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[demosthenes]

Noone earns millions and especially billions of dollars. :lol The system is setup that way that makes it possible but that doesn't mean they earn it. Especially the fucking bankers who are so incompetent and greedy that don't deserve any of it. Not a single fucking cent.

They're fourth but it's also a very good point. In other words this is bullshit. They have enough money not to tax the banks or the rich and and they have enough to waste billions on defense making weapons dealers rich but they don't have enough to help the middle class (as per usual). I will enjoy it if the French destroy that rightwing prick. Don't let me down guys.

I know 3 families who have a net worth in the millions (1-5 million) that weren't there 20 years ago. They still live in a 200,000-300,000 house and are very humble for what they have. I doubt I'm alone. Just because you don't think it's possible to work your way up doesn't mean it's impossible.

I brought up your friends and family comment b/c for every share of stock they own in any company they want that company and those bankers to work as hard as possible to get every possible cent to raise their earnings per share so their stock price goes up.

edit: And you never answered my question, what do we do with all the Americans that were 'duped' into getting mortgages worth $400,000 with little or no income? Yes I know that bankers said "trust us, you can do it" but at some point someone needs to say, wait a second this is bullshit. There has to be personal responsibility.

 

[avatar299]

Yes.

no, and these protests are backed by the trade unions in france, so even if you do believe in the boogeyman behind all the tea party's you still don't have a point. Some of the unions in france are already willing to concede.

 

[Shanadeus]

Who do they want to pay for early retirement.

No one might have to pay for that early retirement, it's a bit more complex than that I think. There might for an example be other areas they might cut spending before "having to" raise the retirement age.

 

[Magni]

Question for France gaf, how much do you pay for your bureaucracy? here in Mexico we pay too much for the little they do, and when someone from the senate makes an initiative to lower their pay, all of them, even the opposite faction gang together to bring down such initiative, it's depressing, this year our president just created more high paying bureaucracy.

I'll post this here again for now and make a full answer when I get back from classes tonight. The problem is not so much the actual salaries as it is the social advantages, high bureaucracy and the special regimes are a much worse problem than the salary of your average fonctionnaire.

http://www.retraitegenerationsacrifiee.fr/IMG/gif/tableau_comparatif.gif[IMG]

[QUOTE=SomeDude]Anyone here that lives in France and has lived in the US, what are some of the pros and cons of both countries? what do you prefer about america over france, and vice versa.


thanks.[/QUOTE]

I cannot count the dozens of times I've been asked this, IRL or OL, but I don't have time right now to reply in a satisfactory way. I'll make a looooong post when I get back from classes tonight, I promise.

 

[itxaka]

Oh no! people are protesting for what they believe is not a fair thing! Who the fuck do they think they are trying to live better and gain rights?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

no, and these protests are backed by the trade unions in france, so even if you do believe in the boogeyman behind all the tea party's you still don't have a point. Some of the unions in france are already willing to concede.

The best thing powerful entities did is convince both sides that they are out there fighting for their own interests.

 

[NotWii]

French riot police clash with students as petrol stations run dry
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...with-students-as-petrol-stations-run-dry.html

Those poor hot students!

 

[Stridone]

Oh no! people are protesting for what they believe is not a fair thing! Who the fuck do they think they are trying to live better and gain rights?

People are fucking stupid and don't know what's best for them. Are you joking or just ignorant?

 

[Shanadeus]

MagniHarvald: Could you give a quick translation of that picture?
My french is sadly not up to the task.

 

[Kurtofan]

People are fucking stupid and don't know what's best for them. Are you joking or just ignorant?

Teachers are protesting this reform too,does that mean they're stupid too?

 

[Shanadeus]

French riot police clash with students as petrol stations run dry
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...with-students-as-petrol-stations-run-dry.html

Those poor hot students!

The opposition Socialists criticised François Fillon, the prime minister, for failing to speak to the unions over proposed pension reforms, which would raise minimum and full retirement ages to 62 and 67.

“We have a prime minister who thinks he is Churchill but who is only Thatcher,” said Harlem Désir, the Socialists’ deputy leader. “He is trying to make us think he is carrying out great reforms to save our economy but in fact he is smashing our social model.”​

I like this guy, hopefully his party will gain some votes next election.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Teachers are protesting this reform too,does that mean they're stupid too?

arent the allowed to retire earlier in france because they work for the state?

