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GAF Indie Game Development Thread 2: High Res Work for Low Res Pay

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Jobbs

Banned
Yeah, I am not saying that it was rightful of them to do so.
I am only sharing my point of view in hopes that if, by some positive approach, someone gets to convert 3-5-10% of their pirated version-audience into the legit costumers, that is a big win in my book. Treating all of thems as scum is not helping the situation. I understand your frustration too, it is not an easy issue to deal with.

These people are stealing from you. If it were me (and, in time, I'm sure it will be) I'd have a hard time finding anything within me that would allow me to be nice about it.

Someone steals your wallet, or your 3DS (someone DID steal my 3DS last summer), or your years of work and your livelihood, they're an asshole and not only am I unsure how you can be nice to them about it, but how your plans to convert pirates to customers is even a realistic proposition.

People pirate because they value nothing (when it comes to software -- bytes on a hard drive they don't, for whatever reason, consider something that is to be respected or worth paying for). This is a hard kind of person to convert to a paying customer.

First step: do not think of them as "pirates". You do not know how many legit games they might have. Maybe there are "legit" AAAA-players who wont ever look at indie games, for your perspective, they are less useful as hyping up your game than someone who checks out games from torrent version, then buys them if he/she likes them.

I don't believe this kind of person is very common. You're telling me someone doesn't mind stealing software, but will then pay for it after stealing it? I just don't think this is very common at all.

And if a person steals games, they're a thief and a pirate. So I will think of that person as both. You can't be "sorta someone who steals". You either steal or don't.

Personally, I don't consider them as pirates at all, I'm not thinking in
sociological terms (at least I'm not trying to). They are just there and we
have to deal with them. That's all. Those who go nuts due to the pirates
copying their games, I don't understand. It's extremely important to keep
egocentric thoughts out of any such discussion. If one has a huge problem with
all the pirates, and if ones life depends on any penny gained from a game in
such a market, better change business. I mean, the pirates exist since, well,
forever, and with them the conditions under which every ones game will cross
the market. And these conditions are clear/known right from the start. So
better deal with it rightfully than being blindfolded by a world that never
existed in the first place.

As usual, I really have no idea what missile is talking about. XD The fact that pirates exist and we can't stop them from existing doesn't somehow excuse their behavior. They are pirates. If you pirate software, you are a software pirate. It's a definition.

I'm not saying that someone who steals games is an irredeemable person with no positive qualities and they're the scum of the earth. A lot of people who pirate are kids. What I'm saying is that the act of pirating, stealing, is a really negative, thoughtless, and illegal thing to do and there's no reason for us not to be offended or upset when someone steals from us.
 
GAF has a history of victim blaming as it concerns pirating

Yes, DRM can be a pain in the fucking ass, but "deal with it" as it concerns to pirating is a really bad place to start a conversation with the developer struggling to eat and pay his bills.
 

missile

Member
... As usual, I really have no idea what missile is talking about. XD The fact that pirates exist and we can't stop them from existing doesn't somehow excuse their behavior. They are pirates. If you pirate software, you are a software pirate. It's a definition. ...
;) If you may read my little paragraph again, you may find out that I'm
neither trying to excuse nor not excuse their behavior. The point I'm trying
to make is, that it doesn't matter whether their behavior can be excused or
not regarding the situation at hand, i.e. in how to deal with the fact that
many of the games will be pirated and how to factor this into the equation of
ones very own game when it comes to market. That's all about for me.

I'm not interested in whether it's ok to pirate or not, or if someone steels
something from me with me now consider him/her an asshole whatever, and
being mad at life, the universe, whatnot. No. That's a waste of time for me.
I will leave this to other people fighting out the sociological aspect of what
our ""society"" thinks is good or bad. I pretty much don't care. Not because
I'm careless, but because pirating is not the cause, it's an effect based on
our (ill-conditioned) society.

I want rational solutions and not any feelings nor emotions. Guys, that's what
girls are for!
 
;) If you may read my little paragraph again, you may find out that I'm
neither trying to excuse nor not excuse their behavior. The point I'm trying
to make is, that it doesn't matter whether their behavior can be excused or
not regarding the situation at hand, i.e. in how to deal with the fact that
many of the games will be pirated and how to factor this into the equation of
ones very own game when it comes to market. That's all about for me.

I'm not interested in whether it's ok to pirate or not, or if someone steels
something from me with me now consider him/her an asshole whatever, and
being mad at life, the universe, whatnot. No. That's a waste of time for me.
I will leave this to other people fighting out the sociological aspect of what
our ""society"" thinks is good or bad. I pretty much don't care. Not because
I'm careless, but because pirating is not the cause, it's an effect based on
our (ill-conditioned) society.

I want rational solutions and not any feelings nor emotions. Guys, that's what
girls are for
!

Touching on this first, Joking probably, but something about that seems really sexist.

Anyways, it's established that you don't care, but for those of us that lose money we need to support our families and keep our businesses running, it's kind of a big deal. Hence why we bother discussing it among peers that understand the consequences of it. Telling us you don't care so we shouldn't care either is a really poor way to move the conversation forward.
 

KillySG10

Neo Member
I have a question for you guys here, if i may.

So i've been trying to get into indie development for a while, personal issues, especially with mood always end up making me give up, but im working on that.

Basically, i was wondering where you guys think the best starting point is, i kinda wanna use unity, start by learning c# and work my way up from there, but, i dont know if this is really aiming too high, every time ive tried learning to use unity before i get incredibly frustrated, especially when it comes to coding, so really im wondering, is there somewhere else i should start first, on an easier to use engine, and work my way back up to something like unity, or are there some good tutorials you can suggest i go with for unity and anything i need to use it (like c# for coding).

