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[Blizzard]

I concur with Matt.

M, Blizz - people don't usually invoke metrics when they give casual glances to cover art. Citing studies is not something people do when browsing the game section in brick and mortar or online shops. First impressions are often based on looks and what you put on the cover should speak about your game. Directing the mind is no different than mixing music, moving audio around so the listener's ears "snap" to what the musician wants. With cover art, you probably don't want eyes to be snapping to things like breasts at first glance. That doesn't speak much about content or even offer up some curiosity to the viewer so they want to know more about your game.

Just my thoughts.

(I'm guessing Matt == Jobbs?) I feel the statistics were more part of the explanation behind it after it was questioned.

I think my gut reaction was surprise, because I thought the cleavage was mild and the breast size was average or smaller than I typically see. However, maybe I'm wrong? Maybe I'm around an atypical segment of the U.S. population, or maybe I've seen too much stereotypical videogame marketing material.

I guess all we can do is offer our own immediate reactions. To me it looks like a relatively mild anime poster.

 

[Jobbs]

(I'm guessing Matt == Jobbs?) I feel the statistics were more part of the explanation behind it after it was questions.

I think my gut reaction was surprise, because I thought the cleavage was mild and the breast size was average or smaller than I typically see. However, maybe I'm wrong? Maybe I'm around an atypical segment of the U.S. population, or maybe I've seen too much stereotypical videogame marketing material.

I guess all we can do is offer our own immediate reactions. To me it looks like a relatively mild anime poster.

Matt is Jobbs, yes.

I don't think something being tasteful or seeming tacky or otherwise sending a message you may not like is a simple binary question of "sexy woman: yes or no", or "cleavage: yes or no". It's about the overall composition. What is the piece communicating?

And just for the record, while some thin women do have large breasts, it's not super common, especially not when it's naturally occuring, and the cover depicts 5 thin women all with large breasts. Your statistic likely would be far different if it was only including thin women.

Once again, I'm not the boob police. Just talking about my reaction to the cover art as a whole.

 

[BomberMouse]

I'm with Jobbs here. That cover is incredibly unappealing to me, but I also find the cover of VLR ridiculously juvenile to the point of it being borderline parody.

 

[KevinCow]

Looking at TIGSource... man, there are a lot of people making games. And then I look at Steam Greenlight, and yeah, there are a LOT of people making games.

I'm just terrified that I'm going make a game, get it up on Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight, and it's just going to be one of those games that people ignore and click Next with barely a glance.

How do I make sure my game stands out?

 

[JeffG]

How do I make sure my game stands out?

Make a good one. Best place to start

 

[Jobbs]

Looking at TIGSource... man, there are a lot of people making games. And then I look at Steam Greenlight, and yeah, there are a LOT of people making games.

I'm just terrified that I'm going make a game, get it up on Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight, and it's just going to be one of those games that people ignore and click Next with barely a glance.

How do I make sure my game stands out?

Have an angle. Identify and tap into something there's a hunger for -- That you are also genuinely interested in yourself. Because you love it yourself, you'll know how to present the game and communicate the game in ways that spark peoples imaginations.

Identify what it is that people like about whatever game you're making and communicate it in a way that focuses in on their hopes and wishes like a laser. Having good art is also very important.

 

[timetokill]

Looking at TIGSource... man, there are a lot of people making games. And then I look at Steam Greenlight, and yeah, there are a LOT of people making games.

I'm just terrified that I'm going make a game, get it up on Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight, and it's just going to be one of those games that people ignore and click Next with barely a glance.

How do I make sure my game stands out?

That's how I felt when I saw the Screenshot Saturday thread lol

Anyway the answer is gratuitous T&A

 

[mStudios]

Relevant:

None of your characters are overweight, which just leaves voluptuous (natural or surgical).

I don't think there's anything wrong with voluptuousness, but Jobbs does have a point.

I concur with Matt.

M, Blizz - people don't usually invoke metrics when they give casual glances to cover art. Citing studies is not something people do when browsing the game section in brick and mortar or online shops. First impressions are often based on looks and what you put on the cover should speak about your game. Directing the mind is no different than mixing music, moving audio around so the listener's ears "snap" to what the musician wants. With cover art, you probably don't want eyes to be snapping to things like breasts at first glance. That doesn't speak much about content or even offer up some curiosity to the viewer so they want to know more about your game.

Just my thoughts.

The size has increased because of the increase of weight in woman and surgery plays part in that too. But I wanted to point out that there's an average, and all 5 women are below the average. I didn't base any of the characters on studies that I found on the internet. They all were based in real life people.

Cleavage and babes are all part of the gaggle, and everyone has tight clothes.