 

[dave is ok]

I know 3 families who have a net worth in the millions (1-5 million) that weren't there 20 years ago. They still live in a 200,000-300,000 house and are very humble for what they have. I doubt I'm alone. Just because you don't think it's possible to work your way up doesn't mean it's impossible.

It's possible. VERY VERY VERY VERY unlikely.

Just to demystify that number a little. Someone making 1 million dollars a year brings home over 80k per month. Over 20k per WEEK.

There are plenty of people on this board that make just over 20k in a YEAR.

It's a lot of money, no matter how many ways you try to say it isn't.

 

[Magni]

Question for France gaf, how much do you pay for your bureaucracy? here in Mexico we pay too much for the little they do, and when someone from the senate makes an initiative to lower their pay, all of them, even the opposite faction gang together to bring down such initiative, it's depressing, this year our president just created more high paying bureaucracy.

Wiki article (en)

Basically, in the special regimes, you pay less each month (taux de cotisation) to receive a much greater share during your retirement (base de calcul), you can work fewer years before retiring (durée de cotisation), and if you don't work for a year (or more!), that isn't taken into account (décote par année manquante)!

The public sector is better of than the private one as well, but not as much. As for high bureaucrats, you have what we call les parasites du système who, for example, worked for six months as a minister, and thus receive a minister's pension. If they were minister, mayor, representative, senator, etc etc, they get all those different pensions!

(thank goodness I take public transportation to class, even if there are quite some drivers on strike, they're mostly just late on purpose now (and proud of it, lazy fucks!), but at least we're not out of natural gas yet, so the buses aren't stuck. My friends who drive are fucked, some waited 90 minutes at the gas station last night, where the gas is being rationed (25€ max per person).. good thing we're 30 minutes from the Swiss border..)

edit: What is currently going is illegal and has always been illegal (blocus)

Une entrave concertée à la liberté du travail est passible d'un an de prison, 15 000 euros d'amende, portés à 3 ans et 45 000 euros en cas de violences, voies de fait ou dégradations. Le blocage des raffineries constitue en outre le délit d'entrave à la circulation, puni de 2 ans de prison et 4 500 euros d'amende (et de la perte de 6 points de permis…)

1 year of prison (3 if violent)
15 000 € fine (45k if violent)

As for the oil refinery problems, they risk losing 6 points on their driver's licence (half the maximum points) :lol, and most especially 2 years of prison and a 4 500 € fine.

edit2: second post coming after I fill up my empty stomach ^^

 

[Zzoram]

It's possible. VERY VERY VERY VERY unlikely.

Just to demystify that number a little. Someone making 1 million dollars a year brings home over 80k per month. Over 20k per WEEK.

There are plenty of people on this board that make just over 20k in a YEAR.

It's a lot of money, no matter how many ways you try to say it isn't.

You dont have to make a million a year to have a net worth in the millions. I know several people who were raised in poverty but got an education and have jobs making $200,000+ a year before bonus and saved up a few million for retirement. They live in normal middle class homes, drive non-luxury SUVs and don't seem to buy anything crazy.

 

[Zzoram]

French riot police clash with students as petrol stations run dry
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...with-students-as-petrol-stations-run-dry.html

Those poor hot students!

The rioting students knocked an Associated Press reporter off his bike and beat the crap out of him. That'll show the politicians!

 

[demosthenes]

It's possible. VERY VERY VERY VERY unlikely.

Just to demystify that number a little. Someone making 1 million dollars a year brings home over 80k per month. Over 20k per WEEK.

There are plenty of people on this board that make just over 20k in a YEAR.

It's a lot of money, no matter how many ways you try to say it isn't.

As Zzoram said the issue wasn't how much money was made a year. At least the way I interpreted fortified's comment was on the whole, and well he didn't correct me so I'll assume I was correct. The 3 families I spoke of don't make a million + a year but they're smart and they live rationally. 2 came from the middle class and one came from poverty / lower midle class (husband did, wife was a little better off).

And even if someone makes a million a year you can't just say he/she doesn't work for it. Just tax the fuck out of the rick fortified would say. He just wants to do that to fix all of his problems, what happens when the rich move away, who is he going to tax then?

