There are but they are divided and/or unpopular. the left is discredited right now (thanks hollande...)
They're going to lose in the first round of the election, the second round will be lepen/fillon (barring a massive upset).
François Fillon is officially the right's candidate for the French Presidency
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There are but they are divided and/or unpopular. the left is discredited right now (thanks hollande...)
They're going to lose in the first round of the election, the second round will be lepen/fillon (barring a massive upset).
Only insofar as it can be used as a stick to hit Muslims with. PVV is nowhere to be seen in debates about gay rights if there's no angle for them to criticize Islam.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
No one is paying attention.
On topic... Between Filon and Le Pen, I think Le Pen has a chance, if she drives that left economic populist message home.
Franz Brötchen
Banned
Yeah, just caught up on that. Shows again that everyone, including the awful, may come in their very own flavor of vomit. The more you know.
This is of course of topic, but I expect Renzi to lose that one. Which may of course be extremely bizarre since the question at hand should be something Beppe Grillo if he were truly anti-establishment should've thought of himself.
Anyhow, isn't Italy's issue with the EU mostly on economic, i.e. the €'s grounds?
This is of course difficult enough but I myself (extremely pro-EU to the level of being an 'anti-Germany' German) would be okay with a well-ordered (lol, I know) dissolution of the currency since that seems easier than persuading Germans and other still-profiting-from-the-common-currency countries to commit to massive redistribution of current-account surpluses.
Palette Swap
Member
Interestingly enough, that's the angle Le Pen is playing. When the conservative right spent a year protesting gay marriage in the street, she was pretty silent about it, although most of her party wasn't.
Even on a personal level, she might not be against gay marriage, but on a political level, she probably perceived that this was a useless battle anyway, while she could use it later against Muslims.
I agree they seem to not be actively trying to help the LGBT community and mainly use it as an argument against Muslims. However, they also aren't actively against it, which is more then you can say about many similar politicians from other countries.
Sickboy007
Member
I certainly didn't expect this, but we in Italy actually have it pretty good, politics-wise, at least in a short-to-medium period and in comparison to the global nationalistic shitstorm.
Even if Renzi loses the referendum they'll probably change the electoral law before voting (again...), and Große Koalition it is.
If by some miracle the 5 Stars end up in coalition or win an outright majority, they're just too incompetent to do anything of note. We'll just have to wait for their parliamentary support to disintegrate while the rest of the country also slowly crumbles away.
In other words, what's new under the sun?
Even if Renzi loses the referendum they'll probably change the electoral law before voting (again...), and Große Koalition it is.
If by some miracle the 5 Stars end up in coalition or win an outright majority, they're just too incompetent to do anything of note. We'll just have to wait for their parliamentary support to disintegrate while the rest of the country also slowly crumbles away.
In other words, what's new under the sun?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Canada? Not even the CPC really tried to overturn that, at least.Sometimes I think we (the Netherlands) are the only country left where not a single party wants to turn back Gay marriage
Caipirinha
Member
Still think that Brexit and Trump should teach us not to ignore the signs third time around.
Very very high chance of Le Pen winning imo. Fundamentally Fillon represents the political class and the status quo and the French, like most other populations of developed countries, are sick to death of the status quo that brought them the 2008 financial crisis et al. The centre is gone, it's just a case of waiting for the "educated liberals" and "responsible conservatives" amongst us to wake up and see that.
What really gets to me about France is that unlike the UK and US, they actually have a functioning left in the Front de Gauche. I think the failure of Melenchon to be a contender is an example of the ultimate issue facing the left that we can't ignore anymore: far right scapegoating of minorities is such a simple and appealing argument to the human psyche when it is miserable/scared/threatened, and the left's argument of nuanced and educated understanding of the machinery of capitalism is not so appealing at first glance. People are so much more amenable to blaming their neighbours that look or act slightly different than them, than they are blaming complex systems of economic exploitation and a banking elite that they will never be allowed to come into close contact with.
Anyway, if Le Pen wins then that will be the biggest set back to human progress in the modern era imo. It will make Trump and Brexit look like fucking childs play. That will be it for the European project and for any semblance of progressivism in Europe. The content will splinter up and descend into dangerous neo-fascism in the 5-10 years proceeding and all it would take it one financial crisis to set the entire fucking place alight.
Very very high chance of Le Pen winning imo. Fundamentally Fillon represents the political class and the status quo and the French, like most other populations of developed countries, are sick to death of the status quo that brought them the 2008 financial crisis et al. The centre is gone, it's just a case of waiting for the "educated liberals" and "responsible conservatives" amongst us to wake up and see that.
What really gets to me about France is that unlike the UK and US, they actually have a functioning left in the Front de Gauche. I think the failure of Melenchon to be a contender is an example of the ultimate issue facing the left that we can't ignore anymore: far right scapegoating of minorities is such a simple and appealing argument to the human psyche when it is miserable/scared/threatened, and the left's argument of nuanced and educated understanding of the machinery of capitalism is not so appealing at first glance. People are so much more amenable to blaming their neighbours that look or act slightly different than them, than they are blaming complex systems of economic exploitation and a banking elite that they will never be allowed to come into close contact with.
