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[benny_a]

What 3.5? I though Killzone:SF says they were using 7. So what was the OS like before the upgrade? What is Sony''s statement?

KZ:SF used 4.5GB of memory in the February 20th demonstration.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I know how it works.

Fantastic

That doesn't mean that Sony or MSFT can't allocate a certain amount of memory for apps and OS functionality.

I didn't say otherwise but 3.5GB seems ridiculous. What OS needs that much RAM?

When the devs are not complaining then why is it important here? That's probably a more important question to ask yourself (you and everyone included).

Sony had us all excited over 8 GB of RAM and no one thought that it would be halved for the OS. 1-1.5 GB was expected, not twice that.

 

[KlotePino]

Ok reading what mortimer said actually makes a lot of sense. I still think they're playing it very safe allocating 3.5 gig to OS but I agree that it's probably not significantly bottlenecking development right now and as long as they make it easy for that RAM to be unlocked to devs down the line I'm fine with it. Crisis averted?

 

[Spongebob]

1. They're wrong. They should get better sources, or at least attempt a better analysis.

2. OS matters are a bit more complicated than how this is being portrayed.

3. I clearly have a lot to learn before becoming a master troll.

4. It's Friday. My mobile is getting too much of a workout for a Friday.

It begins.

 

[thuway]

Sony is playing it very safe for launch units. Things like clock rates, OS size, and memory allotments are conservative for a reason. Sony does not want to be in a position where they will lose out on a killer feature or find themselves in a position where there is zero room to grow. I wouldn't be surprised if year 3 or 4 of the PS4's life cycle you see a patch to upclock the GPU.

Upclocking the PS4's GPU 200 mhz more would yield a 2.3 TF machine.

As of this moment, not a single developer has complained about "too little RAM". Most developers are very happy by not only the quantity, but the speed of RAM. As we enter the third year of the machine, the OS size will shrink and things will become less bloated.

Let things play their part and STOP overreacting. Some of you have zero idea how well designed and balanced the PS4 is.

 

[Minigo]

Because there are developers that actually WILL use it, and since when has it been wise to treat developers like farm animals or babies, corralling them off from resources that they might not use immediately? "Hey little buddy, you're not going to play with this toy right now so daddy is going to put this in the closet out of your reach. When you're ready to play with this, maybe daddy will go and get it for you."

There is NO justifiable reason for Sony to be blocking off so much RAM if this report is true, which I doubt. I can understand blocking off 1.5 GB, but 3.5 is an utterly ridiculous amount.

well, that's a very "fan-fictional" interpretation of how things went down, kind of like it thou

 

[Orayn]

KZ:SF used 4.5GB of memory in the February 20th demonstration.

Wasn't that demo just a target render running on PC?

 

[LiquidMetal14]

No, and nobody claimed that to be the case, but Sony's emphasis on it being a machine for gamers didn't really set any alarm bells ringing about a humongous OS RAM sap. It's Sony's omission of clarification that is at fault.

Did you honestly expect the PS4 not to be a much better PS3? I'm going to assume you're smart enough to know Sony has the games part in check but you didn't even expect Sony to expand the OS use for media or general OS function?

Surely you know how sluggish the XMB can be and you can't even do in game video/voice chat. Vita even has this but the design and spec was better to accomodate that.

Nothing was omitted because this should be known. I have more shocking news, Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Hulu, and others will be featured on PS4. Those aren't games and those are the same services available on PS3. The difference is the memory available and speed of it all will be much better.

 

[BleachAndPepsi]

I told myself I wasn't going to post in this thread because people are foaming at the mouth and not thinking.... but here I am, which makes me an idiot.


First off, I know all you guys want are hard numbers and I don't have them. But I do know the philosophies in place currently. If you would like to use your brain and think critically about things... keep reading. If you want to get into a 5>4.5 OMG IM CANCELLING MY PREORDER conversation - this thread won't help you, in either direction.


I was told by a couple of Devs in the lead up to E3 that the OS footprint was "bigger than expected" but not a single one of them complained about it. No one is in danger of running out of ram. As some people have mentioned in this thread - games like the The Last of Us are happening with 512mb of ram. Launch titles, of all things, are not going to be pushing the hardware in any sort of way... and that includes ram.

