Support NeoGAF

[Massa]

Spoiler

True, but that doubt was still always there for Tyrion, even when he acknowledges it. I think he preferred to ignore that doubt and live with the fantasy that she loved him.

But regardless, it's still completely opposite of how show-Shae is playing out. It seems like the showrunners are trying to use Tyrion's marriage to Sansa as the reason for her betrayal, and that's a pretty crap adaptation.

ASOS

Spoiler

It's a bit premature to say it's crap when they haven't even showed how she'll betray him or why, you're assuming they changed one part of the story but will keep the rest identical.

Regarding Theon...

Spoiler

I really wish they had kept him off the entire season. Screw keeping the actor on board, you tell his agent that he can either come back in a year, or that they'll just recast him. If they get the actor back, fine, show the torture, if not, do the nice mind screw with the audience and introduce it old, beaten man in season 4 or 5.

ADWD

Spoiler

That would completely ruin the character. They have to show him being broken for Reek to make any impact on TV.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Regarding Theon...

Spoiler

I really wish they had kept him off the entire season. Screw keeping the actor on board, you tell his agent that he can either come back in a year, or that they'll just recast him. If they get the actor back, fine, show the torture, if not, do the nice mind screw with the audience and introduce it old, beaten man in season 4 or 5.

ADWD

Spoiler

People complained that the "escape" went on too long as it is. A lot of tv viewers are still in the mind of Theon a few episodes ago, they "think the story has a happy ending." They want the story to move on from the torture on to the next thing. I don't think a lot of people realize that Theon is in it for the long haul. It's a very different approach from knowing after the fact what Theon went through.

They are advancing his story by making his memories an active part of the story. It would not be as effective as Theon disappearing from the show for a couple years then popping back up with the explanation told in flashback or exposition. That works for a novel but not for Tv. I don't see any problem with this approach for the TV adaptation.

There is no Reek prior to the transformation in the show, so for the viewer to understand the change, they need to show what he went through. And what he went through was described in graphic detail in the book. Why change what will just make it more powerful of a story?

 

[Trasher]

ASOS

Spoiler

Recast? Bleh. That would have been awful. They made the right choice in having him come back this season, though I think his story would have benefited from spacing out the scenes more, and having the escape last longer.

Spoiler

I'm glad he was included in this season. I think they had to do that. However, they should have cut it down a lot more. Maybe only have him in three episodes total. Alfie Allen isn't even that big of an actor right now so I feel like they could have done whatever the fuck they wanted to be honest.

 

[-griffy-]

Spoiler

I'm glad he was included in this season. I think they had to do that. However, they should have cut it down a lot more. Maybe only have him in three episodes total. Alfie Allen isn't even that big of an actor right now so I feel like they could have done whatever the fuck they wanted to be honest.

I think they are doing whatever the fuck they wanted. This talk of maybe there are contracts where actors need to appear in so many episodes is bunk. I think this is simply the way they wanted to structure it.

 

[Solo]

Another really solid episode. Loving the season. Can't believe there is a 2 week break between next week's ep and *the* event in Episode 9. HBO, you tease!

 

[Trasher]

I think they are doing whatever the fuck they wanted. This talk of maybe there are contracts where actors need to appear in so many episodes is bunk. I think this is simply the way they wanted to structure it.

Probably true. If so, that was a mistake by them then. I'm just saying that he wasn't a big enough of an actor to warrant that much screen time if that was their reasoning. It's not a valid excuse if they were to use it as one.

 

[toddhunter]

With Theon I think we need to remember:

(ASOS and season 3 ending)

Spoiler

The whole point of this season is building up to what happens in episode 9. Not only will those events take place, but we'll see who it is that has been torturing Theon... I expect that reveal will probably be before that in a quickly cut "holy shit that family is nuts/evil/oh no run!" moment before shit goes down. Something like "Your Father won't stand for this torture!" "My Father? He is even more evil than me..."

