Support NeoGAF

[Advance_Alarm]

As a military leader I don't think you can allow a subordinate to openly go against your command without serious repercussions. If he didn't do that why would anyone feel the need to follow his orders?

You are right...except Robb did not punish Catelyn for freeing Jamie, arguably one of the most important prisoners they could have had except for Tywin or Joffrey. Jamie was also personally responsible for the deaths of high-born Northmen. Robb's stupidity and terrible decisions killed him. When you compare a scene of Tywin (or even Tyrion) playing the game and Robb its no surprise who will win.

 

[Sajjaja]

But what of Maester Luwin? Wouldn't he mention Stark banner men burning Winterfell to the ground? And after that why would they leave him alive? Either way, I can only picture the Boltons holding Theon at Balon's request. If they were still loyal to the Starks at the time of his capture why else keep quiet about it? And if Roose was on the Lannister payroll all along why imprison & torture an ally against Robb? Answers dammit!

Maester Luwin is dead.

 

[jaxword]

I don't think that's what it is. I think Robb just misinterpreted how loyal his men were to him, and how many were loyal to his father. Ned Stark could have beheaded Karstark, and they wouldn't have left, they'd still rally because they knew who he was, what he stood for and what he was capable of.

He had no reason to mistrust Bolton. I loved Robb, but he was young, inexperienced and naive. He may have won all his battles, but he lost the war.

He should've paid more attention to the warning signs and had more spies. The story has repeatedly shown us that the TRUE power in the world is information. Littlefinger and Varys can change the world without leaving their offices, whereas Robb had to go out and get his hands dirty personally.

Remember that it's pretty obvious that the Boltons burned down Winterfell, but that the world believes that it was Theon. If Robb HAD found out that it wasn't Theon, then things would've played out FAR differently. He probably would've had Bolton himself executed and taken over that army, preventing Tywin from bribing his way in from behind.

 

[kellycandthedragons]

But what of Maester Luwin? Wouldn't he mention Stark banner men burning Winterfell to the ground? And after that why would they leave him alive? Either way, I can only picture the Boltons holding Theon at Balon's request. If they were still loyal to the Starks at the time of his capture why else keep quiet about it? And if Roose was on the Lannister payroll all along why imprison & torture an ally against Robb? Answers dammit!

You are answering your own question with your other questions lol. They wouldn't leave him alive. He got to the tree in time to not see them enter Winterfell. The torture of an ally against Robb is also easily answered; he is a troll and doesn't care. Plus it eliminates the Greyjoy line. We know how alright he is with doing THAT.

Or Tywin doesn't want them to join up because that's just one more united force giving him a headache. Better to just tell Bolton to do this, then give up, and he won't be harmed. Besides, I doubt anyone in universe even likes the ironborn

 

[Nameless]

Maester Luwin is dead.

I know. But he was still alive when Bran and the misfits returned to a burning ruined Winterfell.

 

[jaxword]

I know. But he was still alive when Bran and the misfits returned to a burning ruined Winterfell.

He was dying and probably barely knew what was going on around him. Would barely have noticed if it was the Ironborn or the Boltons tossing torches.

 

[VeeP]

Yeah, it shows why the Starks were so easily killed, they let their guard down. Bolton even SAYS "[I don't drink], it dulls the senses."

When Jaime saw Bolton do that, he got suspicious. When Robb saw it, he ignored it. And paid the price.

Jamie was a prisoner. Robb and his family were guest, his uncle had just married the Freys, so they had become his "family" as well.

 

[Nameless]

You are answering your own question with your other questions lol. They wouldn't leave him alive. He got to the tree in time to not see them enter Winterfell. The torture of an ally against Robb is also easily answered; he is a troll and doesn't care. Plus it eliminates the Greyjoy line. We know how alright he is with doing THAT.

Or Tywin doesn't want them to join up because that's just one more united force giving him a headache. Better to just tell Bolton to do this, then give up, and he won't be harmed. Besides, I doubt anyone in universe even likes the ironborn

Ehhh. Maybe it was how it was edited but it didn't look like where he was took the interior of Winterfell out of his line of sight..not that he could get too far anyway.

And aside from having the most bad ass words of any house, the Ironborn probably have the most powerful fleet in the kingdom and no apparent desire to expand beyond their Iron Islands. They seem like proper bedfellows to me so long as you show them respect.

