you do care since your quoting it again and making such a stink about it

 

[tinfoilhatman]

Can anyone tell me if GT5 is rendering in the same fashion as Wipeout HD?

Been playing wipeout HD lately and while I'm not a fan of funky resolution it looks super sharp and nice.

 

[Firewire]

So gran turismo is not, in your estimation, a simulator?

Why don't you answer the question? I don't really know, I set up my cars and I don't attempt to change settings during races.

 

[shpankey]

I have stated here in the past that I am against damage in online racing but for it in career mode. And there is only one reason that I don't like it in online, because people are stupid and act stupidly. If I'm racing and using my lines properly and some ass hat decides to barrel into me in a corner why should I suffer the consequences.

I would argue you just haven't seen a good implementation of online play then. Take, for example, NR03, an 8 year old game, it has a great online implementation. Drivers are ranked according to skill, from 0 to 10, to being the highest. In order to move up in the ranking, one just needs to not only drive good with good times, but also maintain a lower LPI (laps per incident). This encouraged all players to drive well, and with time, you would move up eventually to drivers of your skill. Since causing a wreck could hurt your LPI and therefore your ranking, racers, especially of higher rank, would try to avoid them. Papyrus would set up racing rooms, the qualifier being your ranking (ie must be 4 or above, 6 or above, etc).

This is what saddens me about today's racing sims on consoles, that we still haven't adopted such a system.

 

[Yoritomo]

The only aide you can't turn off is the suggested gear idicator.

Yeah but people can use the driving line and standard physics to earn rewards they don't deserve. There should only be the professional physics model and no driving line.

It's not like you can ask the universe to change its physics to make you faster or make it easier to drive.

 

[KHarvey16]

Why don't you answer the question? I don't really know, I set up my cars and I don't attempt to change settings during races.

I'm asking you. I want to know if consistency is a concern for you at all. To me GT and FM are both simulation racers.

 

[Chrange]

Exactly, there is no difference. Rewind won't be in GT5 and it doesn't need to be.

Why would they need it? You can totally screw up a corner in GT5 and just drive 150mph around the wall instead.

 

[Yoritomo]

Can you change the ABS and the other features you mentioned in the middle of a race? Just wondering?

You can in real life in many top tier sportscars. You can change stability control, traction control, suspension dampening, throttle response, all while racing.

I guess if you can't do this in the game it's not a sim.

 

[Firewire]

what the fuck is this shit? Just because they unlock the car does not equate to how well they can drive it.

And another what the fuck is this shit about not deserving the car? Get over yourself.

and obviously you do care since your quoting it again and making such a stink about it

what?

If you have to use rewind to get the time/spot needed to progress or to unlock a car you aren't getting it fairly, you are using an aid basically to help you achieve progression or unlock a car. That's kind of bogus if you ask me.

 

[sneaky77]

Let's say that you and I are on the last lap of a 30 lap race. Neither one of us has used rewind up until this point. Our times are similar. Coming into the last turn I slow down to the speed I know I can safely take the turn because I know if I wreck, I'll have to restart this very long race. You decide that, because if you wreck you can rewind, you'll take the turn a bit faster than you have throughout the race. You don't crash. You get the better time by a fraction of a second because you had the option of rewind.

If you can't see how this can have an effect on gameplay for both those who use rewind and don't. You're intentionally putting your head in the sand.

Seriously... again? if he used rewind he cannot have the better time.. the time is not clean, therefore he will not be ahead of you on the leaderboards.

 

[KHarvey16]

what?

If you have to use rewind to get the time/spot needed to progress or to unlock a car you aren't getting it fairly, you are using an aid basically to help you achieve progression or unlock a car. That's kind of bogus if you ask me.

As long as you render the same judgment if the aid in question is ABS or a driving line.

 

[SmokyDave]

what?

If you have to use rewind to get the time/spot needed to progress or to unlock a car you aren't getting it fairly, you are using an aid basically to help you achieve progression or unlock a car. That's kind of bogus if you ask me.

So presumably only those racing manual with no assists (not even ABS) who do not retry deserve to unlock cars?

The fact that anybody cares what cars other people unlock in their career mode is quite disconcerting.

I did all of my best mates arcade achievements in Forza 2 because he wasn't good enough to get them. How do you feel about that?

Also, the bolded is downright stupid when you think about the purpose of an 'aid'.