GoldenEye 007
Member
I promise it really isn't that simple. Likely what would happen is that OU would get sued and then lose in open court.
Fraternity chanting the n-word
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Bobby Roberts
Banned
It wasn't passive aggressive. It was just aggressive. I was calling you out for wading in here specifically to defend these racist shitheels in any fashion. It wasn't couched in confusing terminology or obfuscated. I straight up said your decision to come in here and expend energy trying to argue against the expulsion of these kids from a state university was fucked.
I think it could be argued. I don't think it's so easily written off. I think flat-out disallowing any possibility of it being legally upheld is incorrect, and a bad choice in argument. I don't think you're actually educating anyone, and I wouldn't be surprised if the one ACLU link you posted wasn't googled up all of 2 minutes before you posted it.
It's also not a given that the students specifically identifiable as smiling and singing along would even sue for readmission to the school.
Every student agrees to a code of conduct policy which can negate their admittance to a college if broken.
entremet
Member
It could be easily argued that code of conducts are not legally binding. Moreover, the code of conduct may not even have provisions for expulsion, just discipline, which could just be suspension of sorts, community service, public apologies.
I would personally love to see them expelled, but I'm skeptical of the legal grounds.
You can basically say whatever you want with no legal ramifications, aside from shit like yelling "FIRE" in a public place.
This doesn't mean your employer can't fire your ass for harming the company image. Or that your school can't discipline you for being a dumb ass.
Freedom of speech means you can speak out against the government, say hateful things, speak for or against religion, etc. without fear of being arrested or charged with a crime.
Freedom of speech does not apply to the private sector. You can tell your boss to "Fuck Off" and say " Oh it's okay, I was just exercising my right to Freedom of Speech." That shit won't fly. If you get caught on video saying some dumb hateful shit and a potential employer finds it on YouTube, you're likely not getting hired.
TimeEffect
Member
What the fuck? People do this together?
Who's the genius recording? Or was he/she exposing these fools?
Who's the genius recording? Or was he/she exposing these fools?
You really think a school isn't going to reserve the right to expel a student due to conduct? That's not how it works.
entremet
Member
Vermillion
Banned
I'd love to respond to all of you in full, but it would take too long. Instead, I'll respond to the general ideas.
1) There are other ways to show that it isn't tolerable. For example, shutting down the chapter. Punishing each individual that was in the chapter or only those caught on camera is going too far. Now it's unnecessary retribution given to those who got caught up in mob mentality... in a setting that pretty much encourages that mentality.
Shutting down the chapter sends a message and makes it difficult for the negative aspects of that mentality to continue within that setting. This is appropriate punishment. It takes care of everything that is necessary without going over.
2) None of the excess solutions actually attack the core of racism in any respect. Rather, it only encourages people to hide their racism, and only express it in, say, voting, or hiring, or redistricting. All incredibly important parts of institutionalized racism.
I was shocked that this shit actually happened. No one I've ever met would do something like this. I can't believe "educated" young college kids would do something like this. This is some shit I would've had a hard time picturing anyone outside of a Klan meeting doing, but here it is.
So yeah, apparently people do do this shit together.
With an article from 1994.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Tough I guess? They're racist shitheads but they're entitled to well established legal precedent and rights. Do I like racism? Not all. As a black person I know it's fucking horrible. But I'm not going to ignore reality over it.
The link is very relevant so I don't know what the timeframe comment is for. I know appeal to authority and all, but the ACLU kind of exists to address civil rights and liberty law, litigation, and advocacy. Am I going to waste time over this thread finding reports and case law of public universities getting slapped for violating the constitution? lol no. I do enough formal research for school.
And I have also made comments staing general counsel is very likely trying to find anything they can so they can legally take action. So I actually haven't written off anything. It's just as it stands now, I'm not seeing much room for the school to take action. Private school? This wouldn't even be a question.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Sure. I'm not entirely sure they'd have the staying power as an expulsion. I obviously disagree on the possibility of it going too far, especially considering the plethora of alternative options in higher education that await them.
It goes back to Enron's bad argument about "ruining lives." Being expelled from a school is a setback, yes. A big one. But not an insurmountable one at all. Punishing the people identified as absolutely smiling and singing along isn't out of bounds or going too far. Their lives won't be ruined by preventing them from attending that particular school. There are others. Their pursuit of higher education can absolutely continue.
entremet
Member
Law is very slow moving. Decades old legal precedence is cited all the time in cases.
Chairmanchuck
Member
The ones who defend not expelling the students.
What if they werent students at a university, but workers for a big company? Wouldnt it be normal if they would get fired for such behaviour?
What if they werent students at a university, but workers for a big company? Wouldnt it be normal if they would get fired for such behaviour?
Angelus Errare
Banned
I was always told that once the old people died racism would be deader than it already because I've also been told that it's already dead and that everyone is just pulling the race card.
FullMetalx117
Member
I really don't think all of these students are actually racist/bigots...
Peer pressure is very powerful, especially in a fraternity where "brotherhood" and "like mindedness" is preached. It's kind of hard not to join in when everyone else is singing even when the student doesn't have those views. I say go after the person who started it (I'm guessing it had to have been one of the leaders)
Peer pressure is very powerful, especially in a fraternity where "brotherhood" and "like mindedness" is preached. It's kind of hard not to join in when everyone else is singing even when the student doesn't have those views. I say go after the person who started it (I'm guessing it had to have been one of the leaders)
entremet
Member
A state run educational institution is subject to different laws than a private business.
