The One and Done
Member
Yup. She's ahead of her siblings now in the Great Game
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT PART 2| Season 6 - [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
- Start date
- Status
Yup. She's ahead of her siblings now in the Great Game
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Ehh Sansa told Jon to be careful and not fall for traps, which Jon proceeded to do right after. Had Jon not been a complete dumbass, he wouldn't have been in position to get killed 100 times but been in a solid defensive position, in which the Bolton army would have attacked.. then the Vale can attack and cause the same damage. The main reason Jon's army got so damaged is not because Sansa didn't tell him, it's because Jon is a dumbass (Jon is one of my favorite characters by the way).
Some of the posters here along with the writer of the article would get ned stark'd so quickly in the GOT world. He's right about the Arya scene though, that was awful writing and the huge black hole this season (most of her arc this season).
Also the whole i died and was brought back, because reasons.
Did you read the article? Sansa is the one that convinced Jon to attack Winterfell to save Rickon.
It's not a surprise that Jon would then do everything to save Rickon. The main reason he attacked Winterfell in the first place was to save Rickon.
If Jon thought like how Sansa does, he would have sent her right back into Ramsay's arms and focused on preparing for the White Walkers instead.
Mike Works
Member
I'm sure this has been answered, but where was Ghost during that battle?
wesleyshark
Banned
Sansa began to urge Jon to slow it down once a bunch of the Northern houses told them to shove off in joining them to take back Winterfell. As their assumed allies began to back out or not even show, Sansa realized the gravity of their plight- Jon decided to keep pushing forward, allies and troop numbers be damned.
Did he brought with him or leave him in the Wall? Can't remmeber.
wesleyshark
Banned
Miguel Sapochnik was asked why we didn't see Ghost in Battle of the Bastards:
"[Ghost] was there in spades originally, but it's also an incredibly time consuming and expensive character to bring to life," the episode's director told Business Insider on Monday. "Ultimately we had to choose between Wun-Wun and the direwolf, so the dog bit the dust."
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
At the time she used Rickon as a tool to get where they needed to get. But she was right that he was a lost cause, esp with their army being outnumbered. No it's not a surprise that Jon would do everything to save Rickon, because it's not the first nor will it be the last time Jon does something completely fucking stupid. Your last statement makes zero sense. Sansa with her brother is taking back the North, which is needed to restore order and have a semblance of a chance of beating the WW. She just realized that Rickon is dead no matter what, which she was right. She warned not to do anything stupid, Jon says that's obvious and proceeds to do dumb move the next morning. If Jon thinks like Sansa, he would have stayed in position and let his brother die like he would have no matter what.
Urges Jon to save Winterfell and Rickon immediately after learning Ramsay has him, in an incredibly offensive letter threatening Sansa with rape again and goading Jon into battle, a Jon who is completely non-committal and seems unwilling to do anything and needs something, anything to convince him to commit -----> The night before the battle, after being frustrated at Jon's seeming resignation at losing, and planning that isn't taking into consideration Ramsay's true nature, she levels with Jon that Rickon is as good as dead, that any shenanigans involving him are sure to be a trap on Ramsay's part, and the best course of action for the imminent battle is to accept they probably won't be able to save him
As the entire group is about to embark on a journey around the North, Sansa sends Brienne to Riverrun to solicit the Blackfish's help in the battle, instead of sending a raven that could be captured and telegraph their plans at this early stage of amassing an army -----> After touring the entire north and finding support for their cause completely lacking and not providing the men they need, with a Jon that is resigned to fighting as soon as possible with the few men they have even if it is a lost cause, Sansa resorts to sending a raven to Littlefinger in the hope it will get to him in time, seeing no other option
Context and subtext matters. This stuff isn't that hard. I feel like it's way simpler than people are making it out to be.
