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GAF-Hop |OT8| Let Blackace Down

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Esch

Banned
I don't think MCHG is overproduced. I just think the production is a lot better than the rapping. I still think it is a good album.

It's too overproduced for Jay. Jay should stick with more minimalist beats and include more jawns in his stuff like Heaven nowadays. I enjoy it as well, don't get the hate.

Not all of ye's albums are classic or even near classic but none of them are complete ass (contrary ace's or esch's belief). Jay on the other hand put out a booty album no less than three months ago.

I don't think Kanye has any booty albums except for 808s (just straight booty). But let's keep it real friend. MCHG is Jay's 15th album. That's a lot of music, not including his ridiculous collaboration efforts. You are a straight idiot if you're making this comparison, but we already knew that about you
8KExT.png
 
Kanye had more impact on BP3 than BP1 for the simple fact that Kanye WAS Kanye on BP3, whereas on BP1 he was just an in-house producer. Let's not forget Kanye threw a tantrum when he learned BP3 was going to be an all Timbo album, thus scrapping the original album and leaving us with...well, BP3.

Personally I think Kanye has made modern Jay more than vise versa. In fact Jay-Z wouldn't be nearly as popular without Kanye. It's true Blueprint 1 wasn't dominated by Kanye; let's be honest, Just Blaze would have just had 3-4 extra songs on the album and it would probably be as good.

Post Kanye Jay-Z is...Kingdom Come. Average, forgettable. American Gangster was a big album for Jay, but was limited by its sound/concept; overall it didn't perform as well as his previous albums. BP3 on the other hand was huge. Largely due to Empire State Of Mind, but Kanye's Run This Town was the first single (and a big hit). That's the album that propelled Jay-Z to where he is now.

Let's not forget WTT was a cultural event, even if the album wasn't noteworthy.

MCHG blew up thanks to Justin Timberlake imo.
 
Tough to say, I prefer more of Ye's albums, but Jay has some serious classics under his belt. Black Album, Blueprint, and Reasonable Doubt. Course Ye has College Dropout, Late Registration, MBDTF, and 808's.

I definitely like Ye more, but he's one of my favorite rappers.


If I were to compile a top 5 between both artists it'd be The Black Album and 4 Ye albums.
 

overcast

Member
MCHG blew up thanks to Justin Timberlake imo.
That helped a lot. Suit and Tie helped him in the beginning of the year, then of course JT came through for MCHG. Promotion helped a shit load too, and his name/brand obviously.
If I were to compile a top 5 between both artists it'd be The Black Album and 4 Ye albums.
I think it would be the same for me lol. Honestly though, I'm pretty young. I grew up in an era that has been Kanye dominated. Ye has made albums that span across significant growing moments in my life. Not to mention he's the only rapper I've listened to consistently since I was a kid.

So I do have a bias in this argument. Even off the 90's albums I grew up on, Jay was missing. Big, Pac, Cube, Nas, Scarface etc. No Jay-Z, blame my brother I guess.
 

Esch

Banned
Personally I think Kanye has made modern Jay more than vise versa. In fact Jay-Z wouldn't be nearly as popular without Kanye.

Post Kanye Jay-Z is...Kingdom Come. Average, forgettable. American Gangster was a big album for Jay, but was limited by its sound/concept; overall it didn't perform as well as his previous albums. BP3 on the other hand was huge. Largely due to Empire State Of Mind, but Kanye's Run This Town was the first single (and a big hit). That's the album that propelled Jay-Z to where he is now.

Without Kanye existing.... Jay just has every other hit making producer in hip hop dying to give him beats and every pop and hip hop artist in the world willing to collaborate with him, and the label power to push stuff however he feels like. That simple fact is what I don't think you guys have ever gotten. You guys are talking about Kanye's contributions to the modern Jay-Z like he helped build a building, except you guys hate that building so it all comes off as desperate.

