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GAF spricht Deutsch, zumindest hier drinnen...

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P

Pennywise

Member
Milchjon said:
What I'm trying to say is that a) there's a significant difference between hypotheticals ("If Germans were allowed to vote out immigrants, the results might be the same/worse") and results of actual, real-life, it-happened-people-did-it-you-can-count-the-votes-on-physical-pieces-of-paper political actions. (what happened in Switzerland)
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I seriously doubt that.

Mal ganz davon abgesehen, dass dies der Grund ist warum ich Volksentscheide für Unsinn halte (ein Großteil ist einfach nicht Informiert), kann man diese Situationen nicht miteinander vergleichen.
In Deutschland ist ein großteil der Probleme die diesen latenten Rassismus zu Tage bringen nämlich hausgemacht.
Man hat bei der Integration mehr als einmal gepennt und darf halt immernoch mit den Folgen leben.
Bei den Schweizern liegen die Probleme in vielen anderen Bereichen, besonders wenn man sich halt die Ergebnisse ansieht, WO wer gewählt hat, deswegen sind diese Volksentscheide auch einfach Bullshit, ein großteil der Wähler hat einfach nicht das passende Hintergrundwissen...
Wird sicherlich auch genug Xenophobie geben, aber viele sind auch einfach Planlos.
 
G

Glasshole

Banned
Glasshole said:
By the way, to whomever asked, did you do your research yet? The pharmaceutical industry, the medical and technological research, and chemical industry say hi. I'm just spitballing here. And, you know, fuck ABB
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Dutch Patriot said:
I've lived in Switserland for almost a month. I've had 2 statistics courses, so I know that that is a large enough sample size.

Either way, thanks for the correction. A well educated, non-pretty man like yourself must be busy, so for you to take your time to tell me absolutly nothing is an honor.
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1.) Almost a month? You must be an expert on the matter. Also, read the post, I continued my answer to you above. I was in NL once, I know everything about it. I even know what "suavle" is, or however you write it.

2.) Re-read your post, you called me pretty. I took the liberty of making fun of your incapability to write correct sentences. Also, it's Switzerland.

You're right about one thing though: You should feel honored. You never know who's sitting behind a screen.
 
G

Glasshole

Banned
Rufus said:
You all look like assholes right now but you take the cake, guy. Could you be any more condescending?
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If I weren't wearing Google Glass, dictating my answers, I'd be wearing my monocle. That appearance alone should do the trick.

Okay Glass, Submit. No. Delete Line. Submit Reply. Submit. Oh fuck this I'll do it myself you stupid piece of
 
M

Milchjon

Member
Glasshole said:
a.) Not as much a gap as you think there is. Say, the NPD wants to send all foreigners home. Well, they haven't done it, so they can't be that bad.
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Well, the NPD had a whopping 1.5% of the votes at the last general election. The AfD, which I guess would be a little more comparable to the SVP, had 4.7%. So yes, it is very much a hypothetical, considering the way our political system is set up.

Glasshole said:
b.) "You suck too"?
What are you talking about? Have you seen me be apologetic about this whole matter? I stand behind what Switzerland has done. Doesn't mean I can't show anyone their place when they criticize the voting / get them off their high horse. You use the word xenophobe, I'll darn well use it against you.
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Okidoke, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on a pretty fundamental level. I'm just not really willing to give the Swiss that voted yes a real benefit of doubt when it comes to the motivation behind this when it comes after the votes on minarets and asylum seekers.

Apologies to what I assume is a pretty significant minority, if not majority, of Swiss people that opposed this stuff.
 
G

Glasshole

Banned
Milchjon said:
Well, the NPD had a whopping 1.5% of the votes at the last general election. The AfD, which I guess would be a little more comparable to the SVP, had 4.7%. So yes, it is very much a hypothetical, considering the way our political system is set up.



Okidoke, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on a pretty fundamental level. I'm just not really willing to give the Swiss that voted yes a real benefit of doubt when it comes to the motivation behind this when it comes after the votes on minarets and asylum seekers.