I realise i need to start on small and simple stuff, thats a given either way, im basically wondering is it worth diving into unity and struggling through and are there some good tutorials for beginners (something good for a complete idiot like me), or is there something better to start with?

When it comes to simpler engines though, i'm kinda hoping theres something that uses c# still, but isnt as necessary to completing simple games, so that i can move up to unity with at least a basic and solid understanding of coding.

Also, it doesnt have to be aiming for unity, but from what ive read about different engines it seems to be where im aiming for.
 

V_Arnold

Member
GAF has a history of victim blaming as it concerns pirating

Yes, DRM can be a pain in the fucking ass, but "deal with it" as it concerns to pirating is a really bad place to start a conversation with the developer struggling to eat and pay his bills.

Lets clarify some things before I find myself tagged as The Pirate Defender or as the Indie Blamer, shall we?

There are things in life that are impossible for an individual to change. That does not mean that they should not strive for change, of course, but it should mean that a clear mind can clearly realize that the concerns are taking away energy from their daily activities.

So, lets apply this principle to piracy and video game development.

Fact: Unless you are doing the always online route, it is pretty much impossible to stop people from playing your game for free.
Fact: There are many ways that you can deal with this, including but not limited to:
- Going free in the first place (the F2P route)
- Setting up ingame shop/donations in addition/in exchange for extra content (the transactions route)
- Relying heavily on online modes, server authentication and regular updates (the online community route)
...and different combinations of the aforementioned solutions.

What does not seem to work:
a. Going with a DRM for an othewise offline-only, "play once" experience (Because they end up on pirated sites anyway, if only a few days after, if even that)
b. Trying to encrypt the hell off your assets/data (because if it is worth it, they will get the data they need, one way or another)
c. Antagonizing a few million people, even if it includes potential fans from places like Brazil/Russia/China ( because lets face it: if you got a $10 phone as a gift, and do not even know the concept of a visa/masterCard, or have no disposable income, yet have access to the internet thanks to parents...then you are not a soulless thief for life, imho)

My point initally was simple: although it truly sucks that the world is as it is, we are facing so many problems regarding development that worrying even more about whether the game will be pirated or not is absolutely detrimental to a healthy development mindset. The only thing that seems to help (beside using the aforementioned working business models, f2p, microtransactions, online-only, regular updates, etc) is simply to try and make the game as good as it possibly can be so you have honest fans who will do the conversion for you out of good faith.

This was my point initally, sorry if I offended someone with the notion that we should not waste energy on trying to fight an unwinnable war.
 
I have a question for you guys here, if i may.

So i've been trying to get into indie development for a while, personal issues, especially with mood always end up making me give up, but im working on that.

Basically, i was wondering where you guys think the best starting point is, i kinda wanna use unity, start by learning c# and work my way up from there, but, i dont know if this is really aiming too high, every time ive tried learning to use unity before i get incredibly frustrated, especially when it comes to coding, so really im wondering, is there somewhere else i should start first, on an easier to use engine, and work my way back up to something like unity, or are there some good tutorials you can suggest i go with for unity and anything i need to use it (like c# for coding).

I realise i need to start on small and simple stuff, thats a given either way, im basically wondering is it worth diving into unity and struggling through and are there some good tutorials for beginners (something good for a complete idiot like me), or is there something better to start with?

When it comes to simpler engines though, i'm kinda hoping theres something that uses c# still, but isnt as necessary to completing simple games, so that i can move up to unity with at least a basic and solid understanding of coding.

Also, it doesnt have to be aiming for unity, but from what ive read about different engines it seems to be where im aiming for.

Honestly, if you're looking into learning the concepts behind programming before jumping head first into programming, then Game Maker: Studio is an excellent alternative. GM:S is looked down on by a lot of people before it's given a fair shake-down. It's a very powerful tool depending on what you want to do, and it's easy to learn. While you won't be learning C# or C++ using it, the GML scripting language and the structure of assets is a great way to learn to think like a programmer before you start programming. It also helps you get into something you can start playing with and producing results much faster with zero knowledge going in.

Again, it's not Unity, but if you find yourself having a hard time sticking with Unity and learning a language from scratch it's a great alternative. You have a serious uphill battle if you want to start making games in C++ with zero programming knowledge, as getting to a point where you have enough knowledge built up to even make a game could take a long time.
 

missile

Member
Touching on this first, Joking probably, but something about that seems really sexist.
Joking, indeed. Sexist? Ok, let's stick with the pirates than. xD

... Anyways, it's established that you don't care, but for those of us that lose money we need to support our families and keep our businesses running, it's kind of a big deal. Hence why we bother discussing it among peers that understand the consequences of it. Telling us you don't care so we shouldn't care either is a really poor way to move the conversation forward.
You got it the complete wrong way. Am in the same boat. But man, I will wait
until the emotional aspect has settled and we can start to talk about real
solutions, ideas, etc.. I don't want to talked about if pirating threatens
peoples life, business, etc., because it won't help them. It's bad, if so.
But it won't help. Can you understand this? Any emotional aspect won't help.
Only rational thoughts will help. And this is my point across all my posts
regarding the pirates. No?
 
People act like this rule doesn't apply to digital software though.

Yes, this is the problem in a nutshell.
Copyright infringement - which is what software piracy is - is not perceived to be theft by most people. It's also not comparable to 'real' theft, because with 'real' theft the thief deprives the victim of the item stolen. With software piracy, both the "victim" and the "thief" each have their own copy of the item.

