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[TheDrizzlerJ11]

So uh, where were the french youth when their govt took on more and more debt? Where were they when France continued to increase one of the largest military budgets in the world?

Oh wait, the French govt wasn't cutting anything to save money, hence they didn't give a shit, and they still wouldn't give a shit if France continued to spend. What great citizens.

You're quoting the wrong guy man. Try the one after me, I'm not glorifying the French just defending the youth protesting something that affects them later. I wasn't the guy who said the youth of France is better and more informed.

U.S. citizens can't strike in most industries because we'll be replaced by immigrants who just take whatever because in the end it's still a better life. I'm in the restaurant business, I know this doesn't apply across the board.

 

[fortified_concept]

As much as they have helped people. The secret to a 401k is to not depend on it. Don't take money out of it. That is how most 401ks fail. They become overinflated during boom periods, people put debt on themselves and the 401k goes bust

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122342685954113657.html

So your only argument is Atrus will get sick or fail? Because no one has ever had a failed business and turned it around, or had a medical issue and still led a comfortable lifestyle.

I think you know where this discussion is going so you deliberately avoid to reply playing dense and purposely not considering a scenario that has happened to many people.

 

[avatar299]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122342685954113657.html

No way, really? When markets go through recessions,bad things happen? No shit.

Still doesn't disprove anything. By the way a lot of the "wealth" in 401k lost during 2008/early 2009 have been building back as Wall Street went forward, so maybe a 2008 article about 401ks isn't the best argument as to why it is impossible for someone to save. Especially considering that

IRA
Basic Savings account
Investments
Property

are also perfectly valid ways to save money, that when combined with a strong 401k will still give you plenty of cash for when you are older.

I'll ask again, are you saying that the only way people can enjoy their twilight years is by waiting on the govt.?

think you know where this discussion is going so you deliberately avoid to reply playing dense and purposely not considering a scenario that has happened to many people.

Where is this discussion going Fortified? That some people need govt aid to survive? Fine. What does that got to do with assuming it is impossible to retire with your own money, which is what you are saying?

 

[empty vessel]

Why I should care about my own future is not the same as to why I should care about your future, at least so long as we live in reality and not some sort of Utopian nonsense where I pin my existence and yours with exactly the same value.

It's actually really simple. Policy--or law--is generally applicable. A policy raising the retirement age will not exempt you. It will include you. You are the subject of the policy. So while I am disturbed that you might be so anti-social that you reject the concept of society entirely and what might be best for others within it, I'm just amazed that you are so shortsighted that you wouldn't even consider your own interests.

 

[fortified_concept]

No way, really? When markets go through recessions,bad things happen? No shit.

Still doesn't disprove anything. By the way a lot of the "wealth" in 401k lost during 2008/early 2009 have been building back as Wall Street went forward, so maybe a 2008 article about 401ks isn't the best argument as to why it is impossible for someone to save. Especially considering that

IRA
Basic Savings account
Investments
Property

are also perfectly valid ways to save money, that when combined with a strong 401k will still give you plenty of cash for when you are older.

I'll ask again, are you saying that the only way people can enjoy their twilight years is by waiting on the govt.?


Where is this discussion going Fortified? That some people need govt aid to survive? Fine. What does that to do with assuming it is impossible to retire with your own money, which is what you are doing?

The discussion is going to the fact that you're willing to let people suffer when they're weak and need society the most because you don't give a fuck. It's where the discussion always goes with libertarians. You have zero empathy for your fellow citizens, yet you believe in country as if that country isn't a society, a group if you will. Guess what happens in a group: People help each other.

 

[videogamer]

Avatar299: So why do you think Horsebite does not like Americans? It was a pretty incendiary thing for you to say.

 

[avatar299]

Avatar299: So why do you think Horsebite does not like Americans? It was a pretty incendiary thing for you to say.

I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about the tea parties. Sorry if it went over your head.

