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[jaypah]

well I dont know who gets trolled harder. I do know that Che is alot more vocal than any other CM, I dont see PD saying antying about Forza. Hence if your fanboy takes leads from the top, its not a doubt that Turn10 is much more aware and flamebate than PD.

To be honest they are not even competing with each other. If you are 360 or PS3 only user you will end up buying the respected game no matter what.

just going by this thread GT fanboys won this one soundly. going by other threads it seems a lot more even but it should; this is a troll free zone. meaning people get to say what they would otherwise get banned for. but just look around and watch the total GT meltdowns at the mere mention of parity between the 2 games in any category. it's insane but also pretty fun if you don't have anything invested in the battle.

and fanboys don't take their lead from the top. Forza fanatics trolled GT less even though the guys at T10 were acting like douches. also if that was the case GT fanatics wouldn't say shit. they'd keep it classy as that's how PD roll. all fanboys act like asses completely on their own. one side has the champion of racing games franchises on a console that didn't start to well after 2 generations of domination and the other has a good franchise that one day may take the crown on a console that is doing better than anyone ever thought and coming off of a generation where it got it's ass handed to them. honestly, which side would you expect to be the most vocal? one side feels threatened and the other hopes to achieve the same greatness. it's no wonder that when podcasts and "journalist" talk about the state of fanboyism it's always, "blah, blah, blah, PS3 is great, blah" with the whiny voice. they're really vocal this gen.

Sony is going through all the right steps to come back seriously though so i can't wait to see the whiny entitled fanboy demographic shift again. good times.

 

[jakonovski]

cooL, we rewinded back to graphics comparisons

That's totally cheating, the thread should've been restarted from the beginning. There is a clear divide of arcade and sim posters here.

 

[shpankey]

I don't think we rewound so much as we're just going in circles.

 

[Forsete]

Why is it so hard for some devs to nail the lightning like PD has? Either its too contrasty or just too flat/fake looking.

Lack of processing power or just skill? These games are trying to be as realistic as possible anyway, with the art direction at least.

 

[LCfiner]

This thread is a mobius strip

 

[imtehman]

its a shame though that, if its similar to the demo, that T10 didn't have the foresight to have a turn on/off for rewind in the options menu prior to a race.

 

[jaypah]

Why is it so hard for some devs to nail the lightning like PD has? Either its too contrasty or just too flat/fake looking.

Lack of processing power or just skill? These games are trying to be as realistic as possible anyway, with the art direction at least.

probably skill. you're talking as if PD is some middle of the road developer.

 

[commedieu]

That swapping is LOD. Not sure what the disconnect is here.

At least assure me you don't think you're actually fooling anyone. Can you do that for me?

Harvey,

I'm not sure what you're after. Nor do I think im trying to fool anyone by saying PD doesn't swap out menu models or replay models with in game models.. because they dont. They are the same model. PD/most games do lod buffers when an object gets a certain distance away from the viewing point/camera.

Turn10 has a lod system as well when vehicles get far away. Turn10 also has entirely different models for the Menu, replay & in game start.

I can tell you're trying to insulting me, but Not sure what your point is if my point is PD doesn't swap out models in the Menu/Replay/Ingamestart before the GUI pops up.

Are you arguing what LOD means in general, and that you already know that Turn10 uses totally different models for the Menus/Replay than Ingame driving?

 

[imtehman]

Why is it so hard for some devs to nail the lightning like PD has? Either its too contrasty or just too flat/fake looking.

Lack of processing power or just skill? These games are trying to be as realistic as possible anyway, with the art direction at least.

probably because priorities are different?

 

[ElNino]

its a shame though that, if its similar to the demo, that T10 didn't have the foresight to have a turn on/off in the options menu prior to a race.

Of course you will be able to do that (turn HUD options on/off prior to a race) in the full game. MS demos do not allow you to save anything, so the options must be changed everytime you load the demo.

