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From Tupac to Rosa Parks: KY county clerk Kim Davis says "Only God can judge me now"
- Thread starter mj1108
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Gordon Shumway
Banned
lol..such harsh language!
Citadelofmythoughts
Banned
Stopped clock..etc, etc.
Hellwarden
Member
"You have to go with it," he said today. "The decision's been made, and that is the law of the land."-Donald Trump
People....Donald Trump was right about something.
Just right.
Once the Gaystapo burst into my house, shattering my door. They held me down and I almost, almost turned gay, until I told them I had my lord and savior on my side and they shrieked like a crucified vampire and ran out of the house. It's crazy how they are trying to control everything. Those jackboots have to know what's coming for 'em!
Donald Trump is progressive on many issues. It's one of his biggest liabilities considering the party whose nomination he seeks.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
No, that's not true.
Indeed, in law she does not have to sign the licenses at all - deputies are explicitly allowed to sign and issue licenses.
However, each license does carry a (preprinted I'm pretty sure) authorisation statement of the County Clerk, which is in her name. And that's a legal requirement [KY 402.100].
Monocle
Member
Basically this. Go be a bigoted fundie off the clock, lady.
So if elected official where you l've started using there religious conviction to effect your life (say revoke the title to your house, declare your marriage null and void, removed your kids cause they question their true bloodlines, etc), you would be okay with that? Would you go go a county over to pay and re-register your paper work? What if those officials, because of their religion won't recognize you either?
Do you stay and fight for your rights under the law, or so you keep moving until you find law applies to you? Meanwhile, you can't sell your house cause an official declared it not yours. You and said partner need to rearrange your finances cause of your single status. And you may be charged with kidnapping cause legally you kids are not your kids. You want a modern real life example, the entire abortion clinic/Planned Parenthood fight that is going on is people using religious exemption subvert Federal Law. It's okay, women can still get abortions, the just have to drive several hundred miles or to another State to get one. It's bullshit.
That why we have laws that apply equally to everyone. And those who administer those laws take an oath to uphold those law, despite their own personal beliefs. If you let public servants have exemptions for which laws they will follow based on religious conviction, then society would breakdown, because everyone would use their religion to make their community the way they want. Don't want the gays? Claim religion. Don't want the blacks? Claim religion. Don't want women voting? Claim religion. Muslims? Mexicans/Latin/South Americans? Claim religion.
Since there is no test for what exact constituents a deeply held religious belief- one can claim anything. That why religion cannot be the bases for deciding what laws are followed, because religion is an philosophy/way of life designed to be interpreted, not codified.
One of my Facebook friends is driving to Kentucky with a bunch of his religious buddies to protest her arrest. He says it's time for "civil unrest" and how it's time for a call to arms for Christians everywhere. Says he's going to pray and fast until she is released from jail.
I can't imagine he's alone in his bigotry and this thing is gonna be a huge issue. Funny thing is, replace her with a Muslim denying gays marriage licenses and these same people wouldn't say a word.
I can't imagine he's alone in his bigotry and this thing is gonna be a huge issue. Funny thing is, replace her with a Muslim denying gays marriage licenses and these same people wouldn't say a word.
Hah, did not know they were advising her to continue to defy the court order, just thought they were retrospectively defending her actions. Thanks for the links.
Some religions are just more equal than others.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Donald Trump is a businessman first and foremost. I'm not the least bit surprised that he would be put off by someone wanting to get paid for not doing their job.
Best Nintendo Fan Ever
Banned
Keep us updated on when his funeral is....
JasonUresti
Member
That's actually something I'd be quite interested in seeing, a Muslim citing religious beliefs to deny service or performing their job, just to see what the hard core right wing Christians would do.
