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[Suikoguy]

Find me one more, and i'll update the image.

 

[DarthWoo]

You think you're Rosa Parks.

But you're actually George Wallace.

Meh, makes her seem more important than she really is. She's just a low level functionary enjoying her ability to abuse her power. I think the more apt comparison would be to the bus driver.

 

[Zoe]

Her assertion that this was her personal religious conviction fell apart when she told her clerks they couldn't sign and became laughable when her lawyer went on the first of his many overreaching rants. This is now a political vehicle and I hope the wheels come off quickly.

I don't know if the judge changed this, but she wouldn't allow the deputy clerks to do it because it would still be her name on the form. She was okay with allowing another elected official to sign the form, but that's not allowed by the state.

 

[Omega]

And yet there are tons of people that will never forgive Michael Vick, a guy that has done everything he can to atone, from serving a debt to society, paying fines, becoming a spokesman for the Humane Society and speaking out against animal violence.

Short of getting into a time machine, there is nothing more he can do, yet you have people that refuse to acknowledge the steps he has taken (and maintained for the last 7 years btw).

So yeah, people don't have to acknowledge her being "born again" if they choose not to.

You're missing one key fact.

Vick is black, she is white. She gets the free pass.

 

[Suikoguy]

So, I need a new Ghandi:

Any suggestions?

 

[Dude Abides]

So, I need a new Ghandi:



Any suggestions?

Jefferson Davis? Stonewall Jackson? Nathan Bedford Forrest?

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Jefferson Davis? Stonewall Jackson? Nathan Bedford Forrest?

Ideally, it would be someone who blocked a group from getting access to something that was otherwise perfectly legal.

 

[Aylinato]

Ideally, it would be someone who blocked a group from getting access to something that was otherwise perfectly legal.

So all governors and politicians in the entire south until 1964. Minus a few of course, but they would be the exceptions.

Spoiler

like it stopped after 1964 :/

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Something about all these conservatives advocating theocracy both amuses and infuriates me.

 

[Ponn]

I am not going to respond to everyone. What I will say is that this clerk is entitled to believe what she wants and so are those that believe she is wrong. Each person is a moral being created with intrinsic value and worth. People are free to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, or they are free to redefine marriage to mean whatever they want it to mean (like what happened this year). Both views take a moral stand and make an absolute claim for their beliefs: each side believes that their belief is right. It would be ludicrous to believe, as moral beings, that everyone is going to agree with everyone else, or that everyone should be forced to believe what the other believes.

My person complaint is that I see (as do others) history about to repeat itself. I think Herbert Butterfield's (Regius Professor of History and Vice-Chancellor of the University of Cambridge) analysis on human nature in the aftermath of World War 2 explains the clash of worldviews that this thread and many in the United States espouse and ultimately where it will lead:



Regardless if what a person believes, history bares the scares of what happens when a society declares one side to be morally incorrect and at some point does everything in its power to eliminate those that hold to a contrary point of view. There is just no way this is going to be avoided.

People with religious beliefs never want to stick around and debate because they know their arguments fall apart quickly. It's always hit and run posts. Because of the christian persecution or some other bullshit excuse instead of not admitting when your argument is flawed.

1) It's ludicrous to compare one groups beliefs who actually wants to take rights away and treat another group as lesser human beings to another groups beliefs who do not effect the others in any way shape or form.

2) enacting the boogeyman fear mongering of gay marriage? Really? OH THE HORROR AND APOCALYPSE THAT IS TO COME!

 

[Suikoguy]

For lack of a better option:

Was actually kinda surprised searches did not bring up other similar people.

Left to right; Jefferson Davis, George Wallace, Keith Bardwell

 

[Volimar]

Ideally, it would be someone who blocked a group from getting access to something that was otherwise perfectly legal.

You already got the anti gay bakers?

 

[Aselith]

For lack of a better option:



Was actually kinda surprised searches did not bring up other similar people.

Left to right; Jefferson Davis, George Wallace, Keith Bardwell

Now make Jesus Glen Beck

 

[shem935]

Now make Jesus Glen Beck

 

[VivaciousSoul]

I do believe that if this was a belief that she has held for a long time and the law was changed after she was in her office there should be a way someone else to issue the licenses and for her to keep the rest of her position until her elected time was up.