So in that respect, I think it is extremely effective (if not too graphic for my tastes). Sure they are taking a bit more time over it then perhaps they need to, but given the importance of what is coming, and the somewhat lack of importance about what is following it, I think it is the right call.

 

[Levi]

ASOS

Spoiler

I've gotten into this with other earlier in the thread, but I have no problem with that change. I actually think it's an improvement over the source material.

I agree. Book Shae is a bit of a

Spoiler

gold digger. She wants to wear jewels and fine clothes even though it would endanger both her and Tyrion. It hurts him when Shae doesn't give a shit about him marrying Sansa. Of course, book Tyrion is a much more damaged character -after what Tywin did to his first wife, he is not going to have a healthy relationship with women.

Show Shae is a more complex character. She is simultaneously much smarter than book Shae and much more naive. Show Shae should have known a long time ago that Tyrion would never openly claim her, never marry her, never treat her like his partner. He has too many daddy issues, is too wrapped up in his identity as "A Lannister".

If Tyrion was a good man, he would take his gold and sale across the narrow sea. His family doesn't appreciate him, the King wants him dead, and he is marrying a woman against not only his wishes but also destroying his relationship with the woman he does love. Show Tyrion may not be as flawed as book Tyrion, but his decision in this last episode to stick by family rather than pursue his own happiness is still pretty fucking tragic.

ASOS

Spoiler

in the books, some people cheered him killing a betraying whore. The murder in the show will be much harder to forgive.

 

[Solo]

Emilia in that white dress

 

[Last Hearth]

Tywin is basically ruler of Westeros right now. He's the richest man in the realm, hand of the king, and has by far the largest army. He's also talked down to several people this season and seems to think of his children as his servants. But apparently he's a badass and doesn't need to be brought down a peg.

Well you can blame the show writers for this, because they are the ones that keep building him.

In the books he offers the Cersei Tyrell marriage and gets turned down. Because the Tyrells aren't that afraid of him because they know that he needs them. Tywin could never threaten to take away the Tyrell heir in the books because the Tyrells don't need him. Then can just pack up and go back the Highgarden and the Lannisters are screwed.

But show Tywin can just make a threat and the Tyrells capitulate. In order for Dany to be on Tywin's level, she'd have made the threats last night and Yunkai would have opened their doors and welcomed their new Queen.

 

[Levi]

Tywin is a character, like Bronn, that you can tell D&D really like.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

ASOS

Spoiler

in the books, some people cheered him killing a betraying whore. The murder in the show will be much harder to forgive.

ASOS

Spoiler

I think they intend to make it a much bigger betrayal when she goes to court, I imagine they're going to combine several characters for Tyrion's Trial for brevity, and just have Shae end up giving some damning testimony.

Haha, it feels so good I can contribute now to spoilers, since I finished that book. I'm almost done with A Feast For Crows!

 

[DrForester]

ASOS

Spoiler

in the books, some people cheered him killing a betraying whore. The murder in the show will be much harder to forgive.

I don't think so.
ASOS

Spoiler

Both Shae and Tywin got what was coming to them when Tyrion found them. While in the back of his mind he knew Shae never loved him, to see his whore in bed with his father, who has claimed to despised whores, and ruined his marriage to a good (though lowborn) woman was unforgivable for him.

 

[Levi]

I don't think so.
ASOS

Spoiler

Both Shae and Tywin got what was coming to them when Tyrion found them. While in the back of his mind he knew Shae never loved him, to see his whore in bed with his father, who has claimed to despised whores, and ruined his marriage to a good (though lowborn) woman was unforgivable for him.

ASOS

Spoiler

that is accurate in the books. I suspect in the show they will handle that betrayal differently. Maybe she betrays Tyrion and Fucks Tywin because she is told if she does they'll let Tyrion take the black. He doesn't know, and when he sees her there...