 

[Black-Wind]

Jamie was a prisoner. Robb and his family were guest, his uncle had just married the Freys, so they had become his "family" as well.

Rob also royally screwed them over and was all "We cool, right? ... I'm gonna take yo silence as you saying we cool!".

If I had just fucked someone over I would be on my toes.

Starks just do dumb shit sometimes.

 

[jaxword]

Jamie was a prisoner. Robb and his family were guest, his uncle had just married the Freys, so they had become his "family" as well.

Jaime had just been told he was free and that Bolton wanted to deal with his father.

Jaime is naturally suspicious. Robb is too trusting.

 

[soundscream]

You are right...except Robb did not punish Catelyn for freeing Jamie, arguably one of the most important prisoners they could have had except for Tywin or Joffrey. Jamie was also personally responsible for the deaths of high-born Northmen. Robb's stupidity and terrible decisions killed him. When you compare a scene of Tywin (or even Tyrion) playing the game and Robb its no surprise who will win.

It was his mother. Was he supposed to cut off her hand?

 

[kellycandthedragons]

Ehhh. Maybe it was how it was edited but it didn't look like where he was took the interior of Winterfell out of his line of sight..not that he could get too far anyway.

And aside from having the most bad ass words of any house, the Ironborn probably have the most powerful fleet in the kingdom and no apparent desire to expand beyond their Iron Islands. They seem like proper bedfellows to me so long as you show them respect.

two clips:
http://www.youtube.com/tv?v=5kF7MaPli8Y
http://www.youtube.com/tv?v=_6AAr7TWlWg

I don't see Wintefell clearly from there. It looks quite isolated.
How do they seem that way? Their words indicate that it's a matter of time before they try to fuck someone up. They don't build. They only destroy. Theon even asked why attack the north when they would be our allies? And his father was all BECAUSE WE'RE HARDASSES WE DON'T ACCEPT HELP FROM ANYONE NOW GTFO OF MY FACE YOU LITTLE BITCH

 

[RyanDG]

Starks just do dumb shit sometimes.

That really should be the new house motto for the Starks.

"We do dumb shit."

It runs up and down their entire line.

 

[Staccat0]

But what of Maester Luwin? Wouldn't he mention Stark banner men burning Winterfell to the ground? And after that why would they leave him alive? Either way, I can only picture the Boltons holding Theon at Balon's request. If they were still loyal to the Starks at the time of his capture why else keep quiet about it? And if Roose was on the Lannister payroll all along why imprison & torture an ally against Robb? Answers dammit!

The chronology of that scene has always bothered me actually, because I felt like the city hadn't been burned yet, which was odd. Especially considering the damn city was surounded by northerners blowing horns, I never understood WHEN Winterfell got burned. My mind will be blown if that was not just shoddy storytelling...

EDIT: AAAHHHH! I was misremembering.

I guess what bothered me is just that it was surrounded and they were outnumbered but shit got burned up somehow and no one stuck around to fix it.

 

[Steelyuhas]

The ratings next week will be the highest of the series run so far.

I'm expecting that.

Sunday's 18-49 demo rating was the highest in all of TV last week with the exception of The Voice. That is absurdly impressive considering it's premium cable.

 

[televator]

Beheading the Karstark guy was just as stupid and was directly responsible for him having to try to get Frey on his side again in the first place.

As much as I like the Starks, I admit that I frown on their practice of beheading for honor. It is stupid, and totally overboard. In this case though, Karstark did kill 2 innocent boys... but as I'm not a fan of death penalties in the end, I would have arrested Karstark indefinitely instead. Maybe having him captive could also be used to keep the rest of the Karstarks in line.

I definitely wouldn't let him walk though.

As a military leader I don't think you can allow a subordinate to openly go against your command without serious repercussions. If he didn't do that why would anyone feel the need to follow his orders?

I agree with that first point, but I just don't think beheading him was necessary.

 

[Nameless]

two clips:
http://www.youtube.com/tv?v=5kF7MaPli8Y
http://www.youtube.com/tv?v=_6AAr7TWlWg

I don't see Wintefell clearly from there. It looks quite isolated.
How do they seem that way? Their words indicate that it's a matter of time before they try to fuck someone up. They don't build. They only destroy. Theon even asked why attack the north when they would be our allies? And his father was all BECAUSE WE'RE HARDASSES WE DON'T ACCEPT HELP FROM ANYONE NOW GTFO OF MY FACE YOU LITTLE BITCH

I stand corrected on that point. Looks like he would be far enough away not to see the arsonists.

