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[LProtag]

Disclaimer: I haven't read the books. However, I know that simply due to the nature of the first book being literature and not television, and thus having a lot more substance and material to back the world and characters, there's some solid speculation surrounding Jon Snow's bloodline.

It's a really hard topic because, to my knowledge, it's not like some super mystery that is fed across all the books. It's a theory primarily rooted, almost exclusively, in material dealt with in A Game of Thrones, the first novel. But the show didn't go into it as much, so it probably can't be discussed :/.

This sums up the current state of things very well between the book and the show regarding this issue.

 

[Frank the Great]

Nah.

Red Wedding definitely is unlike anything in The War of the Roses, it was based on some massacres in Scottish history apparently. Pretty sure there was nothing like the questioning of Joeffrey's heritage either.

I think GRRM said the two biggest historical influences were the War of the Roses and the Hundred Years War but it won't be identical to either at all. The Starks and the Lannisters aren't rival branches of the same family for a start like the Yorks and Lancasters were.

frey really reminds me of warwick though. maybe not the red wedding in particular, but i definitely think frey was at least in some respects based on what happened with warwick and his rebellion.

 

[EatChildren]

Guess we'll just have to be patient then!

Thing is the theory might not actually turn out to be true. It's not like...how in some stories you have that mysterious, masked character who is deliberately made ambiguous, so much so that his/her/its narrative involves discovering their true identity. To my knowledge, there may be nothing much to Jon Snow's mother. Or maybe there is. It's literally a fairly loose theory based on the lore and history of Westeros and their characters, not so much any actual substance of development of events during the novel.

That's what makes it difficult. It's one of those things anybody could speculate and talk about if they knew the lore of Westeros, the history of the Starks, Robert's Rebellion, and so on. That's all the theory is seeded in. The most basic of information and character personalities from the very first book. No actual..development or surprise in latter books.

Could be something. Could be nothing. Fans seem to like the theory though!

 

[LProtag]

Thing is the theory might not actually turn out to be true. It's not like...how in some stories you have that mysterious, masked character who is deliberately made ambiguous, so much so that his/her/its narrative involves discovering their true identity. To my knowledge, there may be nothing much to Jon Snow's mother. Or maybe there is. It's literally a fairly loose theory based on the lore and history of Westeros and their characters, not so much any actual substance of development of events during the novel.

That's what makes it difficult. It's one of those things anybody could speculate and talk about if they knew the lore of Westeros, the history of the Starks, Robert's Rebellion, and so on. That's all the theory is seeded in. The most basic of information and character personalities from the very first book. No actual..development or surprise in latter books.

Could be something. Could be nothing. Fans seem to like the theory though!

I won't go into details, but the theory fits together extremely well and comments from people working on the show who talked to GRRM seem to support it too.

Though, you're right, still possible it might not be true.

 

[Brashnir]

Thing is the theory might not actually turn out to be true. It's not like...how in some stories you have that mysterious, masked character who is deliberately made ambiguous, so much so that his/her/its narrative involves discovering their true identity. To my knowledge, there may be nothing much to Jon Snow's mother. Or maybe there is. It's literally a fairly loose theory based on the lore and history of Westeros and their characters, not so much any actual substance of development of events during the novel.

That's what makes it difficult. It's one of those things anybody could speculate and talk about if they knew the lore of Westeros, the history of the Starks, Robert's Rebellion, and so on. That's all the theory is seeded in. The most basic of information and character personalities from the very first book. No actual..development or surprise in latter books.

Could be something. Could be nothing. Fans seem to like the theory though!

It could even be something where the writer changes his mind just to mess with the internet speculators.

 

[User 100115]

Thing is the theory might not actually turn out to be true. It's not like...how in some stories you have that mysterious, masked character who is deliberately made ambiguous, so much so that his/her/its narrative involves discovering their true identity. To my knowledge, there may be nothing much to Jon Snow's mother. Or maybe there is. It's literally a fairly loose theory based on the lore and history of Westeros and their characters, not so much any actual substance of development of events during the novel.

That's what makes it difficult. It's one of those things anybody could speculate and talk about if they knew the lore of Westeros, the history of the Starks, Robert's Rebellion, and so on. That's all the theory is seeded in. The most basic of information and character personalities from the very first book. No actual..development or surprise in latter books.