Rudimental
Member
VivaciousSoul
Member
I read your first sentence several times but I think it will have to be adjusted for me to get the full meaning. (Edit: Actually I got it now. I was concentrating too much on every word rather than looking at it as a whole and with context)
I get the sense that you think that I believe that whoever has a conviction that is contrary to the current law should get to continue outside of the law indefinitely. I am not saying that. The section of my text that you quoted even though tailored to another response hints that I feel that a person whose position requires them to enforce the law should know that it's absolutely time to get out should such a big conflict arise. (She's crazy if she thought that she was going to just continue doing whatever she wanted to do)
My claim is that yes it's time to get out but provision should be made that the person in office lands relatively softly. Not least because they had the conviction before the law was changed. Let the marriage licenses continue to be issued to the couples who want to and are legally able to get married while in the meantime she sits down and contemplates the decisions that will need to be made. In the process of posting I realized that this is not what she wanted to do. She wanted to fight. She wanted to not issue the licenses and stop others in her office from issuing them as well. Again she got what she had coming to her
I'll end by saying again that the law is the law. It absolutely should be obeyed. But don't anyone tell me that the law is infallible and perfectly suited to everyone, that it's good simply because it's the law. It was this very same year of 2015 that the law said the opposite of what it says now in some states. The law is what we collectively make it. It is not inconceivable that an individual could have a belief that is contrary to the law. Sensing a degree of unfairness is what prompted my claim. I thought of how I would feel if a new law required me to do something unthinkable. To me issuing marriage licenses to whoever wants them is not unthinkable but something else definitely could be. I would wanted to be protected from "okay that's it, you're done, out you go." not indefinitely but for a reasonable amount of time.
Black Republican
Member
Chaplain
Member
A few things.
1. Many have already made up their minds on this case and anyone who opposes it: ridiculing and slandering those that do not conform to their view on this matter. For many, I am a truth twister and everyone else is a truth seeker. So, I am not going to sit here all day responding to everyone's posts when there is no reason to.
2. I don't agree that the arguments are flawed. One group has federal and state-legislation on their side that allows them to force another group to violate their faith if they deny submitting to the law that they believe goes against their faith. In this case specifically, if she didn't hold to a christian worldview she would not be in jail.
3. I wasn't referring to the apocalypse. Only that there is no way to escape the consequences of people forcing reality to conform to their own thinking.
4. Finally, this great divide is centered on two very different worldviews. I will let the following quote explain the vastness of how and why the Christian worldview will seem to be hateful and backwards to many in this thread:
Law vs Right
Government can chose what laws to Enforce (See: sodomy/adultery laws)
Government cannot chose what Rights to protect.
And here is where your argument falls apart. She is not being forced to do anything. Her boss, in this case the law, is telling her what she must do in regards to a job. This is not an inquisition where she is being tortured into believing what others believe. She is free to leave that job if she feels her convictions won't allow her to perform it. She has free will in this instance to avoid jail and any official reprimand whatsoever . That's not what she is doing here. She's trying to make a statement by denying civil rights to others. She has a right to her beliefs, convictions, and ideas. She can scream them from the rooftops if she wants. She is not in jail for doing something, but for not doing something while at the same time refusing to relinquish control to someone who will. That is not a martyr, that is a bully who is abusing their power.
If funny how you think people are wrong to say you're twisting the truth, and then you immediately say something like this. Come on, man.
Chaplain
Member
She isn't forced to do anything? If she doesn't hand out marriage licences, does she get to continue working at her place of employment of the past couple of decades, or does she stay in jail until she submits to judge?
Like I posted previously, your point of reference believes that you see the truth in this matter and I do not. This is due to each of us having different worldviews:
I believe the opposite of what you believe in this case, looking at the same evidence as you have. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I am not angry with you because you do not see it from my point of view. I do appreciate you taking the time converse with me despite our disagreement.
Veritigo_X
Member
If she can't do her job she shouldn't continue working at her place of employment, no matter how long she has worked there. Where do you work where you can get away with not doing what you were hired to do?
metalslimer
Member
The judge fucking offered to let her get other people to sign the licenses. Get the fuck out of here with that nonsense GA
Of course not! Nobody does! She is not singled out in that regard. I don't get to refuse my duties at my place of employment without getting the boot and just because she believes in a book, neither does she. That's a ridiculous argument and no amount of quoting scholars is going to change that.
SkeptiMism
Member
Game Analyst, do you think muslims living in the US should be able to deny service for women? Or say, Christians? (edit: Not that most muslims would do that even if they could, just as most Christians wouldn't agree with you at all here)
Or is it just that Christians should be able to live by their faith?
edit2: And if you can tell me at the same time, does Jesus not recognize that a law is a law? For example the passage about the "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar". I'm aware there are other things going on with that answer, but I'm pretty sure it's also partly about that he recognizes that earthly law is different than godly law (and as a side note, I don't think there's any godly law telling Davis not to sign the license - it's not like she's wedding anyone).
