Support NeoGAF

[cacildo]

I still wonder what was going on that made GTA IV and MGS4 get such extreme praise. I guess the hype cycle was immense for those two.

Its not just hype. People were too excited about HD graphics forgetting about gameplay.

"Wow! GTA in HD!" was more than enough for a perfect score. It didnt matter that the game was terrible

(and we will see this hapening with shinier graphics over and over and over again)

 

[SilentSoldier]

Chrono Cross gets a 10 just for its soundtrack, that OST is a thing of beauty that has yet to be matched. One of my favorite games from that generation. I'm on the CC > CT camp, but CT is also an amazing game too.

 

[Rran]

Here was last year's vid

Interesting topic of discussion, but I had hoped that when discussing a few of the more questionable reviews, and the staff stood by the score (excluding Chrono Cross), that they made their argument against that criticism.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

The thing about GTAIV is that it's clunky and sometimes frustrating just to walk around. That's the reason why, to me, the game absolutely isn't a 10. It has a lot of great stuff to the game, but I'll never understand how something so fundamental can be effectively disregarded by so many critics.

 

[Lothar]

Chrono Cross gets a 10 just for its soundtrack, that OST is a thing of beauty that has yet to be matched.

It was matched and surpassed by Nier.

Also, the battle music of Chrono Cross being so terrible - the song that you have to hear the most in the game - alone should drop it to a 9. I was so annoyed by it I had to mute the game at times.

I read the Chrono Cross justification to see if they were telling the truth in the headline. They did not. The article is bullshit without telling the real story on how it got a 10/10.

Jeff Gerstmann told the story several times as to why it got a 10/10 and it was even linked here. I was kind of hoping they would come clean providing me a reason to check the rest of the list out. If they can't be honest with CC then I can't be bothered to continue reading.

Even though this is my favorite game of that gen I acknowledge it as a guilty pleasure because it is not perfect, which is what 10/10s should be.

What is the real story on why it got a 10/10? I know they couldn't have played it to the end and saw that the story was revealed in giant text dumps on the beach and still thought it was worthy of a 10.

 

[Ishida]

It was matched and surpassed by Nier.

Also, the battle music of Chrono Cross being so terrible - the song that you have to hear the most in the game - alone should drop it to a 9. I was so annoyed by it I had to mute the game at times.



What is the real story on why it got a 10/10? I know they couldn't have played it to the end and saw that the story was revealed in giant text dumps on the beach and still thought it was worthy of a 10.

Nier's OST pales in comparison to Chrono Cross'.

 

[FF Seraphim]

The only 10s on that list that I agree with are both made by Nintendo and they damn well deserve that score

 

[Cyros]

It was matched and surpassed by Nier.

Also, the battle music of Chrono Cross being so terrible - the song that you have to hear the most in the game - alone should drop it to a 9. I was so annoyed by it I had to mute the game at times.



What is the real story on why it got a 10/10? I know they couldn't have played it to the end and saw that the story was revealed in giant text dumps on the beach and still thought it was worthy of a 10.

I'm probably forgetting some details, but it was outsourced to a freelancer who gave it the 10. Gerstmann looked at it, and without having played it himself turned to another freelancer to look at the review and give his opinion. The second freelancer said Chrono Cross was a great game and stood by it.

After the review ran Gerstmann mentioned about another perfect game to the second freelancer who replied with something along the lines of them not saying the game was perfect. Not a happy Jeff afterwards.

 

[PSqueak]

Surprised to see enough nintendo games, not because they're not "worthy", but because reviewers seem to be biased against nintendo.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I can't help but notice that 4 out of 11 of these games came out in the past year or so...

 

[SolidSnakesMyStepDad]

The last of us isn't worthy of 10/10

...ummm

Spoiler

You actually read the list right.

 

[Breads]

What is the real story on why it got a 10/10? I know they couldn't have played it to the end and saw that the story was revealed in giant text dumps on the beach and still thought it was worthy of a 10.

They paid a freelancer playthrough the game and give them a rating. They turned in a 10/10. Jeff needed someone to corroborate the rating and as turns out someone on his staff was an experienced JRPG player and has already played the game themselves and they too gave it a 10/10. So they published a review and score.