And then you attribute Jay's success with MCHG to Justin Timberlake alone. It would even make more sense if you were to lay that onus on Samsung. This is a typical thing I see from Nas stans on the coli, yourself included; you never acknowledge the simple truth that the reason Jigga is so big is because he's Jigga. You'll attribute it to Kanye helping him out (the irony of what has been demonstrated here), Biggie, Puffy, Jaz, Dame, whoever, anyone but Jay. The ridiculous, circuitously convoluted nature of these observations is funny when you just consider that you could just refer to Occam's razor: Jay-Z's success is due to him being that good and smart.
 

Macca

Member
Speakin of JT, how the heck did Juicy not release The Woods as a single before the album dropped? JT's been blowing up again recently, would've pushed units.

Still think it'll be a single though, but damn it's late.
 

effzee

Member
Without Kanye existing.... Jay just has every other hit making producer in hip hop dying to give him beats and every pop and hip hop artist in the world willing to collaborate with him, and the label power to push stuff however he feels like. That simple fact is what I don't think you guys have ever gotten. You guys are talking about Kanye's contributions to the modern Jay-Z like he helped build a building, except you guys hate that building so it all comes off as desperate.

And then you attribute Jay's success with MCHG to Justin Timberlake alone. It would even make more sense if you were to lay that onus on Samsung. This is a typical thing I see from Nas stans on the coli, yourself included; you never acknowledge the simple truth that the reason Jigga is so big is because he's Jigga. You'll attribute it to Kanye helping him out (the irony of what has been demonstrated here), Biggie, Puffy, Jaz, Dame, whoever, anyone but Jay. The ridiculous, circuitously convoluted nature of these observations is funny when you just consider that you could just refer to Occam's razor: Jay-Z's success is due to him being that good and smart.

Whoa. I agree with everything here.
 

overcast

Member
Speakin of JT, how the heck did Juicy not release The Woods as a single before the album dropped? JT's been blowing up again recently, would've pushed units.

Still think it'll be a single though, but damn it's late.
I agree. He sold well, but that's a JT feature we're talking about. People would eat it up.
PP you a fool for that worst sex story lmao I can't stop laughing

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=42220838
This shit had me rolling in the library today.
 

Complex Shadow

Cudi Lame™
Speakin of JT, how the heck did Juicy not release The Woods as a single before the album dropped? JT's been blowing up again recently, would've pushed units.

Still think it'll be a single though, but damn it's late.

how the hell is "one of those nights" not on the album.
 

Esch

Banned
Whoa. I agree with everything here.

Meh, after a while it gets boring reading bitter internet rap heads post big paragraphs about why Jay is who he is and where he is or whatever. Occasionally they just have to have someone turn their head to be reminded where the trophy case is, and how stacked it is.
 
Without Kanye existing.... Jay just has every other hit making producer in hip hop dying to give him beats and every pop and hip hop artist in the world willing to collaborate with him, and the label power to push stuff however he feels like. That simple fact is what I don't think you guys have ever gotten. You guys are talking about Kanye's contributions to the modern Jay-Z like he helped build a building, except you guys hate that building so it all comes off as desperate.

And then you attribute Jay's success with MCHG to Justin Timberlake alone. It would even make more sense if you were to lay that onus on Samsung. This is a typical thing I see from Nas stans on the coli, yourself included; you never acknowledge the simple truth that the reason Jigga is so big is because he's Jigga. You'll attribute it to Kanye helping him out (the irony of what has been demonstrated here), Biggie, Puffy, Jaz, Dame, whoever, anyone but Jay. The ridiculous, circuitously convoluted nature of these observations is funny when you just consider that you could just refer to Occam's razor: Jay-Z's success is due to him being that good and smart.

Kanye didn't make Jay-Z, I'm not arguing that. But I will definitely argue that Kanye birthed the International Hov we're seeing now. Maybe Jay would have just hung out with Pharrell more if Kanye wasn't around, we'll never know. But Jay has been biting Kanye's career moves for the last decade to great effect. You could argue some of that is due to Kanye being an undeniable trend setter, but a lot of it is due to pure "me too" shit. You noted this yourself last week when Jay announced his tour mere hours after Kanye's.