 

[imtehman]

Of course you will be able to do that (turn HUD options on/off prior to a race) in the full game. MS demos do not allow you to save anything, so the options must be changed everytime you load the demo.

err, i was referring to the rewind feature

 

[ElNino]

err, i was referring to the rewind feature

I see. Maybe that will be an option... I don't know yet.

 

[commedieu]

absolutely impressive but to be completely honest this is still different from the model used in menus. Look at that park assist sensor, for example, it's a lot smoother in menus.

Also, ingame models use yet another lod mesh for cars, You can't really tell because you can't possibly get this close

Again, they are the same vehicle. Wait for the menu screen to go to the views where the camera goes over the car. Gtplanet has gone over this. Tokyo's backdrop does close up camera moves, as does the Canyon/Cave & the german christmas cobblestoned ground.

The images captured are zoomed in to a level you cant compare to those menu modes. Not to mention the menu modes also have higher AA than the gameplay does.

The lod mesh for ingame models is the same. The headlight detail is the same, and you can read the text if you get a bmw to go head to head with you, in game. Again, venture over to the Cockpit view thread to see captures of the ingame BMW/Ferrari headlight/taillights from the bumper view camera. Shots captured from in game have just as much detail.

Even in the "BULLSHOTS" you can see the low poly edges on the cars corners, especially the Enzo.

When you're grasping at straws about a severely zoomed in edge, its safe to say its a non issue. Unlike all Turn10 shots that are different geometry from the start without even leaning towards the tv.

 

[djblackice]

cry moar

They let you back in?

Tsk tsk tsk.

 

[jakonovski]

What's the difference between a different LOD model of a BMW 335i and a "completely different" model of a BMW 335i?

 

[shpankey]

I can't believe people are actually whining about menu models looking better. The in-game models are what they are. You have a demo to play the game long before the game hits retail, nobody is trying to deceive you. Honestly, who gives a shit about menu models looking a little better? It's a fricken menu.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

What's the difference between a different LOD model of a BMW 335i and a "completely different" model of a BMW 335i?

Completely depends on what game the model's used for, duh.

 

[Dabanton]

I cannot believe this thread has nearly reached 100 pages.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I cannot believe this thread has nearly reached 100 pages.

You should set your posts per page higher then.

 

[commedieu]

What's the difference between a different LOD model of a BMW 335i and a "completely different" model of a BMW 335i?

Well by the way you put it, I can see the issue. When I say LOD, im talking about in game swapping out of a model when it reaches a certain distance from the cam while playing the game. The process in general, not just the word. Which is why I said over and over that all games do it, including GT.

The way you word it, there is no difference and "completely different" = lod. I agree. So I see what that other guy meant, and where he is coming from. If you're just talking about the term without mentioning the games.

Forza3 ingame doesn't start out with the Menu/Replay/Beginning of the race model. Those 3 are all different, and aren't playable. The pre-race cameras move around a higher polygon car, then swap to the realtime lower polygon model that you actually race with. Then from that, lod models are swapped wen they reach a certain distance from the camera. The only model you actually drive in Forza3 is a low polygon model that you only see while racing.

Which is why its different than what GT does, which is why you can see the same details ingame-replay-menu.

Having a different model for the Menu/Replay/IngamePrestart/Low poly model for racing isnt the same as..Having a car model that goes to a lower lod model when its further away.

 

[eso76]

Again, they are the same vehicle. Wait for the menu screen to go to the views where the camera goes over the car. Gtplanet has gone over this. Tokyo's backdrop does close up camera moves, as does the Canyon/Cave & the german christmas cobblestoned ground.

The images captured are zoomed in to a level you cant compare to those menu modes. Not to mention the menu modes also have higher AA than the gameplay does.
.

headlight looks the same, but that park-assist sensor...it looks smoother in menus, and not because of AA or distance, but i can't be bothered to double check right now.