Or is it just that Christians should be able to live by their faith?
edit2: And if you can tell me at the same time, does Jesus not recognize that a law is a law? For example the passage about the "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar". I'm aware there are other things going on with that answer, but I'm pretty sure it's also partly about that he recognizes that earthly law is different than godly law (and as a side note, I don't think there's any godly law telling Davis not to sign the license - it's not like she's wedding anyone).
darkazcura
Member
Then she should resign. Simple as that. If she feels that strongly about her faith, then she should get a job where she feels like her faith isn't interfering with her job duties. She is completely free to do that, and no one would stop her so it's best you stop acting like she is being forced to do anything.
Honestly let's pretend we went with your way. Let's say she continues her job, and tomorrow she decides to ask every couple who comes in if they had premarital sex, and if they did, she denies them a license. Would you be okay with that? Do you not understand how much of a problem it is for religion to interfere with laws? There is a reason we have separation of state and religion, and this is the perfect example of it. What is so hard for you to grasp? Stop making lopsided, insane comparisons that aren't even relevant to this discussion.
Why aren't you understanding that it is this woman who is forcing her views on people and not the other way around? No one gives a hoot that she is a practicing Christian. She can do whatever in her personal time, but she is impacting people's lives just because. As someone with a heritage that doesn't even come close to identifying with the Christian religion, your viewpoints are scary as heck. Separation of religion and state means that as a Hindu I should not have to worry about a Christian infringing on my rights as a citizen of this country. Is that hard to grasp? You are basically saying it is okay for the Christian faith to take precedent over not only the law but every single other religion being practiced in this country. You haven't directly said that, but that is what you are indirectly saying by defending this woman.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
She refused to do her job as a state employee.
Trying refusing to do your job at work and see what happens.
Interestingly enough I just read about a Muslim flight attendant in Michigan that was recently suspended from her job for refusing to serve alcohol and is suing the carrier. I'm curious to see if the holy warrior brigade comes to her defense.
Again, she took a OATH of OFFICE. It doesn't matter that the law changed while she served- she swore that she would uphold the laws of the land, period. Lying to get a job should not be rewarded.
I don't begrudge her try to find a way to accommodate her belief. Protest and disobedience are needed sometime to bring about change. But once the writing was on the wall, she needed to willfully vacate that position if she was no longer able to full her oath.
There a plenty legitimate religious accommodation that can be done withing the government (personal dress attire, additional sacred holidays off, additional break time and space for personal daily prayer.) But the line is drawn at when personal conviction impedes upon the public. She doesn't get to claim victim status when she is the source of victimizing others.
I understand you, no system of laws is perfect. This case in point that in Kentucky because she is elected official and the legislature doesn't meet again until January, she simply cannot be removed or transfer to a different position. The people of the county should not be held in legal limbo because of her conviction.
To further my position, jail time was required in the face of her obstinance . Should it be indefinite? No- a week to a month would be enough for me to make the point. Any pension she has accrued up to this time should be rewarded. If she willing vacates the position, perhaps she could transfer to another government position which doesn't offend her conviction? Also, I think a special session of the Kentucky legislature needs to be held to resolve this issue ASAP, new election needs to be held, and a temporary clerk needs to be assigned to fill the gap.
This, GA, this.
Bull. Shit.
If anyone else, of any faith or no faith, pulled the same shit she has, they'd be in the exact same position.
There is no anti-Christian element to this whatsoever, beyond the behaviour of the lady in question.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
Only because someone who isn't a christian would probably be more accepting of same sex marriage.
She isn't being persecuted against purely because she is christian, she is being persecuted against because she isn't fulfilling her duties of the oath she took when she took the job.
If her faith is interfering with her ability to do her job then step aside or step down. There are other clerks in the office that can and are issuing licences, why can't she let them issue them?
She is supposedly born again after the four marriages, three divorces and bastard children from her affair. Why can't she pray for forgiveness once she issues a marriage license to same sex couple?
1. You can't simply dismiss any sort of criticism of your argument by saying that there are two sides that will never agree and leave it at that.