I have made the correlation before, but this is anecdotal evidence and I can't source anything, that if you look at piracy rates on the PC as absolute percentages, they are right in line with conversion rates of F2P software. It is between the 1-3% mark.

Yes, I am saying that if you release a title on a platform where casual piracy is easy - whether that's the PC, Android, whatever - you're likely going to be looking at 97 - 99% piracy rate for pay software.
A F2P title that is very successful in converting users into customers is going to be thrilled at a 3% conversion rate, because that's really really high.

So first of all, we have the scenario that illegitimate market forces (piracy) and legitimate market forces (designing a F2P game) both end up with the situation that more than 97/100 people who have access to a game will never pay a cent for it under any circumstance.

So my advice to you, is don't sweat those 97%.
They're honestly not lost sales you have failed to cater for.
They're illusions.
They're numbers on a torrent tracking site.
They're numbers in a spreadsheet.
There is nothing you can possibly do to stop them existing, and the more time and effort you spend focussing on that 97% is time and effort that you would be better off spending focussing on the other 2% who pirated it but can be persuaded to end up paying you anyway. Or focus on the 1% who are the good guys who bought your stuff when 99 of their peers didn't.

GAF has a history of victim blaming as it concerns pirating

Yes, DRM can be a pain in the fucking ass, but "deal with it" as it concerns to pirating is a really bad place to start a conversation with the developer struggling to eat and pay his bills.

This I do disagree with, because no software is piracy free, and the starting point line of thought of any DRM is that everyone is a criminal until they prove to the software that they are not.

The end result is always that the pirate eventually gets the better experience than the paying customer.

EDIT:
Basically, i was wondering where you guys think the best starting point is, i kinda wanna use unity, start by learning c# and work my way up from there

You could do a lot worse than start using Unity with Javascript and following something like Codeacademy to understand the basics of programming in general while familiarising yourself with Unity, and as you feel you understand each concept look at the C# reference in the unity manual and compare it to the JS one to see what is different.
 
So my advice to you, is don't sweat those 97%.
They're honestly not lost sales you have failed to cater for.
They're illusions.
They're numbers on a torrent tracking site.
They're numbers in a spreadsheet.
There is nothing you can possibly do to stop them existing, and the more time and effort you spend focussing on that 97% is time and effort that you would be better off spending focussing on the other 2% who pirated it but can be persuaded to end up paying you anyway. Or focus on the 1% who are the good guys who bought your stuff when 99 of their peers didn't.

Unfortunately this is really the best advice. I can't do anything software side to try and stop piracy, because it hurts the people that do support me. However, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone if I focus my efforts more on platforms where piracy isn't as much of a concern. For example, if I release my game on Steam, and then on Consoles, and it outperforms the Steam version by a wide margin, would it not make business sense to build your next game with consoles in mind, since you saw your biggest revenue there? It's not abandoning the platform that saw the most piracy, or the supporting customers you have there, but it's no longer focusing on that as the primary platform.

To me, if it's the way things play out, I see that as a natural solution.
 
DRM is a no no for me. Pirates will pirate regardless and I doubt there is any legit way to covert some to sales. Their ideology lacks that sort of logic.

The part that stings the most is seeing it happen to you and it makes it more difficult to progress and improve. If a chunk of those pirates bought my game for 99c I'd already have PS4 and possibly Vita builds running already.

It will always happen in a digital marketplace and I and I'm sure all of you understand that going in. My biggest beef is that this limits growth. I wasn't looking to quit my job with our mobile game, just make enough between two platforms to cover a single devkit :(

That would help me progress. Sadly that's not the case. It was reviewed very well by both journos as well as forum discussions on a few popular mobile sites, higher than i expected which was a shock to me (I'm a very horrible critic of my work) but that didn't translate to sales.

I'll just keep plugging away and show our work when we are ready. If the Kickstarter fails I won't be able to afford console development. Here's hoping going in loaded for PS4 development as a guarantee will be worth some pledges.
 
To me, if it's the way things play out, I see that as a natural solution.

I mean, the entire point of being an indie developer is doing things the way you want to without having to justify yourself to anyone, so if thats the route you end up going that's your route and noone can say shit about it.

Having said that, I have no idea what kind of actual sales you would get on console versus on PC, but I do know your actual out of pocket costs are going to be higher to go there, so I'd recommend not burning any bridges or abandoning an existing fanbase for "grass is greener" syndrome.

As shitty as seeing 1000 sales to every 100,000 torrent must feel, I can only imagine it would feel even shittier to drop a few grand on a console port, see those same few thousand sales, and then dry up completely unless you luck into getting a PS+ / GWG promo deal.
 
Why do some developers silently assume these 97% could indeed be sales?
I never got that one.

I think its entirely understandable human nature, and some of those pirates are - unquestionably - lost sales.

It's the same way most peoples natural instinct to seeing high piracy levels would be to try and punish the pirates, rather than to try and reward the people who aren't.

I've been heavily involved in F2P game design professionally for the last 7 or so years which accounts for my perspective on this - certainly when I started the "obvious" design solutions were things like "punish or limit the people not paying" (which makes for shitty games) rather than "constantly remind people who do pay that they're awesome".
 

Rubikant

Member
I want to hear, anyways. I like people's thoughts even if these are way
philosophical etc.. Especially yours were always an interesting line to
follow. Well, I think this thread could be a more colorful place if people
would also share their minds on things which aren't quite down to earth or can
be applied immediately to games or the universe for that matter. I think, it
should be possible in here to write down some pressing thoughts without being
called by reality right at the spot.