 

[soco]

I do believe that if this was a belief that she has held for a long time and the law was changed after she was in her office there should be a way someone else to issue the licenses and for her to keep the rest of her position until her elected time was up.

that's a cash reward for someone unwilling to do their job, and beyond absurd. This didn't come out of left-field. It's been an issue for years, and anyone who has read/watched/listened to news in the the last 15 years could see it was going to happen. Either don't take the position if you can't do all the aspects of it, or resign like a reasonable person.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

I do believe that if this was a belief that she has held for a long time and the law was changed after she was in her office there should be a way someone else to issue the licenses and for her to keep the rest of her position until her elected time was up.

I don't remember anything in the bible about not signing the states paperwork if you don't like the folks applying for it.

All her job requires is she check to make sure the paperwork is in order and the folks can legally apply for it. She's not being asked to personally wed them, not anything else.

It's really the equal of saying 'I don't believe blacks are people, therefore, I refuse to issue this birth certificate'.

IF she is unable to preform this task, the proper corset is to resign that office.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I'll take these people seriously when these "liberty" defenders are okay with someone not comfortable with giving out concealed carry permits because they believe in a religion of peace and no weaponry.

If these liberteez defenders do that, then they might be onto something. But these people are so ideologically inconsistent.

 

[Damaniel]

I do believe that if this was a belief that she has held for a long time and the law was changed after she was in her office there should be a way someone else to issue the licenses and for her to keep the rest of her position until her elected time was up.

But she doesn't want anyone else in her office issuing the licenses - the act of the licenses being issued at all is too much for her.

I'm glad that deputy clerks are issuing them now, but the only long term solution to this problem is for her to resign or for the legislature to figure out a way to force her out.

 

[rjinaz]

I do believe that if this was a belief that she has held for a long time and the law was changed after she was in her office there should be a way someone else to issue the licenses and for her to keep the rest of her position until her elected time was up.

When they take the office they vow to uphold the law, not uphold the law provisionally.

 

[Dai101]

I think these people have a very tenuous grasp on history.

And, you know, REALITY.

 

[Cyan]

I do believe that if this was a belief that she has held for a long time and the law was changed after she was in her office there should be a way someone else to issue the licenses and for her to keep the rest of her position until her elected time was up.

If I understand correctly, the judge gave her the option to authorize her deputy clerks to issue licenses. She chose jail.

 

[Angelus Errare]

But she issued those divorce certificates with no problem tho...

 

[John Kowalski]

Thanks FAQ.

 

[Pillville]

I do believe that if this was a belief that she has held for a long time and the law was changed after she was in her office there should be a way someone else to issue the licenses and for her to keep the rest of her position until her elected time was up.

The whole point of government is to pass laws.

She took a government job. Pretty sure she knows that laws pass all the time that can change her job.

We don't allow government officials selectively decide what new laws they want to enforce, that would be beyond ridiculous. The whole fucking system would collapse.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Sucks that there's no easy solution for all of this. I can't believe she's gonna stand her ground after a couple days in jail. But, with the judge saying they'll revisit it all in a week, I hope they don't just let her go out of frustration.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

The whole point of government is to pass laws.

She took a government job. Pretty sure she knows that laws pass all the time that can change her job.

We don't allow government officials selectively decide what new laws they want to enforce, that would be beyond ridiculous. The whole fucking system would collapse.

Well, technically there have been laws that Obama has said he will not enforce. I don't mean that in a defense of Davis, just saying that technically it can be done.

 

[MJPIA]

I was doing some reading up on the judge, found these two articles and since this seems to be the discussion thread and I don't think they've been posted I figured I'd put them here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/04/u...s-kentucky-judge-david-bunning-kim-davis.html

Long before he ordered a county clerk to jail on Thursday for refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses, David L. Bunning first drew attention as a federal judge for a ruling on gay rights.

In 2003, he ordered the school system of rural Boyd County, Ky., to allow a student group, the Gay-Straight Alliance, to meet on school grounds. He later oversaw a legal settlement that included anti-harassment sessions for the system’s students.