Apologies to what I assume is a pretty significant minority, if not majority, of Swiss people that opposed this stuff.
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1.) The example was maybe bad, but I meant the NPD in general. Not considering their electorate ratings.

2.) We agree to disagree.

However, you really should give them the benefit of doubt. You don't know what kind of bizarre setpieces this campaign has had. Switzerland has been downright threatened by the EU and MNEs to not say yes to the initiative - they haven't been doing themselves a favor. The tone wasn't cautious or respectful, it was aggressive. Our own government had told us that the yearly immigration would be around 8000 people a year - whereas in reality, it would be tenfold. The infrastructure north of Zurich has come to a breakdown, traffic is often at standstil, the borders have hours long waiting times and traffic for which the costums had not been built due to german workers that live abroad but work in CH, it gets progressively worse from month to month, the housing market in Bodensee is flooded with German demand driving prices up (due to the proximity to Germany, which German expatriates apparently want), the whole canton of Tessin (Ticino) is having a huge problem with salary dumping due to italian workers (70% yes in that canton btw) and you judge these people for voting yes? Do you think have the right to do that?

You cannot have the people suffer negative consequences and then threaten them, adding insult to injury. The EU already has the image of an undemocratic bureaucracy monster, and the shit they're pulling doesn't help.
 
D

Dutch Gronk

Banned
Glasshole said:
1.) Almost a month? You must be an expert on the matter. Also, read the post, I continued my answer to you above. I was in NL once, I know everything about it. I even know what "suavle" is, or however you write it.

2.) Re-read your post, you called me pretty. I took the liberty of making fun of your incapability to write correct sentences. Also, it's Switzerland.

You're right about one thing though: You should feel honored. You never know who's sitting behind a screen.
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I'm an expert on most things. I also know that when people like you start making remarks about spelling and grammar is the point where you are truly lost.

But go ahead, please, make fun of my spelling atop your little high horse. The Swiss elitism really rubbed off on you during your stay there.

Great stuff and thanks for proving my point.

DEUCES!
 
P

Pennywise

Member
Glasshole said:
The infrastructure north of Zurich has come to a breakdown, traffic is often at standstil, the borders have hours long waiting times and traffic for which the costums had not been built due to german workers that live abroad but work in CH, it gets progressively worse from month to month
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Kinda suprising that 11 of 12 areas voted against it then :p
 
G

Glasshole

Banned
Dutch Patriot said:
I'm an expert on most things. I also know that when people like you start making remarks about spelling and grammar is the point where you are truly lost.

But go ahead, please, make fun of my spelling atop your little high horse. The Swiss elitism really rubbed off on you during your stay there.

Great stuff and thanks for proving my point.

DEUCES!
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Doesn't make any sense, but there goes my image of the dutch. I always thought they had a good sense of humour. The ones I have met were funny blokes though.

Please don't pretend to know who I am, because you have no clue. I've been very vocal about my critique regarding Switzerland. People on GAF that know me IRL could confirm.

However, I will defend Switzerland wherever I see fit. And as I have stated before, I will defend it against a senseless bashing due to its presence in the spotlight.

You particularly, Dutch Patriot, have showed some considerably racist attitude toward the Swiss, generalizing them in one sentence. Whatever I have done, it won't be objectively worse than how you have been.

Pennywise said:
Kinda suprising that 11 of 12 areas voted against it then :p
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I said the infrastructure north of Zurich, not Zürcher Unterland or whatever. Schaffhausen, for example, said yes, iirc. Interestingly, Kloten, one of the areas with the highest foreigner quotas, said yes as well.
 
M

Milchjon

Member
Dutch Patriot is good people and has shown that for a long time. I mean, he's a Dutchie that can handle socializing with Germans. And you definitely need a sense of humor for that.
 
D

Dutch Gronk

Banned
My god.

Probably never crossed your mind that I was in no way serious when this all started? But fine, go ahead and call me a racist. Maybe call for backup to really get your point across?