The discussion is going to the fact that you're willing to let people suffer when they're weak and need society the most because you don't give a fuck. It's where the discussion always goes with libertarians. You have zero empathy for your fellow citizens, yet you believe in country as if that country isn't a society, a group if you will. Guess what happens in a group: People help each other.

Suffer? Working 2 more years for welfare until they die is suffering? I have plenty of empathy, just not for people like you.

By the way, you still haven't answered the question. I'll ask for the 3rd time.

are you saying that the only way people can enjoy their twilight years is by waiting on the govt.?

 

[fortified_concept]

By the way, you still haven't answered the question. I'll ask for the 3rd time.

You're right I'll reply to the entire first part of your previous post and explain my last one (which I thought was pretty self explainable).

No way, really? When markets go through recessions,bad things happen? No shit.

Still doesn't disprove anything. By the way a lot of the "wealth" in 401k lost during 2008/early 2009 have been building back as Wall Street went forward, so maybe a 2008 article about 401ks isn't the best argument as to why it is impossible for someone to save. Especially considering that

IRA
Basic Savings account
Investments
Property

are also perfectly valid ways to save money, that when combined with a strong 401k will still give you plenty of cash for when you are older.

I'll ask again, are you saying that the only way people can enjoy their twilight years is by waiting on the govt.?

First of all this isn't the first time it happened and 401ks were drained because of Wall Street fuckups. It happened just a few years ago with the dot com bubble and will keep happening.

Second I don't see you providing a link claiming that the accounts went back to normal and you probably won't because many of these accounts were making risky investments since they're scams designed to make investment firms who don't give a fuck about the average worker, rich. Third, the government guarantees pensions unlike 401k and your other solutions which are preeeeeetty risky (property values and investments also crashed and burned btw, the only valid option is keeping money to the bank which means you lose money because of the inflation).

Fourth you completely avoid to answer what happens to the people that either fucked up their lives at some point and couldn't gather enough money, or went bankrupt (very common), or had an accident and barely made a living, or were too poor to manage to put some money on the side etc etc. They're screwed that's what happens under your "solution". And this is where this post comes:

The discussion is going to the fact that you're willing to let people suffer when they're weak and need society the most because you don't give a fuck. It's where the discussion always goes with libertarians. You have zero empathy for your fellow citizens, yet you believe in country as if that country isn't a society, a group if you will. Guess what happens in a group: People help each other.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Omelette du fromage.

.

 

[NotWii]

Hahahahahha

Rage spills out on to the streets of France... as Sarkozy and Carla Bruni live the high life
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...a-Bruni-live-high-life.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

[Zzoram]

Hahahahahha

Rage spills out on to the streets of France... as Sarkozy and Carla Bruni live the high life
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...a-Bruni-live-high-life.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

It costs a lot of money for an old man to maintain a young trophy wife like that.

 

[TheDrizzlerJ11]

What the fuck does burning down universities accomplish? Wow...

 

[fortified_concept]

Hahahahahha

Rage spills out on to the streets of France... as Sarkozy and Carla Bruni live the high life
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...a-Bruni-live-high-life.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

£660 a day on fresh flowers. Disgusting.

 

[TheDrizzlerJ11]

£660 a day on fresh flowers. Disgusting.

I'm not defending the government but..
Burning a school to rubble. Disgusting.

 

[Zzoram]

What the fuck does burning down universities accomplish? Wow...

It manages to waste taxpayer dollars when they have to rebuild it.

 

[fortified_concept]

I'm not defending the government but..
Burning a school to rubble. Disgusting.

Great comparison. Comparing a rich prick wasting the taxpayers' money to the rightful rage of the protesters and some isolated incidents. And in the end if you have to break some eggs to make an omelette I suggest breaking the fucking eggs instead of sitting on your couch starving to death.

