• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

GAF Indie Game Development Thread 2: High Res Work for Low Res Pay

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jobbs

Banned
Reworked the bug chunking gibs because they looked unnatural.

http://www.gfycat.com/WholeSleepyFruitfly

Alright, I'm uploading a clip right now. Fraps killed the framerate, and the game's not using delta timing, so there's a bit of slowdown. And I have to leave for a dinner party in five minutes. This'll be the link, but YT says the upload is going to take another half an hour. http://youtu.be/BC0cEWYX_tg *fingers crossed*

Okay, I was wrong, I can't tell. XD I'm imagining it's kind of a noise effect?
 

Jobbs

Banned
Sad to hear Iwata is dead. Guy was a brilliant programmer.

Nintendo (NES and SNES, N64 came out when I was in my early teens but it wasn't really the "magic period" for me.. NES/SNES were) was such a huge, important, integral part of my childhood. Almost all of my positive childhood memories involve NES or SNES in some way.

I didn't have a perfect childhood, but Nintendo was always there!
 

charsace

Member
Nintendo (NES and SNES, N64 came out when I was in my early teens but it wasn't really the "magic period" for me.. NES/SNES were) was such a huge, important, integral part of my childhood. Almost all of my positive childhood memories involve NES or SNES in some way.

I didn't have a perfect childhood, but Nintendo was always there!

We probably around the same age. So sad. Iwata is one reason melee was so good for the gamecube.
 

Ventron

Member
Sad to hear Iwata is dead. Guy was a brilliant programmer.

He was. Hearing about how he almost single-handedly saved multiple projects was so inspiring, and showed how much more we can learn as programmers. That he was such a light-hearted and friendly gamer only made it better.

On topic: Are there any resources to show what makes a good game trailer? I'm planning on spending time watching as many good trailers as possible (and bad, but Jim Sterling has done a lot of the work there) to see what I can put on my eventual Greenlight page.
 

Jobbs

Banned
He was. Hearing about how he almost single-handedly saved multiple projects was so inspiring, and showed how much more we can learn as programmers. That he was such a light-hearted and friendly gamer only made it better.

On topic: Are there any resources to show what makes a good game trailer? I'm planning on spending time watching as many good trailers as possible (and bad, but Jim Sterling has done a lot of the work there) to see what I can put on my eventual Greenlight page.

Identify the major thing(s) you want your game to communicate, and edit the video so each section of the trailer focuses on one of those things. And put them in a logical order so it feels like one progresses from the other. I applied this concept to my trailer, which uses no words and explains everything my game is about, and it starts by "talking" about exploration and mystery, and then "talking" about action and conflict.

Also I'd recommend minimal exposition or narration and focus on showing the game.
 
It is a very sad day to hear about Iwata passing away...

I don't feel like doing any game programming either, but instead I am thinking to honor him and keep working, just need to think about a nice way to do it, maybe name a planet on his name or something like that
 
Okay, I was wrong, I can't tell. XD I'm imagining it's kind of a noise effect?

Yeah, it's just Perlin noise. I just watched the video, wow! YouTube really fucked it up. That might be something to consider if we want a good streaming audience. It also bloats the screenshot size a considerable amount.

Anyway, I took two frame grabs from the raw video from shortly before and after the static is cleared. I need to find a better image host going forward that doesn't convert large PNGs to JPGs, but this will do for now

before: http://i.imgur.com/RqKBkoJ.jpg
after: http://i.imgur.com/D5J8aIf.jpg

------
Is there a reason why the gibs from the monster fade away rather than stay there? I've never liked how that looks in games, preferring debris to be cleared when you're not looking and/or far away if possible.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Yeah, it's just Perlin noise. I just watched the video, wow! YouTube really fucked it up. That might be something to consider if we want a good streaming audience. It also bloats the screenshot size a considerable amount.

Anyway, I took two frame grabs from the raw video from shortly before and after the static is cleared. I need to find a better image host going forward that doesn't convert large PNGs to JPGs, but this will do for now

before: http://i.imgur.com/RqKBkoJ.jpg
after: http://i.imgur.com/D5J8aIf.jpg

------
Is there a reason why the gibs from the monster fade away rather than stay there? I've never liked how that looks in games, preferring debris to be cleared when you're not looking and/or far away if possible.

