Colorado was involved in some bullshit regarding AP history early this year though.
Fraternity chanting the n-word
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Colorado was involved in some bullshit regarding AP history early this year though.
freeofgreed
Member
Did you even read the post you quoted? I clearly said that the goal wasn't to stop racism. Also whether you kick them out or not institutionalized racism will still persist. So it's better to at least weed out a few of the purpetrators than none at all. And you do realize that your basically insinuating that we shouldn't punish them at all for fear of making racism more covert, which is insane.
I'm not willing to throw kids out of school and potentially make it harder for them to even get back in to school (you think some other school is just going to let them attend once they receive their records from OU?) because they used the N word or sang some stupid racist frat song on a private hired bus.
Is it going to ruin their lives? no. But my "ruin lives" postings weren't even about them getting expelled - it was directed at those handful of posters that want to see people like this cut out of society altogether for some racist chant in college.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Still isn't answering the question.
Do you think their being expelled from school will wreck their lives.
(and yes, some other school will let them attend)
I've already answered it, twice. How many times are you going to keep asking? What is your purpose here?
GoldenEye 007
Member
Getting kicked out won't ruin their lives.
Getting kicked out in the first place is very likely illegal, though. Illegal probably isn't the right word as it isn't a criminal action. But civilly? Probably won't stand up on appeal. So that's why some people are pointing out the realities of the law.
Getting kicked out in the first place is very likely illegal, though. Illegal probably isn't the right word as it isn't a criminal action. But civilly? Probably won't stand up on appeal. So that's why some people are pointing out the realities of the law.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You won't get admission in any respectable university after that.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
They'll be fine, hell they're probably free speech heroes to some people already
Yekshemesh
Member
So apparently a month ago someone on reddit claims that a Texas chapter of SAE also sings this song.
http://i.reddit.com/r/Austin/commen...texas_fraternity_pledge_rules/cogo0pq.compact
Yup sounds like this isn't an isolated incident, the songs seems pretty known.
http://i.reddit.com/r/Austin/commen...texas_fraternity_pledge_rules/cogo0pq.compact
Yup sounds like this isn't an isolated incident, the songs seems pretty known.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Ah yeah that is possible. A lot of applications have sections that ask you to declare any disciplinary or legal actions against them.
So in that case, it only makes it more likely to file a lawsuit if the school takes action. I'd be intersted to see if general counsel will find something. But I doubt they will.
Squirrel Killer
Member
As much as I hate to say this but I think the accurate wording would be... "Getting kicked out in the first place very likely violates their civil rights."
Ugh.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Yes of course. That's the phrase.
Not surprising, there's no way many other chapters don't have the a similar, or the same, chant. It's a southern born frat that's been around forever, I'm sure there is all sorts of weird shit going on.
King Tubby
Member
Absolutely disgusting. I never was much of a fan of Greek life. Not to say that all fraternities/sororities are this way, but a lot of them are segregated and spoiled stupid. Combine that with being in a position of power and wanting to exercise it over others and you have assholes like this. I bet they think it's totally overblown and were just "having a laugh."
CadetMahoney
Member
Yea, that's a shame.
HOMEBOY OVER HERE
Banned
how is it different?
I am genuinely curious?
it is okay to be racist as long as you don't outwardly target one or a group of individuals that you can put an actual face to?
these kids will go on to fill leadership roles due to their parents wealth. If they are not reprimanded now their impact will be much greater ten years from now when they have economic, social, and political influence over their communities.
Vermillion
Banned
Ow, rude.
Yes, I read your post. The purpose of my post was to explain that by going too far (I defined what I mean by this) in punishing people without attacking the root of their racism, it only exacerbates the problem. What I am saying, then, is that expulsion is counterproductive as a solution. This is why I explained that it wouldn't stop racism - my entire post is tied together.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Free speech sucks, doesn't it? That's the law, though. No matter how objectionable.
What they are saying is that if you actually have a target for your speech, then it becomes intimidation or menacing and can be construed as making a threat upon that person. Singing an old racist frat song in the company of your fratbros doesn't rise to that particular level.
POWERSPHERE
Member
Frats are so gross.
Now THIS is something I hope gets more media attention.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Basically. Racism isn't illegal. Will private entities and individual people ostracize racists? Yeah. But public entities and organizations are bound by law and that speech must be protected.
I think the poster came back and said the person was actually punished for vandalism. Plus in that situation, a victim was actually targeted. Two separate situations.
I am honestly amazed that anyone who made such an awful and immature list managed to get into any sort of post-secondary education.
Your solution is somehow worse; it has every disadvantage you mention in expelling them and then some.