Here's my problem with Jay-Z, and why I disagree with you. Jay is very smart, and has always been about consolidation. He takes something, makes it more mainstream, and reaps the profits. He borrowed Jaz-O's name and swag and ran with it. Then he hustled to Biggie's side, and carried on the torch. And since 2002 he's been replicating Kanye's career choices, from the fashion to Coldplay. Does anyone think Jay-Z has been an "art fan" for a long period of time? This isn't some Nas conspiracy: Jay has been doing this shit for 20 years.

BP3 is like the crowning achievement of Jay's style. It features every hot artist of the time, and originally even had autotune before Jay decided it sounded bad (at which point he decided to declare autotune dead...). In a sense Jay-Z's career is like a very long French Montana song: lots of dope features and producers, but the guy behind the curtain is just getting by saying the same shit over and over, and is drowned out by his surroundings.

There's nothing wrong with Jay's approach to music, it's the best thing to do if you're going for massive success. But I'm not particularly interested in who sold what. And when I look at Jay-Z's music over the last few years I hear a whole lot of coasting. MCHG is a bad album, as is BP3.
 

Esch

Banned
Kanye didn't make Jay-Z, I'm not arguing that. But I will definitely argue that Kanye birthed the International Hov we're seeing now. Maybe Jay would have just hung out with Pharrell more if Kanye wasn't around, we'll never know. But Jay has been biting Kanye's career moves for the last decade to great effect. You could argue some of that is due to Kanye being an undeniable trend setter, but a lot of it is due to pure "me too" shit. You noted this yourself last week when Jay announced his tour mere hours after Kanye's.
It couldn't be that their album synced up in terms of tour dates and he wanted to compete. I thought it was funny. Jay was 'international' and has been for years now, his music is loved and performed worldwide.
Here's my problem with Jay-Z, and why I disagree with you. Jay is very smart, and has always been about consolidation. He takes something, makes it more mainstream, and reaps the profits. He borrowed Jaz-O's name and swag and ran with it. Then he hustled to Biggie's side, and carried on the torch. And since 2002 he's been replicating Kanye's career choices, from the fashion to Coldplay. Does anyone think Jay-Z has been an "art fan" for a long period of time? This isn't some Nas conspiracy: Jay has been doing this shit for 20 years.
I don't deny that Jay takes ideas, thats why he has been in the game for so long. The matter of the fact is; why doesn't this work for anyone but Jay? It's because he has the skills, the know how, and the sense of choice to make it work by taking different elements from various places. Nobody can replicate what he does. He has crossed over into every lane and made great music for a wide range of people, and that makes people mad for some reason, especially purists.

BP3 is like the crowning achievement of Jay's style. It features every hot artist of the time, and originally even had autotune before Jay decided it sounded bad (at which point he decided to declare autotune dead...). In a sense Jay-Z's career is like a very long French Montana song: lots of dope features and producers, but the guy behind the curtain is just getting by saying the same shit over and over.
Yeah, this is bullshit. Jay has covered a variety of topics. He's mostly a gangster rapper, but this sort of pigeonholing nobody respects outside of the internet and it doesn't stand up to inspection. And it's another double standard i see. Do you criticise Jay for being mostly a gangster rapper, or is he a dickrider who switches up his style. how can you switch up your style and stay the same?

There's nothing wrong with Jay's approach to music, it's the best thing to do if you're going for massive success. But I'm not particularly interested in who sold what. And when I look at Jay-Z's music over the last few years I hear a whole lot of coasting. MCHG is a bad album, as is BP3.
I don't deny that. He is definitely coasting.
 
I don't deny that Jay takes ideas, thats why he has been in the game for so long. The matter of the fact is; why doesn't this work for anyone but Jay? It's because he has the skills, the know how, and the sense of choice to make it work by taking different elements from various places. Nobody can replicate what he does. He has crossed over into every lane and made great music for a wide range of people, and that makes people mad for some reason, especially purists.