Could be something. Could be nothing. Fans seem to like the theory though!

Pretty much this. There isn't enough information in the tv show to even begin to form a theory about Jon's mom. But it's been a hotly debated topic for years, and has one very popular contender. But if I were a show watcher, I wouldn't go googling that, since there will likely be tons of spoilers presented as evidence.

 

[freddy]

Thing is the theory might not actually turn out to be true. It's not like...how in some stories you have that mysterious, masked character who is deliberately made ambiguous, so much so that his/her/its narrative involves discovering their true identity. To my knowledge, there may be nothing much to Jon Snow's mother. Or maybe there is. It's literally a fairly loose theory based on the lore and history of Westeros and their characters, not so much any actual substance of development of events during the novel.

That's what makes it difficult. It's one of those things anybody could speculate and talk about if they knew the lore of Westeros, the history of the Starks, Robert's Rebellion, and so on. That's all the theory is seeded in. The most basic of information and character personalities from the very first book. No actual..development or surprise in latter books.

Could be something. Could be nothing. Fans seem to like the theory though!

I don't see the benefit in discussing what the general consensus is of book readers on a subject that hasn't really been broached in the show about books you haven't read. You seem to be stuck in a weird place where you should have read the books but haven't.

 

[Zeliard]

EC let's make a pact to read all the books before S4 starts

 

[Trojita]

It could even be something where the writer changes his mind just to mess with the internet speculators.

Martin has been on record saying he wouldn't do this.

 

[Funky Papa]

Jon is a member of the Night's Watch now, so that's pretty much the end of it. Besides, his parent's identity means jackshit in a world where bastards cannot claim any title.

At this point his family tree is a curiosity at best.

 

[EatChildren]

It could even be something where the writer changes his mind just to mess with the internet speculators.

Yeah, could be that too. Wouldn't be the first time for a writer in any medium to do that.

I won't go into details, but the theory fits together extremely well and comments from people working on the show who talked to GRRM seem to support it too.

Though, you're right, still possible it might not be true.

Pretty much this. There isn't enough information in the tv show to even begin to form a theory about Jon's mom. But it's been a hotly debated topic for years, and has one very popular contender. But if I were a show watcher, I wouldn't go googling that, since there will likely be tons of spoilers presented as evidence.

I don't see the benefit in discussing what the general consensus is of book readers on a subject that hasn't really been broached in the show about books you haven't read. You seem to be stuck in a weird place where you should have read the books but haven't.

Yeah, sorry :/. I think the main point I was trying to get was that, as far as I'm aware, the reason the theories aren't discussed much in the series is both because the series hasn't put a focus on them, and because the nature of television adapting a book lead to content and perspectives naturally being cut. It's a theory built on history and substance directly from A Game of Thrones, and it does make me wonder how they could reintroduce that content in later seasons when it's not really contextually relevant. Hell, people could probably think about that stuff just watching the Westeros history features on the DVD/BluRay extras.

It's a weird middleground and yeah, I'm talking about a book topic I don't really know anything about in a thread specifically not about the book.

So I'll apologise, and kindly shut the fuck up.

 

[jetjevons]

Wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the series only a few characters remain.

Arya and Daeneris are the only ones I have a feeling will be safe.

I wouldn't mind that. Jon Snow would also be nice to have at the end. The Starks and Dany are the only people I care for.

I'm betting good money Arya and Bran will die. It's the only thing left GRRM could do to top the Red Wedding in terms of shock value.

 

[Subitai]

GRRM's perspective mainly deals with the character's position in the universe, I think. Arya, Bran, and even Jon are basically totally disconnected from a source of power or strength. They're "good guys", but they're also the underdogs. Ned and Robb weren't. They were kings with entire armies backing them. They were the most likely heroes of a traditional story. OFF WITH THEIR HEADS.



Disclaimer: I haven't read the books. However, I know that simply due to the nature of the first book being literature and not television, and thus having a lot more substance and material to back the world and characters, there's some solid speculation surrounding Jon Snow's bloodline.

It's a really hard topic because, to my knowledge, it's not like some super mystery that is fed across all the books. It's a theory primarily rooted, almost exclusively, in material dealt with in A Game of Thrones, the first novel. But the show didn't go into it as much, so it probably can't be discussed :/.