Sansa stuff isn't that confusing if you understand that she's a character with flaws. Her scene with Littlefinger earlier in the season tells you everything you need to know. She doesn't want his help. She wants to prove she is capable in her own right. She feels gross that she has to resort to asking for his help. She stood her ground and told him off and dismantled him, and now she has to sheepishly come back with her tail between her legs. She doesn't want to share that with anyone because she feels incredibly conflicted and ashamed about it, AND she isn't even sure if he's going to show up anyways. I feel like anyone should be able to empathize with the feeling of being ashamed about a decision you've made, and feeling like if you share it with people they'll be disappointed in you and lecture you, even if that's not true. That feeling that if I tell Jon, he'll just get angry at me, or be disappointed in me, or dismiss me because I'm not a man. But that requires people put forth the effort of empathizing in the first place.
As the entire group is about to embark on a journey around the North, Sansa sends Brienne to Riverrun to solicit the Blackfish's help in the battle, instead of sending a raven that could be captured and telegraph their plans at this early stage of amassing an army -----> After touring the entire north and finding support for their cause completely lacking and not providing the men they need, with a Jon that is resigned to fighting as soon as possible with the few men they have even if it is a lost cause, Sansa resorts to sending a raven to Littlefinger in the hope it will get to him in time, seeing no other option
Context and subtext matters. This stuff isn't that hard. I feel like it's way simpler than people are making it out to be.
Sansa stuff isn't that confusing if you understand that she's a character with flaws. Her scene with Littlefinger earlier in the season tells you everything you need to know. She doesn't want his help. She wants to prove she is capable in her own right. She feels gross that she has to resort to asking for his help. She stood her ground and told him off and dismantled him, and now she has to sheepishly come back with her tail between her legs. She doesn't want to share that with anyone because she feels incredibly conflicted and ashamed about it, AND she isn't even sure if he's going to show up anyways. I feel like anyone should be able to empathize with the feeling of being ashamed about a decision you've made, and feeling like if you share it with people they'll be disappointed in you and lecture you, even if that's not true. That feeling that if I tell Jon, he'll just get angry at me, or be disappointed in me, or dismiss me because I'm not a man. But that requires people put forth the effort of empathizing in the first place.
Jon wanted to attack while weather conditions were favorable. He also realised that his army was as big as it was going to get.
Remember what last Season when Stannis attacked Winterfell? His entire army was freezing and starving. That's the issue that Jon was concerned about.
Waiting decreases his supplies and increases the chance of unfavorable weather conditions.
wesleyshark
Banned
If he thought like Sansa does then he would not have attacked Winterfell at all. He would have let Sansa do it on her own.
There's a reason that Ramsay Bolton said he's a part of her now.
Perhaps for you, a character that accepts their little brother for dead is someone worth rooting for.
It's fine to have that viewpoint but don't pretend to not understand why some viewers would dislike such a character.
Perhaps for you, a character that accepts their little brother for dead is someone worth rooting for.
It's fine to have that viewpoint but don't pretend to not understand why some viewers would dislike such a character.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
You can understand a character's motivations and still find them withholding vital info to be frustrating and impossibly dumb.
She was pushing Jon to attack as soon as possible for no grand reason other than she wanted revenge and Jon was the only instrument she had on the table to achieve that.
Then she started complaining that the force wasn't big enough because she was scared of losing and ending up back in Ramsay's hands.
So in a panic, she wrote to Littlefinger just like LF figured she would. Effectively handing LF the north since a Bolton requested the action it's not in rebellion to the crown.
Because she was ashamed of this and afraid of Jon's reaction, she opted to say nothing which skewed the planning. No great courage lies within Sansa.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Ehh you're wrong. Sansa is not a war general and leaving the battle to Jon, who the entire Wildling army stands behind makes sense. Had Jon not gone out there like an idiot, his army wouldn't have lost as many men and they would have destroyed the Boltons. But maybe there's an imaginary scenario where Jon has 0% of dying while taking down one of the biggest armies in Westeros with 0% chance of failure. I'd love to hear it. Enlighten us.
Nope, still not making sense, as illustrated by many, many articles already published.