Balon's beef with the Starks goes back decades. We're talking deep seeded disdain before & after his failed revolution. You see your nemesis is weak, vulnerable , you strike. Tywin of all people would appreciate this. He would also be smart enough not to let a guy being a dick come between the possibility of exploiting such a formidable fleet. They aren't, however, the most versatile people so as a singular threat they're pretty much harmless, especially compared to the Lannisters.

The only way Theon isn't an asset is if Balon has given him up. Him being in a Bolton torture chamber
makes more sense if that's the case. Like Tywin, Bolton doesn't strike me as a guy who wastes opportunites.

 

[duckroll]

I agree with that first point, but I just don't think beheading him was necessary.

Beheading people is always necessary. Trust me on this.

 

[televator]

Beheading people is always necessary. Trust me on this.

It didn't improve Theon's situation...

 

[EatChildren]

Theon being tortured by the Boltons also means the Boltons now know Rickon and Brandon are alive.

 

[jaxword]

And if they get Rickon or Brandon, they beat Tywin's plan to control the North via Tyrion and Sansa.

And if they DO have Theon, as some sort of bargaining chip, then that's their Ironborn link.

Looks like the Boltons plan to replace the Starks as the wardens of the North.

 

[Kozak]

Did we ever hear word of why Umber isn't with Robb anymore? Did he go back to fight off the Greyjoys or something?

I can't imagine Rickon being safe with the Umbers. They may be good people but you just don't fuck around guarding a Stark male against the rest of Westeros. Sending him to the Vale would be a good idea. I'm sure Littlefinger would see value in having a daughter and marrying her to Rickon.

Osha should raise them with Hodor. Yeaaah!

 

[jaxword]

I'm sure Littlefinger would see value in having a daughter and marrying her to Rickon.

That's gross, that'd be Rickon marrying his cousin.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

That's gross, that'd be Rickon marrying his cousin.

Fairly common in medieval times, and in Westeros. Tywin's late wife was his cousin:
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/season3/#!/guide/houses/lannister/

 

[freddy]

How would someone have survived this back in this era? Would they not bleed out?
Or would someone cauterize the wound.

Hot wax.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Did we ever hear word of why Umber isn't with Robb anymore? Did he go back to fight off the Greyjoys or something?

I can't imagine Rickon being safe with the Umbers. They may be good people but you just don't fuck around guarding a Stark male against the rest of Westeros. Sending him to the Vale would be a good idea. I'm sure Littlefinger would see value in having a daughter and marrying her to Rickon.

Osha should raise them with Hodor. Yeaaah!

Sadly, Clive Mantle (Greatjon Umber) appeared to be a casualty of scheduling.

He was cast in something that conflicted with season 2 and he wasn't asked for season 3, assumingly because they already had two new characters in Robb and Cat's story (Edmure and Blackfish) and of course they had bannerman essential to the plot (Bolton and Karstark).

 

[kerotan_eater]

I'm a bit mad that my brother kind of told me the result of the War of the Roses as I know GoT is inspired by the long war and the names are similar.

Without spoiling it potentially more for those others, do the characters/events match up 1:1?

Like has what has occurred so far in the T.V. show , especially last episodes events been similar?

One word answer please - Yes/no/little/somewhat.

 

[Zeliard]

That's gross, that'd be Rickon marrying his cousin.

 

[jaxword]

One word answer please - Yes/no/little/somewhat.

Dude, why would you ask a question that spoils the future of the TV show?

At least ask in the book thread or something.

 

[ramyeon]

Dude, why would you ask a question that spoils the future of the TV show?

At least ask in the book thread or something.

He's not. He's asking if the current events in the show correlate at all with the War of the Roses.

To which I don't know, as I know nothing of the War of the Roses.

 

[kerotan_eater]

Dude, why would you ask a question that spoils the future of the TV show?

At least ask in the book thread or something.

Ah crap ... I don't really wanna go there either.

Its more specifically about what has happened so far. If someone could just put a spoiler tag so I can read it. Its driving me a little mad.

 

[ramyeon]

Ah crap ... I don't really wanna go there either.

Its more specifically about what has happened so far. If someone could just put a spoiler tag so I can read it. Its driving me a little mad.