Because no one else has the money to bankroll it? Jay-Z is the hip hop Madonna, he can switch things up because no one can compete with him as an "event." Look at how MCHG was promoted, and the magnitude of WTT, or Empire State of Mind dominating during the Yankee's run. He's a business, man. But that doesn't make him a great artist today, just as Madonna isn't a great artist today.


Yeah, this is bullshit. Jay has covered a variety of topics. He's mostly a gangster rapper, but this sort of pigeonholing nobody respects outside of the internet and it doesn't stand up to inspection. And it's another double standard i see. Do you criticise Jay for being mostly a gangster rapper, or is he a dickrider who switches up his style. how can you switch up your style and stay the same?

What is this variety of topics? He's the least introspective, personal rapper out of his legend peers (Biggie, 2pac, Nas, Eminem). You can list some songs if you want, but overall Jay-Z's discography is dominated by petty brag rap, he hasn't really told stories consistently in a long ass time, etc. He's been doing the same thing more than a decade, outside of Kingdom Come (which IMO isn't a bad album). Music wise I'm not sure he's taken a chance since BP1, which had a heavy soul sample sound in contrary to the synths of the south and Swizz Beats. Kingdom Come is considered a "failure" because it was a comeback album that wasn't really a comeback album - not due to its lyrical content.

Jay-Z has been one dimensional for a very long time, while guys like Eminem and Nas have gotten even more introspective. Drake is more introspective than Jay is right now.
 
Can't argue that Jay isn't a great business man. He makes some great moves. His ability to stay relevant is unprecedented and unmatched. BUT he hasn't put out a good album in 6 years and I honestly only mess with a handful of any of his albums.
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Because no one else has the money to bankroll it? Jay-Z is the hip hop Madonna, he can switch things up because no one can compete with him as an "event." Look at how MCHG was promoted, and the magnitude of WTT, or Empire State of Mind dominating during the Yankee's run. He's a business, man. But that doesn't make him a great artist today, just as Madonna isn't a great artist today.




What is this variety of topics? He's the least introspective, personal rapper out of his legend peers (Biggie, 2pac, Nas, Eminem). You can list some songs if you want, but overall Jay-Z's discography is dominated by petty brag rap, he hasn't really told stories consistently in a long ass time, etc. He's been doing the same thing more than a decade, outside of Kingdom Come (which IMO isn't a bad album). Music wise I'm not sure he's taken a chance since BP1, which had a heavy soul sample sound in contrary to the synths of the south and Swizz Beats. Kingdom Come is considered a "failure" because it was a comeback album that wasn't really a comeback album - not due to its lyrical content.

Jay-Z has been one dimensional for a very long time, while guys like Eminem and Nas have gotten even more introspective. Drake is more introspective than Jay is right now.

translation you already decided and proof won't change your mind
 

Esch

Banned
Because no one else has the money to bankroll it? Jay-Z is the hip hop Madonna, he can switch things up because no one can compete with him as an "event." Look at how MCHG was promoted, and the magnitude of WTT, or Empire State of Mind dominating during the Yankee's run. He's a business, man. But that doesn't make him a great artist today, just as Madonna isn't a great artist today.
Did Jay always have the money to bankroll it? Did that dominance extend to when he didn't have shit and was supposedly a sidekick?


What is this variety of topics? He's the least introspective, personal rapper out of his legend peers (Biggie, 2pac, Nas, Eminem). You can list some songs if you want, but overall Jay-Z's discography is dominated by petty brag rap, he hasn't really told stories consistently in a long ass time, etc. He's been doing the same thing more than a decade, outside of Kingdom Come (which IMO isn't a bad album). Music wise I'm not sure he's taken a chance since BP1, which had a heavy soul sample sound in contrary to the synths of the south and Swizz Beats. Kingdom Come is considered a "failure" because it was a comeback album that wasn't really a comeback album - not due to its lyrical content.
You are looking back very favorably on Biggie's discography. The vast, vast majority of it is the same plastic, murder/ brag rap, and I think we all know how much of Pac's discography about balling and killing people. Why is introspection so praised anyway? You hold Jay hostage for not taking risks, but what risks are all of the above artists you praise taking? When did Nas, Pac, Biggie EVER take extensive sonic or lyrical risks, especially after as many albums as Jay has had? Eminem is different, he gets dap for bringing a different level of self-focus to the game. maybe I will give Nas some degree of credit for what he tried to do with Untitled, even if it was mostly a failure. Anyway, I like rap as party music (as do most people); it isn't complex or impressive instrumentally and fails more often than not as some form of social communicator, so I'm not bothered by it. I'm not ashamed of it, I'm mostly in it for a hot beat and a good voice.