Last time i played gtp i paid special attention to ingame models and i did spot a few differences in some of them (and absolutely no difference i could tell in others); i also have a picture somewhere of an impreza wrx sti hood air intake in menus and during replays and it IS less detailed/less smooth, although very slightly.
Of course it's a non issue, since you really have to zoom in 400x and pause the game to even start thinking there might be a very minor difference; still, technically speaking, it's not 100% exactly the same model from what i've seen. On average, cars still have like 9x the detail of those in fm3, though, so i certainly wouldn't compare them on this level.


(also, fm3 uses 2 different models for each car; uber high lod menu ones, also used in pre-race closeups, and ingame models, which are exactly the same being used in replays and have different lod's according to distance. And yes, technically speaking, the difference between menu and ingame models is not strictly 'lod' related, it's completely different models)

 

[dfyb]

it does, but coming from you, a person that doesn't even own a 360(going by your profile) it doesn't mean much

coming from a guy who doesn't have a single trophy...

should we just ignore your posts, too?

 

[ShapeGSX]

coming from a guy who doesn't have a single trophy...

should we just ignore your posts, too?

GT5 Prologue doesn't have trophies.

 

[evolution]

GT5 Prologue doesn't have trophies.

But this guy doesn't have any trophies whatsoever :lol

 

[RSTEIN]

I cannot believe this thread has nearly reached 100 pages.

Actually it's quite fitting that it will hit 100 pages the same day the Forza 3 embargo is lifted! :lol

 

[skrew]

Here's my take on the Forza models.

Forza has"menu models" and "race models". The menu models are never used in actual gameplay, the race models are... and they use different lods just like any other racer. Forza also allows you to export the replay which changes the race models to menu models. X360 can't do these exported models in realtime, or else they would be the real time replays My problem is the fact that T10 used these exported replays to represent the game.

Do replay in GT/Forza look better than actually racing? Yes.
Did PD use realtime replays to represent the game? Yes
Did T10 use realtime replay to represent the game? No, they used exported replays.

 

[dfyb]

both forza and PGR have always used the likes of photomode in an effort to try and compete with GT's visuals. the worst part is that some people actually buy into it :lol.

 

[chubigans]

What does "exported replays" mean? Isn't that just a saved replay?

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

both forza and PGR have always used the likes of photomode in an effort to try and compete with GT's visuals. the worst part is that some people actually buy into it :lol.

What person thinks FM3 has better car models than GT5? Two of them? Three? I can wait for details.

 

[skrew]

Saved replay in the traditional sense is just saved data of the race used to render the game in realtime. Forza allows you to export HD video of the race.

 

[chubigans]

Saved replay in the traditional sense is just saved data of the race used to render the game in realtime. Forza allows you to export HD video of the race that .

Like a stand alone movie file playable on anything? Huh, I didn't know that.

 

[Shurs]

If it's possible to take the turn faster than you did, it's your damn fault for not knowing you could do it quicker. This is a terrible, terrible argument.

No it's not. Your argument has changed from: the people using rewind do not effect those who do not to: the people using rewind only effect the less skilled players.

Let's say that you and I are on the last lap of a 30 lap race. Neither one of us has used rewind up until this point. Our times are similar. Coming into the last turn I slow down to the speed I know I can safely take the turn because I know if I wreck, I'll have to restart this very long race. You decide that, because if you wreck you can rewind, you'll take the turn a bit faster than you have throughout the race. You don't crash. You get the better time by a fraction of a second because you had the option of rewind.

If you can't see how this can have an effect on gameplay for both those who use rewind and don't. You're intentionally putting your head in the sand.

Seriously... again? if he used rewind he cannot have the better time.. the time is not clean, therefore he will not be ahead of you on the leaderboards.

Read better.

If you've taking that turn 30 times already and slow down more than you know you have to and take the turn incorrectly, you're doing it wrong.

I never said anything about slowing down more than you know you have to. Just that someone who doesn't care that they don't have to restart after an hour of racing may take more chances than someone who does, this will lead to some lucky breaks.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Here's my take on the Forza models.