The freelancer reads the review later and comes back to him and says, according to the story, "I never said the game was perfect". And sure enough, as time went on and more and more of them played it, it wasn't. I'm assuming they kept the score because they aren't in the business of changing scores after the fact. If they were this would have been a much more interesting topic. But no they continue to leave that part of the story out of the review and score.

 

[Dangansona]

MGS4 and its reception is the reason I'm staying well clear of 5. Which is probably a shame because there's every chance its a really good game.

You aren't playing a game because of positive reviews? OK.

 

[aspiegamer]

Can entirely agree with that list other than GTAIV (everyone who wrote a 10/10 review of it should be forced to issue a public apology) and Bayonetta 2 (have not played). Chrono Cross in particular is GOAT material that's always overlooked and fewer played because of its odd release window.

I greatly respect Gamespot for their sparing use of the 10/10 score, although having 4 of the 11 in the past 8 months alone is an awkward trend after a 4 year hiatus where there were plenty of great games around. It would actually be very interesting to see other media outlets go back and have similar retrospectives.

 

[klier]

MGS 4, Journey and GTA 4 are no 10.0 gamers at all.

 

[Fractology]

Holy hell the GTAIV hate on GAF is strong. While I can understand people being upset with "removal of features" from San Andreas, it was a different artistic tone for a different engine for a different generation. SA capped off that older GTA style perfectly. Why keep iterating on the same concepts? You turn into Saints Row. GTA SA feels like a cartoon in comparison to GTAIV. I loved SA but I remember back then feeling like that gameplay was getting rather old, even if there was so much to do. The aiming and gunplay in those OG GTAs weren't brilliant either.

I remember the beginning of GTA IV in one of those crazy memorable moments that stick with you forever. In particular I remember being so caught off guard with it's sense of weight and realism that something as simple as walking down the sidewalk blew my mind. When I actually shot someone for the first time in that game and the poor victim jerked back and slumped over a parked car, my own gut sank at a sense of how grossly realistic it seemed. And then you start to unravel that sense of grounded realism all the way out and it REALLY starts to blow you mind. And this was fucking April of 2008. Scoff all you want at characters you don't like or a shitty storyline, but that tech was absolutely unbelievable and groundbreaking and it's main storyline thread following the troubles of a fresh off the boat immigrant was pretty revolutionary.

What you guys seem to be calling "boring" is exactly the thing that sucked me into that world and didn't let go. It redefined the GTA aesthetic.

Blah blah...I had to say my peace here. This is coming from someone who 100%'d GTA SA too.

 

[Heypoppy]

Dark Souls is the only game I can think of that embodies everything a game could hope for: fun-expertly design gameplay and world, real emotion and a personal sensibility behind the direction. It's the only game I can think that deserves "the" perfect score

 

[AZ Greg]

MGSIV won the GOTY of GAF twice.

That has more to do with how GAF slants.

 

[trixx]

Bayonetta 2 and GTAIV are definitely not 10's in my book. Though to be honest I found out that I don't care too much for pure action games like Bayonetta

Also bayonetta 1 has so many god damn flaws, don't get me started on that game, It was good at best no where near 10 game

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

That has more to do with how GAF slants.

GTA4 sold 19 million copies outside of its launch window, and stayed in the top 20 list of 360 games played until GTA5 came out.

The amount of people who hate the game are vocal but small.

 

[Mohonky]

I have a hard time to get past the MGS4 intro...
OMG dose it ever end?!?!"?!

Haha I started watching a mate play it to see if this really was going to be the big deal. Never made it to the gameplay, walked out before the intro finished.

Interested in trying the series again with 5 on PC but the cutscenes, I dunno....

 

[Lothar]

GTA4 sold 19 million copies outside of its launch window, and stayed in the top 20 list of 360 games played until GTA5 came out.

The amount of people who hate the game are vocal but small.

How do you know? Did you poll the 19 million? I bought the game and hated it.

It's no surprise that the game sold so much looking at all the bullshit perfect and near perfect scores reviews gave it.