So why is the ram footprint bigger than expected? It's fairly simple - Sony is hedging their bets. They were absolutely caught with their pants down with their OS this gen. Not having the memory overhead to do things like Party Chat gave Microsoft a huge advantage when it came to online gaming, which is obviously a growing sector. So much like $399 as a target price was a reaction to $599 being a disaster... "big OS footprint" is a reaction to "small OS footprint" being a disaster.

But the thing that I'm hearing and I believe there was even a line dedicated to this in the eurogamer article is that these numbers aren't set in stone. The fact of the matter is that high end PC games use around 3gb of ram and use higher res textures (art tends to take up the largest chunks of ram) than the ps4/x1 do. The idea that launch games need 7gb of ram is absolutely ludicrous. 4gbs is fine. Anything more, at this point, is overkill. It won't be overkill forever... but it's overkill for now.

So Sony gets to sit on this chunk of ram, be in 1gb or 3gb - again, I don't know the numbers. I don't know if eurogamer is right (I do know at E3 that some thought more ram would be freed up when the final dev kits shipped... but I don't know anyone working with a final dev kit). But Sony is coming at this from a position of power. They don't need the ram currently so they get to take a wait and see approach before saying "ok, devs, you guys get this." The systems will launch and they will look at what people are doing with their own OS, they will see what features people are asking for, they will see if microsoft or Nintendo (or even steam) come out with some surprise feature that catches fire - and if it does they will have the memory there to be able to do it also. If it doesn't that chunk of ram gets freed up for developers.


This thread is looking at this entire thing like the endgame is the day it launches. That's day one, guys. This is a long term strategic move and, imo, a smart one. They are putting themselves in a position to be able to adapt... something they couldn't do with the ps3. I know as gamers all we want to hear is higher numbers. But find me one developer that thinks the ram available to them on either system isn't enough (and this goes for the x1 as well guys... all this 5gb hurr hurrr stuff is fanboyish nonsense that you can go through my post history and see I never took part in once).


I feel like this post is far to philosophical for this thread of LARGE NUMBER > SMALL NUMBER, but hopefully this info is useful to some of you. Sony have created a nimble system and this is part of that philosophy.

This needs to be quoted in OP. Or at least at the beginning of every new page.

 

[xaosslug]

While reserving more ram for the OS is more likely the the "lol memory" flood thread.

I still think it's very likely the Crow Cafe will be working overtime, again.

i heard they had to start importing from Mexico to replenish supply.

 

[i-Lo]

While the PS4 is more powerful, the Xbone IMO offers a better selection of games based on what we've seen so far, not to mention the superior OS features and revolutionary Kinect sensor. Better hardware does not necessarily make the better console.

Man fanboys for both sides are at it.

 

[Can Crusher]

So why is the ram footprint bigger than expected? It's fairly simple - Sony is hedging their bets. They were absolutely caught with their pants down with their OS this gen. Not having the memory overhead to do things like Party Chat gave Microsoft a huge advantage when it came to online gaming, which is obviously a growing sector. So much like $399 as a target price was a reaction to $599 being a disaster... "big OS footprint" is a reaction to "small OS footprint" being a disaster.

Talking seriously here for a minute, reason why party chat wasn't in wasn't due to less memory available. Ps3 had more than twice the memory reserved for OS purposes than the 360, at one point at least.

Now putting that aside, everybody can see the trend. Actually let's be honest, there's no trend to be seen since we are riding it. It has been happening since the Mirc days.... Social networks might look like they are reaching a peak with Facebook but I would bet hard money on how we are just scratching the surface.

Social, social, social. I don't see how you would need 3.5 GB of GDDR5 for that, and that is the hook. PC sales are declining because mobile devices are allowing people be connected and have a bunch of options at their disposal outside of the house. Why is it that some believe consoles next step is to be a PC in the living room? The static living room all in one box is a pipe dream that will only become real when your "screen" is formless and expandable, and input is standard, easy to use and seamless across all options (you're stuck with a subpar input in a videogame console).

And by the time that is possible, that all in one box will be a mobile device. Right now, it's all about social. Is it cool to be able to stream Netflix? It's awesome. What's the use of being able to stream Netflix while playing a game though? And if you can have party chat and cross game chat with 32 MB of ram, what the hell do you need 3500 MB of Ram for? That's almost as much as I have on my PC. Excel while gaming is that it?!

