Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Mase went 4x plat and gold twice
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GAF-Hop |OT8| Let Blackace Down
- Thread starter enzo_gt
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Mase went 4x plat and gold twice
MorisUkunRasik
Member
I'm laughing. And not with you.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Jay's career has been far better
This post brought to you by 2003.
Also in no way did Jay father Ye's style. There is like... nothing in common between their styles. I can't even think of a hater angle to explain that from.
Kanye West doesnt exist without Jay. No major label wanted him. Without Dame and Jay giving him the tools funding and exposure he needed, Kanye West has a Phonte level career. Thats just how it is.
Kind of like how Em would be a shitty white Nas impersonation without Dre.
edit2 : I'm definitely trolling, but even his producer career wouldnt be what it is.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
I assume you meant without Ye...
Yeah he would have lost some, but really Jay was working with every producer there was..
That's great and all, but it still doesn't explain anything about how Jay had any influence on Ye's style. If anything, it's been the other way around when it comes to serving production alongside Just, and predominantly later in Jay's career when he started falling off.
The Blueprint was Jay's lowest selling album in his prime. Without Ye, maybe it does more? The one time he lent creative control to Ye, he sold less. Without Ye, he loses some good songs and ... Watch the Throne... Which is also no great loss. WTT might actually not have the legs Magna Carta does.
Basically.
He didn't show him how to make moves, help him craft hits, give him industry connects, or advice? I think you need to look at the executive production credits on TCD at least...
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
falling off? Jay has yet to release a non-Platinum album...
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Pretty hard to have a style if you don't have a career. I mean, even Ye says he wanted to be like "big brother."
guys Jay-Z had no impact on Kanye West's music
It's the Hard Knock Life Tour, sellout; picture
Us in the mall, coppin' Iceberg and yell out "Jigga"
Yeah, that's what we'll yell out, yell out
You know the name do I gotta spell out or tell 'bout
J-A-Y, and 'Ye so shy
Now he won't even step to his idol to say hi
Standing there like a mime and let the chance pass by
Back of my mind, "He could change your life
With all these beats I did, at least let him hear it
At least you can brag to ya friends back at the gig"
But he got me out me out my momma crib
Then he help me get my momma a crib
Fresh off the plane, I'm off to Baseline
Nothing handed out, I'm 'bout to take mine
'round the same time of that Blueprint 1
And these beats in my pocket was that blueprint for him
I'd play my little songs in that old back room
He'd bob his head and say "Damn! Oh, that's you?"
But by The Black Album, I was blacking out
Partyin' S.O.B.'s and we had packed a crowd
Big brother got his show up at Madison Square
And I'm like "Yeah, yeah, we gon' be there"
But not only did I not get a chance to spit it
Carline told me I could buy two tickets
I guess big brother was thinkin' a little different
And kept little brother at bay, at a distance
But everything that I felt was more bogus
Only made me more focused, only wrote more potent
Only thing I wanna know is why I get looked over
I guess I'll understand when I get more older
Big brother saw me at the bottom of the totem
Now I'm on the top and everybody on the scrotum
Have you ever walked in the shadow of a giant?