LF came with a force visibly far more numerous than the 2k mounted lances Ramsay had.
Add the 3 to 4k Vale lances to the 2.5k Wildlings + misc, and at worst they would have had an equal force, with a giant and more mounted lances.
Anyways, it's certainly not "an obvious right choice" from Sansa, as discussed plenty already.
At best she was stupid or deeply untrusting of her brother (which he had done nothing to deserve), and at worst she was actively evil plotting to have the forces loyal to him mowed down before swooping in.
This last option is actually in line with the ideas LF has been trying to place in her mind to drive a wedge between Jon and her btw.
He might have "trying to save Rickon" in mind, but I do not think it is the main driver, nor why they are in a hurry.
Jon knows more than everyone that they need Winterfell back asap to mount a base to fight the WW.
With winter being here, huge snow storms are on the way which would make an assault on Winterfell nearly impossible.
Jon had probably written Rickon off at first, particularly after the first exchange, but seeing him running toward him and not doing anything was more than he could do.
Some might call it stupidity, I call it having a heart.
Notice that he did not order a charge to protect himself, as Davos and Tormund knew the plan. He put his own life on the line to try and save his brother.
THEY decided that Jon was too important to lose, and thus said Screw the plan.
I'm saying the main reason that Jon attacks Winterfell is to save Rickon. If he thought that the chance of saving Rickon was 0%, he would not have attacked.
Hahaha Fuck I forgot about them too. It never registered to me that suddenly Ramsay had no archers when Jon starts chasing him.Just like they forgot all about the Boltons archers
Not like they would have made a difference against the heavy Calvary from the vale. Maybe a volley or two but that's it.
Yeah that was weird too lol.
I don't understand all this bickering over Sansa's choices. It's not really complex or deep.
- Sansa didn't want Littlefinger's help because she didn't trust him (Option A)
- Sansa wanted the Blackfish and his army because she trusts family (Option B)
- Option B didn't pan out, and in desperation she turned to Option A
- She didn't tell Jon initially because she is ashamed of her relationship with Littlefinger
- She would probably have told Jon if she was included in the planning of the battle, but got petty after he didn't
- Lucky for her it panned out anyway and they saved the day
Narratively speaking, her motivations aside, if they did wait for the reinforcements before attacking, Ramsay would probably have retreated and prepared for a long term siege. So whatever.
I think they all dropped their bows and grabbed their swords to follow the main army after Umber's WHO OWNS THE NORTH??? speech. Lol.
- Sansa didn't want Littlefinger's help because she didn't trust him (Option A)
- Sansa wanted the Blackfish and his army because she trusts family (Option B)
- Option B didn't pan out, and in desperation she turned to Option A
- She didn't tell Jon initially because she is ashamed of her relationship with Littlefinger
- She would probably have told Jon if she was included in the planning of the battle, but got petty after he didn't
- Lucky for her it panned out anyway and they saved the day
Narratively speaking, her motivations aside, if they did wait for the reinforcements before attacking, Ramsay would probably have retreated and prepared for a long term siege. So whatever.
I think they all dropped their bows and grabbed their swords to follow the main army after Umber's WHO OWNS THE NORTH??? speech. Lol.
Neospartan
Neo Member
I just realised that Sansa pulled a complete Littlefinger on Jon.
Ever since she got to the Wall, she wanted to storm Winterfell to get back at Ramsay, but Jon was having none of that.
Only after that does Ramsay's letter arrives, and noticing Jon's reaction to the fact that he has Rickon, she steps on the chaos and finally convinces Jon to ride for Winterfell.
Though, she is still not on Baelish's level and she loses control as the Northern houses reject her and Jon becomes more preoccupied with saving Rickon than getting back the castle or simply not dying.
She tries to slow him down and ensure a better chance of winning, but then realises Jon is a complete idiot when he refuses to try to rally the Cerwyns.