I don't have time to find the interview, but when the producers approached GRRM to do the show, they said GRRM tested them towards the end by asking, "Who is Jon Snow's real mother?" Fortunately, it was something they were just discussing a few days eariler between themselves, and so tenetively answered correctly. It is just a beautifuly constructed piece of realistic knowledge that will be forever unknown to the rest of the characters in the story. It is still possible that it will be made more apparent, or outright revealed to viewers of the show through an addition that isn't in the books.

 

[kellycandthedragons]

I just realized how effective that wedding was in a very strange sense. It helps us connect with the other Stark children.

I've seen people wondering "well who am I going to root for NOW?" Which is kind of understandable. It gives you a feeling of kind of drifting and being lost. All of a sudden we're just kind of out in the waters of the plot, drifting. It gives a very ungrounded feeling. This is exactly how Arya and Sansa must feel. Their parents are gone and they're alone with people they hate. They're lost and they're probably thinking "...what now?" What do they do with themselves now? It's pretty fascinating.

 

[freddy]

So I'll apologise, and kindly shut the fuck up.

Well, I was more wondering why you haven't really read them yet because if you're interested in them as much as you seem then you should probably make some time. The real strength of the series is the characters and how they are fleshed out. I'll shut the fuck up about it as well.

 

[kellycandthedragons]

also,

 

[Azih]

I don't agree with everyone calling the Starks stupid. They're just out of their element. The way they operate works perfectly in the harsh and sparsely populated North.

Their downfall was getting sucked into the intrigues of the South instead of staying North of the neck where they belonged. And that started to happen before the TV show even began.

 

[kellycandthedragons]

I don't agree with everyone calling the Starks stupid. They're just out of their element. The way they operate works perfectly in the harsh and sparsely populated North.

Their downfall was getting sucked into the intrigues of the South instead of staying North of the neck where they belonged. And that started to happen before the TV show even began.

People call them stupid for not realizing they are not in the North anymore and failing to adapt.

Also, can someone get to work on an "I Knew You Were Trouble" music video for Jon and Ygritte? The lyrics work PERFECTLY. IT'S BEGGING TO BE MADE. So funny.

 

[PBalfredo]

So remind me, who the hell are the Boltons? Before the last episode, I had lost them in GoT's thick dynastic soup.

Also, remind me again why Jaime kept trying to get away from Brienne when she was taking him back to the Lannisters in the first place?

 

[Mario007]

I was talking to my mom and she just finished watching the first season. She said she considered quitting after seeing Ned die...I wonder how she'll feel when she catches up to S3.

 

[kellycandthedragons]

So remind me, who the hell are the Boltons? Before the last episode, I had lost them in GoT's thick dynastic soup.

Also, remind me again why Jaime kept trying to get away from Brienne when she was taking him back to the Lannisters in the first place?

Boltons are another northern house. They are bannermen of the Starks (or they were...) Their house sigil is a man on a giant x, and like the Lannisters, they have a saying associated with their house. Theirs is "a naked man has few secrets--a flayed man none."

 

[Massa]

So remind me, who the hell are the Boltons? Before the last episode, I had lost them in GoT's thick dynastic soup.

Also, remind me again why Jaime kept trying to get away from Brienne when she was taking him back to the Lannisters in the first place?

The Boltons are a house in the North. Given his proximity to Robb throughout seasons 2 and 3 we can infer they're one of the bigger/more powerful ones.

Their sigil is a flayed man. In season 2 Lord Bolton suggested flaying (skinning) their enemies to Robb... "a naked man has few secrets, a flayed man none". Of course Robb denied as flaying is illegal in Westeros.

Jaime kept trying to get away for many reasons: pride of not being a prisoner, not having to give up the Stark girls for his return, which would give them a tactical advantage. It'd also be easier to travel, as he'd only have to sneak through alternate routes until finding friendly forces, not all the way to King's Landing like Brienne planned to do.

 

[PBalfredo]

Boltons are another northern house. They are bannermen of the Starks (or they were...) Their house sigil is a man on a giant x, and like the Lannisters, they have a saying associated with their house. Theirs is "a naked man has few secrets--a flayed man none."

Oh! When I saw the figurine of a dude on an X on Robb's war map at the beginning of the latest episode, I thought that was suppose to represent Theon on the torture rack, indicating Robb ordered Sick Fuck to torture him. But now knowing there is a house with a torture rack as their seal and "Boy, we sure love torture" as a house motto, it makes more sense it was them.