 

[joecanada]

Yeah I love GTA IV but I think it's the weakest in the series post-III. That said the weakest GTA game is still better than most games.

True but that 10 sticks out like a sore thumb though even as a gta fan, giving 4 a ten and no others? Vice city is still the goat. Such an absolutely shockingly good game at time. The mechanics didn't leap from 3 but the fun factor went through the roof

Four is like eating vanilla ice cream after rocky road and some other crazy good stuff. It has the satisfying manner but there's so much missing

 

[-COOLIO-]

GTA4 sold 19 million copies outside of its launch window, and stayed in the top 20 list of 360 games played until GTA5 came out.

The amount of people who hate the game are vocal but small.

Yup.

 

[Surface of Me]

The salt over GTA4 is impressive.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I will never understand getting worked up over scores for anything really.
Your basically going after someone's opinion that just happens to have a score at the end it.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

What are the complaints tho? Obviously every game has flaws. But its different when everytime somebody says mgs4 was amazing the reaction is "overhyped, etc, etc"

The game is seven years old at this point so those reasons have been stated over and over and over again. The most common (that I agree with are) that the game doesn't take enough time to fully introduce it's mechanics, stealthing through an active battlefield is really cool but that all disappears when Act 3 turns into a tailing mission that is more cutscene then gameplay. I didn't really think the Jeep section in MGS1 or the motorcycle section in MGS3 were very good but the one in MGS4 is worse and longer then both. The cutscenes break up the game far too often and the actual story content is downright insulting at times. Good moments are ruined by awful moments one after another, and the only satisfactory story arc was Otacon's (kind of) and Snakes...until it was ruined after the credits. None of the boss fights save for Laughing Octopus are very fun, cool or innovative and the Beauties are all just the same character. Drebin tells us about them after we beat them which is pretty pointless. Them being called Octopus, Raven, Wolf and Mantis to begin with is emblematic of the game itself - out of ideas and forced to dredge up the old to make new. The handwaving of "everything was nanomachines" has been shit on to death but going back and retroactively explaining things that didn't need to be explained like Vamp is a rather pointless exercise for a series that had mysticism and raising the dead as an accepted thing before. Everything having to do with romance. Everything having to do with Naomi. Sunny. FOXALIVE (ugh.) The Guns of the Patriots scene. Eva's character assassination. Raiden's character assassination. The Patriots being tricked by dumb shit all the time. The ludicrous Ocelot/Liquid plotline. Everything having to do with the Epilogue. There's just so, so much. I don't think they even should have tried setting a game after 2 to begin with, that was the first mistake.

That said there are a lot of good things about the game. Act 1 and 2 are good, the Ray vs Rex and final battles, while being egregious fanservice, are at least executed well. Snake and Otacon's arcs are done well compared to everyone else's. It's technologically and graphically impressive. But people dislike the game for a multitude of reasons.

 

[commish]

I will never understand getting worked up over scores for anything really.
Your basically going after someone's opinion that just happens to have a score at the end it.

Welcome to GAF. Enjoy your stay

Only game worthy of 10/10 is Minesweeper imo.

 

[HyperInuyasha]

I forgot how highly rated Super Mario Galaxy 2 was. Thinking back, that and the first Galaxy were the definite high points of the main Mario platforming series.

I also kinda disagree with GTA IV's 10/10, though that might be because of my personal preference for Red Dead Redemption and GTA V. I'm not really educated on the other games, so I'm not going to judge.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Welcome to GAF. Enjoy your stay

Only game worthy of 10/10 is Minesweeper imo.

I'm confused.