I'm pro expulsion personally, but I just skeptical of it happening.
freeofgreed
Member
1) Punishing the people caught on camera is going too far? What? I can understand not expelling everyone in the frat or hell even everyone on the bus. But the ones caught explicitly chanting on the video deserve to get the full brunt of it.
2) Those solutions aren't meant to stop their racism. Fuck them. It's meant to prevent there racism from potentially affecting other people. Which is perfectly valid reason for expelling them.
Squirrel Killer
Member
I cited a SCOTUS opinion for 2011.
Delta Assault
Member
I just searched and found this decision from 2008.
They can definitely go and argue it, but it's not looking good for the university if they want to enforce some sort of speech code.
There were people in this thread who were actually saying these people should be 'removed from society' - that would be 'ruining' their lives.
GoldenEye 007
Member
You'll be shocked to know that court cases today can cite legal decisions/precedence from decades... Even centuries ago.
I'm not a lawyer but I'm pretty sure first year law students still have to learn about English law.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Canadians.
TimeEffect
Member
I'm just wondering what's going through the mind of the person recording. Were they absolutely disgusted and looking to expose the fraternity? Were they just stupid and decided to put it on social media thinking it would be harmless?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That has almost nothing to do with your assertion that their expulsion from a state university would "ruin their lives."
Delta Assault
Member
it's gotta be the former. There's no way that somebody in 2015 would post this thinking it'd be cool to share.
I didn't make that assertion.
My post about this
Addressing the "remove from society" posts.
You even quoted this post a few pages back, and you were the first one to bring up the notion of "ruin", not me.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
There are people who thought it would be cool to do that chant in 2015
Indeed. Crazy how accurate this is. And the solution/reaction to the behavior is always to either let it slide or a slap on the wrist. The people trotting out these BS excuses just want to maintain the status quo, but for whatever reason won't just come out and say it.
Delta Assault
Member
Yeah... but I think they probably felt safe and secure in their little racist enclave there.
Bluekaveli
Member
Fuck Greek life.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Enron said:
This is pretty easily seen as drawing a line between expelling kids from school and "ruining their lives."
You have yet to state otherwise. The majority of your arguments seem to line up with the idea that a) they shouldnt' be expelled and b) to expel them would be to "wreck their lives."
Do you think expelling them would "wreck their lives?"
If you don't - why are you arguing so strongly against it?
edit: it's fairly obvious "wreck" and "ruin" are synonyms.
Chie Satonaka
Member
Can we just post this at the beginning of every thread so that the usual suspects don't even have to bother?
Squirrel Killer
Member
The problem with this kind of thinking (equating pointing out legal realities with defending these racist shitheels) is that it lets your apparently incorrect assumption of the legal options available to the school (I'm open to hearing other legal citations indicating your assumption is correct) misinform people and bias their interpretations of the final outcome.
That is to say, if we chill speech enough that the only legal analysis of OU's options that is voiced is that they can absolutely expel the students, then if the school doesn't expel them, people will think OU went light on the racist shitheels when perhaps they went has hard as they legally could.
Certainly litigation can result in unexpected outcomes, however, it's expensive enough that when precedence is as strongly in one way as it is here, it's fair to recommend not perusing it.
Whether he found that particular link in 2 minutes of Googling, it conforms to most legal understanding of the current state of SCOTUS thinking.
Because it's two seperate arguments about the same thing.
Argument 1) I don't think they should be expelled.
Argument 2) there are people in this thread that have posted that these people should be removed from society and have no place in society - which is far different than just expelling them from school - strongly implied they should be kicked out of said society which I am fairly sure would be ruinous to one's life.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
Oklahoma is the state that eliminated AP history because the course didn't put the US in a positive light right? Ironic.
Vermillion
Banned
I just feel like it's past what is necessary and effective. That's what I mean by "too far."
I'll answer both points in one, since they're related.
At that point, you're really just punishing the ones unlucky enough to get caught on camera (with expulsion). This tends not to stop racism, but to make it more hidden. It's the hidden racism that goes towards the institutionalization of racism, which in turn allows their actions to affect other people.
Delta Assault
Member
That was Colorado, I believe.
FullMetalx117
Member
I agree that they shouldn't be expelled...public humiliation/termination of their frat is good enough of a punishment. They're only 19-21 and still growing and obviously something like this will change their views on things.
The fact that both the college and national organization have responded quickly is proof that things are better than they used to be. Most rational people don't think that racism is dead. It will probably never be dead completely, but it's tons better than it was.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Nah, it was Oklahoma.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Didn't answer my question.
Do you think expelling them from school would wreck their lives.
If you don't think it would, why are you so strongly arguing against expelling them.
Permanently A
Junior Member
I hope the person recording is doing so because they understand how disgusting this is, and not because they found it funny. Hope they all get expelled.
Your slap on the wrist solution is actually worse. Do nothing and people like this would still think it's ok to be racist in public while still expressing it in voting, hiring, or redistricting.
Yes..I'd rather these kids have to put Virginia College in Tulsa, Ok rather than Oklahoma U on their resume.
Delta Assault
Member
Huh, looks like it was both.
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