 

[Zzoram]

Great comparison. Comparing a rich prick wasting the taxpayers' money to the rightful rage of the protesters and some isolated incidents. And in the end if you have to break some eggs to make an omelette I suggest breaking the fucking eggs instead of sitting on your couch starving to death.

Burning down university buildings isn't some small thing. It'll cost hundreds of millions of dollars to clear the rubble, replace all the buildings, replace all the equipment, not to mention taking several years. How do you think the students who were enrolled at that university feel? They just lost their degrees, or at least had it delayed for years, for no fault of their own.

 

[dalin80]

They should make a national poll to sort this out-


A- Work 2 years longer
B- pay higher taxes
C- execute everyone on their 70th birthday

If the french people are so determined to have there say let them.

 

[fortified_concept]

Burning down university buildings isn't some small thing. It'll cost hundreds of millions of dollars to clear the rubble, replace all the buildings, replace all the equipment, not to mention taking several years. How do you think the students who were enrolled at that university feel? They just lost their degrees, or at least had it delayed for years, for no fault of their own.

I like how you're willing to ignore how the entire country feels because Sarkozy is stripping them of their rights (btw these aren't first measures the prick has taken) but you're so interested in the students. Yeah, the students will feel bad just like many people have problems because of the strikes but the big picture is that these students are also affected by these measures and if they destroy that prick it will be better for the entire country. These students will probably have other options because France has a pretty good educational system that they secured and protected by fighting for it unlike, let's say, USA where noone demonstrates and all students feel bad because the system is shit.

Demonstrations sometimes result to violence and public unrest creates many problems but in the grand scheme of things they're much better than the alternative. That's how your predecessors secured the rights you enjoy and why modern USA is losing them today. Because a country needs conscious citizens that will fight for their rights not sit on their couches and whine because a school burned when the entire future of their country is burning.

 

[seb]

Burning down university buildings isn't some small thing. It'll cost hundreds of millions of dollars to clear the rubble, replace all the buildings, replace all the equipment, not to mention taking several years. How do you think the students who were enrolled at that university feel? They just lost their degrees, or at least had it delayed for years, for no fault of their own.

It's not a university, it's a "collège", that's for 10 to 14yo. They'll be dispatched in other neraby colleges I'm sure. That being said, yes it's bad and it's a criminal action not linked to the current protests.
The current actions are more in line with "disrupt economy", like, say, the Toulouse airport blokade this morning (I work right next to it, took me 45min on the last kilometer to get there, FFUUUU :lol ). I'm not complaining though. Our government needs a reality check on who is actually running the economy every now and then (workers). That's just how France works: government proposes unacceptable law, uninon protests, the law is toned down a little, we reach a compromise and we move on.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Yeah, sure, they'll move their whole family, sell their house(s), and start a new life in a foreign country cause the goberment raised the taxes! They'll have to make new friends, find new jobs, work with people who never worked with them, maybe even learn another language! And then your choices are actually really limited as far as finding a country that won't tax you even moreso.

Come to Brussels, Luxembourg or Switzerland and i can assur you that a boatload of people already made the jump with Mitterand ans ISF
I wen to high school (Lycée Français de Bruxelles Jean Monnet) with the sons of the boss of Carrefour, Intermarché, Faconnable, Celio, Faconnable etc with people spending like Tens of thousands of euros for the 18th birthday of their son.

The Highly paid professionnal will be able to move without that much trouble, i had to relocate to Frankfurt for a while and i didn't blink to accept it
i might have the opportunity to move to HK and believe me i'll jump on it right away

the one who will pay for everyone are the middle class that can't move (boss of SMBs and low and middle clerck)

 

[itxaka]

People are fucking stupid and don't know what's best for them. Are you joking or just ignorant?

Totally agree. Dictatorship should be enforced in france.

 

[fanboi]

All this about 2 more years untill retirement?!

Jesus christ france :lol

 

[nib95]

All this about 2 more years untill retirement?!