 

[grumble]

The game is seven years old at this point so those reasons have been stated over and over and over again. The most common (that I agree with are) that the game doesn't take enough time to fully introduce it's mechanics, stealthing through an active battlefield is really cool but that all disappears when Act 3 turns into a tailing mission that is more cutscene then gameplay. I didn't really think the Jeep section in MGS1 or the motorcycle section in MGS3 were very good but the one in MGS4 is worse and longer then both. The cutscenes break up the game far too often and the actual story content is downright insulting at times. Good moments are ruined by awful moments one after another, and the only satisfactory story arc was Otacon's (kind of) and Snakes...until it was ruined after the credits. None of the boss fights save for Laughing Octopus are very fun, cool or innovative and the Beauties are all just the same character. Drebin tells us about them after we beat them which is pretty pointless. Them being called Octopus, Raven, Wolf and Mantis to begin with is emblematic of the game itself - out of ideas and forced to dredge up the old to make new. The handwaving of "everything was nanomachines" has been shit on to death but going back and retroactively explaining things that didn't need to be explained like Vamp is a rather pointless exercise for a series that had mysticism and raising the dead as an accepted thing before. Everything having to do with romance. Everything having to do with Naomi. Sunny. FOXALIVE (ugh.) The Guns of the Patriots scene. Eva's character assassination. Raiden's character assassination. The Patriots being tricked by dumb shit all the time. The ludicrous Ocelot/Liquid plotline. Everything having to do with the Epilogue. There's just so, so much. I don't think they even should have tried setting a game after 2 to begin with, that was the first mistake.

That said there are a lot of good things about the game. Act 1 and 2 are good, the Ray vs Rex and final battles, while being egregious fanservice, are at least executed well. Snake and Otacon's arcs are done well compared to everyone else's. It's technologically and graphically impressive. But people dislike the game for a multitude of reasons.

Good post. Major plot issues throughout.

 

[Cleve]

Man, I'll never get the Chrono Cross love. I had that game pre-ordered for months, took the week off of work for it and just wound disappointed and feeling it was lacking a single character I actually liked. It was such a colossal letdown for me as a CT fan and just finishing the amazing Xenogears.

I mean opinions and all that. I don't think the game is bad, but it's definitely nowhere close to perfect, which is what the rating meant at the time at GS.

 

[Neonsands]

A 10/10 list without Dragon's Dogma and Persona 4 is a trash list.

Nuh, list is OK. I'm not offended by it. I couldn't finish GTA IV though since it was so boring.

Persona 4 was by no means perfect on initial release. Golden might qualify, but should a remake qualify, especially because a few dumb aspects with plot and side characters are still there. I love the game to death, but would never have given release Persona 4 a perfect score.

 

[Manmademan]

Man, I'll never get the Chrono Cross love. I had that game pre-ordered for months, took the week off of work for it and just wound disappointed and feeling it was lacking a single character I actually liked. It was such a colossal letdown for me as a CT fan and just finishing the amazing Xenogears.

I mean opinions and all that. I don't think the game is bad, but it's definitely nowhere close to perfect, which is what the rating meant at the time at GS.

My big issue is that it completely flubs the "cast of thousands" concept. every single person reacts the same way, but with a slightly sillier accent. Very few additional characters matter outside of switching up battle strategy slightly.

compare CC to suikoden 2 which launched a year earlier with a larger cast and a vastly smaller budget and it gets obliterated.

 

[Everdred]

I've owned Chrono Cross for 10 years and I've never tried it... I should. I'm not even sure my TV has the right inputs anymore.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

How in the world as GTA IV a 10/10? That game was a massive step back from San Andreas in content, and in working gameplay. Running was awkward, driving was sluggish, and the missions offered little variety, the only one I remember genuinely liking a lot was the bank robbery.

It's better than III, but no other game after that.

Metal Gear Solid 4 is way too flawed for a 10 as well. Everything else I either haven't played or can respect.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

GTA4 sold 19 million copies outside of its launch window, and stayed in the top 20 list of 360 games played until GTA5 came out.

The amount of people who hate the game are vocal but small.

Yup.

I assume the two of you have evidence to back those claims right and who are you specifically referring to gamers or the casual audience?

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

MGS4 was awesome, that's what.

Deserves that 10 IMO.

The game sort of fell apart after Act 2 if I'm honest. The rest was good, but felt rushed compared to the first two Acts.

 

[Monocle]

I still don't understand how Bayonetta 1 has better mechanics than 2 outside of not having Urban Climax.