Thanks! Honestly the main reason I ditched my post is that I realized it wasn't very cohesive. I was ranting about two almost completely unrelated things without really separating them out, they both just happened to be pet peeves of mine triggered at the same time. Plus, it had nothing to do with piracy which is what everyone else is debating about right now (my opinions on that subject match MrNyarlathotep's). I'll try to recall what I was ranting about here...

Rant #1: RPG mechanics being put into every game under the sun these days. I mean, I get it, RPG elements are great, having your character get more powerful is satisfying, having quests and side-quests and deep story is compelling. However, as a gamer I'm getting a little tired of every game going this route, and as a developer, I went out of my way to avoid it in my own Volgarr game. There are downsides to RPG elements you know, such as grinding, or inverse difficulty curve (game is harder at the beginning and easier at the end since you level up).

Also, often RPG elements are used to add unnecessary length and complexity to a game just to make it seem like its more of a "good deal" by the messed-up measurement of comparing cost to "hours of play" when judging the worth of a game (something perpetuated by many reviewers unfortunately). To me, if you take a 5 hour action game and stretch it out to 30+ hours by adding RPG elements, I'd rather just play the original 5 hour action game. I've grinded enough, messed with sorting through my inventory enough, and had enough poorly written game stories in my life that I just would rather stick to the meat of the game.

An example I gave is Star Fox 64 and how it was a straight-forward simple romp and yet is typically considered the best game in its series (with the second best being the game right before it which was the same way). All the later games tried to complexify the series in various ways to give it more depth but were never as well liked. It seems no one that later worked on that series could bring themselves to stick to just having you shoot enemies down a linear tube for most the game and focus on polishing that experience as much as possible, they all felt compelled to do more with it, not believing that maybe there are still gamers out there that don't want that extra stuff and just want to shoot things in a tube but with new enemies, bosses, and levels!

Now even games like death match first-person shooters have RPG elements in them. I'm not really into the genre much anyway, but still, bugs me that I can't just use my raw skill and go on to an online match and shoot some other players, I'm restricted in what I can do until I put in my time and level up and get access to everything first. WTF?

Rant #2: Game design decisions based on marketability. This was only somewhat related in the idea that one should seriously consider having RPG elements in their game, even in a genre that traditionally rarely did (but had great success with the ones that did, to be fair) like a belt scroller (aka beat-em-up) because that would make it more marketable. Now, if you just really like the idea of an RPG+belt scroller game (like River City Ransom, which was awesome, so that's cool), then go for it! But if you really just want to make Final Fight or Streets of Rage, then that's fine too!

My philosophy is that if you find something appealing, chances are there's hundreds of thousands of people out there that would also find it appealing, the trick is just to find them and let them know that what they want exists. True, there may be a much larger segment that would find something else even more appealing, but you have to ask yourself what your goals are with making an indie game. Are you trying to get rich? Well, I've got news for you - extremely unlikely to happen, you are far better off choosing a different career path. Are you making a game because you have an idea for a game and you want to see that game exist? Great! Then don't compromise your vision by considering marketing in the design of the game itself!

If you follow what the market demands, that just puts you in direct competition with other developers that likely have much more resources than you do. Far better to pursue a smaller niche that isn't being as well-served, I say. While its true that if you are doing a retro-style game you aren't being exactly original anyway, you might still be unique and rare in today's market if everyone else has moved on to a different way of making that style of game. I.e., if everyone is making belt-scroller+RPG, and you are making belt-scroller sans RPG, you might have a smaller target audience but also potentially more passionate one that isn't being as well-served, and have less direct competition for that sub-market. Of course, if the game you are passionate about making happens to be in line with the market demand anyway, don't let competition stop you, just focus on making it uniquely yours and as polished as possible.

Either way, I just don't think you should be thinking about marketability in your game design decisions. That's the line of thinking that drove me to quit my cushy high-paying job when my company was taken over by a freemium games company. I became indie to get away from having every game design decision tie into profits somehow. I say make the game you want to make, and then figure out how to let people know about it. Assume there are enough people out there that would find the same thing appealing that you do, and concentrate on serving that audience as best you can with as much quality and polish as you can, and on figuring out how to get the word out. Don't compromise your game design to seek a "broader audience" - that's what the non-indie game devs do, and again they have way more resources, you'll never compete with them.

You may even upset a lot of people -- I get messages all the time telling me if I just changed certain aspects of Volgarr (like adding an easy mode) it would increase its broad appeal and get me more sales, and I ignore them, because I know that if I made those changes, yes it may increase the mass appeal of the game, but it would also make it just like so many other games and ruin the appeal for the particular niche market that doesn't want those things and is sick of those things being in so many other games and appreciate that mine doesn't do that! Again, if the goal was to make money, I'd make far more doing something else entirely, plus, broader appeal doesn't necessarily make more money because you then increase how many other games you are competing with in the same space, so there's every possibility that giving in to these suggestions would have decreased my profits rather than increased them anyway.

That doesn't mean you should completely ignore feedback of course, just try to filter most of it out. Look at each piece of feedback and consider if it serves the greater vision of the game (maybe even consider writing down exactly what the core pillar goals of the game are for you to help remind yourself and keep on track). Games designed "by committee" from listening to too much feedback may be inoffensive and not generate hate (like Volgarr did... such hate, especially from the XB1 release, wow...), but at the same time they end up being ho-hum mediocre affairs that don't ignite passion in anyone. Making a focus-group-style game that targets the mass market is extremely unlikely to be successful from an indie dev due to competition, and also very unlikely to be satisfying to the dev that made it (unless their goal was more centered around a particular art style or just the raw joy of programming and the game's design wasn't an important part of the development experience anyway).

...

Anyway hope that doesn't offend anyway.
 