Judge Bunning, 49, arrived on the bench with what looked like a conservative pedigree. A former federal prosecutor, he was appointed to the court by President George W. Bush. He is a son of former Senator Jim Bunning of Kentucky, a conservative Republican who is a former major league pitcher who was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1996.

On Thursday, Judge Bunning found Ms. Davis in contempt for defying the federal court and ordered her held in jail. “Her good faith belief is simply not a viable defense,” the judge, wearing a bow tie, said from the bench. He noted that, “I myself have genuinely held religious beliefs,” but added that he took an oath of office to uphold the law.

“Mrs. Davis took an oath,” he said “Oaths mean things.” In his personal views, “I think it’s fair to say” the judge is conservative, said Steve Pendery, the judge executive, or chief executive, of Campbell County, Ky., who is a friend of the judge. “For him, I’m sure this is not a political thing, just a matter of the law.”

In fact, the judge’s mother, Mary Bunning, told The Cincinnati Enquirer, “He doesn’t agree with the Supreme Court but has to obey the law.”

But lawyers who have practiced before Judge Bunning and occasionally see him at lawyers’ social functions call him very measured and a man who keeps his opinions to himself.

After the initial resolution of the Boyd County case, Judge Bunning decided against the school system again in 2006, ruling that it could not let students who opposed gay rights opt out of anti-harassment sessions. He was overruled by an appellate court.

In 2007, sitting temporarily on the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, he was part of a three-judge panel that unanimously struck down a Michigan law banning the procedure that abortion opponents call partial-birth abortion.

In 2011, he sided with the coal industry and against environmentalists, upholding a federal permit process that made it easier to get permission for “mountaintop removal” mining. The Sixth Circuit later overturned that ruling.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/new...-debate-leaves-political-views-home/71609688/
Mark Guilfoyle, a Northern Kentucky attorney and prominent Democrat, vouched for David Bunning when Bush nominated him. Guilfoyle grew up with the judge in Fort Thomas.

He described Bunning as an “accomplished jurist” who has said in open court that when he doesn’t know the answer, he will take the time to find one.

“He leaves his political views at home,” Guilfoyle said. “Any litigant can rest assured that Judge Bunning is going to look at a case with reference to precedent and legal authorities without any preconceived prejudice.”

I probably disagree with him over a lot of his political and religious views but I have tremendous respect for him as a judge.
Going into this he had to have known that his own political party would crucify him over this ruling but he still did it anyways.

 

[VivaciousSoul]

that's a cash reward for someone unwilling to do their job, and beyond absurd. This didn't come out of left-field. It's been an issue for years, and anyone who has read/watched/listened to news in the the last 15 years could see it was going to happen. Either don't take the position if you can't do all the aspects of it, or resign like a reasonable person.

Surely she must have had other duties. I do a million things at work. If one of those thing is taken away from me I still feel as though I am of value for all of the other things.

I don't remember anything in the bible about not signing the states paperwork if you don't like the folks applying for it.

All her job requires is she check to make sure the paperwork is in order and the folks can legally apply for it. She's not being asked to personally wed them, not anything else.

It's really the equal of saying 'I don't believe blacks are people, therefore, I refuse to issue this birth certificate'.

IF she is unable to preform this task, the proper corset is to resign that office.

Indeed it is very unreasonable of her. She has attempted to stop people from living their lives the way that they want to live them even though she's no major player in the process. It isn't her who is letting the couple get married. They have made that decision. Her conscious shouldn't feel threatened. At the same time (though not particularly for her) I do feel for people when the terms are updated and there's no grandfather clause. It's like when the PSN store gets closed until you reaccept this agreement that we added some changes to. Sometimes just resign isn't sufficient when wellbeing is at stake.

So yeah I'm black. I know what it's like just be minding your business taking a walk in your own neighborhood and the police roll up and start putting their hands in your pockets. I'm going to need some advance warning before we get demoted back down to 3/5 of a person or not even a people at all

But she doesn't want anyone else in her office issuing the licenses - the act of the licenses being issued at all is too much for her.

I'm glad that deputy clerks are issuing them now, but the only long term solution to this problem is for her to resign or for the legislature to figure out a way to force her out.