One problem with noise is that it looks terrible in stills, but works in motion. I face this issue myself as I use varying levels of noise in my game. It's probably a good application how you have it.

Regarding the gibs, honestly, no particular reason. I like to clean things up and keep loose ends tied as I go, but, honestly, they really don't have to go. If you insist, I'll consider leaving them there.
 
One problem with noise is that it looks terrible in stills, but works in motion. I face this issue myself as I use varying levels of noise in my game. It's probably a good application how you have it.

Regarding the gibs, honestly, no particular reason. I like to clean things up and keep loose ends tied as I go, but, honestly, they really don't have to go. If you insist, I'll consider leaving them there.

Yeah, it definitely looks better in motion, but not with lots of compression. We may look into other things. There's also a faint shadow ripple effect going on, so increasing that could work instead.


I don't want to say "do this, it's better design," because I think you're a great designer. I was just curious what your reasoning was. Is it a big ask to clear the gibs when the player walks out the door?
 

Jobbs

Banned
Yeah, it definitely looks better in motion, but not with lots of compression. We may look into other things. There's also a faint shadow ripple effect going on, so increasing that could work instead.

Three words. Chromatic Aberration.

I don't want to say "do this, it's better design," because I think you're a great designer. I was just curious what your reasoning was. Is it a big ask to clear the gibs when the player walks out the door?

It's not a big ask. I habitually despawn particle type objects shortly after they serve their purpose, and I've sort of approached gibs in a similar way without ever really thinking much about it. I may change it so they stick around until you leave the room. And thank you for your sneaky compliment, I am not sure yet that I deserve it, but thanks. :)

Yeah, been real rough trying to work with the sad news regarding Iwata.

I've definitely been feeling a bit solemn this evening.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Yeah, it's just Perlin noise. I just watched the video, wow! YouTube really fucked it up. That might be something to consider if we want a good streaming audience. It also bloats the screenshot size a considerable amount.
I think this is a good point that might be non-obvious, so you might consider doing some research into it. As far as I'm aware, stuff like static / noise is one of the single most difficult things for H.264 to encode, so one could indeed produce a game that looks awful in streams / trailers / YouTube by accident.
 
Three words. Chromatic Aberration.

That actually looks pretty bad with this art style. Or maybe I didn't do it right. Anyway, I jumped up the shadows like I said I would, and it's pretty cool. It needs some fine tuning, but I think it's probably the better option (especially as far as video codecs are concerned).

http://fat.gfycat.com/BlondDevotedBighorn.webm

It's not a big ask. I habitually despawn particle type objects shortly after they serve their purpose, and I've sort of approached gibs in a similar way without ever really thinking much about it. I may change it so they stick around until you leave the room. And thank you for your sneaky compliment, I am not sure yet that I deserve it, but thanks. :)

Of course! :)

Yeah, the way we've done it, there's a flag in the debris system per type on whether it'll despawn or just sit there. Usually we try to keep everything on screen, but a few are too small to make much of a difference lying around, and some come from respawning enemies/obstacles and so could tank performance if some stupid player just sits there and spawns more and more.

I think this is a good point that might be non-obvious, so you might consider doing some research into it. As far as I'm aware, stuff like static / noise is one of the single most difficult things for H.264 to encode, so one could indeed produce a game that looks awful in streams / trailers / YouTube by accident.

Rain, too, at least in certain implementations. For example, the penultimate level in Shovel Knight looks terrible on video. It makes sense if you understand the codec, but isn't something you think about. Luckily that's only one stage for them.
hqdefault.jpg
 

Jobbs

Banned
I like the shadowy clouds a lot. That's a good effect.

I think us as people making games, a lot of times we are over anal about cleaning up a particle object as quickly as possible or what have you -- Modern computers and even game consoles have a lot of power, it's not going to matter in most cases (depending on specifics, of course).

Unrelated, but I've been taking direct captures of the game in 1080p to show off its 1080pness to doubters.