I'm not trying to sound like the sex police. I don't care if a person puts giant nude tits on their cover. It wouldn't offend me (though I'd never buy something like that). But whatever cover you choose sends a message about your game, and I was trying to alert mstudios to this fact. The message may be one he is aware of and is owning, I don't know, I'm not really tapped into the genre he's operating in.

I think you simply skipped my previous post when I said:

When I sketched the cover I wanted a few thing:
-Tell players who the main character are.
-The game mood (far from happy, mostly dark)
-Tell them that the planet has is an important component in the story and they should look out for it.
-That the space is relevant to the game (background). (Astrology plays a huge part in the game.)
-And a few other things that I haven't added yet.

Specially the last thing, in which I stated that the cover hasn't been completed yet. I started drawing the characters (as usual), now I'm in the process of drawing the rest.

The clothes might look tight, but it's just casual clothing (medium size).

Matt is Jobbs, yes.

I don't think something being tasteful or seeming tacky or otherwise sending a message you may not like is a simple binary question of "sexy woman: yes or no", or "cleavage: yes or no". It's about the overall composition. What is the piece communicating?

And just for the record, while some thin women do have large breasts, it's not super common, especially not when it's naturally occuring, and the cover depicts 5 thin women all with large breasts. Your statistic likely would be far different if it was only including thin women.

Once again, I'm not the boob police. Just talking about my reaction to the cover art as a whole.

Once again, lets provide in-game pictures:

They don't have large chest. But, when it comes down to perspective, it might look bigger than it is. A cleavage view in small breast women makes it look bigger. Celia looks like she might have bigger breast(I did increase Celia's size 3 pixel from the first sketch I had.), but I specifically message each model to provide me a side view picture of their body. I mean, to prove this point you just gotta look at most of the "breast" selfies in Instagram and see how the perspective plays a big point.

There's only one girl with cleavage, and that's Alice-2. and she has cloth under it.

Here's a the best non-explicit example I could find in google images:

All the character from the cover fits in the C range.

I think the reason some people might find them big it's because they're pretty round. Also, keep in mind that all of them are wearing bras, which might help the roundest on the side.

Also I think it comes down to culture too. I'm from Hispanic culture(Living in Jersey) and for me its normal to see a thin girl with C cup size.

-------
I also want to stated that I'm not mad at anyone (and no one is mad at me). I'm just trying to provide example on why they're not (might no be) considered big, at least in my enviroment.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Looking at TIGSource... man, there are a lot of people making games. And then I look at Steam Greenlight, and yeah, there are a LOT of people making games.

I'm just terrified that I'm going make a game, get it up on Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight, and it's just going to be one of those games that people ignore and click Next with barely a glance.

How do I make sure my game stands out?

I dunno. I'm barely starting out with this, and looking at all of the indie games being made doesn't really bother me much. I'm chasing an idea that i'm passionate about, (of course I need to work my way up, not planning on being able to begin making it into something anytime soon) so I don't really mind whatever else is going on around me. The only thing i'm slightly paranoid about is someone doing something similar to my idea before I get a chance to do it myself.

 

[Jumplion]

Looking at TIGSource... man, there are a lot of people making games. And then I look at Steam Greenlight, and yeah, there are a LOT of people making games.

I'm just terrified that I'm going make a game, get it up on Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight, and it's just going to be one of those games that people ignore and click Next with barely a glance.

How do I make sure my game stands out?

As much as I love destructively comparing myself to others (seriously, all you people here are making progress and your awesome stuff and I'm sitting here trying to muster the energy to hash out my own project), you can't go about that route. Or at least, you can't let it consume you. I wouldn't focus right now on what makes your game "stand out", that can be saved for later on when you're trying to push it out there. And sometimes, yeah, things won't work out, but you need to think of the present, one day at a time, instead of the future a year from now.

 

[Jobbs]

Specially the last thing, in which I stated that the cover hasn't been completed yet. I started drawing the characters (as usual), now I'm in the process of drawing the rest.

Fair enough.

And you're going down the flawed path of telling someone they don't see or feel what they see and feel. All I'm telling you is what it looks like to me, and you can do whatever you want with that, or do nothing with it. You can put whatever you want in the game or on the cover.

 

[Pehesse]

I dunno. I'm barely starting out with this, and looking at all of the indie games being made doesn't really bother me much. I'm chasing an idea that i'm passionate about, (of course I need to work my way up, not planning on being able to begin making it into something anytime soon) so I don't really mind whatever else is going on around me. The only thing i'm slightly paranoid about is someone doing something similar to my idea before I get a chance to do it myself.