It's mostly subtle stuff that advanced players care about, like the timing of Bat Within, the weird limit to how quickly you can buffer attacks in panther form (in Bayonetta 1 you could use the panther to do a very fast variation of dodge offset that allowed you to pull out strong combo enders almost instantly), and the game's increased dependence on Witch Time time to create attack windows (rather than staggering enemies outside of Witch Time).

Supposedly Platinum meant for most of their system alterations to balance Umbran Climax, and it sort of backfired. Not to a degree that's meaningful to the average player, though. The controls still feel amazing.

But you are right that Bayonetta 2's flow is amazing. Its like no matter where you put it down you come back to what would other wise be the crescendo of any other quality game.

Yeah, every time I revisit the Bayonetta 2 I'm impressed all over again. It solved almost all of my complaints with the original. Platinum outdid themselves.

 

[cyber_ninja]

i don't get how witcher 3 got a 10 when something that makes up such a large part of the game is so mediocre, the combat. the main story also seemed to take a dive during the last 3rd, probably due to being stretched a bit thin

It's all about the hype.

 

[Kyou]

7 10/10s in 12 years

then 4 10/10s in under one year

 

[zero shift]

It's mostly subtle stuff that advanced players care about, like the timing of Bat Within, the weird limit to how quickly you can buffer attacks in panther form (in Bayonetta 1 you could use the panther to do a very fast variation of dodge offset that allowed you to pull out strong combo enders almost instantly), and the game's increased dependence on Witch Time time to create attack windows (rather than staggering enemies outside of Witch Time).

I don't know. I feel like its the classic "it isn't exactly like the previous so it is worse" type of deal. Sort of how every Smash is worse than Melee or every CounterStrike that isn't 1.6 is inferior for some reason.

 

[2+2=5]

This list perfectly reflects why i don't trust reviews at all, this list is completely console, trends and hype(/money) centric, where are all the old/pc/handhelds/rts/driving/whatever masterpieces? They don't have enough hype(/money) i guess.

Gamespot being somewhat so proud of the list to make an article tells a lot, and GTA4 having a 10 is really the worst joke ever.

GTA4 sold 19 million copies outside of its launch window, and stayed in the top 20 list of 360 games played until GTA5 came out.

The amount of people who hate the game are vocal but small.

Don't you know that:
a)people don't know the real quality of a game until they buy it or try the demo? Purchases are mostly hype and review driven.
b)haters bought the game too?

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Weakest mainline Metal Gear and worst mainline GTA after the release of GTA3 by a longshot both getting 10/10...yeah, I'll just play games for myself and these reviews certainly changed my mind on just how much people let themselves get overcome by hype to decide their reviews with.

 

[mikehandsdown]

Bayonetta 2 - .... temptation

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Weakest mainline Metal Gear and worst mainline GTA after the release of GTA3 by a longshot both getting 10/10...yeah, I'll just play games for myself and these reviews certainly changed my mind on just how much people let themselves get overcome by hype to decide their reviews with.

Or people have different opinions.

 

[ienjoyrawfish]

Or people have different opinions.

Or Gamespot are just an absolute joke and always have been.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Or Gamespot are just an absolute joke and always have been.

I don't understand. Do you just disagree with the reviewers at gamespot or is there some larger issue with gamespot that I missed?

 

[Sumio Mondo]

I don't understand. Do you just disagree with the reviewers at gamespot or is there some larger issue with gamespot that I missed?

Their reviews are a joke, that's the biggest issue of them all. They always underrate the great gems and overrate the "HYPE 101!!!!" games. IGN are pretty bad too, but Gamespot are definitely the worst.

 

[Fjordson]

How do you know? Did you poll the 19 million? I bought the game and hated it.

It's no surprise that the game sold so much looking at all the bullshit perfect and near perfect scores reviews gave it.

The game was consistently in the top 20 on the monthly Xbox Live activity charts for years after its release. It basically had a sizable dedicated player base all the way up to GTA V's release (which sold even more than IV). Was much more than just initial hype.

Obviously not everyone loved it, no game in history is enjoyed by everyone (especially ones that are played by tens of millions of people) but it's a classic to many.