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Gay marriage ban passes in Missouri

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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/04/national/04CND-GAYS.html
August 4, 2004
Missourians Back Ban on Same-Sex Marriage
By MONICA DAVEY


T. LOUIS, Aug. 4 — Missouri voters on Tuesday overwhelmingly approved an amendment to the State Constitution barring gay marriage, becoming the first state to answer what has become a growing question since same-sex marriage became legal in Massachusetts.

With 100 percent of precincts reporting, the amendment had garnered 70.7 percent — or 1,054,235 votes — in unofficial totals.

Voters in at least 9 other states — and perhaps as many as 12 — are expected to consider similar amendments this fall, so advocates on both sides of the debate were intensely watching Missouri's results, anxious about what they might say about voters elsewhere in the weeks ahead.

"What happens in Missouri will be looked at by people across the country," said Seth Kilbourn, the national field director for the Human Rights Campaign, a Washington group that worked against the proposed amendment in Missouri with more than $100,000 for television advertisements, telephone banks and polling.

Vicky Hartzler, a spokeswoman for the Coalition to Protect Marriage in Missouri, which pressed for the amendment with church functions, yard signs and a "marriage chain" of rallies across the state, said she hoped the outcome would send a loud message to the rest of the country: "Here in the heartland we have a heart for families, and this is how deeply we feel about marriage."

The gay marriage question drew a heavy turnout on Tuesday to an election that also produced a surprising result in the race for governor. Late Tuesday night, Gov. Bob Holden conceded defeat to Claire McCaskill, the state auditor, in the Democratic primary. It was the first time a sitting governor lost a primary in the last decade. Ms. McCaskill will face Matt Blunt, the secretary of state, who won the Republican primary.

In Missouri, as in more than 30 other states, a state statute already defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman. But Ms. Hartzler and others said they feared that a state provision might not be enough for a court somewhere, given the decision last November by Massachusetts' highest court that gay marriage was not prohibited under that state's Constitution.

"This wasn't a battle we sought out," Ms. Hartzler said. "It was brought on us in Missouri by what happened there."

If the fight began elsewhere, it has also sometimes been waged with the help of groups from other parts of the country. Opponents of the Missouri measure spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, while supporters said they spent far less.

Many voters on both sides said Tuesday that they expected the ban to be approved. Missouri has often been described as a reflection of the entire country because of its blend of Southern and Northern, of tiny farming towns and large cities like Kansas City and St. Louis. Much of the state is socially traditional and old-fashioned, said Matthew Byer, 37, as he left his polling place in Ladue, a wealthy western suburb of St. Louis.

"Myself, I don't think it's right," Mr. Byer said of the amendment. "It is embarrassing to me that I think this is going to pass because of fears and because of concerns about what same-sex marriage would mean to married people. It doesn't affect them in any way, shape or form."

In some polling places, there was confusion. In Woodson Terrace, a northwest suburb of St. Louis, Norma Gladman, 76, said she opposed same-sex marriage but was not sure quite what to think of changing the state's Constitution.

"Isn't there already a ban?" Ms. Gladman asked her friends as they walked into the polling place.

A few people said they felt rattled by the wording of the amendment: "Shall the Missouri Constitution be amended so that to be valid and recognized in this state, a marriage shall exist only between a man and a woman?" Some paused and worried aloud as they left the polling place whether their "yes" or "no" vote had accurately reflected their intent.

Others, on each side, were certain.

In Ladue, Lindsay Goldford, a 20-year-old college student, said her Christian background and beliefs were the basis of her support for an amendment. "When you look at marriage, it's between a man and a woman," Ms. Goldford said. "Biblically, homosexuality isn't in the plan."

And outside a polling place also in Ladue, two longtime friends learned on Tuesday that they did not agree.

Mary Klostermeier, 77, said she saw the need to bar gay marriage. "I guess I'm in the old school," Ms. Klostermeier said. "I'm just a very religious person."

But her friend Gene Gabianelli, 72, said he had voted against a ban. "People should do what they want to do," Mr. Gabianelli said. "This whole thing is all about politics as far as I can tell — all about mobilizing people for George Bush."

In fact, local political leaders here had fought over the timing of amendment. Some Republicans had pressed to hold the vote in November, during the general election. Democrats, who had more competitive primary races on Tuesday, pushed to hold it now.

"The political calculus that has been made by the Bush people is that more people will turn out from the far right conservative base with this issue on the ballot," Mr. Kilbourn said. "This is all about the politics of distraction. It distracts from the economy, the job losses, the issues people care about."

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, said the wave of amendments around the country had come because "the American people want to protect the institution of marriage. That's what's driving this whole thing."

Indeed, Mr. Perkins said, he believed the amendments would pass in every state where they are weighed this fall.

Louisiana plans a vote on a marriage amendment on Sept. 18. In November, people in Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, Montana, Oklahoma, Oregon and Utah are expected to consider similar measures. Ballot initiatives are awaiting approval in Michigan, North Dakota and Ohio. Four states — Alaska, Hawaii, Nebraska and Nevada — already passed constitutional amendments banning gay marriage before the Massachusetts ruling.

Depressing, but hardly surprising. The right has no chance of winning this issue nationally in the long term, thank God.
 
"But her friend Gene Gabianelli, 72, said he had voted against a ban. "People should do what they want to do," Mr. Gabianelli said. "This whole thing is all about politics as far as I can tell — all about mobilizing people for George Bush."

This dude rocks.
 

MaddenNFL64

Member
It's just a matter of time. these set in stone morals will get less & less powerful as the years pass, and more progressive thoughts prevail.

Or maybe i'm fooling myself & we'll be a theocracy in 10 years :p.
 

Makura

Member
Some people on both sides of the issue seem to be leveraging it for political gain, but to say that's all this is about is oversimplifying the matter IMO.

I think marriage between two men or two women is wrong, I don't think it actually qualifies as a marriage, but I'm undecided as to what role the state should take in all this. I'm uneasy about the government being involved in such personal matters.
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
The country's pretty split right now... but our view of homosexuality as a nation has changed so much in the last two decades alone I wouldn't be surprised if it strongly slants in favor of allowing gay marriages ten years from now.

edit - that newspaper clipping set back my optimism quite a bit.
 
This state disgusts me sometimes:
h8theworld.jpg


That was in my local paper last week. It's depressing how idiotic people can be sometimes.
 
Oh my God...that was actually printed in a newspaper? In recent history? That is the most pathetic display I have ever witnessed.
 
Flaming Duck said:
This state disgusts me sometimes:
h8theworld.jpg


That was in my local paper last week. It's depressing how idiotic people can be sometimes.

How can they even get away with printing sh!t like that?

That AIDS only happens in gays sh!t is still in some peoples minds too? It's days like this that i'm glad i'm not at all religious.
 
You should pay for your own advertisment to ban shrimp, make woman stay away from men during menstration, and other ridiculus laws in the bible. Do they know that Jesus never said anything about gays?
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Stuff like this makes me really, really despise Christianity.
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
ConfusingJazz said:
You should pay for your own advertisment to ban shrimp, make woman stay away from men during menstration, and other ridiculus laws in the bible. Do they know that Jesus never said anything about gays?

or the proper financial compensation for raping another man's daughter? I always found that one hilarious, financial compensation.

Dan,

Don't blame christianity... I'm not one, but that isn't fair.
 
Yup, that was actually printed last week. It was paid for by a citizen and inserted like an ad, so I guess they really had no choice but to run it. Hell, they probably even agreed with it. It made me realize that I don't have a problem with people saying "I oppose gay marriages due to my religion." I'd much rather them say that then spread these "facts".
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
levious said:
Don't blame christianity... I'm not one, but that isn't fair.
Oh, I know it's not fair, it's just an infinite source of frustration for me. So much of it promotes so much ignorance and intolerance, and I seem to constantly stumble into Christians who have no problem preaching to me for hours but the moment I say I'm athiest they scream at about not shoving my views on them and how they're personally offended at my position. I really cannot stand so much of it. I had a couple close friends who've become pretty hardcore Christian over the last couple years and they're just so intolerant now. It's distressing to me.
 

darscot

Member
Where are these harsh religous freaks at the legalize pot rallies. Genisis 1:12 - everything that bares a seed is yours to use. Also there is a bit on Samsus burning his ropes of hemp in celabration. Not sure where in the Bible that is though.
 

Lathentar

Looking for Pants
I have a question. When do you stop being tolerant?

In that newspaper article they mentioned:
Polygamy
Marriage to Children
Marriage to other Species

In my opinion all that is wrong, but other people would disagree.
 

darscot

Member
Why do people suddenly lose all common sense when it comes to this kind of thing. It's not too difficult to draw the line a marriage is a legal contract. A child can't enter in to one. Neither can the family pet. If you want to have a few wifes and can pull it off all the power to you. Wow that was hard.
 