Not only a client, the Presidito, hola, Hovito
The game gettin' foul so here's a free throw
I was always on the other side of the peephole
Then I dropped "Jesus Walks" now I'm on the steeple
And we know, "New Jack City" got to keep my brother
But to be number one I'mma beat my brother
On that "Diamonds" remix I swore I spazzed
Then my big brother came through and kicked my ass
Sibling rivalry, only I could see
It was the pride in me that was drivin' me
At the Grammys I said, "I inspired me"
But my big brother who I always tried to be
When I kicked a flow it like pick-and-roll
Cause even if he gave me the rock, it's give-and-go
I guess Beanie's style was more of a slam dunk
But my shit was more like a finger roll
But I had them singles though
And them hoes at the show gonna mingle, yo, heh, y'all know
I told Jay I did a song with Coldplay
Next thing I know he got a song with Coldplay
Back in my mind I'm like "Damn, no way"
Translate, espanol "No way, Jose"
Then I went and told Jay Brown
Shoulda known that was gonna come back around
Shoulda talked to you like a man, shoulda told you first
But I told somebody else and that's what made shit worse
My big brother was B.I.G.'s brother
So here's a few words from ya kid brother
If you admire somebody you should go on 'head tell 'em
People never get the flowers while they can still smell 'em
A idol in my eyes, God of the game
Heart of the city, Roc-a-Fella chain
Never be the same, never be another
Number one, Young Hov, also my big brother'
It's the Hard Knock Life Tour, sellout; picture
Us in the mall, coppin' Iceberg and yell out "Jigga"
Yeah, that's what we'll yell out, yell out
You know the name do I gotta spell out or tell 'bout
J-A-Y, and 'Ye so shy
Now he won't even step to his idol to say hi
Standing there like a mime and let the chance pass by
Back of my mind, "He could change your life
With all these beats I did, at least let him hear it
At least you can brag to ya friends back at the gig"
But he got me out me out my momma crib
Then he help me get my momma a crib
Fresh off the plane, I'm off to Baseline
Nothing handed out, I'm 'bout to take mine
'round the same time of that Blueprint 1
And these beats in my pocket was that blueprint for him
I'd play my little songs in that old back room
He'd bob his head and say "Damn! Oh, that's you?"
But by The Black Album, I was blacking out
Partyin' S.O.B.'s and we had packed a crowd
Big brother got his show up at Madison Square
And I'm like "Yeah, yeah, we gon' be there"
But not only did I not get a chance to spit it
Carline told me I could buy two tickets
I guess big brother was thinkin' a little different
And kept little brother at bay, at a distance
But everything that I felt was more bogus
Only made me more focused, only wrote more potent
Only thing I wanna know is why I get looked over
I guess I'll understand when I get more older
Big brother saw me at the bottom of the totem
Now I'm on the top and everybody on the scrotum
Have you ever walked in the shadow of a giant?
Not only a client, the Presidito, hola, Hovito
The game gettin' foul so here's a free throw
I was always on the other side of the peephole
Then I dropped "Jesus Walks" now I'm on the steeple
And we know, "New Jack City" got to keep my brother
But to be number one I'mma beat my brother
On that "Diamonds" remix I swore I spazzed
Then my big brother came through and kicked my ass
Sibling rivalry, only I could see
It was the pride in me that was drivin' me
At the Grammys I said, "I inspired me"
But my big brother who I always tried to be
When I kicked a flow it like pick-and-roll
Cause even if he gave me the rock, it's give-and-go
I guess Beanie's style was more of a slam dunk
But my shit was more like a finger roll
But I had them singles though
And them hoes at the show gonna mingle, yo, heh, y'all know
I told Jay I did a song with Coldplay
Next thing I know he got a song with Coldplay
Back in my mind I'm like "Damn, no way"
Translate, espanol "No way, Jose"
Then I went and told Jay Brown
Shoulda known that was gonna come back around
Shoulda talked to you like a man, shoulda told you first
But I told somebody else and that's what made shit worse
My big brother was B.I.G.'s brother
So here's a few words from ya kid brother
If you admire somebody you should go on 'head tell 'em
People never get the flowers while they can still smell 'em
A idol in my eyes, God of the game
Heart of the city, Roc-a-Fella chain
Never be the same, never be another
Number one, Young Hov, also my big brother'
The one time he lent creative control to Ye, it gave him the biggest song of his career that put Jay on a whole other plane of existence in the game. WTT + BP3 were both critical in ascending Jay to pretty much the god status in the game, beyond being a legend. You can't look at sales linearly if your just gonna make attribution errors everywhere.