I didn't realize that it was that bad. I think not wanting to do it herself has gone a bit too far beyond reasonableness but wanting to stop others from doing it also displays clear intentions. I guess I'm just surprised at how bold she is now. (Did I hear correctly that she was making statements from jail or something?) The boldness to keep on going kind of reminds me of Donald Trump in a way. You think it can't go any further but then it goes like 10 times further.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Well, technically there have been laws that Obama has said he will not enforce. I don't mean that in a defense of Davis, just saying that technically it can be done.

Well, not quite. What they are is of a lesser priority, given the limited resources to enforce the law with.

That doesn't apply here. There is not a lack of resources to issue the licenses, the clerk just doesn't want to. This provides a barrier, unlawfully, between a citizen and legal paperwork they are entitled to by right.

 

[massoluk]

I've been reading and rereading this sentence for 10 minutes and still don't understand what your basis is for suggesting her attorney should be disbarred.

There have been some saying Liberty Counsel isn't really advising the client if they actually got legal ground to stand on.

http://www.courier-journal.com/stor...davis-counsel-did-they-do-her-right/71663292/
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34155777

 

[hsikod]

The only shitty thing about this is that she's about to get a "legal defense fund" GoFundMe that's going to net her like a hundred grand.

If it is out of stupid religious people's pockets, who cares?

 

[Zoe]

I didn't realize that it was that bad. I think not wanting to do it herself has gone a bit too far beyond reasonableness but wanting to stop others from doing it also displays clear intentions. I guess I'm just surprised at how bold she is now. (Did I hear correctly that she was making statements from jail or something?) The boldness to keep on going kind of reminds me of Donald Trump in a way. You think it can't go any further but then it goes like 10 times further.

She didn't want to allow them because it would still be her name on the certificate. She tried to get a lower court to allow other elected officials to sign the document.

 

[VivaciousSoul]

When they take the office they vow to uphold the law, not uphold the law provisionally.

The whole point of government is to pass laws.

She took a government job. Pretty sure she knows that laws pass all the time that can change her job.

We don't allow government officials selectively decide what new laws they want to enforce, that would be beyond ridiculous. The whole fucking system would collapse.

The law is the law and it should be obeyed. At the same time the law can and has in the past said a lot of scary and unjust things. (The this is a court of law rather than a court of justice quote comes to mind.) I will never be convinced that the law is good simply because it is the law. We the people make the law. We the people make mistakes. Anyone whose personal beliefs are in conflict with the law should be planning their escape ASAP from an office that requires them to enforce the law. Of this we agree. I still expect that as a people who hold justice to be so paramount that there be provision (only reasonable provision) for one to make their escape. It doesn't appear as if she wanted to escape so she got what she had coming.

 

[linkboy]

I do believe that if this was a belief that she has held for a long time and the law was changed after she was in her office there should be a way someone else to issue the licenses and for her to keep the rest of her position until her elected time was up.

Cool, as a member of the military, I dont have to fight in future combat situations since they weren't an enemy when I joined.

And a secret service agent who voted for the losing president shouldn't have to protect the current one because he (or she) disagrees witb their political stance.

I'm sorry, but that's absurd. She's unwilling to do tbe job, so she shouldn't get paid for the job.

 

[shinra-bansho]

No one is supposed to know about the Gay Gestapo.

I'll have to alert my handler the secret is out.

 

[Ayt]

I do believe that if this was a belief that she has held for a long time and the law was changed after she was in her office there should be a way someone else to issue the licenses and for her to keep the rest of her position until her elected time was up.

Her job is to carry out the laws of the land. She took an oath to that effect when she took office. Guess what. Laws change. She still has to do her job. If she can't for whatever reason, she can resign.

What would you say if it was 1967 and she refused to recognize interracial marriage?

 

[Man God]

No one is supposed to know about the Gay Gestapo.

I'll have to alert my handler the secret is out.

At least you didn't mention their actual name, the Gaystapo.

 

[Rebel Leader]

No one is supposed to know about the Gay Gestapo.

I'll have to alert my handler the secret is out.

The secret is not out yet.

We call it misinformation.

Just like how Area 51 is really just there to distract from area 52.


Shit. I spilled the beans. Bail out!