More:

http://www.ghostsonggame.com/miscd/1080p-2.png
http://www.ghostsonggame.com/miscd/1080p-4.png
http://www.ghostsonggame.com/miscd/1080p-5.png
http://www.ghostsonggame.com/miscd/1080p-6.png
http://www.ghostsonggame.com/miscd/1080p-7.png
 
I feel like shit, but the show must go on, im sure thats what Iwata would want. For players to continue playing and devs continuing making other wonderful games and experiences. Im sure he would be happy knowing that.

Maybe start with having to push back and defend and auto defend as a powerup?

More that an autodefend, that could be a powerup, is more about using B to defend for both back and front, OR B only for front, and B+back to defend for the back attacks.
 

_machine

Member
Yeah not the best of days, especially with half of our crew sick and the sad news this morning. Multiplayer and performance issues aren't that much closer to being solved yet either, but not much else to do but to soldier on and solve that shit.
 
JUMP GUY 1000 - here he is finished and being tested in my enemy playroom:
http://gfycat.com/ImaginativeEllipticalAztecant

He does some smaller hops when further away and once he enters kill range he calculates the distance for his jump to land on you. He wound up being pretty cool. Can be activated as you approach or leave him. Will be hidden inside of levels where you least expect, blending in with other things in the environment.

fuck all tutorials.. give the minimum info necessary so the player understands how to play, but a lot of explanation and linearity is boring IMO.

Most people playing games aren't dumb, they can figure things out if you give them just enough.
Maybe I should say anyone who would be interested in playing the kind of games I like and would make. Dark Souls explains very little and has been a successful franchise.
Souls series is exceedingly simple to grasp with very limited everything. It's just difficult to master what it does show you - and those who want to go deeper have that option - it's not a requirement. It's not exactly the best candidate for throwing caution to the wind - there are secrets to be found but that can be said of any game.

I would advise against a complete blindfold, TBH. No hand holding can be done without being exceedingly obtuse. If you want to emulate the souls series - offer enough up front to make people think and those that want to go deeper can choose to of their own volition. That is what the souls series offers, it caters fairly well to both camps - those who wish to min/max every inch of the game and those who just want to play to smack things with two-handers and kill bosses without going crazy. There's a lot to miss in the souls games and having that as an option is always best.

Yeah, this is one of the possible designs I plan to develop further after Honey.

Right now I still haven't made up my mind, so it's pretty open: I'm thinking either a non-violent exploration based 2D platformer, the one pictured there (basically a reverse Metroid 2 design, starting at the bottom of a pit you need to climb out of, so heavy on the atmosphere), or a melee-based action/exploration 2D platformer because ANIMATIONS (and there'd totally be an AXE and a CASTLE just because), or a sci-fi adventure game swinging between RPG and point and click mechanics, though the battle system would be a dialog system (that's actually the most likely candidate right now, but I'm wavering at the idea of jumping into another project with so much dialog, now, so maybe I'll leave it for later)... or maybe a sort of sequel to Honey, as I'm figuring out what I think could be a cool design for one as I go along the current one. I won't say much more, except that it wouldn't be *quite* the same, and I think it could be quite fun, especially if people end up liking Honey as a character :-D
I dig these ideas. I'd be interested in hearing more, for sure.

Alright, I'm uploading a clip right now. Fraps killed the framerate, and the game's not using delta timing, so there's a bit of slowdown. And I have to leave for a dinner party in five minutes. This'll be the link, but YT says the upload is going to take another half an hour. http://youtu.be/BC0cEWYX_tg *fingers crossed*
Use Bandicam (paid) or Open Broadcaster (https://obsproject.com/ - free) instead of Fraps. Bandi has a zillion options and is barely a hit to anything whereas I've had nothing but issues with Fraps. OBS is great for recording, screencasting, streaming, etc. Can do a whole lot.
 
It took me quite a while and in the end I think it will need some redrawn parts but I'm happy with the result.

vFiNHcs.gif

It's looking good! Nicely done.



JUMP GUY 1000 - here he is finished and being tested in my enemy playroom:
http://gfycat.com/ImaginativeEllipticalAztecant

He does some smaller hops when further away and once he enters kill range he calculates the distance for his jump to land on you. He wound up being pretty cool. Can be activated as you approach or leave him. Will be hidden inside of levels where you least expect, blending in with other things in the environment.