Of course Jay helped, but before Kanye was at Roc-A-Fella, he was shopping around Jesus Walks and most of the biggest songs of his early career to labels and they wouldn't have it. Listen to Last Call and the Kanye's demo mixtape and it's pretty clear Jay didn't do much for Ye creatively. He gave him the platform and is the sole reason Ye is where he is, but creatively? Nah. Jay reiterates Ye making his own lane too.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
WTT + BP3 had the exact opposite of propelling Jay to rap god status. And Jay existed without Ye and was an enormous multi-multi platinum artist without Ye. Without Jay, nobody would even know who Ye was. These are facts
Are you saying that song is... NIP? And that Jay needed WTT and BP3 in his careers? The albums people say are among what people say are among his worst, most washed up, corniest efforts? The biggest song of Jay-Z's career is probably "Can I Get A...". That's the song that took him from a quantity to a business.
Kanye loved Jay so much he recorded the original Let Nas Down. If you're claiming -exec production or otherwise- that Jay isn't an influential force in Kanye's rap sensibilities I don't know what to say.
Why do you persist bringing up facts that have nothing to do with the argument at hand? Ain't nobody arguing Jay put Kanye on, but the music is out there, as explicit as can be. Hear the songs before and after Ye got on the Roc and I see nothing Jay contributed to Ye's style, let alone "fathering" it.
Also WTT + BP3 put Jay on a downturn? Lol get out of here. Empire State of Mind and N***as in Paris exploded in comparison to preceding Jay singles. Even Jay admits Empire State of Mind launched him into another stratosphere.
No, that song is Empire State of Mind. I thought that's what you said, the one time Jay gave Ye creative control with his solo albums. And I never said he needed them, don't know where you got that from. Who cares what rap heads think are his best albums, those albums, BP3 specifically, upped the money he's bringing in significantly. Jay mentioned all this shit in his Breakfast Club + other interviews around MCHG. Not speaking straight from anecdotes here.
If he's an influential force in his style, you need to point it out before saying he fathered it when there are no discernible similarities beyond Jay putting his name on every album that came out of Def Jam.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Uh Enzo, what did Kanye have to do with Empire State of Mind?
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Meh, never found Jay to be that interesting an artist.
Kanye changed the entire direction of BP3. Just following Esch's logic here that the one time Ye got control over Jay's solos it ended terribly. In which case, the opposite occurred. Ye also exec produced BP3.
The Artful Dodger
Member
It is known.
And? What did Ye have to do with that song in particular? Ye wasn't the only exec, Jay also was. Seems like you're attributing things to Kanye without actually having proof of him doing anything.
MuddyDonut
Member
It's because he's not most of the time. He does have his moments though.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Executive producing in itself prescribes a producer looking over an album and ensuring every song is made the best it can be even within the album. He's indirectly involved, but I'm not attributing Empire State of Mind's success to Kanye's involvement in the project at large, I'm just saying if you're going to use the argument that when Kanye got creative control in one of Jay's album's it put Jay in a worse place (even if you choose sales as a specific metric for measure), that's not the case. Like I said, I'm just following Esch' logic.
enzo_gt said:
So which is it? Did he get the biggest song of his career from giving creative control to Ye or not?
The Artful Dodger
Member
I always kinda thought of American Gangster as the real Blueprint 3, but I can get behind that Holy Grail too.
Sonically speaking, how significant were those contributions? Would you say that Kanye had a greater influence on BP1 or 3? Because to me.... BP3 sounds like what it is. A well marketed bit of water treading with beats from a variety of producers... and to be honest I don't hear Kanye's fingerprints on their tracks the way I did on WTT, as another example of a dual produced exec album by those two. And look at MCHG, it's going to pass BP3 and WTT on albums sold, samsunggate being what it is. it's probably going to pass double plat.
Those two statements aren't contradictory, and in the framework of the argument, Ye's involvement is assumed as the probably cause (Esch's post I quoted). So I rebut by saying that no, because Ye's name was attached to that album, Jay's career did not go south.