SeanNoonan

Member
I wish I could voice my opinion on piracy - but I know too much and would probably get fired if I spoke my full opinion on the matter.


...that being said, with my own personal indie releases, I actually don't mind it so much. I get so few sales anyway, it's just nice to know that the game is ending up in people's hands in some way. My opinion may change if it was my primary source of income... but that's heading towards things I can't talk about :D
 

missile

Member
What a great post, Rubikant! Thanks! Should be linked in the first one....

...
Rant #1: RPG mechanics ... Also, often RPG elements are used to add unnecessary length and complexity to a game just to make it seem like its more of a "good deal" by the messed-up measurement of comparing cost to "hours of play" when judging the worth of a game (something perpetuated by many reviewers unfortunately). To me, if you take a 5 hour action game and stretch it out to 30+ hours by adding RPG elements, I'd rather just play the original 5 hour action game. I've grinded enough, messed with sorting through my inventory enough, and had enough poorly written game stories in my life that I just would rather stick to the meat of the game. ...
That's interesting since it relates to my 'platform building' post earlier
from today. Artificially stretching a game and introducing RPG elements into
it to interpolate a platform out of it with no weight, is messy at best.

... An example I gave is Star Fox 64 and how it was a straight-forward simple romp and yet is typically considered the best game in its series (with the second best being the game right before it which was the same way). All the later games tried to complexify the series in various ways to give it more depth but were never as well liked. It seems no one that later worked on that series could bring themselves to stick to just having you shoot enemies down a linear tube for most the game and focus on polishing that experience as much as possible, they all felt compelled to do more with it, not believing that maybe there are still gamers out there that don't want that extra stuff and just want to shoot things in a tube but with new enemies, bosses, and levels! ...
That's another interesting case. I currently have a similar issue with the
"supposed to be WipEout successor" known as Formula Fusion. Am a diehard
regarding WipEout. Call me an elite pilot! :+ Having said that, I'm completely
torn about Formula Fusion. I haven't voiced my opinion yet to not spoil their
funding party. xD But let me show you how Formula Fusion matches exactly your
pattern, i.e. it looks like a complexfied WipEout game. Let me explain a bit.
What's new? We now get post race analytics, technological research, class
progression and thousand craft customizations. It reads;

"... Your craft is everything - it's more than just a cosmetic shell. Your
craft is the accumulation of dozens of technological variables spec'd to fit
your specific playing style. Each variable feeds the player experience - after
each race, feedback systems relay analytical data back to your garage,
allowing you to fine tune your craft to shave off those extra seconds ...".


Which I consider cosmetic for a WipEout game at best. It's not really needed
for the way of racing which is WipEout. It's feels like we got spilled with
all that Formula 1 cosmetic to make the game look improved, bigger, better,
whatever. But wait, there is more;

"... Technological research, class progression and craft customisation.
Gameplay includes a layer of technology research and craft customisation
through the team garage facility. Includes five craft classes to progress
through and master, from amateur to the slick Hyper Class. After hitting key
research milestones within each class, additional crafts with greater
performance capabilities are unlocked and form the basis of the next class of
research upgrades. The physical geometry of your craft changes, but the
underlying technology will remain. The final class unlocked - ExperimentalTECH
- representing the pinnacle craft of each research institute and demonstrating
excellence in engineering, are capable of travelling at speeds well beyond the
speed of sound and are regarded as scientific breakthroughs. ..."


Any questions? They even want to improve upon the weapons making them more
technological (matching the time frame), you can hack into another craft etc.,
hmm, do I? One of the pillars of all the WipEout games were their simplicity
with the focus being put on the race. I wish with Formula Fusion they would
put more emphasis on improving the pure racing aspects of the game, for
example, by building superior racing tracks (which is way hard), awesome
gameplay mechanics of all the crafts, and really enhance the tactical aspect
with non-annoying elements. Really, I don't want to progress through classes
etc. the umpteenth time. Give me all the cool tracks, a craft, the speed, and
an awesome competitor and I am set.

I'm not saying that they won't do the things I mentioned, I'm torn as stated,
but from what I've read so far about all the customization and all the
progression etc. am very skeptical to say the least. But let me mention also a
good thing; "... matchmaking systems created by world-leading esports
provider, ESL". AG competitive on-line racing will be awesome,
when it works
.

I support the game, nevertheless.

Kickstarter: Formula Fusion - Next-Gen Anti-Gravity Racing Game


Friends in Speed
 

Lautaro

Member
YESS!! Nomad Fleet has been greenlit after 20 days full of anxiety!

pj275DN.png

Now I only need to finish it.

EDIT: holy shit! I just checked and this was a huge batch of games greenlit... well, I'm still happy.
 
I have a question for you guys here, if i may.

So i've been trying to get into indie development for a while, personal issues, especially with mood always end up making me give up, but im working on that.

Basically, i was wondering where you guys think the best starting point is, i kinda wanna use unity, start by learning c# and work my way up from there, but, i dont know if this is really aiming too high, every time ive tried learning to use unity before i get incredibly frustrated, especially when it comes to coding, so really im wondering, is there somewhere else i should start first, on an easier to use engine, and work my way back up to something like unity, or are there some good tutorials you can suggest i go with for unity and anything i need to use it (like c# for coding).

I realise i need to start on small and simple stuff, thats a given either way, im basically wondering is it worth diving into unity and struggling through and are there some good tutorials for beginners (something good for a complete idiot like me), or is there something better to start with?

When it comes to simpler engines though, i'm kinda hoping theres something that uses c# still, but isnt as necessary to completing simple games, so that i can move up to unity with at least a basic and solid understanding of coding.