Jesus christ france :lol

Tell me about it. The amount that'll be required to pay for all the damage to both infrastructure, buildings AND the French economy over all this probably just made things a lot worse...

 

[Purkake4]

I'm surprised no one posted this yet:

 

[iamblades]

You're right I'll reply to the entire first part of your previous post and explain my last one (which I thought was pretty self explainable).




First of all this isn't the first time it happened and 401ks were drained because of Wall Street fuckups. It happened just a few years ago with the dot com bubble and will keep happening.

Second I don't see you providing a link claiming that the accounts went back to normal and you probably won't because many of these accounts were making risky investments since they're scams designed to make investment firms who don't give a fuck about the average worker, rich. Third, the government guarantees pensions unlike 401k and your other solutions which are preeeeeetty risky (property values and investments also crashed and burned btw, the only valid option is keeping money to the bank which means you lose money because of the inflation).

Fourth you completely avoid to answer what happens to the people that either fucked up their lives at some point and couldn't gather enough money, or went bankrupt (very common), or had an accident and barely made a living, or were too poor to manage to put some money on the side etc etc. They're screwed that's what happens under your "solution". And this is where this post comes:

You do realize that a 401k is just a retirement plan that allows you to defer taxes and for your employer to match you right?

401k has nothing to do with the types of investments you choose. 401k doesn't mean 'bet your life savings on the stock market'. Everyone knows that is a completely stupid thing to do, especially if you are nearing retirement.

Your investment options are typically more limited in an employer run 401k than say an IRA, but even the most basic 401k plan I've seen has had at least a handful of nearly risk free investment options, even if they are only various government bond funds. Plus with the advent of ETFs you can invest in securities that cover basically every single type of financial vehicle on the market.

Infact it's actually better to use your 401k or roth to invest in lower risk income paying securities like bond funds or preferred stock due to the fact they are tax deferred or exempt, while you can keep your common stock outside your retirement fund and take advantage of the benefits of paying cap gains taxes rather than income taxes on dividends (although this benefit decreases substantially after this year).

 

[AkuMifune]

I'm surprised no one posted this yet:

:lol That's awesome.

But by all means young spoiled children of France, keep torching your country for the unforgivable action of increasing the retirement age to something more in line with the rest of the world. l'horreur!

 

[Carnby]

Faping to French protesters?

you guys need to get girlfriends, get laid, find porn. do anything to appear less desperate.

 

[wolfmat]

What the fuck does burning down universities accomplish? Wow...

It's like in a discussion where the other guy suddenly pulls a knife and stabs you in the eye. Sure, it's unfair and dumb, but it's hard to argue at that point.

But by all means young spoiled children of France, keep torching your country for the unforgivable action of increasing the retirement age to something more in line with the rest of the world. l'horreur!

I think it's obvious that this is really not that much about the retirement age anymore. It's a good ol' meltdown, rather.

 

[gofreak]

In some ways I think the French are spoilt, in others I admire them for standing up to even 'small' infringements.

Raising the retirement age to 62? It's been raised from 65 to 67 or more in a number of other countries recently with barely a whimper. In my own country we're facing serious cutbacks over bank bailouts but I've yet to see one serious protest, and I doubt I will...sometimes I wish the people here were a little more 'greek/french'.

 

[fortified_concept]

In some ways I think the French are spoilt, in others I admire them for standing up to even 'small' infringements.

Raising the retirement age to 62? It's been raised from 65 to 67 or more in a number of other countries recently with barely a whimper. In my own country we're facing serious cutbacks over bank bailouts but I've yet to see one serious protest, and I doubt I will...sometimes I wish the people here were a little more 'greek/french'.

It is being raised from 65 to 67. The other option of 60 to 62 is not realistic for the majority of the youth. As always the media are doing a horrible job at informing.

You do realize that a 401k is just a retirement plan that allows you to defer taxes and for your employer to match you right?

401k has nothing to do with the types of investments you choose. 401k doesn't mean 'bet your life savings on the stock market'. Everyone knows that is a completely stupid thing to do, especially if you are nearing retirement.