Well, you definitely have to give Kanye credit for giving Jay Empire State and Young Forever. Those are 2 of the 4 big songs from BP3, the other two being On to the Next One and Death of Auto Tune. But the whole narrative you guys suggest... That Jay has been riding on Kanye's coattails and that Jay needs Kanye is pretty much false given the success of Magna Carta. Even with WTT, you could argue that Jay's input made the album as commercially successful as it was, using MBTDF and Yeezus as foils; both of which are significantly more trended toward artistic visions over commercial ones. And when it comes down to it; MCHG feels and sounds quite a bit like WTT.
No you don't. Kanye had nothing to do with that song.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Jesus, dude. NiP was in no way Jay's biggest hit. It was his 18th top ten hit and it only hit number 5. Hell, Hard Knock Life did more work in 98.
I meant Run this Town. derp.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
I don't put much weight into album sells when comparing artists, unless you're comparing popularity. Kanye has put out better music imo, that's all I care about.
It's hard to say. obviously Ye had a role in BP1, but BP3 you can't hammer it down because you don't know how many of those beats Ye brought to the table that weren't Ye's, and in raw numbers,
Just looking at the numbers, BP3 had nearly half of those songs produced or co-produced by Ye, and one other that we know he worked on and argued with Jay about significantly but is not accredited for (DOA). On top of that there are records Ye might have brought to the table that weren't his, but you can't say for sure (On To The Next One for instance wasn't one of those). BP1, Ye only has 4/13, with a bigger imprint Just Blaze had at the time as well, who also had an influence on Ye's production at the time, moreso than say, during BP3. I hear more Ye in those beats and with some of the drums and sounds than I do in BP1, and furthermore with some of the feature selection.
I'm not suggesting that. Jay doesn't need anyone, he can do what the fuck he wants because he survived an era long past and he rooted himself as a cultural icon. BP3 was just filled with hit after hit after hit, and Ye was fairly instrumental in the segue even leading up to Empire State of Mind. Agree about WTT, but I don't really hear WTT in MCHG.
I didn't say NiP was his biggest hit. Are you even reading? Also, comparing chart placing historically is pretty stupid considering how much the industry has changed and the growth of hip-hop at large. You may as well be comparing record sales 3 decades ago to now.
Agreed. College Dropout came out at a perfect time for me, senior year of HS if I remember right...fuck I feel old.
Fair enough Enzo. I would agree that it's hard to say which album Kanye had a greater impact on. My point was simply that Jay is influential on Kanye's music and life(of course the other way around is true) and that Jay's output as of late isn't the symbiote with Kanye I think people portray it as. I do really disagree about MCHG, it's an overproduced album about ballin with a touch of personal stuff here and there. And that's pretty much what WTT is.
I still think you calling NiP Jay's biggest song is straight up ridiculous though.
I still think you calling NiP Jay's biggest song is straight up ridiculous though.
Tough to say, I prefer more of Ye's albums, but Jay has some serious classics under his belt. Black Album, Blueprint, and Reasonable Doubt. Course Ye has College Dropout, Late Registration, MBDTF, and 808's.
I definitely like Ye more, but he's one of my favorite rappers.
im selling my backwards compat ps3 if anyone wants it
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=82241785&postcount=17344
gaf hop can get da hook up
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=82241785&postcount=17344
gaf hop can get da hook up
I don't think MCHG is overproduced. I just think the production is a lot better than the rapping. I still think it is a good album.
About a year ago I realized that anything Ye puts out I will grow to like eventually, no matter if I am indifferent or dislike it at the time. But I maintain that I am critical of Ye because I still fucking hate Drunk and Hot Girls.
*heads off to do paper I've been procrastinating on*
Lol not even a ye Stan could like that piece of shit. I blame mos def tbh.
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
In his closet is a shrine built for yeezus. Cardboard cut outs and everything.
Tbh honest though. At least he reps the right team.
#CudiStayLosing.
This post is brought to you by Prozac, the number one brand of a cudi Stan.
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