Jay-Z has been one dimensional for a very long time, while guys like Eminem and Nas have gotten even more introspective. Drake is more introspective than Jay is right now.
Em and Nas simply have more to be introspective about in life. They failed themselves and their kin. Nas pretty coasted in terms of output and quality for literal years.
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Can't argue that Jay isn't a great business man. He makes some great moves. His ability to stay relevant is unprecedented and unmatched. BUT he hasn't put out a good album in 6 years and I honestly only mess with a handful of any of his albums.

I really like Holy Grail and WTT so now what?
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Now what? You really liked one alright album and one pretty bad album.

Naw both are good albums son... Much more interesting than most of Jay's earlier stuff outside of his classic classic stuff and most of Ye's stuff after his 3rd album
 

Esch

Banned
I'm gonna keep it real, i don't think I ever heard Biggie be as personal about his home life as stuff like Where Have You Been and December 4th. Or at least I can't remember it off the top of my dome. I need to revisit Ready to Die.

if Jay does have a terrible weakness; its his lack of social consciousness. But he's plenty introspective.
 
Naw both are good albums son... Much more interesting than most of Jay's earlier stuff outside of his classic classic stuff and most of Ye's stuff after his 3rd album

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. MBDTF and Yeezus to me are so far and beyond most of Jay's catalogue, but I already know how you feel about those two. I even enjoy 808s if I'm in the right mood.

I will say that I'm probably not the best person to assess "Jay vs. -insert name-" because Jay does very little for me outside of the classic cuts.
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. MBDTF and Yeezus to me are so far and beyond most of Jay's catalogue, but I already know how you feel about those two. I even enjoy 808s if I'm in the right mood.

I will say that I'm probably not the best person to assess "Jay vs. -insert name-" because Jay does very little for me outside of the classic cuts.

I actually don't like Jay-Z very much as well.. But really those last two Ye albums are some of the biggest flops for me.. I hoped for so much more.. esp after WTT and GOOD Music..
 
Nas took multiple risks and experiments on Stillmatic alone. Much of his work has been quite personal, similar to Eminem's - as well as him experimenting with concepts. I haven't really heard Jay play around with concepts or schemes since No Hook.

With respect to bankrolling...Jay's first two albums are on par with many other 90s albums of the time production wise, I'm not talking about those. I'm referring to the Jay-Z of the last decade, who is in a position none of his peers (outside of Eminem I guess) are in.

On Biggie: I agree Biggie could be considered a stretch, but let's not forget that Biggie had a whole lot of introspective shit and even his gangster shit is more ground level and personal than the mafioso shit of Reasonable Doubt/It Was Written/etc. I think introspection is important in terms of great songwriting and being an overall great ARTIST. It's why Nas is a better artist than Kool G Rap, even though G Rap is clearly one of the greatest rappers of all time. I don't listen to hip hop for party music - at least when it comes to GOAT contenders and "serious" artists. That's why I'll place Kendrick above Drake any day of the week. Rapping has always been about flossing, but it's also always been about explaining yourself and your situation. I respect Eminem for putting that microscope on himself, same with Nas or Common or whoever. Jay doesn't do that and has largely been unwilling to.

2pac had a whole lot of introspective, personal shit...come on breh.

translation you already decided and proof won't change your mind

Translation: I have heard nearly every Jay-Z song released, I know he has a handful of "personal" tracks that people like to list.
 

Esch

Banned
Nas took multiple risks and experiments on Stillmatic alone. Much of his work has been quite personal, similar to Eminem's - as well as him experimenting with concepts. I haven't really heard Jay play around with concepts or schemes since No Hook.
You already lost when you set a perimeter of Jay's 10th studio album for this bit.