I absolutely believe that changing Shae changes how future events go down.

 

[a secret-boss]

I'm just happy the bear is there

 

[DragonSworne]

[ADWD]

Spoiler

the more torture the better. It won't make any sense if he suddenly becomes reek after 2-3 episodes of torture. In order for him to turn into Reek, it is going to take seasons. Yes, seasons. Hope you guys enjoy torture, it's not going to end anytime soon.

 

[Dysun]

I like the Theon scenes, it's giving us a nice introduction to 'Boy' and more Alfie Allen is a good thing.

 

[Zabka]

ADWD

Spoiler

I think showing Theon's torture has more to do with Ramsay than Theon. I would have preferred Theon just appear as a mangled wretch like he did in the books but they wrote themselves into a corner by not introducing Reek/Ramsay last season. Introducing him now to show him breaking down Theon is the most logical way to work him into the story without altering it any further.

 

[Minus_Me]

Regarding Theon

Spoiler

the more torture the better. It won't make any sense if he suddenly becomes reek after 2-3 episodes of torture. In order for him to turn into Reek, it is going to take seasons. Yes, seasons. Hope you guys enjoy torture, it's not going to end anytime soon.

They should push the boundaries with this.

 

[DrForester]

Regarding Theon

Spoiler

the more torture the better. It won't make any sense if he suddenly becomes reek after 2-3 episodes of torture. In order for him to turn into Reek, it is going to take seasons. Yes, seasons. Hope you guys enjoy torture, it's not going to end anytime soon.

series

Spoiler

No way. He calls himself Reek at the end of the season, or very early next season. There is no way they're torturing him for two full seasons. I imagine next season they have the retaking of Moat Calin early.

Heck, maybe they don't even bother with the Reek name. It's kind of lost all meaning in the show because they failed to set it up properly last season.

Wait...

What if the show decided to have Reek still with Ramsay at this point, and Theon kills him in an escape attempt...

 

["God's Beard!"]

Anybody have the horn sound from Theon's torturer? I wanna make it my text tone.

 

[Massa]

The amazing version of Rains of Castamere they used in episode 7.

(beware of spoilers in the comments, as usual).

 

[Emerson]

With Theon I think we need to remember:

(ASOS and season 3 ending)

Spoiler

The whole point of this season is building up to what happens in episode 9. Not only will those events take place, but we'll see who it is that has been torturing Theon... I expect that reveal will probably be before that in a quickly cut "holy shit that family is nuts/evil/oh no run!" moment before shit goes down. Something like "Your Father won't stand for this torture!" "My Father? He is even more evil than me..."

So in that respect, I think it is extremely effective (if not too graphic for my tastes). Sure they are taking a bit more time over it then perhaps they need to, but given the importance of what is coming, and the somewhat lack of importance about what is following it, I think it is the right call.

SERIES

Spoiler

Lol, in no universe is Roose more evil than Ramsay.

As far as Theon's arc, SERIES

Spoiler

I also would not be shocked if they didn't use the Reek name. The hissyfits we would bear witness to in that case would be beyond belief.

 

[ultron87]

Next time: Theon finds a can of party nuts. He opens it to shockingly find actual nuts instead of spring snakes. But he's developed a nut allergy!

 

[User 100115]

Next time: Theon finds a can of party nuts. He opens it to shockingly find actual nuts instead of spring snakes. But he's developed a nut allergy!

But the peanuts are actually pit vipers. Oh no!

 

[FStop7]

Now, now.
AFFC&ADWD

Spoiler

Let's not rewrite history now. Brienne's chapters were dreadful. The only reason they beat Dany's is because at least you can read the characters' names.

But AFFC is the best book in the series

 

[Fidelis Hodie]

But AFFC is the best book in the series

. . What? In what world could you possibly think that??

 

[Laurentius]

Tywin is basically ruler of Westeros right now. He's the richest man in the realm, hand of the king, and has by far the largest army. He's also talked down to several people this season and seems to think of his children as his servants. But apparently he's a badass and doesn't need to be brought down a peg.