I strongly believe that an idea, on its own, isn't worth much/anything, and isn't the one thing that will define your game.
If given the exact same idea, two person start working on it without communicating, I believe it'll result it two very different games (you can replace "game" by any other artistic medium here), as it all comes down to execution: aesthetically, thematically, mechanically... so many ways to interpret an "idea". Case in point: isn't what Ludum Dares are all about, anyway?

So I wouldn't worry at all about seeing others do stuff. What matters, at least to me, is to get stuff done, *anything*, and eventually build from that towards what you're passionate about, even if what you're working on isn't directly linked at first. So keep truckin' :-D

(And do keep in mind: I'm saying this because I strongly believe it to be true, but I also completely understand where you're coming from and I'm fighting everyday those same thoughts, as my family nickname "Insane Paranoid" is a constant reminder).

(...)

I just happened on this whole discussion, but when you posted the lineart yesterday, I had a similar reaction to Jobbs'. The discussion about average or real life models has little impact on the actual picture you made, I believe, and I do feel there are visual similarities in the displayed sizes, whether those are actually real and justified or not.

Maybe there is something in your treatment that evokes such largeness, even though you know they are actually smaller? Going off the colored example you've cited of your ingame characters, I find the undershadows to be very present, indicating huge mass. The downward and curvature lines are also very elongated and continuous, indicating overall length as there is no break indicating chest/start of slope. Once again, here's a picture to hopefully convey my point better.

(Disclaimer just in case: I am not trying to offer any judgemental value to any of these, but simply to offer stylistic commentary to two-tone shading. Mass only changes from image to image because I need the shaded area to change.)

This is to me a matter of stylization and volume depiction, not real life proportions. We could get tangled all day trying to define what is "large" or not, and I'm definitely not trying to make judgements one way or the other (which is why I said nothing in the first place) - however, I think some of the visual tools you use to depict the breasts (mostly shading, but lining does play a part and is evidently what we're coming from in the case of your lineart) do make them appear "larger" than you might have intended, going by what you've been saying since the point's been raised, which is the only thing I'm reacting to. Maybe! Or maybe it's all perfectly intended and I'm dead wrong, in which case, the simple point that seems to stand is that they "appear" large to some of us, all other considerations non-withstanding, and it'd be interesting to understand why that is... I think?

 

[Jobbs]

I don't mean to come off stand offish. I support the efforts of everyone here. I'm also not saying there's anything substantively wrong with your game. I haven't even played it or particularly understand the genre. All I can tell you is what I see when I see the cover, and the cover you proposed -- If I saw that game on steam or at a store, and my first point of contact with it was that cover, I'd kind of just pass over it as something not particularly ambitious -- And tacky.

There's nothing wrong with women of any body type or breast size. I'm not comfortable debating the fine points of breasts and how big they ought to be. Anything is fine. The reason it came up at all is because of the uniformity of those on the cover -- A group of 5 women, all thin, all with similarly large breasts. This somewhat implausible arrangement makes it seem like a work of juvenile male fantasy or pandering to juvenile male fantasy. Whether or not that's descriptive of your game in general I do not know, and whether or not there's anything "wrong" with that is another matter and another debate.

And I won't believe you over my lying eyes on the body types and breast sizes portrayed on the cover. I've been doing figure drawing and animation for some years myself, and I think I have a pretty informed idea of body proportions. But that's even beside the point, because you don't need to have an informed idea of it to have an opinion. You see something and have a reaction, and the reaction can't really be bargained with, it just is what it is. When companies do focus testing, they don't come out and argue with the focus group and explain to them why they're wrong. That's not at all useful.

 

[Geminosity]

I haven't even played it or particularly understand the genre.

Visual novels? I'm simplifying a bit but it's easier to understand them when you realise most of them are really just mystery novels with a supernatural/sci-fi twist along with some graphics and limited interaction added :3 You're basically just presented with mysteries or thrust into an unknown situation and you read/converse to solve them or understand what's going on.

~runs away~

 

[Jumplion]

My take is, if there's already some talks about the cover focusing on the wrong aspects of the game, it might need to be tweaked. Though I personally don't see it as a huge deal, I can see where others are coming from.

If anything, personally I find the person(s) standing infront of the camera type of cover to be a bit generic for my tastes. BUT, I'm not one for visual novels and it's a trope that, from what I can tell, is more or less fine for that genre. Shows off all the characters and whatnot.

 

[Icyflamez96]

I strongly believe that an idea, on its own, isn't worth much/anything, and isn't the one thing that will define your game.
If given the exact same idea, two person start working on it without communicating, I believe it'll result it two very different games (you can replace "game" by any other artistic medium here), as it all comes down to execution: aesthetically, thematically, mechanically... so many ways to interpret an "idea". Case in point: isn't what Ludum Dares are all about, anyway??