I'm sure you have nothing to worry about, it'd be creative inspiration that's all.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

edit: nevermind, PM sent

 

[kerotan_eater]

I'm sure you have nothing to worry about, it'd be creative inspiration that's all.

I'm sure you are right ... but I love this show so much that hearing any hint, annoys me to no end.

EDIT: Thanks Morrigan, but if aren't familiar on the War of The Roses, than its hard to gauge how much the events of the show so far are similar to the war, which is what I am asking. But thanks anyway.

 

[Vashetti]

Theon being tortured by the Boltons also means the Boltons now know Rickon and Brandon are alive.

Fuck.

 

[RedShift]

I'm a bit mad that my brother kind of told me the result of the War of the Roses as I know GoT is inspired by the long war and the names are similar.

Without spoiling it potentially more for those others, do the characters/events match up 1:1?

Like has what has occurred so far in the T.V. show , especially last episodes events been similar?

One word answer please - Yes/no/little/somewhat.

Nah.

Red Wedding definitely is unlike anything in The War of the Roses, it was based on some massacres in Scottish history apparently. Pretty sure there was nothing like the questioning of Joeffrey's heritage either.

I think GRRM said the two biggest historical influences were the War of the Roses and the Hundred Years War but it won't be identical to either at all. The Starks and the Lannisters aren't rival branches of the same family for a start like the Yorks and Lancasters were.

 

[EatChildren]

Fuck.

Everybody wins!

Except the Starks. They are nothing but routinely fucked.

 

[kerotan_eater]

Nah.

Red Wedding definitely is unlike anything in The War of the Roses, it was based on some massacres in Scottish history apparently. Pretty sure there was nothing like the questioning of Joeffrey's heritage either.

I think GRRM said the two biggest historical influences were the War of the Roses and the Hundred Years War but it won't be identical to either at all. The Starks and the Lannisters aren't rival branches of the same family for a start like the Yorks and Lancasters were.

Is that a resounding

Spoiler

no

?

 

[Zeliard]

Everybody wins!

Except the Starks. They are nothing but routinely fucked.

That's what the Starks get for not bowing down to the Lord of Light. If only the old gods could be so grossly incandescent.

 

[RedShift]

Is that a resounding

Spoiler

no

?

I don't know, I haven't read the books and haven't learnt about the Tudors since primary school. But I'd doubt it.

I'm pretty sure there were no dragons, snow zombies or shadow monsters then as well.

 

[Kozak]

For a second there I thought War of Roses was something that was meant to happen in the future..

Like Lannisters vs Tyrells.

 

[oatmeal]

The dude who kills Cat gives zero fucks.

 

[Blue Ninja]

Is that a resounding

Spoiler

no

?

GoT/ASoIaF was based on the War on the Roses, but it's not an exact carbon copy of it. Don't worry.

 

[kerotan_eater]

I don't know, I haven't read the books and haven't learnt about the Tudors since primary school. But I'd doubt it.

I'm pretty sure there were no dragons, snow zombies or shadow monsters then as well.

=)

 

[lastplayed]

Nah.

Red Wedding definitely is unlike anything in The War of the Roses, it was based on some massacres in Scottish history apparently. Pretty sure there was nothing like the questioning of Joeffrey's heritage either.

I think GRRM said the two biggest historical influences were the War of the Roses and the Hundred Years War but it won't be identical to either at all. The Starks and the Lannisters aren't rival branches of the same family for a start like the Yorks and Lancasters were.

Yeah, The Black Dinner was one.

GoT has similar elements of the Wars of the Roses, but then again you could probably see influences all throughout feudal history.

#TeamYork

 

[Zeliard]

"Snow zombies" makes them sound adorable.

 

[nubbe]

Kinda funny when you look at the UK map

The wild north and the Wall

 

[lastplayed]

I guess one big difference is that late medieval England had crude guns and cannons. You'd think with an element like wildfire they'd have super-duper projectile weapons by now.

 

[kerotan_eater]

I don't know, I haven't read the books and haven't learnt about the Tudors since primary school. But I'd doubt it.

I'm pretty sure there were no dragons, snow zombies or shadow monsters then as well.

Anyhow, I guess i am acting a little silly. Even if it were the War of The Roses thing is symbolic, the whole zombies, dragons and shadow monster thing just screws the whole idea of symbolism up and is completely unaccounted for.

 

[Seance]

Man, Jaime used to be so awesome. Now He's just a cripple babby. RIP