The Boltons are a house in the North. Given his proximity to Robb throughout seasons 1 and 2 we can infer they're one of the bigger/more powerful ones.

Their sigil is a flayed man. In season 2 Lord Bolton suggested flaying (skinning) their enemies to Robb... "a naked man has few secrets, a flayed man none". Of course Robb denied as flaying is illegal in Westeros.

Jaime kept trying to get away for many reasons: pride of not being a prisoner, not having to give up the Stark girls for his return, which would give them a tactical advantage. It'd also be easier to travel, as he'd only have to sneak through alternate routes until finding friendly forces, not all the way to King's Landing like Brienne planned to do.

Jaime has be getting back on people's Christmas card list lately by using Brienne as his little morality pet, show that while he's down for incest, child murder and regular murder, rape just isn't in his wheelhouse. But he only got them in that situation by sandbagging Brienne during their trip, and I was trying to remember why exactly.

Didn't he promise someone he'd bring Sansa back to the Starks? Was it Brienne he promised? Well for a time that looked like that would cause him to stand up against his father's wishes, but with Cat and Robb dead, looks like he's off the hook.

 

[UrbanRats]

I can't wait to see Brienne's reaction to the news of Catelyn's death.
Since it was Lannister's doing and all that.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I was talking to my mom and she just finished watching the first season. She said she considered quitting after seeing Ned die...I wonder how she'll feel when she catches up to S3.

s3 certainly ended on a mega downer and for as popular as the series is, i coooould see it taking a viewer ship hit. i dont think any mega popular series can survive without enough good vibes, in this hectic 9-5 world people do prefer to use their leisure time to escape, it's a fact of life. i can appreciate the bad guys winning though, it's certainly new and fresh.

 

[Blader]

I can't wait to see Brienne's reaction to the news of Catelyn's death.
Since it was Lannister's doing and all that.

Was it really the Lannisters' doing though? Frey wanted revenge for Robb not marrying his daughter and Bolton sold out to Frey for silver. How much do the Lannisters factor in?

I know Bolton passed along that "the Lannisters send their regards" message, but I don't think that was the context Jamie meant for it to have when he told Bolton.

 

[kellycandthedragons]

Was it really the Lannisters' doing though? Frey wanted revenge for Robb not marrying his daughter and Bolton sold out to Frey for silver. How much do the Lannisters factor in?

I know Bolton passed along that "the Lannisters send their regards" message, but I don't think that was the context Jamie meant for it to have when he told Bolton.

There has been speculation around the net regarding Tywin's letters he was always writing when Tyrion and Cersei wanted to talk to him.

 

[Vashetti]

There is also proof in that Bolton makes sure Jaime specifies to Tywin that Bolton had no part in Jaime losing his hand.

 

[televator]

I can't wait to see Brienne's reaction to the news of Catelyn's death.
Since it was Lannister's doing and all that.

... Or how the Tyrells will react to her while under Jamie's hospitality. They think she murdered their beloved King.

 

[cashman]

... Or how the Tyrells will react to her while under Jamie's hospitality. They think she murdered their beloved King.

Loras doesn't think that

 

[GungHo]

I'm totally the guy in the middle.

 

[sammyCYBORG]

I pretty sure people here have discussed/speculated who Jon Snow's mother is, and some thought she might be Targaryen; it's not a wild, specific truth, it's just speculation. Because their is so much mystery surrounding her, the idea might be plausible.

Calling out people on their theories is not cool, it makes people not want to speculate out of fear of being branded a book-reader etc. A few weeks ago predicted (by mistake) that the White Walkers could be killed by the Dragonglass. It doesn't make me a book-reader, it's just theory.

Anyway, rant over...

On-topic: I hope we see Brienne and Jaime this week. I hope that when Brienne learns of Jaime's death she doesn't think he was involved or act rashly, they are my favourite pairing.

All the death's in the episode have finally sunk in properly, and it really messes up who I was rooting for. I would be all Team Stannis at the moment, but I really hate Melisandre/the Lord of Light. So, Team Dany it is.

Who am I kidding: it's always Team Hodor.

 

[jaxword]

I pretty sure people here have discussed/speculated who Jon Snow's mother is, and some thought she might be Targaryen; it's not a wild, specific truth, it's just speculation. Because their is so much mystery surrounding her, the idea might be plausible.

