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GAF-Hop |OTXI| Five Year Nation
- Thread starter Cheddahz
- Start date
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Yeah I don't know why John doe took that term so personally because it doesn't describe anyone in here as far as I know. It's for that small group of people on the internet who make it their mission (and sometimes make a living) off of being offended by everygoddamnthing and fighting every single battle they can stir up to make themselves feel like they matter and are better than others. That sick need to pat themselves on the back without ever actually doing anything of value to address the real issue. Its just finger pointing and screaming loud enough to drown out any response or logic or real conversation. Kinda the same shit actual bigots do.
Naw it's true lol, to an extent. Dude's were just talking about the word fuckboy being a synonym for faggot.... well stuff like that is also sometimes a low key way of shitting on either gay dudes or women. For example Jigga stopped using the word faggot in the early 00s etc but he's continued to use the word cocksucking as an insult. I'm not saying rap should be 100% squeaky clean but I think we can admit theres some euphemizing going on there.
Yeah this too. As I mentioned earlier, its why I started listening in the first place. Its what makes death certificate such an incredible album for instance. It's that unfiltered emotion that you don't find in any other genre.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I'd say the vast majority of tumblr activism is bullshit. And I'm someone who supports more than a few feminist positions, I don't like homophobia, etc. But fuck the outrage industry.
We have a long way to go for sure. I'm not trying to say that people aren't genuinely offended by some things or that there aren't legitimate homophobic or sexist messages in rap-- just that phony outrage is just as real.
No way, bitch isn't going anywhere. Shit is way too close to gender neutral now and way too prevalent and accepted in society to lose social relevance/relatability. I mean it's definitely an offensive word, but I'm hesitant to classify it as hate fuel.
I kind of agree with this, but there's no perfect way to word it. Context is always important, no matter what the word or the strength of it's power.
Bitch, gender neutral/accepted? This recent feminist movement is making too many waves in real life. I don't even say that shit in real life because whenever women even hear it in a non-insult context they hit you with the
There are some women that have made it a term of endearment like black people have with nigga but that shit is still offensive and generally unnecessary.
Yea as others have said it's down to intent, context, how often or dependably a rapper relies on misogyny or homophobia as a theme. like in my original example, only reason I brought it up was because it was so out of place. Forget which song it was but chuuwee's rapping about getting high and driving around with friends or something and then just starts callin people fag. so the malice feels out of place and kinda below him. Though, bringing up euphemistic replacements is a good point: honestly I probably wouldn't have noticed had he said "fuckboy" instead there, which is bad on my part.
My thing with tumblr activists is most aren't really interested in conversation/explanation. they just want to find problematic shit, condemn it within their tight circles and all clap each other on the backs. A lot of their concerns aren't unreasonable, but their method of confronting them is off
August 17 if Travis can stick to a release date for the first time in his life
Rastafarian42
Member
So is this a mixtape or a Ep ?
If tumblr existed in the 60s I bet civil rights types would have been all over that shit. The uncanny aptitude these bloggers have for rustling jimmies speaks to how wide their reach has become.
Activism in 2014 is definitely going to look different than it did decades ago because we have the internet now. I think it's rather presumptuous to say they don't care enough to do anything about these issues in real life. The kinds of people who rail against these sorts of injustices online tend to do so because they're the victims. They rarely have the institutional support they'd need to exact the change they call for.
However, this was true in the past also. Maybe that's what made their actions all the more heroic, but I think society has changed enough to where the internet is now the place you go when you're trying to change people's minds.
Activism in 2014 is definitely going to look different than it did decades ago because we have the internet now. I think it's rather presumptuous to say they don't care enough to do anything about these issues in real life. The kinds of people who rail against these sorts of injustices online tend to do so because they're the victims. They rarely have the institutional support they'd need to exact the change they call for.
However, this was true in the past also. Maybe that's what made their actions all the more heroic, but I think society has changed enough to where the internet is now the place you go when you're trying to change people's minds.
I still think it's a thousand times more acceptable than faggot or cunt in joking contexts, and on top of that I see women using it to describe other women and men all the time. There's no debate that it has gendered roots and is still very closely tied to that, but I definitely feel that it's not in any danger of going away. Hoes, etc. are much closer to that line and I don't feel like they're going away either so long as artists can argue that it's an element of the lifestyle they come from, which will be forever.Bitch, gender neutral/accepted? This recent feminist movement is making too many waves in real life. I don't even say that shit in real life because whenever women even hear it in a non-insult context they hit you with theand hey, rightfully so.
There are some women that have made it a term of endearment like black people have with nigga but that shit is still offensive and generally unnecessary.