Your investment options are typically more limited in an employer run 401k than say an IRA, but even the most basic 401k plan I've seen has had at least a handful of nearly risk free investment options, even if they are only various government bond funds. Plus with the advent of ETFs you can invest in securities that cover basically every single type of financial vehicle on the market.

Infact it's actually better to use your 401k or roth to invest in lower risk income paying securities like bond funds or preferred stock due to the fact they are tax deferred or exempt, while you can keep your common stock outside your retirement fund and take advantage of the benefits of paying cap gains taxes rather than income taxes on dividends (although this benefit decreases substantially after this year).

I know what 401ks are. I posted a link in the previous page that pretty much explains what happens with them: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-solin/the-3-trillion-401k-rip-o_b_442974.html

In theory it should work but as per usual free market greed fucks up everything.

 

[AkuMifune]

I think it's obvious that this is really not that much about the retirement age anymore. It's a good ol' meltdown, rather.

Yeah, it seems to be spiraling scarily out of control, but its so hard to take it seriously or feel any pity when the instigation is something so minor, and arguably an overdue necessity anyway.

 

[jorma]

Yeah, it seems to be spiraling scarily out of control, but its so hard to take it seriously or feel any pity when the instigation is something so minor, and arguably an overdue necessity anyway.

Sarkozy is not by any means a minor douchebag though.

 

[G.O.O.]

Fun fact : every goddamn media is telling us that we give our country a bad press.

They did it aswell with the Roma policy, but this time it sounds like a bad thing.

 

[SimpleDesign]

I hope to see some riots over here when Republicans try to raise social security's retirement age to 70.

 

[bigswords]

I find it strange, even if you raise the retirement age from 60 to 62 will any company actually let you work till that age?

 

[fortified_concept]

I find it strange, even if you raise the retirement age from 60 to 62 will any company actually let you work till that age?

Or 67 for that matter. My grandfather around that age stopped driving because he kept getting lost and disoriented. And they want to put people to work at that age. :lol

What a pitiful state humanity has come to. Even in ancient tribes the old were being taken care of.

 

[Alx]

Yeah, it seems to be spiraling scarily out of control

Nah, it's not really unusual (unfortunately). For each big demonstration, there are people taking the opportunity to burn cars and break shop windows. It may sound impressive but there is no real escalation.
The most annoying thing at the moment is the disturbance in public transports and fuel availability (which is increased by people fearing more availability problems, and trying to stock as much as possible).

 

[Walshicus]

Or 67 for that matter. My grandfather around that age stopped driving because he kept getting lost and disoriented. And they want to put people to work at that age. :lol

What a pitiful state humanity has come to. Even in ancient tribes the old were being taken care of.

Yeah, but they didn't live to 80+ back then.

Sorry, you're being very naive here. People are living longer; either we pay more tax to support them or we all work longer. It's just that bloody simple. Retirement age NEEDS to scale with life expectancy and I can't believe that someone who can master a keyboard can't figure that out.

And FYI I'm a socialist.

 

[Zenith]

Great comparison. Comparing a rich prick wasting the taxpayers' money to the rightful rage of the protesters and some isolated incidents. And in the end if you have to break some eggs to make an omelette I suggest breaking the fucking eggs instead of sitting on your couch starving to death.

I like how you're willing to ignore how the entire country feels because Sarkozy is stripping them of their rights (btw these aren't first measures the prick has taken) but you're so interested in the students. Yeah, the students will feel bad just like many people have problems because of the strikes but the big picture is that these students are also affected by these measures and if they destroy that prick it will be better for the entire country. These students will probably have other options because France has a pretty good educational system that they secured and protected by fighting for it unlike, let's say, USA where noone demonstrates and all students feel bad because the system is shit.