ASOS

Spoiler

I think he was intentionally written that way in the books. I think GRRM tries to get us to like him to an extent because of his badass-ery, to the point where some of us seem to forget/forgive how despicable of a person he is in a lot of ways. It wasn't until the latter half of ASOS that it really was driven home how pathetic and shitty of a person he is.

I think they're doing a great job of portraying that here in the TV series.

 

[Minus_Me]

Now, now.
AFFC&ADWD

Spoiler

Let's not rewrite history now. Brienne's chapters were dreadful. The only reason they beat Dany's is because at least you can read the characters' names.

After my re read of the two books, I was astounded when I came to actually love her chapters.

 

[Laurentius]

After my re read of the two books, I was astounded when I came to actually love her chapters.

I'm on my first read of AFFC,

Spoiler

and I've enjoyed the Brienne chapters...do people in general dislike them or something?

 

[Levi]

But AFFC is the best book in the series

This. (unless you count Sean T. Collins' combined Feast/Dance reading order as one book, then that is the best one).

I've been reading the series annually for over a decade, and since it was added to the series, Feast is the book I most look forward to revisiting. I love

Spoiler

Brienne's

chapters. People who hate those chapters are appreciating ASOIAF for different reasons than I am, which is fine. There is so much in the books that two fans can be brought in by completely different aspects.

 

[Minus_Me]

I didn't hate them, but they were dull to me. On the second go around my opinion changed quite a bit.

 

[Jangocube]

I was looking through the other thread, and I have to say, I think it's weird when you have people praise Tywin for exerting his dominance over everyone and being a "boss", but complain about Daenerys and saying she needs to be brought down a notch.

To me it's more that Tywin seems to have built his success himself(never read the books, no clue if he was handed all of his wealth or not) and that Daenerys just seems to have been born lucky with the gift that she has. Plus, dragons seem like a instant win cheat code.

That's my take at least. But you can hint that it's "OMG BOOBIES" all you want.

 

[devilhawk]

It seems I was chided much earlier in the thread for my belief of AFfC > ADwD, but there are others with my opinion now.

AFfC

Spoiler

Cercei's chapters are going to be great TV. The Kings Landing politics has always been a strength in the show. How they have implemented Margaery will only make it even better.

 

[ultron87]

Feast is waaaaay better than Dance

 

[Levi]

Feast also had the best reveal in the entire series.

Spoiler

And what is our heart's desire? Vengeance. Justice. Fire and blood.

This scene is mirrored in ADWD.

Spoiler

The north remembers.

Which is an awesome scene as well.

Goddamn I love these books.

 

[DrForester]

I liked AFFC quite a bit.

Spoiler

I really enjoyed the Brienne chapters. The only chapters I found a bit boring were the Iron Islands and the Dorne stuff, but they were few and far between. Though the Dorne arc had a great payoff at the end. The Kings Landing stuff was fantastic. I loved how Tyrion was absent the entire book, outside the paranoia of Cersei and his words ringing in Jamies ears the whole book. Really my only disappointment was that GRRM revealed Stoneheart in ASOS, and I think if we the readers had been introduced to Stoneheart the same time Brienne was, it would have made for an amazing reveal. Especially with the stories about her being told throughout several other chapters in the book. Would have been great not to have any idea that it was Catelyn.

 

[Supermanisdead]

I started to re read ASoS, but you guys are making me want to read AFfC... :/

 

[Eidan]

But AFFC is the best book in the series

 

[Emerson]

I love all the books, but you've got to be out of your tree to suggest that AFFC is better than ASOS.

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

Feast is waaaaay better than Dance

You're crazy.

[ADwD]

Spoiler

Except Dany's chapters in Dance which are god awful. The stuff in the North in Dance is some of the best stuff in the series.