Forza has"menu models" and "race models". The menu models are never used in actual gameplay, the race models are... and they use different lods just like any other racer. Forza also allows you to export the replay which changes the race models to menu models. X360 can't do these exported models in realtime, or else they would be the real time replays My problem is the fact that T10 used these exported replays to represent the game.

Do replay in GT/Forza look better than actually racing? Yes.
Did PD use realtime replays to represent the game? Yes
Did T10 use realtime replay to represent the game? No, they used exported replays.

The "Lap around Sedona Raceway" video uses the same LOD that you see in the replays in the real game.
http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/media/videos/default.htm#/video/1549/

And PD uses pre-rendered video to represent their game all the time.

 

[KHarvey16]

No it's not. Your argument has changed from: the people using rewind do not effect those who do not to: the people using rewind only effect the less skilled players

No it hasn't :lol

 

[skrew]

The "Lap around Sedona Raceway" video uses the same LOD that you see in the replays in the real game.
http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/media/videos/default.htm#/video/1549/

And PD uses pre-rendered video to represent their game all the time.

So the hundred of screens released before using exported replays doesn't matter. And when was the last time PD used screens of pre-rendered video to represent actual realtime screenshots?

 

[sneaky77]

Read better.

so he took the turn faster and he got a better time? whatsthe issue there? that he was less of a pussy? I don't get it. If you had taken that turn at the samespeed the whole time to the issue that one corner would make much of a difference, I don't see how that "omg if i fuck up i can just rewind" really affects anything...

 

[Shurs]

No it hasn't :lol

In addition to all that, anyone capable of setting a top time would be VERY good at whatever track they're on. No scrub driving like an idiot will get lucky and displace them.

Yes, it has.

 

[KHarvey16]

Yes, it has.

Uhhh...

I think you need to go outside for awhile.

 

[Shurs]

Uhhh...

I think you need to go outside for awhile.

So rather than admit you're wrong, you choose to insult me. I'm not the one who's been posting in the thread all day, dude.

 

[KHarvey16]

So rather than admit you're wrong, you choose to insult me. I'm not the one who's been posting in the thread all day, dude.

Not admit I'm wrong? I'm not wrong and your point to try to show I am makes absolutely zero sense. You're losing your mind.

 

[ShapeGSX]

So the hundred of screens released before using exported replays doesn't matter. And when was the last time PD used screens of pre-rendered video to represent actual realtime screenshots?

Those are from photo mode. Personally, I knew that the moment I saw them. There is no motion blur in the actual game, but the photo mode shots have motion blur. It is pretty obvious.

Just like PD uses photo mode. Look at most of the GT5 screen shots posted in this thread. Most of them are photo mode shots, and are enhanced over what you see in motion in game play. There is no motion blur in GT5's actual 60fps gameplay that we have seen. But it is there in the 30fps replay mode, and also present in photo mode.

 

[enzo_gt]

both forza and PGR have always used the likes of photomode in an effort to try and compete with GT's visuals. the worst part is that some people actually buy into it :lol.

dfyb
Not just insane, he's batshit fucking insane
(Today, 07:51 PM)
Reply | Quote

Didn't know PGR ever tried to compete with GT with any respect. PGR has its own clear art-style, which isn't hugely focused on looking "realistic." Don't know what thats doing in a Sim vs. Sim thread though.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Just that someone who doesn't care that they don't have to restart after an hour of racing may take more chances than someone who does, this will lead to some lucky breaks.

The only way to take a corner faster is to drive better while still taking the optimal line. What's so lucky about it? If a driver plays it safe to ensure they take a corner properly, then they shouldn't be surprised if someone else that takes a more aggressive stance possibly beats them, regardless of their reasoning.

Using this as an argument against rewind is completely baffling. What next, should we also prevent people from taking certain medication that might also make them more likely to do something similar?