If you're saying anything that is offensive is unnecessary, then you may as well just remove every insult (or attempt at discrediting another individual) from hip-hop. Which I don't agree with either, because competitiveness is a defining feature of hip-hop.
some good discussion going on in here right now.
as siddx said, one of the reasons I love this genre so much is that it's completely unfiltered. rappers WILL tell you how they feel and don't give a fuck if you're offended.
do I get bothered by the misogyny, homophobia and murder fantasy shit? of course I do. it's why I'm glad hip hop has expanded into several different sub-genres. there's literally something for just about everyone, and you can't say that about some genres of music. it's also why I'm so glad Kendrick has become mainstream without changing his style. Section.80 was such a great breath of fresh air and was about women and their struggles. and we all know just how socially conscious GKMC was.
anyways, I'm glad we're having this discussion without blatant mud-slinging. it's absolutely a conversation worth having.
as siddx said, one of the reasons I love this genre so much is that it's completely unfiltered. rappers WILL tell you how they feel and don't give a fuck if you're offended.
do I get bothered by the misogyny, homophobia and murder fantasy shit? of course I do. it's why I'm glad hip hop has expanded into several different sub-genres. there's literally something for just about everyone, and you can't say that about some genres of music. it's also why I'm so glad Kendrick has become mainstream without changing his style. Section.80 was such a great breath of fresh air and was about women and their struggles. and we all know just how socially conscious GKMC was.
anyways, I'm glad we're having this discussion without blatant mud-slinging. it's absolutely a conversation worth having.
I mean unnecessary in real life, IMO you can say whatever you want on record and it's fine because hey, that's your creative project. As far as things like how acceptable something is or isn't... I can't quantify that personally.
The Artful Dodger
Member
Yeah, I find it weird the same people that will scream against censorship and say the whole "you can't censor art!" will be equally outraged if something is said or words are used that they dislike.
Real life you can slam a person for saying stuff you disagree with but some folks are ready to be outraged at the drop of a hat.
I'm not condoning words, I dislike them being used at times, but still listen to music that says them (obviously, I mean this is Hip-Hop), but idk...just seems ridiculous to immediately start a twitter campaign everytime somebody says something you don't like.
Rastafarian42
Member
This post sums up my feelings on Hip-Hop as a whole.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
I really don't see the hypocrisy in not liking misogyny or homophobia in a songs about crime fantasies.
And no it's not a slippery slope issue where if it were to change, every rapper would be watered down to Will Smith clones.
And no the use of the n-word is not the same as misogynistic or homophobic language for the obvious reason.
And yes it's art but art is always some sort of reflection of society at large which is evident in fewer and fewer instances of homophobic slurs.
And no it's not a slippery slope issue where if it were to change, every rapper would be watered down to Will Smith clones.
And no the use of the n-word is not the same as misogynistic or homophobic language for the obvious reason.
And yes it's art but art is always some sort of reflection of society at large which is evident in fewer and fewer instances of homophobic slurs.
I think it's still possible to be competitive and insult your opponents without disparaging women or gays. It'll be a bit more difficult and require some creativity, but these people are artists. I believe they can find a way if they're held to a higher standard.
I don't really think Kendrick is much of a feminist really. For every Keisha's Song or Sing About Me, there's
"I call a bitch a bitch. a hoe a hoe, a woman a woman and I never did nothing but the break the ground on top of the asphalt"
"Too many niggas and not enough hoes, and some of you niggas actin like hoes"
And let's not forget one of his first hit singles was called "Bitch Don't Kill My Vibe"
The more "conscious" rappers tend to have the same views about women as the rest of the industry. They're just less honest about it.
The reason I'm okay with listening hip hop despite it's more negative themes is because that stuff exists no matter where you look. I can't think of a single creative person who hasn't said something offensive at some point in their career. Even if you do manage to find a person like that in the present there's always the chance that at some point in the future, we'll look back at them with shame for something we're all okay with now. Just accept that artists are all flawed human beings, but it's still good to challenge them every once in a while to be a progressive voice in their chosen medium, or at the very least to not bring us backward.
I don't really think Kendrick is much of a feminist really. For every Keisha's Song or Sing About Me, there's
"I call a bitch a bitch. a hoe a hoe, a woman a woman and I never did nothing but the break the ground on top of the asphalt"
"Too many niggas and not enough hoes, and some of you niggas actin like hoes"
And let's not forget one of his first hit singles was called "Bitch Don't Kill My Vibe"
The more "conscious" rappers tend to have the same views about women as the rest of the industry. They're just less honest about it.