I like everything about this. Is there any danger of the two (or more) jumpers getting locked to the same pattern? Or is the timing/velocity random enough that they'll break apart?


Use Bandicam (paid) or Open Broadcaster (https://obsproject.com/ - free) instead of Fraps. Bandi has a zillion options and is barely a hit to anything whereas I've had nothing but issues with Fraps. OBS is great for recording, screencasting, streaming, etc. Can do a whole lot.

I didn't realize OBS had a saving option, but that makes sense. I think my harddrive is the bottleneck with Fraps, since it just does a frame dump of the screen every chance it gets, but my laptop's not exactly top of the line (anymore). I'll give those two a try! :)
 
I like everything about this. Is there any danger of the two (or more) jumpers getting locked to the same pattern? Or is the timing/velocity random enough that they'll break apart?

Thank you! Nothing to change timing yet. I will have to see how many I want to throw in areas together. I could just have them check each other on collision then roll a random to see who takes a quick pause. The timing of the jumps change depending on the jump height and distance. When in closer proximity (about 50% of the screen from the center) they jump higher and farther so the timings change based on that CQC distance.

I didn't realize OBS had a saving option, but that makes sense. I think my harddrive is the bottleneck with Fraps, since it just does a frame dump of the screen every chance it gets, but my laptop's not exactly top of the line (anymore). I'll give those two a try! :)
Bandi has a free test version like they all do. They have several setups for popular video editors and codecs and the ability to create your own templates so you can quick select the type of recording and quality you are looking for. Good stuff.

OBS is great, to boot. I still prefer Bandi for gameplay recording but like OBS for streaming and screencasting.
 
Concerning tutorials and explaining mechanics, if I'm going to do that at all, I'd rather do so outside of the main game, in its own tutorial section. Some old PC games had their own dedicated tutorial levels that could be accessed via the main menu, Half Life and Deus Ex's were especially memorable and fully justified in-context in a reasonable manner.
 
Concerning tutorials and explaining mechanics, if I'm going to do that at all, I'd rather do so outside of the main game, in its own tutorial section. Some old PC games had their own dedicated tutorial levels that could be accessed via the main menu, Half Life and Deus Ex's were especially memorable and fully justified in-context in a reasonable manner.

first ask them when they click new game if they want to go through the tutorials or nah. (y) or just say you can go back to the menu and watch/read or whatever for basic. that way they don't have to relive it over again. (y)

--

I also reinstalled unity. but i should wait until W10 is out. i'm sure it'll make me fresh install lol.
i'll probably dabble around again. i gotta get at least something done from my bucket list.
 
Thanks I got a little bit of shunned because it's too fast paced for some people, and the spear magically switching between front/back also wasn't well accepted, so I'lll keep this for the sword maybe, and make a new stance for the lance :)

Attack speeds in games are such a crucial game play element that I figured whatever speed you have it that is by design.

The spear transferring from the back to the front is something else I noticed, but I just figured that some of the transition gets lost in the snappiness of the animation.

That said, if your animation must be snappy, you can alleviate most of it by putting in a lot of follow-through animation, especially with a secondary movement of dangling bits.
 

Five

Banned
There's going to be a short tutorial stage in Nether Mind because that's what I'd want to be there if I was playing the game afresh.

Teaching the player how to play is good game design. You don't have to be on the nose and call it a tutorial level, especially where that breaks narrative immersion. But better a bit of fourth-wall breaking at the beginning of an adventure than quitting the adventure early because not learning the parry makes the enemies too overpowered.

Souls games are actually pretty good at teaching the player what to do as far as core elements go. Small text prompts to give you the controls, slow enemies to practice the parry on, and a large boss that you'll probably die to to understand the cycle of death in the game. Not to mention lots of little, incidental environment designs that direct your eyes and motion in just the right way.

It's easy to feel like the game just let you figure it out, but it didn't actually. It's just more subtle about its teaching than a lot of games. And, in fact, the parts that aren't explained (all the stats, esp. in Demons Souls with the weird icons) are pretty frustrating to novices.


Thanks I got a little bit of shunned because it's too fast paced for some people, and the spear magically switching between front/back also wasn't well accepted, so I'lll keep this for the sword maybe, and make a new stance for the lance :)

If you're looking for more things to fix, there's a bit of slipping on the back foot. That's hard to avoid without IK, but I think you can do better than that. Tiny details go a long way to sell a good animation.
 