The best drivers out there are going to want to push the limit of that corner if they really want to win with a better time, regardless of whether they have a rewind ability or not.

Wait, why am I arguing in this thread again? I keep forgetting there's no use in it. :lol

 

[mujun]

Things made clear in this thread:

1. Forza 3 is a good looking game, better looking than it's predecessor.
2. GT5 looks better than Forza 3, more than likely by a decent margin.
3. There are a lot of fanboys who given the chance to troll the opposition carte blanche will do so and while they would probably enjoy themselves more on the gametrailers forums or something they will stay here.

 

[Melfice7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpewurgIikY

 

[Zaptruder]

As a GT fan, rewind is a nice feature. Should be entirely optional, and there should be areas of the game where you can't use the feature... but at the very least, it would be great for lap practice.

That said, it's entirely laughable how Forza fans constantly try to bring up the issue or defend it like it's going to make up for all the qualitative differences and make it the Superior Sim(TM).

 

[RSTEIN]

That said, it's entirely laughable how Forza fans constantly try to bring up the issue or defend it like it's going to make up for all the qualitative differences and make it the Superior Sim(TM).

Uh, I don't think anyone is saying that because Forza 3 has a rewind feature it's all of a sudden a superior game. Rewind was introduced way before Forza 3. Turn 10 saw some other games implement the feature and thought it would be cool to include it in F3. That's really all there is to it. There's no ZOMG REWIND MAKES FORZA 3 BETTER THAN GT!

 

[commedieu]

Uh, I don't think anyone is saying that because Forza 3 has a rewind feature it's all of a sudden a superior game. Rewind was introduced way before Forza 3. Turn 10 saw some other games implement the feature and thought it would be cool to include it in F3. That's really all there is to it. There's no ZOMG REWIND MAKES FORZA 3 BETTER THAN GT!

Well as usual.. the folks at turn10 speak louder than the fans trying to defend them. In one of Griswalds last interview he said that when he plays games without rewind, its like they are dated and old. Which is yet another stab at driving games. I honestly do believe Turn10 thinks they are the first to come up with rewind.

Forza3's "exported" replays use higher polygon models as well. fyi folks.

Fact is this, everyone touches up their game shots. But GT's ingame gameplay/detail/lighting is 99.92% an accurate representation of the Photomode. Forzas isn't. Which is why people made the threads about the lower polygon models on Turn10's own forums. Its not like its even close.

Turn10 shot their mouths off, people said "wait lets take a look". After you look, you see its different than the nonsense Turn10 said. People pretended to be confused what LOD meant. And remember at turn 10...

We dont do bullshots.

That statement alone pretty much seals the argument. Turn10 does do bullshots. They said they dont. Defend away, but Turn10 is Turn10's worst enemy here.

 

[theignoramus]

What the hell? I've never seen a racing/braking line in real life. And they make racing games much easier because you use them at every turn, whereas someone would presumably only rewind once or twice a race.

Bullshit. Racing lines and assists cannot fundamentally prevent you from smashing into another vehicle nor do they prevent another vehicle from smashing into you! They can assist you in getting to the front of the pack, but they do not allow you to cheat the AI.
If an AI nudges you from behind during the second last lap of a race (which Forza AI is prone to do. ) a rewind button can erase that and allow you to dodge that situation. No racing line or or assist does this.
Furthermore I havnt read a single thing about how rewind is to be implemented in career mode. Now I expect that it will be treated like any assist, and you won't be able to get the maximum amount of available points/credits if you use it. But suppose you're in first place, the AI overtakes you during the last few corners, and you use the rewind button. Is the sum of the point/credit difference between first and second place greater than that of the point/credits detracted through the use of the rewind button? Will a person that uses rewind to cheat their way out of a second or third place finish make less money than a person that finishes second or third without using it?

 

[ShapeGSX]

Forza3's "exported" replays use higher polygon models as well. fyi folks.

It does? That's awesome, if true! Can't wait to make some videos. Where did you see this?