 

[Dai Kaiju]

http://videos.tf1.fr/jt-we/les-lyceens-de-montpellier-mobilises-6102495.html

Lycéens fucking shit up in my home town on national news Friday night. Some fools went and torched garbage bins in front of the high school most of my friends went to (and would have gone to had I not moved to Paris), resulting in the evacuation of the high school (were classes were maintained as it is a private high school). They interviewed one of the students (who IMO is hotter than any of the stupid fools in the OP), and she just bashed all the "manifestants", glorious :lol

The fools have no idea what they're doing in the streets, they're just glad to skip class. I was for increasing it up to 65, so complaining about it going up to only 62 is pure bullshit to me.

<- 19y-o, currently in France.

I salute your ability to think beyond getting to skip classes.

 

[Reneledarker]

Thanks for the detailed explanation MagniHarvald.

Not as bad as Mexico, we have the most expensive bureaucracy on the world, around 77% of the bureaucracy budget goes to wages and benefits. It's depressing.

http://www.msemanal.com/node/3119

No wonder our qualification on the The Global Competitiveness Report it's too low when it comes to public institutions.

http://gcr.weforum.org/gcr2010/

 

[Subitai]

I don't see what the big deal is. When these ages were 1st set, most people didn't make it to their 60s anyway. Right now there are only 2 workers for each retiree down from 5 when it first started.

 

[Thagomizer]

What's up with Poland?

 

[Shanadeus]

I don't see what the big deal is. When these ages were 1st set, most people didn't make it to their 60s anyway. Right now there are only 2 workers for each retiree down from 5 when it first started.

And I'm sure those two workers are being just as productive as five workers were 50 years ago.

Stop simplifying things people.

 

[wolfmat]

What's up with Poland?

A lot of "contract work".

 

[Mistouze]

The lines at the gas stations are really eerie. Reminds me of the footage we would sometime get from USSR on TV when I was a kid.

But I can't really blame the guys for doing a strike, that's actually efficient. Though I need gas fuckers :lol

 

[gkryhewy]

And even if someone makes a million a year you can't just say he/she doesn't work for it. Just tax the fuck out of the rick fortified would say. He just wants to do that to fix all of his problems, what happens when the rich move away, who is he going to tax then?

Where are the rich going to move to? Somalia? We have the lowest tax rates for the wealthy of any advanced country on earth, all while the gap between the wealthiest and everyone else just keeps getting wider.

I'm not suggesting returning to the marginal tax rates of noted communist Dwight Eisenhower, but moving back toward the rates of famed socialist Ronald Reagan would do a world of good.

 

[Ether_Snake]

It's always hilarious when people say taxing the rich will cause them to go away. Here's a few :lol :lol :lol

Yeah, sure, they'll move their whole family, sell their house(s), and start a new life in a foreign country cause the goberment raised the taxes! They'll have to make new friends, find new jobs, work with people who never worked with them, maybe even learn another language! And then your choices are actually really limited as far as finding a country that won't tax you even moreso.

And more than anything, if they move away so be it, there's other people who will do their work anyway, and maybe even better. If you are afraid to lose doctors or some such you could always have a special income tax deduction for at-risk sectors.

So NO EXCUSES, raise taxes on the rich, period.

And here are a few more :lol :lol :lol

 

[Atrus]

Have you met many 60 yr olds? They should not be left in charge of ANYTHING, let them enjoy their twilight years instead of making them slave away.

Why should I care if they should enjoy their twilight years?

 

[empty vessel]

Why should I care if they should enjoy their twilight years?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule

Or, alternatively, you're shortsighted. This is the equivalent of asking why you should care if you are able to enjoy your twilight years. Should you? If not, you're irrational, and you can be safely dismissed.

 

[Atrus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule

Or, alternatively, you're shortsighted. This is the equivalent of asking why you should care if you are able to enjoy your twilight years. Should you? If not, you're irrational, and you can be safely dismissed.

Why I should care about my own future is not the same as to why I should care about your future, at least so long as we live in reality and not some sort of Utopian nonsense where I pin my existence and yours with exactly the same value.

In what way do you impact my future exactly? What you think, what you do, how you feel, what you say, your very existence itself is immaterial. If anything, my goal would be to reduce the magnitude at which your existence impacts my own.