 

[LastChance2Frag]

So why is the ram footprint bigger than expected? It's fairly simple - Sony is hedging their bets. They were absolutely caught with their pants down with their OS this gen. Not having the memory overhead to do things like Party Chat gave Microsoft a huge advantage when it came to online gaming, which is obviously a growing sector.

This is well put and a good idea for the future, by having this amount just for the OS to use they can do so much and be ready for most unexpected trends that could happen in the next 5-10 years.

Weird thing I find with this thread is surely that 8gb was never originally thought to be all for games and that's why I didn't understand why everyone was so down on the fact that Microsoft were splitting there ram between OS and Games. Sony & Microsoft both know what they are doing and there must be so much stuff still in the process of being added in so keeping a safety net for future shoe horning is fine by me.

 

[TheLegendary]

I came here to post - a far less eloquent - version of this. Congrats on a sensible reading.

Normal GAF service is resumed. Back to the insanity...

How does this differ than what Microsoft (or the consoles last gen) is doing? The post is a sugar coating of the same situation that everyone gave MS shit for; taking up a huge amount of space for non gaming functions, whether a portion is reserved for potential future proofing or not. Proelite already said that some of the space that's reserved for the Xbox is open space for future proofing; just like Sony is doing here. Both can (and most likely will) reduce the footprint in the future.

Baffling how this post is being congratulated when it's essentially PR spin.

Sony is playing it very safe for launch units. Things like clock rates, OS size, and memory allotments are conservative for a reason. Sony does not want to be in a position where they will lose out on a killer feature or find themselves in a position where there is zero room to grow. I wouldn't be surprised if year 3 or 4 of the PS4's life cycle you see a patch to upclock the GPU.

Upclocking the PS4's GPU 200 mhz more would yield a 2.3 TF machine.

As of this moment, not a single developer has complained about "too little RAM". Most developers are very happy by not only the quantity, but the speed of RAM. As we enter the third year of the machine, the OS size will shrink and things will become less bloated.

Let things play their part and STOP overreacting. Some of you have zero idea how well designed and balanced the PS4 is.

Im curious if you could explain how this differs from MS' position where they can similarly reduce the size as time goes on? Or even upclock via a patch as you claim?

 

[Mung]

I'm betting there is going to be a massive wall of shame from this thread once figures from final dev kits are released.

 

[DeadlyVirus]

While the PS4 is more powerful, the Xbone IMO offers a better selection of games based on what we've seen so far, not to mention the superior OS features and revolutionary Kinect sensor. Better hardware does not necessarily make the better console.

Better games? Like what?
Superior OS features? Based on what? What features have you seen of the PS4 OS to compare?
Revolutionary Kinect? Heard that 4 years ago on Kinect 1.0....

 

[la flama blanca]

Sony is playing it very safe for launch units. Things like clock rates, OS size, and memory allotments are conservative for a reason. Sony does not want to be in a position where they will lose out on a killer feature or find themselves in a position where there is zero room to grow. I wouldn't be surprised if year 3 or 4 of the PS4's life cycle you see a patch to upclock the GPU.

Upclocking the PS4's GPU 200 mhz more would yield a 2.3 TF machine.

As of this moment, not a single developer has complained about "too little RAM". Most developers are very happy by not only the quantity, but the speed of RAM. As we enter the third year of the machine, the OS size will shrink and things will become less bloated.

Let things play their part and STOP overreacting. Some of you have zero idea how well designed and balanced the PS4 is.

Way too much rationalization in this thread, I'm out.

 

[mangochutney]

Didn't we have quotes the other day saying they're struggling to use up all the RAM?

 

[Paracelsus]

While the PS4 is more powerful, the Xbone IMO offers a better selection of games based on what we've seen so far, not to mention the superior OS features and revolutionary Kinect sensor. Better hardware does not necessarily make the better console.

So for a very limited and unquestionably stand-alone time window you sacrifice the entire generation?

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

While the PS4 is more powerful, the Xbone IMO offers a better selection of games based on what we've seen so far, not to mention the superior OS features and revolutionary Kinect sensor. Better hardware does not necessarily make the better console.

Have you had some hands on time with both boxes? This statement just reads as PR.

 

[benny_a]

Wasn't that demo just a target render running on PC?

I think it was done by the CG studio Blur in 2005.