With respect to bankrolling...Jay's first two albums are on par with many other 90s albums of the time production wise, I'm not talking about those. I'm referring to the Jay-Z of the last decade, who is in a position none of his peers (outside of Eminem I guess) are in.
That's because Jay has no peers besides Eminem still standing. Everyone else died or failed. And Eminem does plenty of crossing over and it like Jay, some of it works better than others.

On Biggie: I agree Biggie could be considered a stretch, but let's not forget that Biggie had a whole lot of introspective shit and even his gangster shit is more ground level and personal than the mafioso shit of Reasonable Doubt/It Was Written/etc. I think introspection is important in terms of great songwriting and being an overall great ARTIST. It's why Nas is a better artist than Kool G Rap, even though G Rap is clearly one of the greatest rappers of all time. I don't listen to hip hop for party music - at least when it comes to GOAT contenders and "serious" artists. That's why I'll place Kendrick above Drake any day of the week. Rapping has always been about flossing, but it's also always been about explaining yourself and your situation. I respect Eminem for putting that microscope on himself, same with Nas or Common or whoever. Jay doesn't do that and has largely been unwilling to..
On biggie's first album, sure. But I'm gonna be honest. I'm a big BIG fan but most of the emotion in his music is fear, paranoia and anger based. It's just very intense, but not exactly running the gamut. Like I said above, Jay is plenty introspective. Jay never put the microscope on himself about where he came from, his home life, how he got here, etc? That's just patently false, and if you're claiming to have heard every Jay song it makes no sense. You just don't like Jay, or maybe his somewhat dishonest take on himself. But every rapper is a liar about themselves, Nas, Em, and Pac as much as Jay.
 
I'm gonna keep it real, i don't think I ever heard Biggie be as personal about his home life as stuff like Where Have You Been and December 4th. Or at least I can't remember it off the top of my dome. I need to revisit Ready to Die.

if Jay does have a terrible weakness; its his lack of social consciousness. But he's plenty introspective.

Looking back on these tracks really shows how much of a missed opportunity Jay-Z Blue was. I was really hoping he'd dig into the thought of becoming a father and reflecting on his own experience with his pops but the most we got was

"Father never taught me how to be a father, treat a mother
I don't wanna have to repeat another leave another"

And then he goes right back into his castle raps. I was expecting more, although it might be a little selfish to ask an artist to put so much of themselves on wax just for me as a fan.
 

Esch

Banned
Looking back on these tracks really shows how much of a missed opportunity Jay-Z Blue was. I was really hoping he'd dig into the thought of becoming a father and reflecting on his own experience with his pops but the most we got was

"Father never taught me how to be a father, treat a mother
I don't wanna have to repeat another leave another"

And then he goes right back into his castle raps. I was expecting more, although it might be a little selfish to ask an artist to put so much of themselves on wax just for me as a fan.

Yep, definitely a missed opportunity. I feel the same way about all the tracks he makes with Beyonce as well; but they have a very private marriage and dont talk about it much at all publically, they even kept their marriage secret as well. I guess you can't blame them for that, even if it is great song material. I wish they would tell the whole story of it all in a song together, but, *shrug*
 
Point still stands about Jay coasting for a decade breh...that's my point. At the end of the day Jay is a great rapper with undeniable classic material, but he is also one of the most one dimensional rappers. And at this rate he's following Nas' late 90s blueprint of stringing together bad albums. Perfect time for Nas to capitalize with great albums but his beat selection is so bad I can't trust him. Just get Q-Tip to exec produce, god dammit.

I knew Jay wouldn't have much to say about Blue. He's said he has an army of handlers who deal with the kid, which tells you everything you need to know.
 

mooooose

Member
esch stanning is boring his points are well articulated and thought out it makes for a decent discussion but it quickly devolves into 10 people making the same point against 1 guy and the 1 guy respond to everyone over and over

just lose yourself in your delusions dude
 
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