Eh, I hear this a lot and it never really hits with me well. An idea on it's own isn't much of any good in one sense, but then again, it is, because it gives you a vision/goal of something that you want to strive for. I'm not planning on using my idea in a collaborative project, I know what I want out of it. When I say i'm worried about a specific idea I have being used, i'm talking about someone actually executing on something very similar to the idea I had in mind.

 

[Jobbs]

Incidentally, I've said many times over the years that ideas are a dime a dozen. I used to think about this back during the days when I was trying to come up with a successful comic book.

If you put me and my brother into a room and asked us to come up with cool ideas for a TV show or a movie or a video game or anything, we could do it all day long. Good ideas are easy to the point that I consider them nearly disposable.

The work and execution are what matters and has value.

 

[anteevy]

Looking at TIGSource... man, there are a lot of people making games. And then I look at Steam Greenlight, and yeah, there are a LOT of people making games.

I'm just terrified that I'm going make a game, get it up on Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight, and it's just going to be one of those games that people ignore and click Next with barely a glance.

How do I make sure my game stands out?

Well, if you browse through Greenlight and view the product pages, you'll see that a large part of the games there are fake/will never be finished and look like they were put together in a few days. Maybe that makes you feel better. Besides that, what the others said. Make a game you'd love to play, but also continually have other people/friends play it and give feedback. And don't forget marketing your game, starting at least several months before release.

 

[Pehesse]

Eh, I hear this a lot and it never really hits with me well. An idea on it's own isn't much of any good in one sense, but then again, it is, because it gives you a vision/goal of something that you want to strive for. I'm not planning on using my idea in a collaborative project, I know what I want out of it. When I say i'm worried about a specific idea I have being used, i'm talking about someone actually executing on something very similar to the idea I had in mind.

To me, imagination is the process of deconstruting/reassembling references. The more experiences you have, and the more diverse these experiences are, the more possible combinations you can make. I find it impossible (or statistically irrelevant) that two persons have the exact same set of references, making for the exact same translation of an idea. And that's just for the conceptualization of the idea - execution being the technical translation, you have all the technical experience added on top of that to make it ultimately different (I'm not going into malicious copying here).

I believe that if you were to detail your idea in this very thread, you'd have as many understandings (and ultimately interpretation and executions) of it than people reading it.

I suppose it is *possible* some other person out there might have a similar enough imagination AND technical skillet to execute the exact same idea, interpreted the exact same way, in the exact same manner. I simply find that occurrence very unlikely.

And even IF the exact occurrence you speak of happens to be true, I'd say it should be an extra motivation to get your version out of the door faster than the other guy

 

[2+2=5]

A) This is what I've claimed so far:

• Photoshop uses an O(n²) algorithm for rendering.
• O(n²) complexity scales poorly with n.

B) These are things I've never said or claimed:

• Photoshop algorithm lacks features/is bad/needs to be replaced/smells.
• Papaya algorithm is good/fast/lightweight/cheap/should replace Photoshop algorithm.
• The performance characteristics of Papaya, or any lightweight tool, is relevant to the performance characteristics of Photoshop.

The fact that you seem to infer that I have made any claims from B based off of my statements from A is worrying.


Then you obviously don't care about my central point, because that is the one and only thing I've been talking about within this line of discussion. There is no reason to carry on this dialogue.

What you don't want to understand is that i say that i don't care about the comparison results because the test has no validity at all, the author of the article:

a)neither knows anything about gimp/photoshop algorithms, so he can't say anything about how they works and their performances

b)nor understands that behind each stroke in a professional software there are tons of operations, the time performance of a stroke is not only about a filling algorithm, a stroke is first of all mathematics and only afterwards visualization

The test has no validity, a serious test between filling algorithm speeds(that wouldn't have had sense anyway because it would have been like a speed test between the smart and the camion) would have been with those algorithm implemented in the same benchmark program, in that case i would have believed the author and agreed that gimp/photoshop is n-squared.

Maybe despite all he's lucky and he's right, but he's jumping to conclusions without a scientific approach, showing also utter ignorance because when it comes to something more complex than pixel art each pixel of a brush has influence or is being influenced by the surrounding area, so it's not only just about the radius of the brush, but also about the areas of influence of each pixel.

And there's not just that, professional paint programs adjust the stroke in real time depending on the 256 or even more pressure levels of the pen(unlike the mouse that has just one) and on stroke speed, so there's already lag before the visualization and the fill of the stroke because of the operations that the program has to do just to read and process the input before even starting doing anything on the canvas.

All of this without taking into account layers.

You are free to listen to me or to keep believing who says things knowing absolutely nothing about the matter and jumping on conclusions using tests that have no validity, in any case i have finished here.