If any of you feel like having a go at Titan and JUMP GUY 1000 i have uploaded the playroom to my server:

http://alphadev.absinthegames.com/unannounced - windoze only

You will need a login/pw which can be seen when quoting this post at the very bottom.

There's 2 JUMP GUY 1000s in the middle and to the right there is a titan and to the far left there are 2 titans, one is a delayed and offset launch. JUMP GUY isn't really setup to navigate boxes. I want to put him everywhere he needs to be in game before deciding how he should navigate obstacles.

There are 2 files - one for Dualshock 4 native and the other for 360/XOne native controllers - I only did this since I don't have a proper menu to choose between the two.

Now that I think about it I could have just temporarily mapped it to a key.

login/pw below:
 
Bandi has a free test version like they all do. They have several setups for popular video editors and codecs and the ability to create your own templates so you can quick select the type of recording and quality you are looking for. Good stuff.

OBS is great, to boot. I still prefer Bandi for gameplay recording but like OBS for streaming and screencasting.

So Bandicam is giving me about the same performance as Fraps if I record at 60fps (even using the Intel h.264 encoder). But Fraps has a frame limiter if I record at a lower hertz and Bandicam does not, so that's a lot better (meaning gameplay isn't going to slow down to half speed if I settle for a 30fps recording, which is what Fraps did). I made another test video: https://youtu.be/u2y7id8z_yE

edit:

If any of you feel like having a go at Titan and JUMP GUY 1000 i have uploaded the playroom to my server:

http://alphadev.absinthegames.com/unannounced - windoze only

Overall, it feels pretty slick, but the jumpguy hangs on some of the environment. Specifically, he can jump against one of the lower blocks ad nauseam. He also has no idea what to do if he's directly above the player (separated by a block), and just jumps in place.

There's also something on the right side of the stage that's pushing stuff leftward. Not sure why. Trying to stand on the floating platform on the right adds leftward velocity to the player, and any bits that fall in that general area get a mysterious lift.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Hey everyone! So I'm making a "Dynamic Grand Strategy" game; think Europa Universalis 4 except with a lot more procedural generation, and with tactical combat inspired by Advance Wars.

You can read a bit about it here: www.victorsandvanquished.com

Anyways, I have a problem. I'm not intending my game to be super-attractive; in fact, it'll be downright ugly in many cases. I'm hoping that the depth and quality of gameplay will make up for that, like it did with, say, Rimworld.

Given that, and my tiny art budget, I'm reasonably satisfied with how my strategic gameplay graphics are progressing. However, I'm not happy with my tactical battle graphics. I'm very torn on what art style to go with, how to lay out the screen, and how to spice things up in general. I was hoping to get suggestions from you!

Here's an example of the strategic map graphics (the ones I'm reasonably happy with--but feel free to tell me if they're not acceptable):
XwGXIqX.jpg


Now, the graphics I have a problem with (used in combat...also note that the backgrounds are placeholders, but the final versions will probably be similar):
2wACFWQ.png

IMLxF13.png


Here are closeups of some sprites. I think they look fine in isolation, but they're not cohesive with the rest of the game:
fHWAw55.gif

whV8qjn.gif


Or maybe I'm just using them wrong...in combat, they're clustered together (in units) and are pretty small.

I'd greatly appreciate any feedback and suggestions! And be as cruel and blunt as necessary!
 
So Bandicam is giving me about the same performance as Fraps if I record at 60fps (even using the Intel h.264 encoder). But Fraps has a frame limiter if I record at a lower hertz and Bandicam does not, so that's a lot better (meaning gameplay isn't going to slow down to half speed if I settle for a 30fps recording, which is what Fraps did). I made another test video: https://youtu.be/u2y7id8z_yE
I tried :( Bandi has much better performance for me over Fraps so I roll with Bandi. Video looks good to me, for YT.

Overall, it feels pretty slick, but the jumpguy hangs on some of the environment. Specifically, he can jump against one of the lower blocks ad nauseam. He also has no idea what to do if he's directly above the player (separated by a block), and just jumps in place.