Demonstrations sometimes result to violence and public unrest creates many problems but in the grand scheme of things they're much better than the alternative. That's how your predecessors secured the rights you enjoy and why modern USA is losing them today. Because a country needs conscious citizens that will fight for their rights not sit on their couches and whine because a school burned when the entire future of their country is burning.

the way you're just willing to gloss over violence and make proclamations about some grand plan is just disgusting.

 

[fortified_concept]

Yeah, but they didn't live to 80+ back then.

Sorry, you're being very naive here. People are living longer; either we pay more tax to support them or we all work longer. It's just that bloody simple. Retirement age NEEDS to scale with life expectancy and I can't believe that someone who can master a keyboard can't figure that out.

And FYI I'm a socialist.

We've had that discussion in the previous pages. Yeah life expectancy has increased (not as much as statistics show but it has) but productivity has skyrocketed too. I don't believe that if the system wasn't so fucked up we couldn't afford it. Afterall putting borderline senile people at work doesn't achieve much.

 

[fortified_concept]

the way you're just willing to gloss over violence and make proclamations about some grand plan is just disgusting.

And they say leftists aren't realists... It's the historic truth that the working class earned their rights through tough battles, violence and bloodshed. The ruling class never backs down unless they feel like they're losing control of the situation and they only do after they've resorted to violence themselves through "legal" means. I hate unnecessary violence but if it's a choice between that and injustice I'll choose violence. The world isn't rainbows and unicorns, deal with it.

 

[SmokyDave]

And they say leftists aren't realists... It's the historic truth that the working class earned their rights through tough battles, violence and bloodshed. The ruling class never backs down unless they feel like they're losing control of the situation and they only do after they've resorted to violence themselves through "legal" means. I hate unnecessary violence but if it's a choice between that and injustice I'll choose violence. The world isn't rainbows and unicorns, deal with it.

None of that flowery prose changes the fact that burning down colleges is fucking stupid.

It solves nothing. It damages the credibility of the protesters (as do the unemployed hanger-ons bricking windows). I know you think that progress comes in the form of burning buildings but nowadays, it really doesn't.

 

[Roude Leiw]

I'm surprised no one posted this yet:

is that real?

 

[G.O.O.]

Also, it should be mentioned that the government tries really fucking hard to achieve peace by making everyone feel unsafe and calling "inconvenient truth" everything that is just inconvenient...

Plus lies and various scandals, but we're used to this by now.

 

[fortified_concept]

None of that flowery prose changes the fact that burning down colleges is fucking stupid.

It solves nothing. It damages the credibility of the protesters (as do the unemployed hanger-ons bricking windows). I know you think that progress comes in the form of burning buildings but nowadays, it really doesn't.

Of course it's stupid. The target with this kind of protests is to harm the economic interests of the ruling class, burning down schools makes no sense at all. But do I wholeheartedly agree with these protests even if incidents like these exist? Fuck yes I do.

 

[SmokyDave]

Of course it's stupid. The target with this kind of protests is to harm the economic interests of the ruling class, burning down schools is counter-productive, it makes no sense at all. But do I wholeheartedly agree with these protests even if incidents like these exist? Fuck yes I do.

That should not be the aim of a protest, that should be the aim of a riot. Fortunately, I doubt that the bulk of these protesters are interested in harming the economic interests of anybody (other than themselves).

I agree with protesting, I don't know where I stand on this particular issue as I'm not familiar enough with Frances economy, industry, birth rates or the state of their welfare system. I can never agree with the destruction of private property in order to further ones aims.

Spoiler

I'm just miserable because I'll die long before I'm eligible for retirement.

 

[Prine]

Retirement age isnt too bad but raising pension age to 67 is absurd.

 

[fortified_concept]

....aaaaaaaand here comes the violence from the ruling class through legal means. The prick has just ordered the police to break the protesters blockades in the fuel depots.

 

[rpmurphy]

I'm surprised no one posted this yet:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/Car Fires in France-map.jpg

Casual mode.