Also, it doesnt have to be aiming for unity, but from what ive read about different engines it seems to be where im aiming for.

I think the closest engine that sticks with C is Clickteam Fusion, unless I'm really mistaken. And what I've learned about the engine is despite it's archaic way of learning it's interface, your games fare better chances of working properly than other simple engines other than Unity. In the end, getting your game to work is paramount and once you do that it'll boost your confidence into trying out Unity.

Some people are able to learn much with Unity off the bat, maybe if you still want to keep at Unity make a real simple debug room to test out the kind of game you want to make. A simple platformer is a good place to start, you can learn how to code mechanics each step of the way. Youtube has tutorials a plenty for you to use.
 

missile

Member
I think its entirely understandable human nature, and some of those pirates are - unquestionably - lost sales.

It's the same way most peoples natural instinct to seeing high piracy levels would be to try and punish the pirates, rather than to try and reward the people who aren't.

I've been heavily involved in F2P game design professionally for the last 7 or so years which accounts for my perspective on this - certainly when I started the "obvious" design solutions were things like "punish or limit the people not paying" (which makes for shitty games) rather than "constantly remind people who do pay that they're awesome".
From you experience, some interesting ways to follow to reward the people who
aren't pirating your game?


Hopefully a (bad) joke...
Pfeww... I just wanted to say, in a funny way, that if people here are
quite emotional (about the pirate stuff) they may better spend some of their
emotions with their girlfriend, cause she may very welcome it. I failed, I
guess.
 

Chaos

Member
This looks interesting from GDC -

Scroll Back: The Theory and Practice of Cameras in Side-Scrollers

"Join indie designer Itay Keren (upcoming title Mushroom 11, IGF 2014 finalist) as he explores the camera techniques used from the classic side-scrollers of the 1980s through the indie games of today, demonstrating how camera work should be tailored to the game's unique mechanics and characteristics. With lessons learned from film, neurology and dozens of games (including his own), he will show how to apply an effective, smooth and almost unnoticeable camera motion in your own game. "

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022243/Scroll-Back-The-Theory-and

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iNSQIyNpVGHeak6isbP6AHdHD50gs8MNXF1GCf08efg/pub
 

Dynamite Shikoku

Congratulations, you really deserve it!
I try to keep a more charitable view of people who pirate my own stuff. I kinda doubt they are people with steady jobs. Probably a large percentage are just teenagers. And you're not getting the money from pirates, but you are getting the exposure. More people are playing your game, talking about it, and knowing who you are.
 
I try to keep a more charitable view of people who pirate my own stuff. I kinda doubt they are people with steady jobs. Probably a large percentage are just teenagers. And you're not getting the money from pirates, but you are getting the exposure. More people are playing your game, talking about it, and knowing who you are.
Negative. I'm quite sure most pirates can pay for games just fine and the exposure isnt word of mouth, its called seeding.
 

Ito

Member
This looks interesting from GDC -

Scroll Back: The Theory and Practice of Cameras in Side-Scrollers

"Join indie designer Itay Keren (upcoming title Mushroom 11, IGF 2014 finalist) as he explores the camera techniques used from the classic side-scrollers of the 1980s through the indie games of today, demonstrating how camera work should be tailored to the game's unique mechanics and characteristics. With lessons learned from film, neurology and dozens of games (including his own), he will show how to apply an effective, smooth and almost unnoticeable camera motion in your own game. "

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022243/Scroll-Back-The-Theory-and

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iNSQIyNpVGHeak6isbP6AHdHD50gs8MNXF1GCf08efg/pub

Thank you so much for this! It sure was an interesting read.

Totally recommended if you're making a sidescroller!
 

trudeaudm

Neo Member
YESS!! Nomad Fleet has been greenlit after 20 days full of anxiety!



Now I only need to finish it.

EDIT: holy shit! I just checked and this was a huge batch of games greenlit... well, I'm still happy.

Congrats! Do you mind saying how many yes/no votes you had? I am interested in the stats because I just launched my green light campaign.
 

Jobbs

Banned
From you experience, some interesting ways to follow to reward the people who
aren't pirating your game?



Pfeww... I just wanted to say, in a funny way, that if people here are
quite emotional (about the pirate stuff) they may better spend some of their
emotions with their girlfriend, cause she may very welcome it. I failed, I
guess.

Well, the rational response to pirates is "fuck pirates".. These people think they are entitled and place value on nothing when it comes to software. They don't believe it's worth paying for since they can get it without paying for it. As Joe said, they'll pirate a humble bundle rather than pay $1.00. There is no way to convert such a person.
 

EDarkness

Member
Throwing up a new screen of one of the new areas in my game. I think this one turned out pretty cool.


As for this piracy discussion, I'm in the camp that there's no way to stop people from doing it. It sucks hardcore, but what can be done outside of DRM stuff or doing some kind of F2P or online gating? People will steal because they can and are cheap as hell.

I just hope that when my game comes out people will buy or at least donate a few dollars to the cause if they liked it. I guess we'll see next year.
 
Well that's your view. But accounting for lost sales from pirates when budgeting your devkits or whatever is not a good way to go.
I wasn't counting or budgeting on anything. I was throwing a hypothetical which would have helped a ton. I also consider piracy to be theft since someone is taking something they should be paying for, without paying for it. 0s and 1s or not, that's theft. Hell I wasn't expecting as many sales as I have had, that's beside the point though.
 

Lautaro

Member
Congrats! Do you mind saying how many yes/no votes you had? I am interested in the stats because I just launched my green light campaign.