There's also something on the right side of the stage that's pushing stuff leftward. Not sure why. Trying to stand on the floating platform on the right adds leftward velocity to the player, and any bits that fall in that general area get a mysterious lift.

Aye. I don't know what obstacles he will be facing in-game so I'm going to be working his "get around shit" methods and give him some decision making when I see where he likes to live best.

The platform has a conveyor thing attached to it I forgot to get rid of. I keep updating my physics for performance and test to make sure moving platforms, hanging, conveyors, etc all work like they should ha! Forgot to remove that script from the block - so dude moves left when you stand on it.
 

Jintor

Member
In sprite-based stuff, when drawing a different sprite based on right or left, what do you think is easiest - a different sprite (probably based off a 'facing' variable), a draw_sprite_ext call, or just to simply xscale (which ruins the bounding boxes)? Or is there a totally easier way I don't know about
 
In sprite-based stuff, when drawing a different sprite based on right or left, what do you think is easiest - a different sprite (probably based off a 'facing' variable), a draw_sprite_ext call, or just to simply xscale (which ruins the bounding boxes)? Or is there a totally easier way I don't know about
Depends on the engine, now that you mention bounding boxes, I would think. Changing the xscale in Unity flips everything including colliders on that object and its children. That's how I handle it.
 

Jobbs

Banned
It took me quite a while and in the end I think it will need some redrawn parts but I'm happy with the result.


vFiNHcs.gif

Much better. I don't mind the oddities (side switching) that much, because what's important is the overall form and motion, and in this case, it works, whereas before it didn't. You've got 3 key poses. neutral, wind up, and full thrust, and they all pop and you can distinctly tell what he's doing and what the intention is.

It does look a bit like he's moving in fast forward, though.
 
I'd greatly appreciate any feedback and suggestions! And be as cruel and blunt as necessary!

Combat definitely clashes with the rest of your game. Have you though about going a little more abstract? maybe just some shapes to represent the different units then you can animate/transform those shapes.

Your buttons also clash with he rest of the style, you have too many font sizes going on in there with inconsistent padding.
 
In sprite-based stuff, when drawing a different sprite based on right or left, what do you think is easiest - a different sprite (probably based off a 'facing' variable), a draw_sprite_ext call, or just to simply xscale (which ruins the bounding boxes)? Or is there a totally easier way I don't know about

If you're afraid of messing with the bounding boxes, save the facing direction as a separate variable and use a flipped draw call (with draw_sprite_ext, yes). The only reason you should use separate sprites is if it's not a symmetrical design or mirror image.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Souls series is exceedingly simple to grasp with very limited everything. It's just difficult to master what it does show you - and those who want to go deeper have that option - it's not a requirement. It's not exactly the best candidate for throwing caution to the wind - there are secrets to be found but that can be said of any game.

It's not exceedingly simple to grasp. Souls player teaching philosophy is not far from my own -- They directly tell you basic information like what a button does if it's something you need to know (with more advanced moves they don't even tell you), and that's it. They don't tell you where to go or what to do or how to do it. The player must wander around and figure it out. It's easy to forget just how lost you are as a new player in a Souls game, because if you're like me you've played them all by now, but the games are very indifferent to the player. And that indifference shapes the whole experience and is part of what makes it so special.

Now, clearly, not every game is or should be Dark Souls. I understand that. But in general games spend a lot of time on very boring, very linear teaching, and I pretty much always find it dreadfully dull. Far Cry Blood Dragon I didn't even make it out of the tutorial it was so tedious. I just said 'fuck this' and dropped the controller. (The Blood Dragon tutorial was sort of lampooning video game tutorials, but it still was one, and it still was a horrible one)

If you're afraid of messing with the bounding boxes, save the facing direction as a separate variable and use a flipped draw call (with draw_sprite_ext, yes). The only reason you should use separate sprites is if it's not a symmetrical design or mirror image.

Which is something only a crazy person would do.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Combat definitely clashes with the rest of your game. Have you though about going a little more abstract? maybe just some shapes to represent the different units then you can animate/transform those shapes.

Your buttons also clash with he rest of the style, you have too many font sizes going on in there with inconsistent padding.
Thanks, that's useful. So for the buttons, do you mean I should make them a fixed width?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom