Salty Hippo
Member
Can you justify why you think that? Because Bosman certainly coudn't.
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GameTrailers Top 10 Divisive Games (at the GT office)
- Thread starter WrenchNinja
- Start date
Can you justify why you think that? Because Bosman certainly coudn't.
I just don't think the world in LTTP is particularly interesting in the slightest. Out of all the Zelda games except the first two, LTTP probably has the most dull world. Usually when I think "adventure" I think of an exciting world full of interesting locals and full of interesting people that you interact with. What may have been mindblowing years ago doesn't impress me in the slightest. I said earlier I find Link's Awakening much more interesting and find it's world much better. Not to mention I find the dungeons in LTTP pretty weak in puzzle design compared to many other Zelda games.
Mushroomer25
Member
Finally got around to watching this. Even though I agree with every one of Bosman's points on BioShock (the choices are meaningless, entire last act is terrible, symbolism is overbearing) - I still think the game is an all-time classic. Rapture as an environment is astounding, the atmosphere is chilling, and even the combat has moments of such organic tension. Even if the writing is hamfisted, ancelary characters are well realized. Adored my time with it, and I remember it fondly.
BioShock Infinite is better in almost every regard.
Yup. I played them back to back with Infinite first. Original Bioshock is badly designed in many portions and just not as good. One thing that I noticed was how awful the sound design was which is something I have never noticed in any other game.
shinobi602
Member
Ian's beef with TLOU not giving you choice is strange. Should every game give the player a choice in how the story unfolds? I don't want branching narratives and decision making in every game that I play...
Seems like a pointless thing to detract it for.
Seems like a pointless thing to detract it for.
brandonh83
Banned
I honestly thought most of the arguments they had about everything were pretty poorly presented. Mostly Kyle's against Bioshock and Zelda (each of these segments were cringe worthy), but while I'm with Ian about not caring for TLOU, none of his points really resonated with mine. Which is fine, but I'm with you, not everything needs to be choice based, in fact I think stories are much better when they're written by a storyteller with focus instead of an open ended thing where it feels like it wasn't written by a writer that has a strong feeling about how something should play out.
I actually prefer stories with pre-determined events as it just feels more solid to me but there's room for both.
GametimeUK
Member
Where to begin? For a start you shouldn't assume that yellow objects are the only method used to guide the character. Parts of the environment are just naturally designed to catch your attention. Naughty Dog even detail this in a video online.
You view the game as needing to have your in game partners needing to act like some sort of burden, but what if they just wanted to tell a story, have the relationships between characters and NOT have you burdened by them in the actual game? Would babysitting them make the game better? For me it wouldn't. I like it feeling like I'm playing single player, not coop with an AI. They are good window dressing, offer a few features in combat and drive character building. They are balanced for the experience.
Chest high walls doesn't mean the game is well crafted? Erm... Yes it does. Would you rather have a fully realistic setting or something that is a fun space to play in? Once again, it's a game at the end of the day and you need these arenas for the combat. I'd rather have interesting layouts and chest high walls instead of a real layout where none of the mechanics will work. Can you give an example of some of the games where it isn't obvious?
And yeah, that's fine for Ian to not like the game because of that reason, but I'm just merely pointing out it doesn't make the game bad. We don't always need freedom and choice in our games to the extent of Skyrim. Gaming is big enough to provide us linear experiences too that tell a story.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
The last thing TLOU needs is "player choice" in the narrative. It's a deliberately and exceptionally well constructed linear narrative following a set protagonist and cast through a locked character and story arc, and that's its greatest strength by far.
The technical/presentation faults in play for a game that props up narrative and believability as so important are a much more agreeable direction for criticism, as that is what the game is trying to accomplish most and thus the most obvious point of analysis. Case in point; AI buddies running around like morons, bumping into clickers and enemies, and the game not responding convincingly. Balance is an extremely difficult thing to do, and it would be awful if the game was crushingly difficult, but this is a highlighted detriment to the overall vision as it's where the interactive medium and focus on story telling suddenly clash and have potential to throw the player out of the experience. Same goes for dumb enemy AI.
The technical/presentation faults in play for a game that props up narrative and believability as so important are a much more agreeable direction for criticism, as that is what the game is trying to accomplish most and thus the most obvious point of analysis. Case in point; AI buddies running around like morons, bumping into clickers and enemies, and the game not responding convincingly. Balance is an extremely difficult thing to do, and it would be awful if the game was crushingly difficult, but this is a highlighted detriment to the overall vision as it's where the interactive medium and focus on story telling suddenly clash and have potential to throw the player out of the experience. Same goes for dumb enemy AI.
Really great video, I hope they do more of these.
Kyle was spot on with Bioshock, it really is an amazing world wasted on a horrible game. The combat is so painfully bad.
His arguments on Zelda was strange though. Really really strange. I'm sad to see that he defended Borderlands 2 also.
Ian clearly don't like the genre so his critique against TLOU fell flat.
Kyle was spot on with Bioshock, it really is an amazing world wasted on a horrible game. The combat is so painfully bad.
His arguments on Zelda was strange though. Really really strange. I'm sad to see that he defended Borderlands 2 also.
Ian clearly don't like the genre so his critique against TLOU fell flat.
A Black Falcon
Member
Decent video, but some of the for and against arguments are stronger than others. LttP is the one that I care about the most here, and while the game absolutely has a bunch of issues, I don't think Bosman does a great job of covering them. Why does he spend so much of the few minutes he's got talking about Link's origin story, that doesn't seem like a particularly important point. He does mention some of my biggest issues with the game. though. He is right that the game, compared to other Zelda games, is lacking that sense of adventure and exploration. There is some of it, but not as much as most Zelda games have.
First though, I do like LttP. Zelda is one of my favorite game series, and it's a pretty good game. It just isn't the best game, not even close. Many Zelda games are better , including, among the 2d games, LA and both GBC games, on my list. I like Illusion of Gaia and maybe also Landstalker more than LttP, too, for 4th-gen action-adventure games. Still, it's a pretty good game and I did finish it.
Anyway, issues:
- The art design is not great. I've always disliked LttP's look. Cartoony graphics are fine, but these aren't good looking cartoon-style graphics. The sprites look ugly, and environments look only okay. In terms of art design, it's one of the weaker-looking Zelda games, down there with stuff like Minish Cap (somehow that games' look just never worked for me). The sprites are worse than the environments, but environments don't look great either.
- The world is perhaps the most boring in the entire franchise. LttP's world is a central castle surrounded by a circle of themed rectangular areas. It's a rote, blocky (on the map) layout with no variation. Going from place to place doesn't take long, so the overworld feels less interesting and relevant than it is in the NES games or the GB/GBC games. Now, I admit, OoT does have a somewhat similar design in theory, and I absolutely love that one, but I think it's better executed there. There's much more to do in the world in OoT, the towns are actually interesting (this is not true in LttP!), looking at the environments is nice in a way it isn't really in LttP, etc. LttP is kind of boring to explore most of the time.
- The game still has some of those really annoying NES-like parts where you have to figure stuff out with no real ingame clues. I don't want to go through my whole list of these now (that stupid item hidden near one of the towers, several of the medallions, and such. were huge pains to find), and I know fans of the game disagree, but I really don't like that kind of stuff, and it's not good here. Probably the worst moment was when I got to the bottom of a dungeon, only to find that I needed an item that the game had never mentioned up to that point and doesn't say the location of. So I went to a guide, eventually figured out where the stupid thing was, went back, and of course had to redo the dungeon from scratch because that's how this game works. And on that note...
- The dungeons are annoyingly designed and far too linear. In most other Zelda games, dungeons often have some kind of central hub, or areas you unlock as you go that you then access later with the item from that dungeon. LttP has some of that, but it has a LOT of dungeons made up of linear paths you must follow. If you then die you'll have to redo most everything because the game doesn't have enough complex dungeon designs, shortcuts, and such that you expect from Zelda dungeons. This makes the game harder and less fun than the Zelda games that follow it. The NES games are also really hard, of course, but I like the still quite tough, but not as cruel, design of the GB or N64 games better.
- The story is bad and uninteresting. "Rescue the kidnapped girls!" No, come up with a better plot, Miyamoto... it starts out okay, but then devolves into a very basic rescue story. The dark-world aspect is kind of interesting, at the beginning when you're first put there especially, but past that the dark world is very similar to the light one. Along the way there are more and slightly better side characters than the NES games, but it's still mostly bland stuff. All later Zelda games have vastly better writing than this game, and it holds it back. Maybe if the story had been as interesting as the one in the LttP comic in Nintendo Power it could have been something a little better... but it isn't.
- And last and I'm sure not least, because I had a GB in the '90s but not a SNES, I don't have the nostalgia for LttP that I do for LA.
And that's why LttP is "only" A- game for me.
First though, I do like LttP. Zelda is one of my favorite game series, and it's a pretty good game. It just isn't the best game, not even close. Many Zelda games are better , including, among the 2d games, LA and both GBC games, on my list. I like Illusion of Gaia and maybe also Landstalker more than LttP, too, for 4th-gen action-adventure games. Still, it's a pretty good game and I did finish it.
Anyway, issues:
- The art design is not great. I've always disliked LttP's look. Cartoony graphics are fine, but these aren't good looking cartoon-style graphics. The sprites look ugly, and environments look only okay. In terms of art design, it's one of the weaker-looking Zelda games, down there with stuff like Minish Cap (somehow that games' look just never worked for me). The sprites are worse than the environments, but environments don't look great either.
- The world is perhaps the most boring in the entire franchise. LttP's world is a central castle surrounded by a circle of themed rectangular areas. It's a rote, blocky (on the map) layout with no variation. Going from place to place doesn't take long, so the overworld feels less interesting and relevant than it is in the NES games or the GB/GBC games. Now, I admit, OoT does have a somewhat similar design in theory, and I absolutely love that one, but I think it's better executed there. There's much more to do in the world in OoT, the towns are actually interesting (this is not true in LttP!), looking at the environments is nice in a way it isn't really in LttP, etc. LttP is kind of boring to explore most of the time.
- The game still has some of those really annoying NES-like parts where you have to figure stuff out with no real ingame clues. I don't want to go through my whole list of these now (that stupid item hidden near one of the towers, several of the medallions, and such. were huge pains to find), and I know fans of the game disagree, but I really don't like that kind of stuff, and it's not good here. Probably the worst moment was when I got to the bottom of a dungeon, only to find that I needed an item that the game had never mentioned up to that point and doesn't say the location of. So I went to a guide, eventually figured out where the stupid thing was, went back, and of course had to redo the dungeon from scratch because that's how this game works. And on that note...
- The dungeons are annoyingly designed and far too linear. In most other Zelda games, dungeons often have some kind of central hub, or areas you unlock as you go that you then access later with the item from that dungeon. LttP has some of that, but it has a LOT of dungeons made up of linear paths you must follow. If you then die you'll have to redo most everything because the game doesn't have enough complex dungeon designs, shortcuts, and such that you expect from Zelda dungeons. This makes the game harder and less fun than the Zelda games that follow it. The NES games are also really hard, of course, but I like the still quite tough, but not as cruel, design of the GB or N64 games better.
- The story is bad and uninteresting. "Rescue the kidnapped girls!" No, come up with a better plot, Miyamoto... it starts out okay, but then devolves into a very basic rescue story. The dark-world aspect is kind of interesting, at the beginning when you're first put there especially, but past that the dark world is very similar to the light one. Along the way there are more and slightly better side characters than the NES games, but it's still mostly bland stuff. All later Zelda games have vastly better writing than this game, and it holds it back. Maybe if the story had been as interesting as the one in the LttP comic in Nintendo Power it could have been something a little better... but it isn't.
- And last and I'm sure not least, because I had a GB in the '90s but not a SNES, I don't have the nostalgia for LttP that I do for LA.
And that's why LttP is "only" A- game for me.
Yeah, the world design in LttP is somewhat shockingly boring for a Zelda game. No other Zelda game has "here is center box, here are other region boxes surrounding it, that is all there is to the world". Even OoT has some side areas, multiple connected areas off of each path, etc. And LA's fantastic world design absolutely crushes LttP, because it feels like an actual world, not something laid out on a grid to fill up space in a game.
Chandler X Bing
Member
People who are really railing at Bosman for his choice of LTTP need to hear more Final Bosmans and just general Kyle Bosman stuff. It makes sense if you hear more from the guy, he's crazy about context and the overall presentation of a game as a cohesive package. He puts a lot of weight into giving you and your character a consistent motivation, as well as a level of aesthetic consistency and context for environments.
Personally, I've always thought that Link's Awakening was more fun and interesting in its tone and execution.
Personally, I've always thought that Link's Awakening was more fun and interesting in its tone and execution.
While I don't agree with the whole Link living with his uncle not exploring thing, I agree with the rest. I really don't like A Link to the Past and I really don't think it deserves half the praise it gets. I tried it for the first time in 2007/2008 and it almost put me off the entire franchise. I really enjoyed both Ocarina of Time and Link's Awakening afterwards.
Salty Hippo
Member
This has become Revision History, the thread. The game is from 1992. It's stupid and unfair to trash a 25 year old game by the standards of following generations. ALLTP was a landmark title that elevated the bar for its genre sky high evolving and expanding upon its predecessor in every conceivable way. There was absolutely nothing like it when it came out.
I also find it funny that Mr. Context suggests in the video that a game where you start at a random spot with no weapon until a random old man randomly gives one to you makes more sense and has better sense of adventure than ALTTP because uncles and shit. He's very selective about when context should matter in a game. Loves nonsensical floating platforms in games like Crash and even Croc, hates Banjo-Kazooie's masterfully cohesive world design. K, Kyle.
I also find it funny that Mr. Context suggests in the video that a game where you start at a random spot with no weapon until a random old man randomly gives one to you makes more sense and has better sense of adventure than ALTTP because uncles and shit. He's very selective about when context should matter in a game. Loves nonsensical floating platforms in games like Crash and even Croc, hates Banjo-Kazooie's masterfully cohesive world design. K, Kyle.