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

I think we need to discuss these paintbrush algorithms more

 

[Jacksinthe]

Looking at TIGSource... man, there are a lot of people making games. And then I look at Steam Greenlight, and yeah, there are a LOT of people making games.

I'm just terrified that I'm going make a game, get it up on Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight, and it's just going to be one of those games that people ignore and click Next with barely a glance.

How do I make sure my game stands out?

1) Steam has become a cash grab ever since Greenlight. I'm also quite sure many of the shitty games released probably paid for votes. Steam isn't what it used to be if you are self-publishing. Seek a publisher for better store placement, timing, etc.

2) You never stated your ultimate end-game. Is it to make racks on racks on racks or is it to just have fun and make something without reservation?

3) Find a publisher if visibility and mindshare are at the top of your list.

Let's go back to no.2
If you want to make money - make a game you know will sell, that people want, with mechanics and systems they like, are used to, want to play again. Nostalgia isn't as powerful as it used to be, keep in mind.

People will tell you "do what makes you happy" or "make the game you want to play" and while that approach has merit - reading your comments about Steam and guessing you want to at least be noticed, sell some and turn a small profit - that is the worst advice anyone can give you unless what makes you happy and the game you want to play just so happens to be what everyone under the sun has been itching to play and your audience exists without you lifting a finger.

This is on you, though. There are developers who have made it by accident. By sheer luck where the universe just happens to roll them a 20 in all of its chaos and geometry of chance. Or maybe you just have that one idea that you know will hit it big with something the gaming landscape hasn't seen or if they have seen it - never matured into something great.

So you've got choices. Figure out what your bottom line is, where you want to be in 2 years and go from there - make it happen.

I think we need to discuss these paintbrush algorithms more

That's my fetish.

 

[Ito]

 

[Jacksinthe]

I was waiting for you hahahaha!

 

[Glendemonium]

1) Steam has become a cash grab ever since Greenlight. I'm also quite sure many of the shitty games released probably paid for votes. Steam isn't what it used to be if you are self-publishing. Seek a publisher for better store placement, timing, etc.

2) You never stated your ultimate end-game. Is it to make racks on racks on racks or is it to just have fun and make something without reservation?

3) Find a publisher if visibility and mindshare are at the top of your list.

Let's go back to no.2
If you want to make money - make a game you know will sell, that people want, with mechanics and systems they like, are used to, want to play again. Nostalgia isn't as powerful as it used to be, keep in mind.

People will tell you "do what makes you happy" or "make the game you want to play" and while that approach has merit - reading your comments about Steam and guessing you want to at least be noticed, sell some and turn a small profit - that is the worst advice anyone can give you unless what makes you happy and the game you want to play just so happens to be what everyone under the sun has been itching to play and your audience exists without you lifting a finger.

This is on you, though. There are developers who have made it by accident. By sheer luck where the universe just happens to roll them a 20 in all of its chaos and geometry of chance. Or maybe you just have that one idea that you know will hit it big with something the gaming landscape hasn't seen or if they have seen it - never matured into something great.

So you've got choices. Figure out what your bottom line is, where you want to be in 2 years and go from there - make it happen.



That's my fetish.

I wanted to second this.

That is probably the most important, if you want to make money. I think the nostalgia train has started to derail as of recent. These days it's horror and shootemups with some walking sims and underdogs(goat simulator) in between.

Also, if your game is 3D, it tends to get more votes regardless.

 

[Icyflamez96]

To me, imagination is the process of deconstruting/reassembling references. The more experiences you have, and the more diverse these experiences are, the more possible combinations you can make. I find it impossible (or statistically irrelevant) that two persons have the exact same set of references, making for the exact same translation of an idea. And that's just for the conceptualization of the idea - execution being the technical translation, you have all the technical experience added on top of that to make it ultimately different (I'm not going into malicious copying here).

I believe that if you were to detail your idea in this very thread, you'd have as many understandings (and ultimately interpretation and executions) of it than people reading it.

I suppose it is *possible* some other person out there might have a similar enough imagination AND technical skillet to execute the exact same idea, interpreted the exact same way, in the exact same manner. I simply find that occurrence very unlikely.

And even IF the exact occurrence you speak of happens to be true, I'd say it should be an extra motivation to get your version out of the door faster than the other guy

I think it's possible because it's not like my idea is super unique or anything. I totally feel like it's something that could be on the verge of happening any time now. I've been looking/waiting for it for a while, before I decided I wanted to learn the necessary skills make it myself. The bolded is definitely true...

 

[mStudios]

Thanks for all the opinion, I always take note (that's why I posted what I post). I don't want this de-rail the thread.