Mmm, yeah I guess there's no benefit to hide it:


As you can see these numbers are not really impressive, I didn't even make it to the TOP 100 because I didn't had any big indie site covering me nor made any bundle promotion to get more votes.

And yet still get greenlit so I gotta say that the process seems to be pretty arbitrary (if you need more proof of that you can check https://greenlightupdates.com/ and see that some projects get greenlit in a few days while others wait months) so worrying about the votes seems to be counterproductive.
 

missile

Member
Initially I wanted to ask the following question; "Who has ever pirated a game
in his life?" But then I thought "better not", because it wouldn't make much
sense to wast so many posts on OT2.

So I'm going to ask the opposite; who has never pirated a game, or for that
matter never pirated any software in his whole life?

Going by the statistics you can roughly imagine how many people can answer
the question positive.

So whom we are talking about when we speak of the pirates? Well, I guess you
will be surprise to find out that these are people like you and me. This will
put a face to all those "assholes", "irrational", "brainless", "illogical"
acting people. Well, perhaps you may have to say all this stuff to your close
friends you care so much about (also on the net, in communities, or in here),
or even to yourself.

The rational? Pointing fingers to people and saying all these meaningless
things doesn't help the slightest. Further. It becomes only possible to say
"fuck pirates" while making reference to a fuzzy group, teH pirates. People
love to categorize people and start a haterage. It's so easy. The Pirates!
They are the problem! c'mon...
 

Jobbs

Banned
Initially I wanted to ask the following question; "Who has ever pirated a game
in his life?" But then I thought "better not", because it wouldn't make much
sense to wast so many posts on OT2.

So I'm going to ask the opposite; who has never pirated a game, or for that
matter never pirated any software in his whole life?

Going by the statistics you can roughly imagine how many people can answer
the question positive.

So whom we are talking about when we speak of the pirates? Well, I guess you
will be surprise to find out that these are people like you and me. This will
put a face to all those "assholes", "irrational", "brainless", "illogical"
acting people. Well, perhaps you may have to say all this stuff to your close
friends you care so much about (also on the net, in communities, or in here),
or even to yourself.

The rational? Pointing fingers to people and saying all these meaningless
things doesn't help the slightest. Further. It becomes only possible to say
"fuck pirates" while making reference to a fuzzy group, teH pirates. People
love to categorize people and start a haterage. It's so easy. The Pirates!
They are the problem! c'mon...

Unless you count nes/snes/etc roms, which I used to be involved with when I was younger (I don't even bother with roms nowadays, since i like to own the physical cartridge, and collecting those is part of the fun of it), I don't believe I've ever pirated a video game, or else for some reason I'm just not remembering. I didn't know this made me so strange. It could be a lack of initiative/cleverness rather than any moral superiority, but it's just not a world I have ever wanted to be involved in. Torrents, cracks, hacks, all of it has always felt a bit unfamiliar as well as "icky" to me. "Warez", anything with a Z on it, shady websites -- It's all just a bunch of gross shit I've never wanted to be involved with.

A few months ago I paid $30 for fraps, which is one of the most easily pirated things on the face of the earth. That may be the first $30 those guys ever made!

Anyway, I don't know where this is all headed. If someone steals from me, they may be a person who has good and bad qualities, like any of us, but it's still a person I'm going to be unhappy with, and I don't think there's anything we can do about it. Adding a note to the game asking people to please not pirate it won't make any difference. I'm not sure what else you could be suggesting.
 

missile

Member
Well, the rational response to pirates is "fuck pirates".. These people think they are entitled and place value on nothing when it comes to software. ....
I don't think so. I think the pirates are a very fuzzy set of people. Many
of them may also have bought games, software, tools worth of hundreds
of dollars, yet may not have bought every game, every software, or tool they
have or have used. In my teens I didn't knew anyone who had a legit copy of,
for example, Photoshop or 3D Studio. We wanted to make cool graphics, didn't
had the money etc. Friend of mine become an artist, has built a company, and
has now put thousands of dollars into Adobe.
 

taku

Member
I think it's as missile is saying, it's very easy to blame a group of nondescript people but ones you realize that they're just regular people I think the perspective changes a bit.
One issue with pirating is that stealing a non-physical product just doesn't feel as tactile and "real" as actually stealing something physical.

I just think it's a tough subject to discuss in a world where pretty much everyone expects online content to be completely free. That said, I wouldn't want our game to be pirated either..
 

Jobbs

Banned
I think it's as missile is saying, it's very easy to blame a group of nondescript people but ones you realize that they're just regular people I think the perspective changes a bit.
One issue with pirating is that stealing a non-physical product just doesn't feel as tactile and "real" as actually stealing something physical.

I just think it's a tough subject to discuss in a world where pretty much everyone expects online content to be completely free. That said, I wouldn't want our game to be pirated either..

This is what I've been saying a few times now... There's a type of person who just doesn't value something if it's virtual, and it's just not in their MO to consider paying for it. If we're trying to be solutiony and constructive as some of you have suggested -- I don't know that it's ever possible to convert pirates. But if it is possible, I'd love to hear specifics.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
This is what I've been saying a few times now... There's a type of person who just doesn't value something if it's virtual, and it's just not in their MO to consider paying for it. If we're trying to be solutiony and constructive as some of you have suggested -- I don't know that it's ever possible to convert pirates. But if it is possible, I'd love to hear specifics.

Well, first you have to accept that a certain segment will never be converted. They'll find some imagined slight to justify pirating something. Write those people off, because there is nothing you can do about it. That's the group you seem most concerned with. Stop. You can't do shit about them, so fretting and trying to "beat" them is just going to cause you pain.