 

[Odrion]

Sony isn't all that concerned with message board pissing contests and nor should they be.

They should be concerned with inflammatory news articles. And after what has been happening to the Xbone this whole time, as they ignored everyone the word of mouth on their policies spread until it got to a fucking Talk Show, you'd think Sony would know better than to let a fire spread.

C'mon Boyes, I know you're reading this.

 

[Hedon]

Nothing personal really, it just gets me antsy when hard numbers get thrown around like that and they aren't true.
The last time we heard about OS usage (and not by sony themselves but from reliable leaks i believe) was 512mb, back when the ps4 had 4gb. As a matter of fact, i don't think i remember sony ever making a statement about the OS footprint.



oh boy...

Agreed. It no different than people confirming the Xbox One is using 3gb of RAM for OS, when that has not been confirmed by MS either.

 

[Spongebob]

Wasn't that demo just a target render running on PC?

No...

 

[Gaming Nostalgia]

So then why did they go for 8gb GDDR5 and not just do 5gb GDDR5 and 3gb DDR3? I know unified memory yada yada yada but would that not have reduced cost of manufacturing? Also this is just sad to me. I expected no more than 2gb reserved for OS. Now you telling me only 4.5gb is guaranteed to developers!? That's less than Xbox One and we were all criticizing them for that. I knew this machine was too good to be true. Most likely it'll turn out much like this generation with multiplatform games looking much the same but with only a handful of ps4 games showcasing its small tech advantage over Xbox One.

 

[CadetMahoney]

50% more GPU compute cores is still quite significant.

pretty much, ppl acting like they're on par now, PS4 games will still be vastly superior.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

While the PS4 is more powerful, the Xbone IMO offers a better selection of games based on what we've seen so far, not to mention the superior OS features and revolutionary Kinect sensor. Better hardware does not necessarily make the better console.

Unfortunately I haven't seen any games yet which make meaningful use of this "revolutionary Kinect sensor". And it's weird talking about the amount of games when we still have several events before the launch of those consoles happening like Gamescom, PAX and TGS.

 

[Shin]

the Xbone IMO offers a better selection of games based on what we've seen so far, not to mention the superior OS features and revolutionary Kinect sensor. Better hardware does not necessarily make the better console.

Hahahaha, why do you think Sony reserved (supposedly) 1-3.5Gb of RAM?
And none of the games on Xbone interests me in the slightest (taste differs, same for the currently known Sony 1st party games).

 

[prwxv3]

I'm betting there is going to be a massive wall of shame from this thread once figures from final dev kits are released.

There needs to be for the dedicated neogaf shit posts twitter guy to easily account for all the shame

 

[uncleniccius]

Question: How much space does 15 minutes of 1080P video use up?

 

[Calavera520]

Still no confirmation or statement from Sony or ANYTHING official, why are people panicking?

 

[Orayn]

I think it was done by the CG studio Blur in 2005.

No, I'm serious, I thought the February Killzone demo was just a target render. (Also, it ran at 1600x900, whereas the final game is 1920x1080.)

Question: How much space does 15 minutes of 1080P video use up?

Depends entirely on the bitrate.

 

[googleplex]

All well and good, but my issue is that Day 1 dev will have the same pipeline as day 1000 dev. Once the consoles are out in the wild, games will be made to the lowest common denominator. Will someone like ND make a PS4 game with 6,7gb of ram? Perhaps. But this decision ensures that it will be the isolated few devs, not something everyone is working towards.

So my point still stands. If this is true, im out. With only price seperating the two consoles, i feel it prudent to sit and wait to see if the value if either can be increased beyond what is currently offered. PS360 are nowhere near dead. Ill wait.

Console development doesn't work that way. PS3 development didn't work that way ether.

At launch the PS3 SDK reserved 120 megs of ram from game development. So PS3 launch game only has access to 392 megs of ram. That number was whittled down a bit to 98megs reserved by the SDK latter that year, development kits were updated and so that second wave of games used more ram that launch titles. Sony kept refining their OS and all the way down to the current 50megs the PS3 OS uses now.

It sounds like the current OS with all of its functions reserves 1.5 gigs of ram but the Playstation team is reserving an extra 1gigs of Ram for now "just in case". The Playstation team has thus far been VERY good at giving developers who they want. If their big development partners tell them that they need more ram. Rest assured Sony will give then more ram.