The reason I'm okay with listening hip hop despite it's more negative themes is because that stuff exists no matter where you look. I can't think of a single creative person who hasn't said something offensive at some point in their career. Even if you do manage to find a person like that in the present there's always the chance that at some point in the future, we'll look back at them with shame for something we're all okay with now. Just accept that artists are all flawed human beings, but it's still good to challenge them every once in a while to be a progressive voice in their chosen medium, or at the very least to not bring us backward.
PhoenixDark
Banned
To be fair, Bitch Don't Kill My Vibe isn't about women.
maybe I just looked into these two lines too much (it is Kendrick for god's sake) but I took them as shots at mainstream hip-hop more than something literal.
Gonna generally cosign the whole faux outrage mentality on the internet, it's fucking infuriating and actually destructive to discussion. I'm a cynic by nature, but really it does annoy me when people try to make everything into a movement instead of a conversation and try to make everything PC without addressing what the issue really is. I think the even bigger issue for that is how we all try to make things black and white.
With the speed that information travels in 2014, we try to make things simpler to process and filter all of it. How many times have you seen an article on some celebrity only to make your judgment as soon as you read the headlines, fuck that guy, I remember he did _____. It's hard to have a discussion about the gray space these social issues have I feel. People or parts of our culture are either labelled sexist or racist and usually one incident is enough to justify it based on circumstance. Culture and biases are fluid, and I've read enough racial prejudice research to know racial biases exist on a spectrum. If you try to bring this up in some threads here, people attack you for being a sympathizer or something, it's disappointing.
I feel like the insults we've been discussing here inhabit this same space. Obviously there is still an ongoing debate over the acceptance of the n word in every context, but from my personal experience I feel that bitch has lost a lot of it's gender qualities. It used to surprise me (a bit) seeing women use it, but I began to see it as a new implementation of the word, and in a form that strips it of association with an entire gender. And I think as long as these permutations exist, you won't see anything powerful enough to remove these words from those contexts. And even if you do succeed, another word that explains these exact same sentiments or describes these parts of nature will replace them.
With the speed that information travels in 2014, we try to make things simpler to process and filter all of it. How many times have you seen an article on some celebrity only to make your judgment as soon as you read the headlines, fuck that guy, I remember he did _____. It's hard to have a discussion about the gray space these social issues have I feel. People or parts of our culture are either labelled sexist or racist and usually one incident is enough to justify it based on circumstance. Culture and biases are fluid, and I've read enough racial prejudice research to know racial biases exist on a spectrum. If you try to bring this up in some threads here, people attack you for being a sympathizer or something, it's disappointing.
I feel like the insults we've been discussing here inhabit this same space. Obviously there is still an ongoing debate over the acceptance of the n word in every context, but from my personal experience I feel that bitch has lost a lot of it's gender qualities. It used to surprise me (a bit) seeing women use it, but I began to see it as a new implementation of the word, and in a form that strips it of association with an entire gender. And I think as long as these permutations exist, you won't see anything powerful enough to remove these words from those contexts. And even if you do succeed, another word that explains these exact same sentiments or describes these parts of nature will replace them.
If you're gonna use insults period, I don't think discriminating between what's more acceptable to attack than what is less acceptable to attack helps much. Not long before different communities get outraged over attacking physical traits, etc.
I've never liked when rappers do this; they justify their use of slurs by differentiating women from the 'good' and the 'bad' ones based on what they do with their bodies or money. Jay-Z did this on Bitches and Sisters, Nas on Black Girl Lost, etc. It's worse than just using slurs for effect or for shit talking purposes tbh.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Agreed on that front. Comes off as lame justification instead of empowerment, like they think they found a loophole to demean their exes without shitting on their sisters/daughters/mothers.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Right now YG has a song single that basically is the N-Word in a loop. Where's the controversy?
This is true. That song is a good example of where intent ought to be taken into account rather than be outraged by the use of a word.
This relates to Enzo's point above. He's not saying the word bitch the way it's traditionally used, but I can understand if someone decides not to listen to his music because of it. I'm not a woman so I'm not really in the position to tell them what they're allowed to be upset by. It's cool if they'd like to reclaim it, but whether or not men can or should play a role in that is a question I don't have the answer to.
The second one is definitely a shot at mainstream hip-hop, but he's attacking his peers by comparing them to women. Implying that feminine qualities are something to be shunned.
im offended.
bringing races together is a beautiful thing brah
YG is black, Young Jeezy is black, Rich Homie Quan is black.
White people dictating how black people can use the n-word is what would actually be offensive.
No time for controversy when everytime that song comes on:
something like this should always happen to Rosenberg.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Its all offensive, its offensive entertainment. Now if fans want to boycott and artist that is their right too, buT rap is full of foul language..... It should be offensive
The Artful Dodger
Member
Let's describe a certain female A female with a disease of character and attitude If you will a snob however in the view of NWA...