The second group are pirates of opportunity. Meaning, they're pirating something because it's easy to do so. If your game is entirely DRM free and you don't make efforts to send takedown notices to torrent sites, this is one way to pick them up. They can still be converted. Make your game easy to find, download and patch. Keep engaged with the community when issues come up. You may not eliminate them all, but you will cut down on them substantially.

The third group are pirates of non-convenience. These people pirate something they want because they can't easily get it legitimately. Region locks, using only one distribution service, using restrictive DRM, not accepting PayPal/Amazon/etc, or not having a web site that is international-friendly. (You won't believe how many sites require phone numbers and addresses, but are only formatted for Americans). How do you fight them? Make your product as easily accessible as is feasible. This is how iTunes, Netflix, Spotify, Amazon etc captured markets that were threatened by piracy. They didn't eliminate it, and neither can you, but you can affect it.

The fourth group are pirates of pricing. They may not be able, or willing, to afford your price tag. This one is difficult, because old logic says "well, they can save up and buy it." That's true, but a person with looser morals and internet access doesn't see it that way. This is often a bleed over from the first group, but it can be combated. Check your initial price point and be honest with yourself about how much Indie Game 5,390,390,212 should cost. Offer sales. Add value through free expansions or add-ons.

The fifth group is more overarching, in my mind. These are pirates of displeasure. They pirate things because they dislike the personality driving something they might have otherwise purchased. Phil Fish comes to mind. These guys can often be confused with the first segment, but generally speaking, you can win these folks over by not being a raging asshole. Don't talk shit about prospective buyers. Don't try to sell preorders before the game comes out. Don't offer the moon and deliver a moon pie. Be honest when you fuck up. Don't be racist/sexist/shitty on Twitter.

Finally, there are the try before you buy" pirates. They're simple. Offer a demo, or at least a lengthy let's play before release. Just remember that in today's crowded field, you're not special. Yes, you put a lot of work into your game, but so did the hundreds of the thousands of others offering indie games. Make yourself stand out. Give the player some good indication that you're not just full of wishful thinking and carefully edited game footage.

There are more segments of pirates out there, but these are the main groups, in my mind.
 

Dynamite Shikoku

Congratulations, you really deserve it!
I don't think so. I think the pirates are a very fuzzy set of people. Many
of them may also have bought games, software, tools worth of hundreds
of dollars, yet may not have bought every game, every software, or tool they
have or have used. In my teens I didn't knew anyone who had a legit copy of,
for example, Photoshop or 3D Studio. We wanted to make cool graphics, didn't
had the money etc. Friend of mine become an artist, has built a company, and
has now put thousands of dollars into Adobe.

Very true
 

Jobbs

Banned
I wonder how well a "pay whatever you want" pricing structure would play out. At least people wouldn't be pirating it (that said, they probably would still be pirating it).
 
From you experience, some interesting ways to follow to reward the people who
aren't pirating your game?

Sorry man, there's no magic bullet out there - its all contextual.
I can't even say a long tail of post-release content patching guarantees equivalent and greater long-tail sales, because sometimes its just throwing good money after bad at a product the world is mostly indifferent to.

you are getting the exposure.

Exposure is a hugely double-edged sword.
Particularly for indies who are far more likely to be working in niche or marginal genres.

There is no way to convert such a person.

There's no way to convert all of the people, but there are ways to convert some of the peoples.

If you can lower a piracy rate from 99% to 97%, yeah, you still have insanely high levels of piracy, but you've also just tripled your actual sales, the metric that really does equate to you making a living.


what can be done outside of DRM stuff or doing some kind of F2P or online gating?

I'd suggest you can learn from F2P games - and as an indie learn from the more ethical F2P games rather than the obnoxiously shitty ones - and apply some of those practices yourself, because your game is likely to be - whether you want it to be or not - F2P for a large number of people if you're releasing on PC or mobile / tablet.

So one way of looking at that is that people who pay sticker price for your game are people who just bought a microtransaction from you.
So what should that microtransaction entail?
The same stuff as the pirates get, and the warm moral glow that they did the right thing?
Or maybe you could roadmap that out, and say, "well, I'll do 10 free content patches, one a month for the next year, and of those, I'll do 3 'fun but trivial', 3 'changes existing systems', 3 'brand new feature' and 1 'major content drop' and then set myself up to sell an expansion in a years time which will follow a similar roadmap".
You've just told all of your legitimate customers they have ~a years worth of free stuff coming their way included in that sticker price, ranging from trivial to major, but you've also made it so that pirates have to go search for and redownload your game every month if they want the latest version.

I mean, like I say, there's no magic bullet, and its a lot harder to continue doing free post-launch content for a singleplayer game as each content drop is a lot more work for a lot less return, and trivial cosmetics don't have the same prestige value as they do in multiplayer titles.

I wonder how well a "pay whatever you want" pricing structure would play out. At least people wouldn't be pirating it (that said, they probably would still be pirating it).

"Pay what you want" pricing is one of the underlying elements of the F2P model; when people talk about Whales, they're not just talking about people who are hopelessly addicted (again, in unethical F2P systems) - they can also be talking about people who genuinely love your game and really want to pay to support it.
 

Minamu

Member
Does anyone know if Microsoft has a built-in leaderboard system on Windows Phone? And some sort of ad support? We're currently using AdMob in Unity and my programmer said that won't work on anything but Android.
 

Dynamite Shikoku

Congratulations, you really deserve it!
Does anyone know if Microsoft has a built-in leaderboard system on Windows Phone? And some sort of ad support? We're currently using AdMob in Unity and my programmer said that won't work on anything but Android.

I've used admob on iOS. Pretty sure you'd be able to use it on Windows phones too.
 
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