 

[cyberheater]

If Sony had stuck to 4Gb GDDR. How much of that would have been reserved for the OS?

 

[kurbaan]

No, I'm serious, I thought the February Killzone demo was just a target render. (Also, it ran at 1600x900, whereas the final game is 1920x1080.)

Are you joking? They played it on stage.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Fantastic



I didn't say otherwise but 3.5GB seems ridiculous. What OS needs that much RAM?



Sony had us all exited over 8 GB of RAM and no one thought that it would be halved for the OS. 1-1.5 GB was expected, not twice that.

The OS likely doesn't need the 3.5GB number. It's for headroom. Much like me having the 16GB of memory (which I really have) is to provision space in case I tax my PC more.

In the case of any console, an amount is always reserved for OS functions. Just because 3.5 is reserved doesn't mean it's all being taken.

Let me say this once more, this 3.5 number is not even proven yet but I will fly with it for the sake of discussion.

 

[Barzul]

So Sony's "goal" if this rumor is true, is to eventually reduce the amount of RAM being used up by the OS/match new features by MS and Ninty. Yet in the Phil Spencer indie thread some people kept drawing to Phil's use of the word "goal", when Sony is using a similar approach, albeit in a much different context. Why does Sony get the benefit of the doubt, that the OS footprint might eventually be reduced, (if this rumor is true) but not MS in regards to indie full use of RAM? Anyways, I don't see this having much of an effect on PS4 games, which is overall still the more powerful system. Hope we get official word on this Sony, wasn't this article initially withheld so Sony could prepare a statement of some sort?

 

[famousmortimer]

I didn't say otherwise but 3.5GB seems ridiculous. What OS needs that much RAM?



Sony had us all exited over 8 GB of RAM and no one thought that it would be halved for the OS. 1-1.5 GB was expected, not twice that.

Gonna be my last post on the subject because it's driving me nuts.


3.5gb for an OS is ridiculous. 100% agreed. I think everyone agrees. I think Sony agrees.


But needing more than 5gb of ram right now is also ridiculous. No one needs it. So why not section it off and see what happens after launch? The first games that will really push either system will be fall 14. They have plenty of time to make changes before then.

 

[mrklaw]

Sony App Store coming?

Even then you'd only want maybe one third oar app running alongside a browser and maybe store client,other apps could be suspended to the HDD.

 

[c0de]

KZ:SF used 4.5GB of memory in the February 20th demonstration.

yes, on a devkit.

 

[TheRealTalker]

other threads or completely bare because of this one

you guys need to slow down with this insanity

 

[Raist]

No more comfy tubs now.

 

[GameSeeker]

1. They're wrong. They should get better sources, or at least attempt a better analysis.

2. OS matters are a bit more complicated than how this is being portrayed.

3. I clearly have a lot to learn before becoming a master troll.

4. It's Friday. My mobile is getting too much of a workout for a Friday.

In Verendus I trust.

 

[Vashetti]

.

 

[dragonfart28]

 

[glenn8]

A crowbar next to the tub?

Half Life 3 is the OS.

 

[Hedon]

pretty much, ppl acting like they're on par now, PS4 games will still be vastly superior.

I don't want to abuse the not sure if serious gif here...

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

the question is, what could be the next killer feature they could allocate the reserved RAM for?

4GB OF RESERVED RAM FOR DYNAMIC ADS THAT PLAY BASED ON YOUR GAMING HISTORY & BROWSING EXPERIENCE!!!

 

[Spongebob]

If Sony had stuck to 4Gb GDDR. How much of that would have been reserved for the OS?

512MB

Read the article.

 

[iNvid02]

the question is, what could be the next killer feature they could allocate the reserved RAM for?

and what if there is no progress on that front and sony decide to release the reserved RAM to devs, only for microsoft to come out with a must have OS feature that enhances the experience greatly.

some PS4 games come out which utilise most of the available RAM, but sony feels it needs this killer new feature to compete, revises the specs available to devs and patches in this new mystery experience which gobbles up the remaining RAM.

what happens to those games, and those that were in development going by the previous specs. will the mystery feature just not work with those games? GTA 6 could ship when there was a 1GB OS footprint and 7 when sony has revised the specs and the OS footprint is 3GB.

what if the PS4 library becomes fragmented. so many possibilities.