 

[FStop7]

Dune is my favorite book, if that gives any insight as to why I prefer AFFC.

AFFC

Spoiler

Jaime's introspection and self realization is amazing. Cersei's slow meltdown is amazing. So are the changes in Arya. And the infiltration of the college of Maesters from the first and last chapters was awesome, too.

 

[Emerson]

You're crazy.

[ADwD]

Spoiler

Except Dany's chapters in Dance which are god awful. The stuff in the North in Dance is some of the best stuff in the series.

ADWD

Spoiler

Even Dany's chapters had some great moments. The fighting pit scene was obviously pretty awesome and the reveal about the dragons killing kids was good too. Plenty of boring stuff though for sure.

I agree though, the North stuff particularly Theon's Winterfell chapters were fucking fantastic.

 

[Helmholtz]

I also prefer Feast over Dance. Dance felt more bloated to me and the pacing seemed to really take a hit. Feast, aside from not including some fan favorite characters, was pretty solid throughout and I enjoyed its storylines. Don't get me wrong though, Dance was pretty good I thought. Just didn't seem as well put together as the first 4 books. Likely due to him having to separate geographically.

 

[petethepanda]

[ADWD]

Spoiler

"What would I do? Juggle?"

Dear lord do I hope they find some way around that bullshit.

 

[Hieberrr]

Oona Chaplin is so fine!

 

[Steelyuhas]

ASOS

Spoiler

Recast? Bleh. That would have been awful. They made the right choice in having him come back this season, though I think his story would have benefited from spacing out the scenes more, and having the escape last longer.

Series

Spoiler

Agreed.

The arc will still be worth it when (I assume episode 10) Ramsay reveals himself and what has happened to Robb. Now that Theon is completely terrified of him, I hope we don't see him until episode 10, and I hope Ramsay doesn't even lay a hand on him. I hope he tells him who he is and what's happened, and what he has in store for him in the future. It'll be the emotional straw that breaks what's left of him and then I hope we don't see Theon for a while, if he's in season 4 at all, I hope it's very limited and then you can dive into his Dance material in season 5.

Feast also had the best reveal in the entire series.

Spoiler

And what is our heart's desire? Vengeance. Justice. Fire and blood.

This scene is mirrored in ADWD.

Spoiler

The north remembers.

Which is an awesome scene as well.

Goddamn I love these books.

Series

Spoiler

Still hope they sneak "The North Remembers" in from Robb before the end of this season. As I recall, he said it at least once in ASOS.

 

[Levi]

michaelsaysno.gif

Huge Sansa stan doesn't love Feast? Does not compute.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

You're crazy.

[ADwD]

Spoiler

Except Dany's chapters in Dance which are god awful. The stuff in the North in Dance is some of the best stuff in the series.

ADWD

Spoiler

Yeah, the material in the North was great. Jon could have used one or two less chapters, but his chapter where he kills Janos Slynt is probably my favorite in the series. Theon's chapters were altogether the best storyline in the book. Davos's chapters were pretty good, but his story ended way too soon.

The Essos stuff was all around pretty bad though. Outside one or two moments, Dany's chapters were dreadful. Tyrion's chapters were frustrating. Just nothing to good going on out there.

 

[DrForester]

ADWD

Spoiler

Yeah, the material in the North was great. Jon could have used one or two less chapters, but his chapter where he kills Janos Slynt is probably my favorite in the series. Theon's chapters were altogether the best storyline in the book. Davos's chapters were pretty good, but his story ended way too soon.

The Essos stuff was all around pretty bad though. Outside one or two moments, Dany's chapters were dreadful. Tyrion's chapters were frustrating. Just nothing to good going on out there.

ADWD

Spoiler

Halfway through the chapter, that's my favorite moment as well. Especially when he apparently calls it off, and Janos get a big grin on his face. I knew what was coming and the chapter delivered. Jon was going to do it himself.