It is only then that she pulls her desperation move and asks LF for help. Still unsure if he's going to arrive on time, if at all. She keeps pushing for more men and keeps telling Jon he doesn't know Ramsay, probably to make him ask what kind of person Ramsay is and giving him a whole lesson all about that and spending time getting psychologically ready.
But Jon Snow knows nothing and asks all the wrong questions.
Ever since she got to the Wall, she wanted to storm Winterfell to get back at Ramsay, but Jon was having none of that.
Only after that does Ramsay's letter arrives, and noticing Jon's reaction to the fact that he has Rickon, she steps on the chaos and finally convinces Jon to ride for Winterfell.
Though, she is still not on Baelish's level and she loses control as the Northern houses reject her and Jon becomes more preoccupied with saving Rickon than getting back the castle or simply not dying.
She tries to slow him down and ensure a better chance of winning, but then realises Jon is a complete idiot when he refuses to try to rally the Cerwyns.
It is only then that she pulls her desperation move and asks LF for help. Still unsure if he's going to arrive on time, if at all. She keeps pushing for more men and keeps telling Jon he doesn't know Ramsay, probably to make him ask what kind of person Ramsay is and giving him a whole lesson all about that and spending time getting psychologically ready.
But Jon Snow knows nothing and asks all the wrong questions.
Sansa had the opportunity, straight out, when she asked Jon to wait and he said that they had no reason to as nobody else was coming.
Details didn't matter so much as waiting about 12 hours to coordinate the attacks.
You think she shut her mouth out of pettiness and shame of her relation with LF?
If that's true I chalk that under stupidity option.
http://www.vulture.com/2016
This article lists 5 options, none looking too good imo.
1 She thought Jon couldn't be trusted with the info. Basically she is calculating, withholding infos because she is either petty (getting back at Jon for not being involved in planning), or a pawn of LF in distrusting het brother. Thats a stupid option.
2 She used Jon and his men as unknowing bait, to get Ramsay out of Winterfell. Thay's one borderline evil option
3 Ashamed of her relation with LF and what happened. Why would that get in the way of telling Jon, I'm not sure. She could make up stories. That's the other stupid option.
4 She wanted any victory to be -her- victory, to solidify her claim. That's the other borderline evil option.
5 The writters wanted a Gandalf the White moment.
Option 5, sadly, is probably it, but we'll see what she has to tell to Jon.
it's just bad writing
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
No. She's acting as Littlefingers dupe. She has been ever since she secretly met with him.
Ned Stark told Cersei point blank that he knew about her incest and kids, and gave her the chance to leave after that. He paid for that with his life, doomed Robert, and caused the downfall of his family.
Robb Stark threw away the best chance he had at a strong alliance uniting the North and winning the war because he fell in love with a random battlefield nurse and got her pregnant. He paid for that with his life, doomed his mother, and all his bannermen.
Arya Stark refused an assassination contract she was assigned to, and instead of laying low, she openly booked passage back to Westeros and stood on a bridge waiting to be stabbed to death. She only survived because her plot armor was enchanted with +2 defense against shock death twist.
Bran Stark sneaked out of bed to logon to the Weirtranet after his teacher told him specifically not to connect without guidance. His actions got pretty much everyone killed except his girlfriend. He still didn't get any pity sex.
Jon Snow charged into battle alone and after seeing how it was a trap instead of regrouping with his forces he jumped to the ground and struck a hero pose as the enemy cavalry charged towards him, just waiting to die. He survived and got Play of the Game only because his Ultimate charges from stupid decisions instead.
Rickon Stark's only contribution to the story is to get captured and then to run in a straight line.
If we're talking about stupidity, I'm pretty sure the evidence clearly shows that it is genetic.
Jon knew that the North needs to be united to stand a chance against the White Walkers. However, once he was betrayed, murdered and resurrected, he no longer had the motivation to do what needed to be done. He even quit his role as Lord Commander and left the Night's Watch.
It was Sansa's return and Ramsay's letter that gave him a new motivation, the chance to protect and save his remaining family members. From his perspective he failed to save Ned, Robb and Arya. He won't fail Sansa and Rickon.