2. She was hired to do a job regardless of the people she is serving. She isn't allowed to refuse people like that. She doesn't own a private business. If she doesn't want to do her job, she can leave. Nothing is keeping her there. Saying it is denying her faith because she can't do the main part of her job and still keep it is insane.
4. There is more to that quote by the way, that paint christian philosophers in a different light.
"The desire to justify a particular form of political organization and, in some cases,
of a personal will to power, has played an equally large
part in the formulation of philosophies postulating the
existence of a meaning in the world. Christian philosophers
have found no difficulty in justifying imperialism, war, the
capitalistic system, the use of torture, the censorship of the
press, and ecclesiastical tyrannies of every sort, from the
tyranny of Rome to the tyrannies of Geneva and New
England. In all these cases they have shown that the
meaning of the world was such as to be compatible with, or
actually most completely expressed by, the iniquities I have
mentioned above iniquities which happened, of course, to
serve the personal or sectarian interests of the philosophers
concerned."
Huxley seems more concerned with using meaning and meaninglessness to justify your own personal views regardless of what camp you're in. Any philosopher worth his salt would tell you that his quote about meaninglessness for the sake of a personal agenda makes no sense. Most of us try to find meaning in things, what is the right way to live and act, etc. using LOGIC. We try to answer questions in a world that is confusing and baffling. I don't know if you're using that quote to try and imply that the opposite of the christian worldview is a view of meaninglessness or what. But it really makes no sense in this context.
Stolen from somewhere else:
Kim Davis is the bus driver if he refused to drive African Americans after the law was changed.
Holding her up as a paragon of righteousness completely ignores her buffet table approach to her own biblical literalism. A thrice divorced woman with long hair, a denim dress and a rayon top would have been stoned to death by proper Old Testament adherents. She's ignoring the New Testament message of love and Christ's specific instruction to obey the rule of law and every thinking person knows she's doing this from a place of hatred and vanity.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Knowing that it seems like she had no choice other than to resign since the County Clerk statement had to be on the paper work, unless another County Clerk could have been used in her place.
Ban Puncher
Member
It's time for the Puritans to bail out of Godless America like it was 1620.
Maybe snap up some of those vacant African or Middle East countries that were emptied out by other religious hardliners.
America 2 - America Harder
Maybe snap up some of those vacant African or Middle East countries that were emptied out by other religious hardliners.
America 2 - America Harder
Very true. Also add in the fact she was completely fine with handing out divorce certificates.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
The fact that 90% of the country just sees her as a joke and a funny internet meme gives me hope for the country.
Your worldview argument is overblown and full of pompousness. The discussion on worldview in this debate is irrelevant. Laws are laws. Whether she likes it or not, she has to follow the law. If she doesn't like it, it's jail time, and rightly so. This country wasn't founded on religion and religion has no place in how the government is run. We can "agree to disagree" all you want, you can throw out there "but our worldviews are different" all you want, but at the end of the day, my worldview vs your worldview make zero difference. She has rules and laws to follow as an *impartial* elected official. And if she doesn't follow them, she gets put in jail. Period.
VivaciousSoul
Member
Hopefully this is the situation that the Kentucky legislature needs to fill in this gap of being out of session so nothing can be done. The result will be a positive change to the law. And hopefully it can be as simple as an emergency session can be called when necessary although it's never that simple. It brings back feelings that I had during the last government shutdown. You mean to tell me there's not like an emergency lever somewhere that we can pull that will allow people to get on with their lives? Like two cars on a collision course. Are we so terrible that we're determined to see this thing all the way through? Maybe not. I love when we can reach a compromise. It just a shame that it has to get super uncomfortable before it happens.
And yeah some of those sound like good compromises for people with different beliefs. It inspires confidence when wherever one turns there is visible progress and solutions on various sticking points. It inspires confidence when one has benefits that they didn't even know that they had because others have traveled the path before. I'll tell you right now as a brown skin person I am absolutely grateful to the work done before I existed. Can't think of any other time I would rather live during. Because of this situation in Kentucky, because someone could possibly have to wait until January before everything is sorted out someone in 2016 will have smooth passage. We'll continue to make mistakes, hopefully we never stop trying to get it right after those mistakes.
Read the FAQ in the op
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
You poor junior.
Reading through the thread, in the US her position is elected thus she can't be fired. I think this is covered in the read the F.A.Q portion
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