Because by simply slapping them on the wrist and shutting down the chapter, you're still going to make them smarter racists, whilst still retaining the privilege of tertiary education so that they can proceed on to positions of privilege and influence and continue the institutionalized racism you mention.
In fact, the only appreciable difference is they probably have an even bigger chip on their shoulder regarding minorities and the culture that derides their bigotry for fucking with their frat, coupled with the networking and educational degree to do something about it.
It's 2015. They're adults. If they hadn't figured out by now racial discrimination and talking about lynching black people isn't ok, slapping them on the wrist isn't going to do it.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
Wow, so segregation is baked right into the education experience?
HOMEBOY OVER HERE
Banned
It would seem that it has to be far more specific than that.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Because getting retweets and likes for this stuff told people "Hey, my friends think the same things! This is ok... no, this is normal.". Now after years of white social media echo chamber I'm having people approach me IRL in mixed racial company to whisper racist shit in my ear that they expect me to agree with because I'm white.
MWS Natural
Member
I wonder which of these SAE "forefathers" came up with the chant.
block tower
Member
so frats being frats then? this is representative of typical greek life culture imo.
Because they think there is nothing wrong with it, they know there will always be people who excuse it because "they are just teens" and ultimately there won't be any consequences because "it might wreck their lives".
GoldenEye 007
Member
Do you really think something like this is "typical" out of the hundreds of organizations, thousands of chapters, at thousands of campuses, with tens of thousands of members active and millions of alumni members?
way more
Member
I'll be one to says yes. I've never actually heard the word "nigger" said by white people outside of those people I met in frats.
Of course they didn't use it to mean "black people" they used it to mean "lazy." As in, stop being such a nigger and wake up. I guess they weren't being racist in that regard.
block tower
Member
yup. been to many universities in my short life from visiting friends/family, to now being in college for 4+ years, and greek life is always the same not matter the school. not every single frat is like this, obviously, but theres definitely this sort of constant in the greek life culture.
Angelus Errare
Banned
King Tubby
Member
Typical in a relative sense, but yeah. We're talking about alcohol-infused exclusionary social circles comprised of people who largely have no experience in the real world or with other cultures.
That's certainly one way to rationalize it (I don't mean you are).
MWS Natural
Member
Ok I got it now.
White College students = Kids that are too young to be held responsible for their actions!
Teenage Black Kids = Dangerous adults that police officers should be afraid of.
block tower
Member
but theyre just harmless kids chanting slurs and singing about lynching, im sure theyll change by the time daddy and his corporate friends give them careers at their companies!
Angelus Errare
Banned
The power of privilege summed up eloquently.
King Tubby
Member
On the one hand, yeah these really are just stupid kids and it's not like they've been recorded actually attacking someone. On the other hand, you just can't tolerate this behavior. There's no room for a bunch of good ol' boys having a hell of a time singing about how it's better to lynch a black person before ever letting them into their social club.
The leadership of this frat who condoned this horseshit and almost certainly discriminated in their positions of power should be expelled. As for the other frat members I think maybe they can get a sliver of the doubt. They should be suspended, put on probation, and shamed.
Their whole initiation process already says everything about how moronic the whole Greek culture is.
Liquidus Snake
Banned
Meh i find the whole "guilty by association" thing a little harsh here. Id only kick out the ones seen on video chanting along with it. The girl on the left on the bus didnt seem to be part of it and im sure their were others on the bus who weren't either.
Had a similar situation in high school where a kid mooned a truck driver on on the way to our trip to universal for seniors, The truck driver stopped and told our charter bus driver then he told one of our deans who was on the bus. She was pissed but didnt know who it was and was about to punish everyone on the bus because of the one jackass. Eventually someone told on the kid and he was the only one that got punished [rightfully so].
Point is i dont think every single person on that bus be punished especially if their is no proof as to whether they were chanting or not. They can easily just make an example of those who were caught.
I literally have never done anything extremely stupid that I am ashamed of. Jesus christ lmao. It might be hard to imagine, but some of us actually make it in life without saying really stupid shit in public.
Kick them the fuck out of school. That's a pretty solid learning experience.
Earthpainting
Member
Eep. Here I thought this was going to be a misguided case of using "nigga", and a bunch of awkward attempts at defending its use. If only that were the case now.
Expelling them may be a bit tricky, since it's difficult to prove who all was involved, but some punitive actions against the fraternity seems more than fair. Letting the whole thing disappear without repercussions would send a very bad signal.
Expelling them may be a bit tricky, since it's difficult to prove who all was involved, but some punitive actions against the fraternity seems more than fair. Letting the whole thing disappear without repercussions would send a very bad signal.
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