I don't mean to come off stand offish. I support the efforts of everyone here. I'm also not saying there's anything substantively wrong with your game. I haven't even played it or particularly understand the genre. All I can tell you is what I see when I see the cover, and the cover you proposed -- If I saw that game on steam or at a store, and my first point of contact with it was that cover, I'd kind of just pass over it as something not particularly ambitious -- And tacky.

There's nothing wrong with women of any body type or breast size. I'm not comfortable debating the fine points of breasts and how big they ought to be. Anything is fine. The reason it came up at all is because of the uniformity of those on the cover -- A group of 5 women, all thin, all with similarly large breasts. This somewhat implausible arrangement makes it seem like a work of juvenile male fantasy or pandering to juvenile male fantasy. Whether or not that's descriptive of your game in general I do not know, and whether or not there's anything "wrong" with that is another matter and another debate.

And I won't believe you over my lying eyes on the body types and breast sizes portrayed on the cover. I've been doing figure drawing and animation for some years myself, and I think I have a pretty informed idea of body proportions. But that's even beside the point, because you don't need to have an informed idea of it to have an opinion. You see something and have a reaction, and the reaction can't really be bargained with, it just is what it is. When companies do focus testing, they don't come out and argue with the focus group and explain to them why they're wrong. That's not at all useful.

I just need to understand the bolded clearly. So reducing the chest size and increasing their weight would make it more appealing to to you and you won't be skipping it over from the list?

I mean, what I'm taking from your comments seems like they're being sexualize and I want to why is this. How come that 5 woman, with similar chest could be a juvenile male fantasy. I think you're giving to much emphasis on the chest and you're skipping over their body types. I already stated before that 2 of the females are from the Military(Celia, Marie), one of the other girl has a strong Martial Art Discipline(Miranda), then Alice is just your regular girl.

If they looked like this I would totally understand the part when you mentioned juvenile fantasy:

My cover doesn't look like any of those. Or lets take the cover of another popular Visual Novel:

A very very interesting Visual Novel, the game has no sexualization and talks about time travel and some other type of crap. But you can't tell that from the cover either.

My cover is still far from the picture above and I don't think that one represents any type of fantasy(You argue about the maid dress tho) and it has six females and two dudes.

And thanks to pehesee for taking the time in making some variations!

 

[BomberMouse]

...

You are making a small flaw in your argument, people judge your cover for what it is, not relative to other pieces of art.

I also think you are taking this too personally. Asking for people opinions then trying to convince them they are wrong makes you look very rude.

 

[mStudios]

You are making a small flaw in your argument, people judge your cover for what it is, not relative to other pieces of art.

I also think you are taking this too personally. Asking for people opinions then trying to convince them they are wrong makes you look very rude.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong in for their opinion and appreciate any type of criticism very well. What I do not understand is where the "Juvenile Male Fantasy" part comes from, just because it has woman in it doesn't mean there is some sort of fetish in the piece.

To be honest, I rather end the argument now. This thread is not about this!

 

[Jobbs]

I'm not saying anyone is wrong in for their opinion and appreciate any type of criticism very well. What I do not understand is where the "Juvenile Male Fantasy" part comes from, just because it has woman in it doesn't mean there is some sort of fetish in the piece.

To be honest, I rather end the argument now. This thread is not about this!

If you think I've been saying all this time that sexy women in a composition turn it into a juvenile male fantasy, then we just aren't able to communicate. The fact that I'd feel good betting $100 on this piece being drawn by a heterosexual young male should tell you all you need to know. A woman wouldn't draw this, because they all look the same, they have no personality, no actual distinguishing traits. They're being objectified by the artist, by the piece, because there is nothing else of note about them except for their uniform breasts, uniform body types, uniform facial structures, and dead eyed, blank stares.

This is being blown out of proportion, though, by the fact that I keep getting prompted to re-litigate my opinion. It's not really that big a deal if some people think your cover or game looks a little silly. The intended audience probably has no problem with it.

 

[mStudios]

If you think I've been saying all this time that sexy women in a composition turn it into a juvenile male fantasy, then we just aren't able to communicate. The fact that I'd feel good betting $100 on this piece being drawn by a heterosexual young male should tell you all you need to know. A woman wouldn't draw this, because they all look the same, they have no personality, no actual distinguishing traits. They're being objectified by the artist, by the piece, because there is nothing else of note about them except for their uniform breasts, uniform body types, uniform facial structures, and dead eyed, blank stares.

This is being blown out of proportion, though, by the fact that I keep getting prompted to re-litigate my opinion. It's not really that big a deal if some people think your cover or game looks a little silly. The intended audience probably has no problem with it.