Anyway, if Le Pen wins then that will be the biggest set back to human progress in the modern era imo. It will make Trump and Brexit look like fucking childs play. That will be it for the European project and for any semblance of progressivism in Europe. The content will splinter up and descend into dangerous neo-fascism in the 5-10 years proceeding and all it would take it one financial crisis to set the entire fucking place alight.
Tbf, if the world was more like Canada, it would be a much better place.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Why is this guy so popular? Still, anyone but Le Pen. Vote for Fillon reluctantly and turf him out later when things have calmed down. An election cycle is a short time compared to the destruction of the EU.
Caipirinha
Member
Destruction of the EU is a single financial crisis away sadly. So you're looking at about 1-4 years.
Franz Brötchen
Banned
What exactly are we calling a functioning left, though? I know that mainstream analysis has shifted away from the previously standard 'It's the economy stupid' pattern of explainging politics. But I strongly suspect that the true reason for e.g. Germany's relative stability (AfD still only as strong as either DieLinke (hard left) and the Greens) is that even though there is a general awareness of ever-growing rich-poor divide, that economically, Germany is fine due to somewhat competent enough economic policies.
I suspect there is simply no trust in France that Melenchon will actually improve economic outlooks, even for the 'working class'.
No one likes to elect losers, even obvious assholes appear to be more electable it seems. How else does one explain the foreseeable permanent Tory reign in the UK? Or the fact that Berlusconi was prime minister for quite a while long before Trump?
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Could they change it if they wanted to? I thought it was ordered by the Supreme Court.
Can you even consider people just might be against globalization?
Palette Swap
Member
More than anything, she needs people to not vote. Most of her party's strides over the last few years have been made thanks to a slight absolute growth coupled to a shitload of people not voting.
He's popular on the right, this was a primary, but everyone assumes the presidential election run off in may will be between the right and Le Pen.
His popularity on the right boils down to ideological purity (he's unrepentant about his neoliberalism and social conservatism) and not being Sarkozy. As such, he's seen as a great way to fight Le Pen by draining votes off of her.
That's not really true.
He's not against gay people, he just wants adopted children to have access to their real parents' identity because he believes every child should have the right to know his mother and his father, regardless of who raised them.
Disabled people, old people, long lasting or severely sick people AND people with low income will be covered by his reform. So basically he wants people who can afford it to pay their trivial colds.
The public Worker thing is right
Social welfare receivers are all fine.
He's not gonna touch people that are needy, and he wants to help people get back into the working habit as much as possible.
She has literally 70% of France against her, and probably even more than that now that Fillion is elected since he has common themes against immigration and islam, which is drives FN voters.
We vote twice in France, so nobody is ever gonna let her win. There's not electoral college here, she can't win. Just like Trump would have never won in France.
I don't think she will get the left on her side. She's just to toxic of a candidate. The only thing we will have to worry about is how many people turn out to vote against her in the second round of the presidential election if she makes it to the second round.
Also to anyone saying le pen has over a 50% chance of winning the election in the last major test for the FN before the 2017 presidential election which was the recent regional elections her party won zero regions despite getting over 25% of the vote while the republicans last major test before the 2016 presidential elections in the US which was the midterm elections they crushed the democrats. Le Pen may break 40% of the vote in the second round against Fillion but she still has a pretty low chance of becoming the next french president.
He was already the most despised President post war in french history.
AND JUST NOW they released a book with his confidence where he comments his own action in the most outrageous ways because he thought he was untouchable.
And after the release of this book, his own party imploded and now even the prime minister is considering running against him.
This is beyond terrible.
I think your underestimating how much people hate Muslims in Europe, fear and bigotry drove people to vote Trump, even those who would traditionally be on the left... seeing as Europe has a bigger problem with the inclusion of immigrants and the migrant crisis, I would say the "brown men are here to rape and kill our white women" narrative has been built up sufficiently to allow Le Pen a solid chance.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Frexit
Everyone has lost their fucking minds. Well, more like had their minds claimed by the madness that is Russia that never turned off cold war mode, but still.
I blame the privileged and sardonic too-cool-for-school politiphobes the world over that were too above everything to care about anything at the risk of being vulnerable by believing in something.
Apathy put an end to the old dream of the world. The pendulum that almost all of us mistook for an arrow pointing forward is swinging backwards. That was all just a black and white tv show anyways, get with the times, right?.
I blame the privileged and sardonic too-cool-for-school politiphobes the world over that were too above everything to care about anything at the risk of being vulnerable by believing in something.
Apathy put an end to the old dream of the world. The pendulum that almost all of us mistook for an arrow pointing forward is swinging backwards. That was all just a black and white tv show anyways, get with the times, right?.
Fillion will probably be able to siphon FN voters from her because he's a more moderate version of her on some of her favorite policy issues mostly(even though he's still awful). There's a reason to why the FN is scared of facing him. The only thing to worry about is voter turnout. The FN also seems to always do shit in elections were they look like they would be a threat.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
If only DSK wasn't such a fucking perv thinks would be so different...
First of all, Fillion also has a common theme of wanting to get the islam crisis under control, which tend to steal voters from FN, but if you think the left is gonna vote FN, you're insane.
They stand against literally every single value they have.
Muslims are not exactly a typical minority in France, pure "arabs" and muslims might have been decades ago, but many of them married french people and their kids that are now mixed are extremely numerous. They're the future, and even if they are not "muslims" themselves, they have family that is, and friends that know that, so there aren't as many racists as you think outside of old people.
There is a GENUINE concern though, that all the terrorists were french and muslims, so there is a problem in terms of security, integration and education, that needs to be looked at, and far more than what the left has been doing. But Fillion has addressed this.
A concerned left voter has no reason to vote Lepen over Fillion.
Switch Back 9
a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
Anecdotal, but even my most hardcore conservative friends are pro or at worst ambivalent about gay marriage. I don't think that will ever be an issue here again.
What are the extreme right's solutions against globalization though?
Sweeney Tom
Banned
France, you're Earth's last hope. Please don't fuck this up
Alx
Member
Sarkozy was kicked out of the primary on the first round. The funny thing is that a significant amount of left wing voters took part to that primary just to do that, get rid of Sarkozy.
So no, most French people wouldn't have him back, they had the opportunity and they liked Fillon better. Not that his politics are that different from Sarkozy, but at least he's less shady.
None.
I thought it had been established now that the far right doesn't base anything on actual factual evidence nor they have solution based in reality? John Oliver put it best, the alt-right believes that facts are equivalent to feelings...
.....and people can create feelings.
.....Therefore, people can create facts.
And that idea is fucking scary. The anti intellectualism is quite surreal in this day and age.
FYI the "manif pour tous" assholes are not part of François Fillion's team.
They're like the KKK supporting Trump, it's not like he has anything to do with it. He has said he won't go back on gay marriage, he just wants to alter the law regarding artificial pregnancies (which concerns a minority of homosexual couples), which is a step backward but overall sort of minor considering he is a catholic, and won't touch the other rights of homosexuals. He won't revoke gay people's ability to marry and adopt.
They're like the KKK supporting Trump, it's not like he has anything to do with it. He has said he won't go back on gay marriage, he just wants to alter the law regarding artificial pregnancies (which concerns a minority of homosexual couples), which is a step backward but overall sort of minor considering he is a catholic, and won't touch the other rights of homosexuals. He won't revoke gay people's ability to marry and adopt.
He has literally said that he wanted to ban adoption for gay couples. Like, words that came out of his mouth were literally "gay couples will have almost the same rights as heterosexual ones".
He want to ban "adoption plénière" (sorry, not sure how to say that in english) for gay couples, not all forms of adoption.
I remember when it was 'impossible' Trump could win because of the EC.
Globalized capitalism happened, and it's currently collapsing in on itself. But make no mistake, that's no bug, that's part of the system. It's supposed to work like that.
What the fuck is happening is simply people getting upset by the social repercussions of this inhuman process. Moloch is demanding its tribute; its loyal priests comply. Everyone else can and will get fucked.
National Socialism calling itself something else.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
It's important to mention that "adoption plénière" is the only type of adoption where the biological parents are erased and replaced by the adoptive parents in the child's records. Not to mention that this one is irrevocable whereas the "simple adoption" isn't.
Heh after Aubry's sketchy dealings during the PS' election I don't think she would've been much better tonne honest.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
I wonder how things would have gone if we had got Aubry or Royal instead of Hollande.
And_Gignac
Member
This. Le Pen just needs to play the Trump game of social conservatism / xenophobia + pandering to not professional workers and she may pull it off.
Wait and see, socialists will be voting Le Pen just to stop this fool.
One thing that trump had over Le Pen is that he seemed to be strong in the rust belt compared to Romney and McCain and he had a lot of republicans supporting him and most of the GOP was united under him. Le Pen and the FN are on their own island while it's likely the other French politcal parties will be the ones united against her in the second round of the french presidential elections.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Dude may play games with Le Pen if she faces him. It will be incredibly hard for her to beat him.
Look up the differences between simple and pleniere, notably in terms of succession and nationality and you'll understand why 90% of adoptions (that aren't intrafamilial) are pleniere.
Adoption simple is used when adopting your SO's child from another relationship for example, where keeping the biological mother/father is actually relevant. It makes no sense in other cases unless you don't consider gay couples "real parents".
Reminder that adoption is the only legal way for gay couples to have children in this country and this guy still wants to limit it.
And_Gignac
Member
White socialists won't vote for Fillon when the time for the second round comes. He is lthe worst option to stop Le Pen, imo. If anything, him being the "establishment" option against Le Pen will open a small glimpse of hope for the socialists if they choose wisely.
I know that but it's still false to simply say he wants to ban adoption for gay couples.
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