Also, because of me your entire opinion of the Dutch people changed?! RACISM!

Condescending asshat.

Again, sorry Germans, I'll stay out of your stuff for now.
 
M

Milchjon

Member
Uh oh, what have I done.

Well, uh, did anyone get this weird Gold Medal BahnCard thing?

A friend tried to push me to get one, and I kinda regret that I didn't.
 
G

Glasshole

Banned
Dutch Patriot said:
My god.

Probably never crossed your mind that I was in no way serious when this all started? But fine, go ahead and call me a racist. Maybe call for backup to really get your point across?

Also, because of me your entire opinion of the Dutch people changed?! RACISM!

Condescending asshat.

Again, sorry Germans, I'll stay out of your stuff for now.
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Interesting. So racism is a laughing matter to you?

"Condescending" is a word the vocally weak use when they run out of arguments.

The asshat I will take though. Haven't heard that one in a while. Also, is it "suavle" or "swavle" ? I only know how to pronounce it.
 
D

Dutch Gronk

Banned
Glasshole said:
Interesting. So racism is a laughing matter to you?

"Condescending" is a word the vocally weak use when they run out of arguments.

The asshat I will take though. Haven't heard that one in a while. Also, is it "suavle" or "swavle" ? I only know how to pronounce it.
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Yes, racism is a laughing matter to me. Never heard of Zwarte Piet? This entire country is founded on racism.

Again with the 'vocally weak'. Maybe check my spelling a bit more as well, just to be sure you haven't missed anything.
 
S

systemfehler

Member
Rassismus, EU Abkommen und erhitzte Gemüter und ich kann nur an die Zombiehorden von Schweizern denken, die am Wochenende die Fleischtheken über der Grenze plündern. Damit wird dann wohl auch bald Schluss sein. Dann halt wieder Migros zum 2? 3? 4? fachen Preis...
 
G

Glasshole

Banned
systemfehler said:
Rassismus, EU Abkommen und erhitzte Gemüter und ich kann nur an die Zombiehorden von Schweizern denken, die am Wochenende die Fleischtheken über der Grenze plündern. Damit wird dann wohl auch bald Schluss sein. Dann halt wieder Migros zum 2? 3? 4? fachen Preis...
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Preise haben sich seit der Krise angepasst. Ich wusste gar nicht, dass Leute immernoch auf Jestetten fahren.
 
T

Tash

Member
On the topic of generalization: Can we please keep in mind that Switzerland was pretty much split about this decision. It's not like 80% of the voters voted yes..It doesn't change the fact what the actual result of the votes was but it's so typically human to talk about "The Swiss" and "Switzerland". Most of my friends (including me if I had been back home and voted) voted "no". Just saying.

Also, I think it's dangerous for anyone NOT living there and NOT being directly involved in every day life to comment so harshly about the situation.

What's also interesting is that Switzerland has been used as a golden example for voting and living together for a long time and now that there was an actual difficult decision and people consider the vote wrong, all of a sudden the whole system is being bad, wrong and horrible. Just a bit more food for thought on how non Swiss react to stuff.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Tash said:
Also, I think it's dangerous for anyone NOT living there and NOT being directly involved in every day life to comment so harshly about the situation.
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Remember this next time American politics come up in conversation and realize this feeling exists across most boundaries.
 
W

Wrayfield

Member
Tash said:
Also, I think it's dangerous for anyone NOT living there and NOT being directly involved in every day life to comment so harshly about the situation.
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Not sure I agree. How long is long enough to be entitled to an opinion? I'm asking because I lived in Switzerland for a year, but even if I haven't, I would still like to voice my opinion. I get the harshly bit, but that's also debatable in so far as what can be perceived as harsh by individuals.

WanderingWind said:
Remember this next time American politics come up in conversation and realize this feeling exists across most boundaries.
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Pretty much same applies to the US. I'm there fairly regularly, does that entitle me to say something harsh about US politics? And when will you be able to say something about Angie and her fuck-ups now that you live here? I would like to think that you can judge even from afar and form your own opinion.