Excuse me? The actual "anime" style(in-game portraits) were drawn by a woman from the Philippines:
http://mai-kuu.deviantart.com/

Should I give you my PayPal account for you to send me the 100?

Talking about the cover... Only the cover... That's all I've ever been talking about.

Once again, they're based in real people, they do look like that.

I'd love to show you the real models, but I won't show them in a public forum.

Red haired, black-haired, "large" chest, just like that.

 

[Jobbs]

Excuse me? The actual "anime" style(in-game portraits) were drawn by a woman from the Philippines:
http://mai-kuu.deviantart.com/

Talking about the cover... Only the cover... That's all I've ever been talking about.]

Should I give you my PayPal account for you to send me the 100?

No, because I don't see what her drawing some other art I'm not talking about and haven't seen has anything to do with the discussion.

 

[V_Arnold]

mStudios: I really, really like your game's art, and I think that the cover is absolutely fine.

Jobbs: really just a comment, do not take it personally, but I do not get what is considered juvenile (excuse me: silly!) about five fully clothed females standing in a cover. We are in an age where manly man bearing arms and looking heroic is completely grownup, but fully clothed women are no-no? That sounds weird to me.

 

[Jobbs]

mStudios: I really, really like your game's art, and I think that the cover is absolutely fine.

Jobbs: really just a comment, do not take it personally, but I do not get what is considered juvenile (excuse me: silly!) about five fully clothed females standing in a cover. We are in an age where manly man bearing arms and looking heroic is completely grownup, but fully clothed women are no-no? That sounds weird to me.

Again, passing comment blown out of proportion, and continually being baited to re-explain myself has made me necessarily do it in an increasingly pointed way because I don't know how else to do it. If you like the cover, fine, I am not going to tell you you're wrong. All I can do is give my opinion, it's all I've ever done.

 

[mStudios]

Again, passing comment blown out of proportion, and continually being baited to re-explain myself has made me necessarily do it in an increasingly pointed way because I don't know how else to do it. If you like the cover, fine, I am not going to tell you you're wrong. All I can do is give my opinion, it's all I've ever done.

At the end, culture plays a big factor. Anyways, believe it or not, it was nice to hear your opinion and all that. Lets end this in a pacifist way

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

If you think I've been saying all this time that sexy women in a composition turn it into a juvenile male fantasy, then we just aren't able to communicate. The fact that I'd feel good betting $100 on this piece being drawn by a heterosexual young male should tell you all you need to know.A woman wouldn't draw this, because they all look the same, they have no personality, no actual distinguishing traits. They're being objectified by the artist, by the piece, because there is nothing else of note about them except for their uniform breasts, uniform body types, uniform facial structures, and dead eyed, blank stares.

This is being blown out of proportion, though, by the fact that I keep getting prompted to re-litigate my opinion. It's not really that big a deal if some people think your cover or game looks a little silly. The intended audience probably has no problem with it.

Oh come on! I understand your arguments in some of the things you said (and others in this thread), but dont fall into that common denominator Jobbs. There are a bunch of female artists that like to draw in this style (what you are calling generic style, and it only means that is not actually for you, as you have said multiple times, and thats true), and another bunch that like to make women with what you call big breasts on sexual positions just because they like, and not becuase they were forced by anyone.
The female artist on the game we are making loves to do that stuff, while designing females for our game (to the point were im even a little surprised of some of the drawings and we even say to tone down them a notch lol) and even in her free time drawing on her skecthbook only for her pleasure.

I understand you opinion, I really do, and its as welcome as anyone in this thread, but lets not get carried away and generalise, becuase that would be wrong.
And with that I say, yeah, let finish the discussion becuase its obvious its not going anywhere.

 

[Jobbs]

I could try to further explain it, but, whatever -- Guys, don't badger people over their opinion. If you know in your heart they're wrong, just filter it out. There'll always be a lot of opinions out there, and you'll have to learn to deal with it if you plan on operating in this type of space. That's the real take away here.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

I could try to further explain it, but, whatever -- Guys, don't badger people over their opinion. If you know in your heart they're wrong, just filter it out. There'll always be a lot of opinions out there, and you'll have to learn to deal with it if you plan on operating in this type of space. That's the real take away here.

Im with you in this.
Even if your game is great, or you think it is (or movies, music, art...), there are going to be always opinions in favour and against it. You need to cope with them and choose which opinoons you want to hear, and which ones you dont.

 

[Jacksinthe]

Everyone - can it.

Here's how this works: if you can't take criticism - STOP POSTING HERE. Stop posting everywhere and if you think this is something to get upset about? Release your game to the public.

I got stomped right here in front of everyone over a fucking name. A goddamn name.