In Jon's mind taking back Winterfell was about uniting the North for the looming White Walker invasion.
However, in Jon's heart taking back Winterfell was about protecting Sansa and saving Rickon.
That's why I stated that without that emotional driver, Jon probably would not have attacked Winterfell.
I honestly don't think Sansa is as dumb as the other Starks. She would be long dead if she was.
Also don't forget Cat kidnapping Tyrion, and later freeing the Kingslayer behind Robb's back. I'm also not forgiving her for capitulation on the crossing the Twins deal.
More_Badass
Member
People really think she didnt tell Jon because she was ashamed?
Really?
Really?
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
What Sansa is doing is on Cat's level right now.
I don't get the ashamed angle as well. "hey Jon, this is LF, he saved my life and he's here to help." It's not like Jon know much about LF anyways.
ps. I know, I know LF married her to Ramsay. But let's take him for his word that he didn't know what Ramsay was.
So you guys have convinced me that Jon Snow is a total idiot. I actually find that to be consistent with GRRM-esque irony, which has been prevalent throughout the series. A dumb bastard is the main protagonist who gets brought back from the dead to lead humanity through a particularly difficult winter season.
wesleyshark
Banned
Well said for the sansa stuff.
And for the archer stuff, I think you're right. I had just assumed that the archers had followed Umber in after the shielded rows had surrounded Jon's army.
That's one part of the subtext that informs her internal conflict, yeah.
People will make up any sort of excuses for bad writing.
I'm not going to argue that the Starks (like many characters in GoT, Tywin and Oberyn included) do not do stupid things that oftens end up costing them their life and/or their loved ones, often also associated with bad writing (Arya and Bran in particular), but once Jon made the decision to go midfield, that was it. Archer rows were never going to let him ride back, as well illustrated by the scene where he charges forward and a volley of arrows lands right where he had been.
He committed himself to try and save his brother, while he knew his troops had their orders and their commanders (Tormund and Davos) knew it.
They are the ones who decided to charge to save him... yet it's Jon who is the stupid one?
Suicidal and idealist, yes (as shown in his suicide mission with Mance). But I honestly don't think he is portrayed as "stupid", as shown in the fact that he did not charge Ramsay with Longclaw, but with a shield he picked up right away.
I don't think it's odd to see it at face value for what it is. Jon is her half-brother, a true northerner, and this is a battle for the north. Littlefinger is an outsider from King's Landing, and even she isn't sure if she can trust him. So far everything she has suggested to Jon has been shot down - when she questioned him about Davos he was like "Lol, silly girl, I know what I'm doing, let us men work", when she told him about Ramsay he was like "Lol, silly girl, I'm a fighting man, let me do my job", when she warned him about a trap he said "Lol, silly girl, leave the strategy and tactics to us men". The last thing she needs is to say something to him about getting outside help and for him to go "Lol, silly girl, why did you involve outsiders, what if they let us down?" and then, if they do, she'll feel even worse about it. So she didn't tell him. If the plan didn't pan out, no one would shit on her for doing something stupid, if the plan did pan out, at least they have a shot of winning. I absolutely think that shame and honor played into this. I'm an expert.
MrPing1000
Member
Couldn't it just be a case of Littlefinger being Littlerfinger and purposely arriving at the last minute so the bulk of any future force is his? He may not have even told Sansa he was coming. And afterall he is Telepetyr so he could check when exactly to show up 
Is Littlefinger clairvoyant now as well? lol
MrPing1000
Member
Hides his forces nearby, teleports to battleground to assess, teleports back. Rides to Sansa then to battleground. Easy.
I think Sansa didn't tell Jon because she wasn't sure Littlefinger would arrive on time. That is why she said they "needed more time".
Alternatively, she emphasized that she knows how Ramsey thinks (and no one else would listen to her about this). Keeping Littlefinger's army a secret until the last minute would catch him off guard, as he couldn't plan for it. If they put the army in there in the beginning, Ramsey would plan an attack. She was right in the end, as her gamble paid off.