@Googleglasshole :p

I think you came across rather aggressive but your point about direct democracy is a very interesting one. When we let the public decide, we shouldn't be surprised if our voice is drowned in that of masses who might be uneducated or simply wrong or manipulated, at least in our opinion. Unfortunately, I'm with you on this: If such a voting happened in Germany, political systems aside, I wouldn't be surprised if it passed. Entire elections "auf Länderebene" have been won on subtle and less subtle xenophobic messages. :( I just think we need to be more critical of our own countries than pointing fingers.

PS: Swiss cheese > Dutch cheese; Swiss ladies < Dutch ladies </generalization>
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Wrayfield said:
Not sure I agree. How long is long enough to be entitled to an opinion? I'm asking because I lived in Switzerland for a year, but even if I haven't, I would still like to voice my opinion. I get the harshly bit, but that's also debatable in so far as what can be perceived as harsh by individuals.



Pretty much same applies to the US. I'm there fairly regularly, does that entitle me to say something harsh about US politics? And when will you be able to say something about Angie and her fuck-ups now that you live here? I would like to think that you can judge even from afar and form your own opinion.
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Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but opinions without a basis of knowledge are, by definition, ignorant. It's easy to sit in judgement of how cultures do certain things if you have no idea of how the culture actually operates. The amount of crazy shit people believe about other countries really solidifies the more you travel. You can get knowledge without firsthand experience, but I'm of the opinion that when dealing with cultural issues, one really needs to be a part of that culture, or at least have been immersed in that culture for a period of time exceeding that of a vacation stay, in order to have a strong position from which to argue from.

That goes for me and what I think of the Swiss's decision. I have my opinion, but I don't know shit about Swiss culture. A ton of people talking shit about the move don't either, but they're viewing the move through the lens of how their culture views the move. It'd be like Americans telling you that you all need guns because our Constitution puts that position forth as one that supports individual rights.
 
S

systemfehler

Member
Glasshole said:
Preise haben sich seit der Krise angepasst. Ich wusste gar nicht, dass Leute immernoch auf Jestetten fahren.
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Ähm nicht wirklich, außer natürlich man verdient jenseits der 4000&#8364;/Monat. Sonst finde ich 8-10&#8364; für nen Kebap oder 4&#8364; für eine Dose Bier unverschämt teuer. Aber mir soll es egal sein, ich glaube nur" kurz-, mittel-, und langfristig wird sich die Schweiz mit dieser "Politik dadurch mehr Probleme einbrocken als "lösen". Rosinen picken wird sich nämlich nicht spielen...

Edit: On that "Who can argue on what" topic. I comment on everything I want and feel that I have understood the problem, topic, etc. well enough to contribute. Nobody needs to be from Austria to talk about a certain right-wing party here. So wether I lived 1 month in Switzerland or over 2 decades near the Swiss border when I am think I am able to contribute I do that. Like in this case.
 
W

Wrayfield

Member
El Idiota said:
You know what? Of all the stupid things I could see our population vote on, I think this is actually something that wouldn't pass, no matter how much xenophobia there is here.
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I truly hope that my pessimistic view is wrong and your view right.

WanderingWind said:
Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but opinions without a basis of knowledge are, by definition, ignorant. It's easy to sit in judgement of how cultures do certain things if you have no idea of how the culture actually operates. The amount of crazy shit people believe about other countries really solidifies the more you travel. You can get knowledge without firsthand experience, but I'm of the opinion that when dealing with cultural issues, one really needs to be a part of that culture, or at least have been immersed in that culture for a period of time exceeding that of a vacation stay, in order to have a strong position from which to argue from.

That goes for me and what I think of the Swiss's decision. I have my opinion, but I don't know shit about Swiss culture. A ton of people talking shit about the move don't either, but they're viewing the move through the lens of how their culture views the move. It'd be like Americans telling you that you all need guns because our Constitution puts that position forth as one that supports individual rights.
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The amount of time I argued the 2nd Amendment with European friends, I couldn't agree more with you. It's a brilliant example but would derail the whole discussion here. I think judgments are often used as opinions. There is a huge difference here.