 

[SomeDude]

I cannot count the dozens of times I've been asked this, IRL or OL, but I don't have time right now to reply in a satisfactory way. I'll make a looooong post when I get back from classes tonight, I promise.

Thanks

 

[fortified_concept]

no, and these protests are backed by the trade unions in france, so even if you do believe in the boogeyman behind all the tea party's you still don't have a point. Some of the unions in france are already willing to concede.

No? The tea parties are not organized and backed by Fox News? Really?

As for comparing corporations to unions what can I say, anyone can make judgments on that one. Comparing democratic organizations that represent the workers to authoritarian organizations that represent profit, greed and the upper class as if they're both bad? Ahahahahaha

 

[harriet the spy]

I cannot count the dozens of times I've been asked this, IRL or OL, but I don't have time right now to reply in a satisfactory way. I'll make a looooong post when I get back from classes tonight, I promise.

You're French-American currently living in France, right? Are you planning to stay there after your studies? How long did you live in the US, out of curiosity?

I am somewhat your inverse- I am French and was in France until I was 20, then moved to the US (I am now 28, so I have spent roughly a fourth of my life here). I get that question a lot too :lol .I do miss France a whole lot, though.

Btw, in the video you sent, that protester brunette was hotter than the anti-protester blonde

On the topic of protests, for those who claim that as life expectancy goes longer, you need to work more, the argument against this is that as technology keeps increasing, we need to work much less for the same standard of living (and many in France feel that the need for consuming always more needs to be 'curbed' and stabilized, so that goes even further in the direction of 'less work').

Nevertheless, while I do find myself cheering for anti-sarkozy protests in general, on this particular topic, I don't quite think it's realistic yet.

 

[NotWii]

Why should I care if they should enjoy their twilight years?

Don't you plan to live til your twilight years? Would you rather continue working fulltime at 60 and help accelerate your own disability and death? What is the point of life if you have nothing but work.

Why would you force them to suffer when you know it's harder for older people to work at that age? Don't you have family members in that range? Do you force them to do everything for themselves, make your grandma do her own shopping? The idea of community is lost on you.
Your selfish attitude is disgusting.

 

[Broken Arrow]

Thanks for the detailed explanation MagniHarvald.

Not as bad as Mexico, we have the most expensive bureaucracy on the world, around 77% of the bureaucracy budget goes to wages and benefits. It's depressing.

http://www.msemanal.com/node/3119

No wonder our qualification on the The Global Competitiveness Report it's too low when it comes to public institutions.

http://gcr.weforum.org/gcr2010/

Our bureaucracy and all the nasty unions (PEMEX, CNTE, SNTE, STUNAM, etc.) behind it are the main reason our beautiful country is in the shit hole. Really sad.

 

[avatar299]

Don't you plan to live til your twilight years? Would you rather continue working fulltime at 60 and help accelerate your own disability and death? What is the point of life if you have nothing but work.

Why would you force them to suffer when you know it's harder for older people to work at that age? Don't you have family members in that range? Do you force them to do everything for themselves, make your grandma do her own shopping? The idea of community is lost on you.
Your selfish attitude is disgusting.

So you are just going to assume he can't save his own money and retire when he wants?

 

[fortified_concept]

So you are just going to assume he can't save his own money and retire when he wants?

And you're assuming that he'll manage to save that money or that his 401k won't lose all the money he saved.

 

[avatar299]

And you're assuming that he'll manage to save that money or that his 401k won't lose all the money he saved.

I don't see any reason to assume he can't save money. You have any evidence to prove why Atrus can't do what others have?

 

[badcrumble]

Why I should care about my own future is not the same as to why I should care about your future, at least so long as we live in reality and not some sort of Utopian nonsense where I pin my existence and yours with exactly the same value.

In what way do you impact my future exactly? What you think, what you do, how you feel, what you say, your very existence itself is immaterial. If anything, my goal would be to reduce the magnitude at which your existence impacts my own.

are you deliberately trying to sound like the final boss of a jrpg or something

 

[fortified_concept]

I don't see any reason to assume he can't save money. You have any evidence to prove why Atrus can't do what others have?