 

[VivaciousSoul]

Cool, as a member of the military, I dont have to fight in future combat situations since they weren't an enemy when I joined.

And a secret service agent who voted for the losing president shouldn't have to protect the current one because he (or she) disagrees witb their political stance.

I'm sorry, but that's absurd. She's unwilling to do tbe job, so she shouldn't get paid for the job.

In one situation people die because they randomly decided to stop doing their job, a job that likely was not even fundamentally against their beliefs by virtue of them previously fighting (maybe even killing) to protect and in the other there is a compromise where the duty of the office is still carried out while someone with deep inner conflict for one portion of their job continues to do their other duties while hopefully planning their resignation. Sorry but I don't see it as the same.

 

[Ayt]

In one situation people die because they randomly decided to stop doing their job, a job that likely was not even fundamentally against their beliefs by virtue of them previously fighting (maybe even killing) to protect and in the other there is a compromise where the duty of the office is still carried out while someone with deep inner conflict for one portion of their job continues to do their other duties while hopefully planning their resignation. Sorry but I don't see it as the same.

She wasn't planning her resignation and she hasn't been willing to compromise. Her position is that she is the ultimate authority on the law in this case. Through her actions, she has placed herself above the supreme court.

I, Kim Davis, a small time government official in a county of 23K, get to decide what is a legitimate marriage in this part of the country.

Who knows, maybe tomorrow she'll have a revelation and will decide people who have been divorced can't legally remarry.

 

[VivaciousSoul]

She wasn't planning her resignation and she hasn't been willing to compromise. Her position is that she is the ultimate authority on the law in this case. Through her actions, she has placed herself above the supreme court.

Indeed

It doesn't appear as if she wanted to escape so she got what she had coming.

Edit: I suppose I should mention that it was in the process of these series of posts that I realized that she was just being difficult and defiant. When I first started posting I was under the impression that it was less fair than it actually was.

 

[Hellwarden]

So...

...how long before she has a book deal or series of exclusive interviews, and never has to worry about money again?

Granted, maybe she was well off before hand, who knows?

 

[Ayt]

So...

...how long before she has a book deal or series of exclusive interviews, and never has to worry about money again?

Granted, maybe she was well off before hand, who knows?

Why does it matter? I've seen this sentiment come up several times in this thread, but it shouldn't be a factor in how people interpret this case. We shouldn't placate to the delusional who think we live in a theocracy, and we certainly shouldn't feel bad about offending their delicate sensibilities nor should we humor their misunderstanding of the fundamental underpinnings of this country. Despite their protestations, we are not a Christian nation and that fact needs to be asserted forcefully when challenged.

 

[Hellwarden]

Why does it matter?

I know it probably sounds petulant.

But it bugs me when people get rich off ignorance.

But you're right, it really doesn't matter.

 

[Yaboosh]

I know it probably sounds petulant.

But it bugs me when people get rich off ignorance.

But you're right, it really doesn't matter.

I feel you, it bugs me too.

 

[Phreaker]

If she doesn't want to follow the law she should quit, or just rot in jail. So happy this has happened.

 

[linkboy]

In one situation people die because they randomly decided to stop doing their job, a job that likely was not even fundamentally against their beliefs by virtue of them previously fighting (maybe even killing) to protect and in the other there is a compromise where the duty of the office is still carried out while someone with deep inner conflict for one portion of their job continues to do their other duties while hopefully planning their resignation. Sorry but I don't see it as the same.

You'd have a point if she was willing to let those under her sign those licenses, however, she isnt.

In fact, her lawyer has said that the ones that were issued are invalid because she didnt sign them.

Also, my point was more to the fact that just because the law changed doesn't absolve her from following it because she disagrees with it.

Kim Davis is basically making up her own law in Kentucky because SHE disagrees with the current one. In her, and her supporters minds, the USA is a theocracy and we're all subjects to the Christian God, no matter what your beliefs are.

That's one of the biggest reasons why the people who founded this country left England in the first place and why freedom of religion is in the first amendment.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

lol

 

[A Human Becoming]

So it's clear: Her signature is the only place her name would be on the paperwork, right? If someone else signed it her name would not show up anywhere else?