Calling out people on their theories is not cool, it makes people not want to speculate out of fear of being branded a book-reader etc. A few weeks ago predicted (by mistake) that the White Walkers could be killed by the Dragonglass. It doesn't make me a book-reader, it's just theory.

There's a bizarre fetish amongst some book-readers to go and post what's coming as "speculation." This is not limited to neogaf, it's literally on every single GOT thread on every site out there. So it's hard to to tell who is genuinely speculating and who is not. The term "witch hunt" has been said as something to avoid, but is there another way?

I'm against zero-tolerance policies in general for moral and logical reasons, but this may be the only time it works since asking nicely doesn't work at all. They just can't stop.

It's inexplicable. There's just some bizarre pleasure out of being sneaky. Like, "I'm getting away with this, I'm soooo much smarter than these ignorant morons." Like they're all imagining they're Littlefinger or something.


I've seen similar behavior online in Let's Plays. Where people come in and make subtle "Boy, I bet the next update is going to be KILLER"-type comments about the future.

You could probably do some sort of study on this. Why people get pleasure out of acting like they're an all-knowing God in such a small, petty way.

 

[Cyan]

I see a lot of similarities to stories of the Roman Empire too. Can't think of any direct examples but I remember thinking "that's just like GoT" more than once

Probably you're thinking of all the endless murdering.

At least, when I listened to the Hardcore History podcasts on the Roman Republic, one of my thoughts was that Game of Thrones seemed a lot more realistic.

Also that the Targaryens might be somewhat based on the Ptolemaic Dynasty of Egypt. A foreign family that takes over rule of the country, that has notable non-native features, that traditionally marries sisters to brothers to keep the line going.

Which would make Daenerys... Cleopatra?

 

[Liquidsnake]

I was talking to my mom and she just finished watching the first season. She said she considered quitting after seeing Ned die...I wonder how she'll feel when she catches up to S3.

Honestly, I started watching season 1 again last night, and its hard for me to even go back to watch that season. I get angry. I don't know if I will finish it.

 

[Zeliard]

There has been speculation around the net regarding Tywin's letters he was always writing when Tyrion and Cersei wanted to talk to him.

The scene in ep 4 with Cersei and Tywin chatting as Tywin writes the letter makes it clear he was a major part of the Red Wedding, both through the dialogue and just the way it's shot. They filmed it in a somewhat sinister way, with odd close-ups of Tywin putting ink to paper but never a single word legible. 'Course everything Charles Dance does on the show is sinister.

In the scene Cersei says "I want to make sure we're doing everything we can to get Jamie back" and it immediately cuts to the letter. This is followed by Tywin saying "if I were to start a war for that lecherous little stump, what do you think I'm doing for my oldest son and heir?" "Whatever I can."

 

[Kave_Man]

I can't wait to see Brienne's reaction to the news of Catelyn's death.
Since it was Lannister's doing and all that.

Hmm I'm starting to think Brienne may take over as the angel of death instead of Arya.

Renly and now Cat are dead. Watch out Jaime, Roose Bolton and that poor bear.

 

[J-Rod]

So did the dick blood leech burning influence Robb's death in a detectable way? Seems like things would've went down the way they did regardless.

 

[Cyan]

So did the dick blood leech burning influence Robb's death in a detectable way? Seems like things would've went down the way they did regardless.

I don't really think so. For one thing, that would be ridiculously powerful for something that's relatively easy to do--why didn't they just do that to Renly, instead of the whole smoke-monster craziness? For another thing, as pointed out above, this has been in the works for most of the season (and maybe part of the previous season). Tywin's been sending letters and planning this shit since well before somebody threw a leech on a fire.

 

[RedShift]

I was going to try and make a theory about how where the leeches were on Gendry affects how they die, because where Robb got stabbed seemed fairly close to where one of the bites was on Gendry, and maybe Theon losing his dick was related to the curse on Balon and the dick leech?

But I think Theon lost his one eyed trouser snake before the leeches anyway.

 

[Cyan]

The point of the leeches, in terms of what will happen on the show, is that to Stannis and crew, it will look like the leeches had an effect. So much for Davos's pleas for keeping the Red Woman at arm's length.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Boltons are another northern house. They are bannermen of the Starks (or they were...) Their house sigil is a man on a giant x, and like the Lannisters, they have a saying associated with their house. Theirs is "a naked man has few secrets--a flayed man none."