I wish more people would be like you and Tosh and think twice if they know enough before they say something they based on an article or a few Stammtisch discussions, or god forbid, a GAF thread. Switzerland is close to home, so it is a big issue for Germans.

My main issue in a nutshell, and it lies in the nature of man, as soon as one discusses a different country/culture, one automatically sets values that are sooo often based subjectively and with so much emotion that it makes for a very poor discussion. It quickly becomes a reverse dick measuring like, to simplify it, "Who is more xenophobic, Switzerland or Germany?".

The discussion, in my opinion, should be: Does direct democracy work or do you get more than you wished for? Can it be misused by spewing out polarising opinions to the masses, especially by extremist parties? Should the voting be changed to a 2/3 majority? (I know, kinda defies the whole idea of directly voting, but let's call it the "dumbed down masses Factor".)

More importantly: How do you prevent that from happening somewhere else? I think most here agree that such a vote is a dangerous signal in Europe. Not the only one, mind, but Tebow have mercy, it's just across the border here. So yeah, we need to talk about it.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Wrayfield said:
I truly hope that my pessimistic view is wrong and your view right.



The amount of time I argued the 2nd Amendment with European friends, I couldn't agree more with you. It's a brilliant example but would derail the whole discussion here. I think judgments are often used as opinions. There is a huge difference here.

I wish more people would be like you and Tosh and think twice if they know enough before they say something they based on an article or a few Stammtisch discussions, or god forbid, a GAF thread. Switzerland is close to home, so it is a big issue for Germans.

My main issue in a nutshell, and it lies in the nature of man, as soon as one discusses a different country/culture, one automatically sets values that are sooo often based subjectively and with so much emotion that it makes for a very poor discussion. It quickly becomes a reverse dick measuring like, to simplify it, "Who is more xenophobic, Switzerland or Germany?".

The discussion, in my opinion, should be: Does direct democracy work or do you get more than you wished for? Can it be misused by spewing out polarising opinions to the masses, especially by extremist parties? Should the voting be changed to a 2/3 majority? (I know, kinda defies the whole idea of directly voting, but let's call it the "dumbed down masses Factor".)

More importantly: How do you prevent that from happening somewhere else? I think most here agree that such a vote is a dangerous signal in Europe. Not the only one, mind, but Tebow have mercy, it's just across the border here. So yeah, we need to talk about it.
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Agreed. Discussion is fantastic, judgement based on no actual experience or knowledge is not.

For instance, if my home country moved to a direct democracy, I shudder to think what it'd look like. The tyranny of the masses is a real thing. Homosexuals and other minorities would have an incredibly rough time.
 
D

Deleted member 98878

Unconfirmed Member
Milchjon said:
Uh oh, what have I done.

Well, uh, did anyone get this weird Gold Medal BahnCard thing?

A friend tried to push me to get one, and I kinda regret that I didn't.
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Ich bereue es mittlerweile auch. Aber dann denke ich mir auch wieder, dass es sich für mich wohl doch nicht gelohnt hätte. So oft fahr ich dann doch nicht Zug und wenn dann hauptsächlich ÖBB. Aber die Möglichkeit gratis zu fahren, hätte mich schon gereizt, falls ich mal spontan nach z.B. München will.

Und um das Ganze hier ein bisschen aufzulockern:

Masseiwanderig kurz erklärt

Darüber konnte zumindest ich lachen.
 
S

systemfehler

Member
Flips360 said:
Ich bereue es mittlerweile auch. Aber dann denke ich mir auch wieder, dass es sich für mich wohl doch nicht gelohnt hätte. So oft fahr ich dann doch nicht Zug und wenn dann hauptsächlich ÖBB. Aber die Möglichkeit gratis zu fahren, hätte mich schon gereizt, falls ich mal spontan nach z.B. München will.