Alternatively, she emphasized that she knows how Ramsey thinks (and no one else would listen to her about this). Keeping Littlefinger's army a secret until the last minute would catch him off guard, as he couldn't plan for it. If they put the army in there in the beginning, Ramsey would plan an attack. She was right in the end, as her gamble paid off.
Did we watched the same episode? because I remember that when Sansa told Jon to involve her, he then asks for her opinion and she says "I don't know" :/
Couldn't it just be a case of Littlefinger being Littlerfinger and purposely arriving at the last minute so the bulk of any future force is his? He may not have even told Sansa he was coming. And afterall he is Telepetyr so he could check when exactly to show up
That's the way I figured it. I mean Sansa certainly caved and asked him for support, but no doubt little fucker pushed it to the last minute... perhaps (hopefully for himself) even to Jon's demise. Even with Jon alive he still has enormous leverage due to him "owning" the bulk of the "united forces" this way.
If anything works to Petyr's advantage, it's not by accident...
Probably it is, occam's razor and all that. Folks love to argue, pointlessly so.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
The part where LF traded her like a horse to Ramsay? Yeah, I bet asking him for help is a rather big chunk of shame.
She also decided not to mention that she'd met with LF to Jon the first time she dealt with him too and hid how she knew of The Blackfish. What simple solution drove that decision?
Tony Iron Man Stark
Banned
Sansa convinced Jon Snow to build an army to take back Winterfell from Ramsay Bolton and save her brother, but in the latest episode when Jon asked how to get Rickon back, she replied that they will never get him alive.
The lack of support kind of broke Sansa Stark. When she told Jon about saving Rickon she was also talking about how Stark still holds power in the north, and the houses would rally to her for support. Sansa was expecting the Umbers, Karstarks, Glovers, and Mormonts to all just jump to her because she was a Stark. Maybe not that literally, but close to it. Instead she got very few supporters, most notably the Mormonts (and good on them for sticking through even when it looks like no one else really wanted to join) and even then Lyanna made the point of asking if she was a Stark, a Lannister, or a Bolton.
Trying to raise an army and seeing that no help was coming, especially when Brienne failed to get the Tully army, kind of just proved to her that Littlefinger was right about the world. There was no justice to be had for her family just because they were Starks. And so she became darker. You can actually see it coming back over the scenes while Jon and Sansa are asking for support from family's they expected to just be loyal. Then, in the end, she speaks to Ramsay. He has the big houses with him, and he has shaggy dog's head. She views the world as Littlefinger does and she saw exactly what Ramsay would do.
She probably knew it was coming from the moment she sent Littlefinger the letter asking for help.
The lack of support kind of broke Sansa Stark. When she told Jon about saving Rickon she was also talking about how Stark still holds power in the north, and the houses would rally to her for support. Sansa was expecting the Umbers, Karstarks, Glovers, and Mormonts to all just jump to her because she was a Stark. Maybe not that literally, but close to it. Instead she got very few supporters, most notably the Mormonts (and good on them for sticking through even when it looks like no one else really wanted to join) and even then Lyanna made the point of asking if she was a Stark, a Lannister, or a Bolton.
Trying to raise an army and seeing that no help was coming, especially when Brienne failed to get the Tully army, kind of just proved to her that Littlefinger was right about the world. There was no justice to be had for her family just because they were Starks. And so she became darker. You can actually see it coming back over the scenes while Jon and Sansa are asking for support from family's they expected to just be loyal. Then, in the end, she speaks to Ramsay. He has the big houses with him, and he has shaggy dog's head. She views the world as Littlefinger does and she saw exactly what Ramsay would do.
She probably knew it was coming from the moment she sent Littlefinger the letter asking for help.
Well to be fair he did tell her the marriage is off if she objected. I do honestly believe that he did not know what Ramsay Bolton was like.
- Status