If you have problems taking criticism over something wildly more nuanced, knowing it's not a black and white issue, then you shouldn't be here or making games, in general. This isn't the line of work you need to pursue because it gets much MUCH worse in the public realm. You can either take criticism to heart and stop arguing semantics over someone else's observation or don't post.

We are here to both support and criticize each other. Deal with both. No excuses.

 

[mStudios]

Edited my previosu comment.

Instead, I'm gonna post more sketches:

This is another section from the second puzzle in the game. This is where Alice-2 takes place for the first time in the game!

 

[ColossalLazy]

My cover doesn't look like any of those. Or lets take the cover of another popular Visual Novel:




A very very interesting Visual Novel, the game has no sexualization and talks about time travel and some other type of crap. But you can't tell that from the cover either.

My cover is still far from the picture above and I don't think that one represents any type of fantasy(You argue about the maid dress tho) and it has six females and two dudes.

And thanks to pehesee for taking the time in making some variations!

This is not the cover for the game, but from the anime. The covers for the game are infinitely superior, reflect the artstyle used in the game and you can see that it deals with sci-fi elements:

 

[Jobbs]

I don't know anything about this game or much about anime in general, but I do really think this is a terrific cover, for whatever that's worth.

 

[Ito]

Those legs would break just under the weight of the clothes she's wearing.

Also look at all those gears. They just look all the same to me. They're all identical, black, with prominent teeth. They're not representative of the wide range of gear types existing in our real world. Where are the helical gears? What about bevel type gears?

I think I'm triggered.

 

[GulAtiCa]

Thanks guys. Yeah, I'm pretty happy with how it's performing so far. People really seem to be enjoying it so far too! That makes me happy, spent a good year improving it from the original NA version. All that time seemed to pay off for me.

 

[Jacksinthe]

Thanks guys. Yeah, I'm pretty happy with how it's performing so far. People really seem to be enjoying it so far too! That makes me happy, spent a good year improving it from the original NA version. All that time seemed to pay off for me.

Good, dude! Glad to be hearing this!

 

[Mabef]

Those legs would break just under the weight of the clothes she's wearing.

Also look at all those gears. They just look all the same to me. They're all identical, black, with prominent teeth. They're not representative of the wide range of gear types existing in our real world. Where are the helical gears? What about bevel type gears?

I think I'm triggered.

Please, don't.

 

[KevinCow]

1) Steam has become a cash grab ever since Greenlight. I'm also quite sure many of the shitty games released probably paid for votes. Steam isn't what it used to be if you are self-publishing. Seek a publisher for better store placement, timing, etc.

2) You never stated your ultimate end-game. Is it to make racks on racks on racks or is it to just have fun and make something without reservation?

3) Find a publisher if visibility and mindshare are at the top of your list.

Let's go back to no.2
If you want to make money - make a game you know will sell, that people want, with mechanics and systems they like, are used to, want to play again. Nostalgia isn't as powerful as it used to be, keep in mind.

People will tell you "do what makes you happy" or "make the game you want to play" and while that approach has merit - reading your comments about Steam and guessing you want to at least be noticed, sell some and turn a small profit - that is the worst advice anyone can give you unless what makes you happy and the game you want to play just so happens to be what everyone under the sun has been itching to play and your audience exists without you lifting a finger.

This is on you, though. There are developers who have made it by accident. By sheer luck where the universe just happens to roll them a 20 in all of its chaos and geometry of chance. Or maybe you just have that one idea that you know will hit it big with something the gaming landscape hasn't seen or if they have seen it - never matured into something great.

So you've got choices. Figure out what your bottom line is, where you want to be in 2 years and go from there - make it happen.



That's my fetish.

I suppose my goal is fourfold:

1) I want to have fun making the game, which I am.

2) I want to be able to put on my resume that I completed and released a game and did all of the programming.

3) I want people to actually play my game and hopefully enjoy it.

4) I'd like to make at least a little bit of money. It looks like I'm going to have to put some money into this project for tools, music, sounds, and a second artist, so I'd like to at least make that back, plus some to pay my primary artist who's been working hard for free so far, plus some for me.


It's probably too late to change the type of game I'm making, so I'm kinda stuck with making the kind of game I wanted to make, as opposed to the kind of game I thought would sell. I guess I can just hope that it turns out to be something that people want to play, and that my art style is good enough to grab the attention of people on a quick glance.

 

[titch]

My very first from scratch half done animation.

Please dont laugh too hard!!!!

 

[liliththepale]

My very first from scratch half done animation.

Please dont laugh too hard!!!!

You have to copy the image URL, not the page URL.

 

[titch]

fail

tbh i knew it wasnt working and was about to fix it just ran out of time....