Und um das Ganze hier ein bisschen aufzulockern:

Masseiwanderig kurz erklärt

Darüber konnte zumindest ich lachen.
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Wenns nicht spontan sein muss ÖBB -> Sparschiene! The poor mans guide to first class tickets.
 
D

Deleted member 98878

Unconfirmed Member
Muss ich irgendwann mal probieren, wenn ich mal alleine fahre. Bisher hatten wir immer das Einfach-Raus-Ticket.
 
T

Tash

Member
WanderingWind said:
Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but opinions without a basis of knowledge are, by definition, ignorant. It's easy to sit in judgement of how cultures do certain things if you have no idea of how the culture actually operates. The amount of crazy shit people believe about other countries really solidifies the more you travel. You can get knowledge without firsthand experience, but I'm of the opinion that when dealing with cultural issues, one really needs to be a part of that culture, or at least have been immersed in that culture for a period of time exceeding that of a vacation stay, in order to have a strong position from which to argue from.

That goes for me and what I think of the Swiss's decision. I have my opinion, but I don't know shit about Swiss culture. A ton of people talking shit about the move don't either, but they're viewing the move through the lens of how their culture views the move. It'd be like Americans telling you that you all need guns because our Constitution puts that position forth as one that supports individual rights.
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That is much better put than I could have :)
I don't mean that people aren't entitled to their opinions. Of course you are allowed to have such but it's incredibly dangerous to assume things only able to pull from your own background and experience.

Wrayfield said:
My main issue in a nutshell, and it lies in the nature of man, as soon as one discusses a different country/culture, one automatically sets values that are sooo often based subjectively and with so much emotion that it makes for a very poor discussion. It quickly becomes a reverse dick measuring like, to simplify it, "Who is more xenophobic, Switzerland or Germany?".

The discussion, in my opinion, should be: Does direct democracy work or do you get more than you wished for? Can it be misused by spewing out polarising opinions to the masses, especially by extremist parties? Should the voting be changed to a 2/3 majority? (I know, kinda defies the whole idea of directly voting, but let's call it the "dumbed down masses Factor".)

More importantly: How do you prevent that from happening somewhere else? I think most here agree that such a vote is a dangerous signal in Europe. Not the only one, mind, but Tebow have mercy, it's just across the border here. So yeah, we need to talk about it.
Click to expand...

Very well said.
 
G

GunslingerVit

Banned
Extra3:

eWPMNBS.jpg
 
B

berg ark

Member
Hallo! Ich bin Schwedisch, aber ich habe Deutsch gelernt fur drei jahre. Jetzt werde ich nochmal starten. Meine frage: weiss jemand ob es einen Podcast gibt - auf Deutsch. Ein guter Podcast, den Sie gerade hören, wie die Literatur, Film, Nachrichten, Fernsehen, Kunst und so weiter enthalten kann.
 
G

GunslingerVit

Banned
Check out Deutschlandfunk (DLF) and WDR Radio, especially WDR 5 for culture, literature, news, and politics. They have a lot of podcast and often audio drama/radio play for free download.
 
M

Milchjon

Member
Die "Aufkündigung der familiären Bande" gegenüber erwachsenen Kindern sei noch keine "schwere Verfehlung", die zum Verlust des Unterhaltsanspruchs führe
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Uuh, was denn dann? Müssen Eltern erst handgreiflich werden?

BRB, gonna have some children to stash somewhere far away as a backup solution for when my pension inevitably fails to live up to my needs.
 
S

sphinx

the piano man
Hallo alle :D

wisst ihr vielleicht von einer Interseite oder URL wo man den olympischen Spielen live folgen kann??? kostenlos, natürlich :p

vielen, vielen Dank.
 
R

raindoc

Member
2014
Die Zeugen Jehovas haben endlich die Schnauze voll und fragen gar nicht mehr, ob man reden will. Klopfen, Broschüre in die Hand drücken, verschwinden.
 
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