I don't know, why many people can't? He only has confidence that he could, that doesn't mean that he will. As for 401k's: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-solin/the-3-trillion-401k-rip-o_b_442974.html

So tell me what happens if he doesn't save that money or the 401k turns out to be a failure? (or to be more precise a scam like many of them are)

 

[badcrumble]

So you are just going to assume he can't save his own money and retire when he wants?

This is pointless to introduce to the discussion unless you either (a) think that every single person is capable of such savings or (b) admit that you think that anyone who doesn't save up enough money deserves to eat dog food for the rest of their life.

 

[videogamer]

I guess they don't count because you don't like them

When did he say that he did not like Americans?

 

[harriet the spy]

are you deliberately trying to sound like the final boss of a jrpg or something

:lol
Can't 'unread it'. Cue the uematsu music.

 

[avatar299]

I don't know, why many people can't? He only has confidence that he could, that doesn't mean that he will. As for 401k's: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-solin/the-3-trillion-401k-rip-o_b_442974.html

So tell me what happens if he doesn't save that money or the 401k turns out to be a failure? (or to be more precise a scam like many of them are)

because the only way to save money is through a 401k. It's totally impossible to own a business, invest in markets, etc etc.

Millions of people have gone through 401ks and made them work, even if that was the only thing they did. Considering the many ways to save money that is a pretty weak argument.

This is pointless to introduce to the discussion unless you either (a) think that every single person is capable of such savings or (b) admit that you think that anyone who doesn't save up enough money deserves to eat dog food for the rest of their life.

a and b are not realistic situations here. if I concede that Atrus, like you i presume, can't save money for the future, he will still have his aid, just years later. This isn't killing welfare in France, it's moving the year up.

Are you, and Fortified and Wii saying that the only way people can enjoy their twilight years is by waiting on the govt.?

 

[fortified_concept]

because the only way to save money is through a 401k. It's totally impossible to own a business, invest in markets, etc etc.

Millions of people have gone through 401ks and made them work, even if that was the only thing they did. Considering the many ways to save money that is a pretty weak argument.

a and b are not realistic situations here. if I concede that Atrus, like you i presume, can't save money for the future, he will still have his aid, just years later. This isn't killing welfare in France, it's moving the year up.

Are you, and Fortified and Wii saying that the only way people can enjoy their twilight years is by waiting on the govt.?

The majority relies on 401ks and as I pointed 401ks have let many people down. Others either failed at life or had to pay for the bloodsucking hospitals and went bankrupt or were just unlucky. They don't have money and they're too old to work or too old for most employers to hire them. Please explain to us what these people should do now.

 

[expy]

Why are 20 yr olds complaining about retiring at 60?

 

[TheDrizzlerJ11]

Why are 20 yr olds complaining about retiring at 60?

If they don't when they have time it will just go up the next time this happens and they won't have the time. Protesting is kind of the youth's duty, adults have too much responsibility and not enough time to spend it protesting.

 

[fortified_concept]

Why are 20 yr olds complaining about retiring at 60?

Because France has better and more informed youth than most countries. They're smart citizens that care about the future and not just what affects them right now.

 

[avatar299]

The majority relies on 401ks and as I pointed 401ks have let many people down.

As much as they have helped people. The secret to a 401k is to not depend on it. Don't take money out of it. That is how most 401ks fail. They become overinflated during boom periods, people put debt on themselves and the 401k goes bust

Others either failed at life or had to pay for the bloodsucking hospitals and went bankrupt or were just unlucky. They don't have money and they're too old to work or too old for most employers to hire them. Please explain to us what these people should do now.

So your only argument is Atrus will get sick or fail? Because no one has ever had a failed business and turned it around, or had a medical issue and still led a comfortable lifestyle.

Why are 20 yr olds complaining about retiring at 60?

Their fighting for their twilight years.

 

[expy]

They just have to not hire all those protesters, that way, they won't need to retire. Just hire imported cheap labor. :lol

 

[avatar299]

If they don't when they have time it will just go up the next time this happens and they won't have the time. Protesting is kind of the youth's duty, adults have too much responsibility and not enough time to spend it protesting.

So uh, where were the french youth when their govt took on more and more debt? Where were they when France continued to increase one of the largest military budgets in the world?

Oh wait, the French govt wasn't cutting anything to save money, hence they didn't give a shit, and they still wouldn't give a shit if France continued to spend. What great citizens.