A common saying, but not their official house words (similar to how the Lannister's house words are not "A Lannister always pays his debts").

 

[jaxword]

What if the Leech-curse was a more subtle machination? God works in "mysterious ways" and all that.

What if it's just to cause the cursed person to make a poor decision, like they have a splitting headache that day? A migraine at a crucial decisionmaking point can lead to...well, in war, it can lead to death.

Robb got drunk and let his guard down, and it got him killed. Yes, the buildup was there all season, but if Robb had, say, worn armor or not brought his wife, the situation could have gone VERY differently.

 

[Zoso Achilles]

In regards to the leeches, remember that correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
So basically this:

The point of the leeches, in terms of what will happen on the show, is that to Stannis and crew, it will look like the leeches had an effect. So much for Davos's pleas for keeping the Red Woman at arm's length.

 

[RedShift]

In regards to the leeches, remember that correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
So basically this:

Dude we know you know, because you've read the books. We like guessing. Argh I give up just putting you on ignore.

 

[dLMN8R]

Oh man, all I can think about now is wondering how Arya and Sansa will react once they have time to fully process what happened. I can't imagine that Sansa will continue fake-accepting everything that's going on.

I can imagine these events crafting the two of them into becoming two of the most dangerous and callous killers in the series. Fuck honor and properness at this point.


Also, I'm really glad that Jon didn't keep up his charade with the wildlings. His freedom (at least as I see it) happened a lot quicker than I expected it to.

 

[sammyCYBORG]

There's a bizarre fetish amongst some book-readers to go and post what's coming as "speculation." This is not limited to neogaf, it's literally on every single GOT thread on every site out there. So it's hard to to tell who is genuinely speculating and who is not. The term "witch hunt" has been said as something to avoid, but is there another way?

I'm against zero-tolerance policies in general for moral and logical reasons, but this may be the only time it works since asking nicely doesn't work at all. They just can't stop.

It's inexplicable. There's just some bizarre pleasure out of being sneaky. Like, "I'm getting away with this, I'm soooo much smarter than these ignorant morons." Like they're all imagining they're Littlefinger or something.


I've seen similar behavior online in Let's Plays. Where people come in and make subtle "Boy, I bet the next update is going to be KILLER"-type comments about the future.

You could probably do some sort of study on this. Why people get pleasure out of acting like they're an all-knowing God in such a small, petty way.

Oh yes, I totally agree. There are some people out there that would love nothing better than to spoil everything.

I just don't think the right way to go about this is to call out everyone and to assume that everyone is out to spoil the books.

I made a post weeks ago about how the only way to kill White Walkers was with fire (I mistook Wights and White Walkers), so I thought Dragonglass would kill them as I understood Dragonglass as being forged with dragon's fire.

Instead of calling me out, labeling that as a spoiler, and thus ruining the climax where Sam stabs the White Walker; someone merely asked if I was confused.

People know that you can PM a mod if you suspect something is spoilery, but instead people accuse one another and it descends into the same argument (that I am fueling, I will admit).

I just think that there aught to be better ways of dealing with this. Instead of having a conversations on people's theories on who they think Jon's mother is, it was halted by one posters comment, and that's not the right way to go about things if all someone wants is discussion. Castrate them all!

EDIT: Haha, as soon as I post this someone comes in speculating who has read the books.
____

I think the leeches are just a red herring (not sure if right term), it seems like it was just a show for Davos and Stannis to make them believe in the God of Light.

 

[jaxword]

Dude we know you know, because you've read the books. We like guessing. Argh I give up just putting you on ignore.

Seriously? Why is he allowed to "speculate" then? Does he think he's above the rules?

Good idea on the ignore.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Dude we know you know, because you've read the books. We like guessing. Argh I give up just putting you on ignore.

Just can't help it.

 

[Zoso Achilles]

Dude we know you know, because you've read the books. We like guessing. Argh I give up just putting you on ignore.

I'm saying what other people are saying. Go ahead, ignore me; that just means I won't have to see you're ridiculous freak-outs every time I post.

And no, I don't know. Power in a kings blood, one king down but it's been set up for a long time, who's to say how much weight the magic played, if any? This is not as apparent as a shadow dude stabbing Renly.