This song cracks me up everytime though
MorisUkunRasik
Member
I definitely don't think rap SHOULD be offensive. It can be, but 'offensive' is pretty broad. The use of fuck or shit is a whole lot different than slurs. And the use of the Nword by black men or fag by the gay community is a whole different thing than someone like yellawolf using an ethnic slur or any straight rapper using homophobic slurs.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Yeah but I can't bring myself to feel its not all just relative when the consumer of rap usually don't fit into those demographics and will sing along to the lyrics with no shame. Rap is offensive let's leave it at that, why start making qualifiers as consumers? Like I said it depends on the fans and if they will boycott or not and the fear of loss money will make rappers choose what they will be willing to say.
However saying that certain words are too offensive for rappers to use is missing the whole point of why rappers use those words. TheN word is prevalent in rap now but when NWA came on the scene they offended everybody but the consumers who kept them paid.
CountBlack
Member
PhoenixDark
Banned
Few things rustle my jimmies like white people lecturing black people on their use of the n-word. Personally I don't use the word, outside of a few ironic times with my brothers (my actual brothers) when we're chilling at home or online. I don't see anyone lecturing Polish people for using "pollack" as a term of endearment or the various other Europeans who do similar things.
Ain't nobody got time for that
The Artful Dodger
Member
When that debate would come up in my English Lit classes, I would always preface with "As the resident minority in this class..." cause most of the time I was the only non-white in the class (I'm Mexican), one time my teacher was black and just about died when I said that in response to a super uptight person that brought it up...
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
Hip hop is raw and primal and aggressive...but so is like, a Cormac McCarthy book and he doesn't seem to lean on homophobia or sexism to get it done. There is a big difference between being those things--including being offensive and provacative--and being juvenille and hateful. Homophobia and sexism in rap is juvenile and hateful 99% of the time.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Yeah well every time Quentin Tarantino uses the N word in one of his movies its juvenile and hateful. However he gets a pass because he is considered an artist who deals with offensive art.
Discotheque
Banned
I feel like Tarantino loves the word at this point. Remember that pulp fiction scene? Dudes been gratuitous with it since jump
Rastafarian42
Member
Yeah Spike Lee was on point regarding Tarantino and his infatuation with the N word.
that line's not even a hit on women though. i mean i guess you could take it like that but that isn't where he was going. whatever.
feminists bloggers had a field day w/ Yeezus. not to say that it was unearned but it's like, are we deciding to take rap lyrics serious today? maybe cause it's Yeezy folks act like he's supposed to be different.
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
The intent behind Tarantino's use of nigga/nigger is entirely different. It is a stylistic decision that serves a purpose beyond communicating disdain. You can agree or disagree with that decision, but it is at the very least a conscious artistic decision.
Rappers who say faggot use the word because they think being gay is something bad. Rappers compare dudes to hoes because being a woman is something bad. There's nothing else behind it. No meaning or purpose. That is their ordinary, hateful language and worldview missing the filter of a decent team and management (in 2014 at least).
Very different things. Intent and context matter for language. I would say his foot fetish is about a billion times more troubling and actively bothers me.
Rappers who say faggot use the word because they think being gay is something bad. Rappers compare dudes to hoes because being a woman is something bad. There's nothing else behind it. No meaning or purpose. That is their ordinary, hateful language and worldview missing the filter of a decent team and management (in 2014 at least).
Very different things. Intent and context matter for language. I would say his foot fetish is about a billion times more troubling and actively bothers me.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Plenty of people boycotted Em for his homophobic content in the early 2000s and late 90s but society at large wasn't really on board and now rappers almost never go there cause consumers aren't into hearing it anymore.
If art reflects society, as society evolves what artists themselves think is acceptable will too.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Juvenile sure, but how is it hateful? Given the type of characters his films follow - hit men, criminals, slave owners, Nazis, etc - is it a stretch for them to say ignorant stuff about various races, specifically blacks and Hispanics? Ultimately Tarantino argues that's how people talk, and I'm apt to believe him. Plenty of white people say ignorant shit about black and Hispanic people while behind closed doors. Likewise, as a black person I can confirm that black people say ignorant shit about various things behind closed doors too.
The only time I've felt some type of way about Tarrantino dialogue was during the Sicilian/Moor scene in True Romance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yon2GyoiM
While I understand the point and it's believable for the character to make it...it still felt excessive and somewhat divorced from the rest of the film. Like something Tarantino overheard a friend drunkenly argue at some Hollywood party and decided to put in his script.
Tbh feminists are more simply likely to listen to Kanye because his music is more popular and sonically female friendly than say, a Gnauze or Juvenile or DMX. So they're more likely to comment.
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