Makura

Member
ConfusingJazz said:
You should pay for your own advertisment to ban shrimp, make woman stay away from men during menstration, and other ridiculus laws in the bible. Do they know that Jesus never said anything about gays?

He also didn't talk about alot of other things that God views as evil.

And he said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


- Matthew 5:17-19
 

FnordChan

Member
Makura said:
Here is the article on the Netherlands study I believe is cited in that image:

http://24.104.4.225/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp

"MARRIAGE IS SLOWLY DYING IN SCANDINAVIA. A majority of children in Sweden and Norway are born out of wedlock. Sixty percent of first-born children in Denmark have unmarried parents. Not coincidentally, these countries have had something close to full gay marriage for a decade or more."

"Not coincidentally" my entire ass.

FnordChan, who will be attending a lesbian marriage in Boston this weekend.
 

fart

Savant
But her friend Gene Gabianelli, 72, said he had voted against a ban. "People should do what they want to do," Mr. Gabianelli said. "This whole thing is all about politics as far as I can tell — all about mobilizing people for George Bush."
you're a smart man mr gabianelli.
 

Makura

Member
I wouldnt say the comment makes him look smart, it makes him look skeptical, which is good, but he's oversimplifying the situation IMO.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Makura said:
I wouldnt say the comment makes him look smart, it makes him look skeptical, which is good, but he's oversimplifying the situation IMO.

Exactly what is so complicated about blatant bigotry being written into a state constitution? It tells one segment of the population that they're not entitled to the same rights as others due to their sexual orientation.
 

border

Member
darscot said:
Where are these harsh religous freaks at the legalize pot rallies. Genisis 1:12 - everything that bares a seed is yours to use..
They'd probably just point out that you are not quoting the verse correctly.

"The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."
 

Makura

Member
xsarien said:
Exactly what is so complicated about blatant bigotry being written into a state constitution? It tells one segment of the population that they're not entitled to the same rights as others due to their sexual orientation.

I was addressing his claim that it's all a political farce under the guise of pandering to the right's focus on family values.
 

Makura

Member
border said:
They'd probably just point out that you are not quoting the verse correctly.

"The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."

Nah, I believe scripture is pretty clear about not rejecting anything God has made. Intoxication for the sake of it is described as sinful, but not the substance itself if I recall correctly.
 
I'm so glad I moved out of that area (Texas, Oklahoma, the rest of the south). I would expect other states to do the same, and it's just not worth it to live in such an area. Meh. I honestly hope that somehow we can get passed this issue and not have people becoming so bitter over it.
 
In more positive news, a Seattle court ruled in favor of gay marriage.

Seattle Judge Rules for Gay Marriages
Seattle Judge Rules in Favor of Same-Sex Marriages; Decision Stayed Until Supreme Court Ruling

The Associated Press



SEATTLE Aug. 4, 2004 — Gay couples can be married under Washington state law, because denying their right to do so is a violation of their constitutional rights, a judge ruled Wednesday.

"The denial to the plaintiffs of the right to marry constitutes a denial of substantive due process," King County Superior Court Judge William L. Downing said in his ruling.




His decision is stayed until the state Supreme Court reviews the case, meaning no marriage licenses can be issued until then, said Jennifer Pizer, lead counsel in the case for Lambda Legal Defense in the case.

"Judge Downing saw the couples in the courtroom and he's recognized that they are full and equal citizens of Washington. No more and no less," Pizer said.

Washington is one of 38 states with laws defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Under a state high court ruling, Massachusetts has allowed gay marriage since May.

The Washington state couples challenged the state's Defense of Marriage Act, which restricts marriage to one man and one woman.

Arguing for the couples, attorney Bradley Bagshaw told Downing at a hearing last month that the act violates the state constitution by depriving same-sex couples of the same privileges and immunities as other residents, and by depriving them of life, liberty or property without due process of law.

Six couples filed the lawsuit in March after King County refused to grant them marriage licenses, and two other couples later joined the suit.

A second lawsuit was filed in April by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of 11 same-sex couples.

In his ruling, Downing criticized arguments that a ban on same-sex marriage would protect children from harm that may be caused by being raised in a nontraditional family.

"Although many may hold strong opinions on the subject, the fact is that there are no scientifically valid studies tending to establish a negative impact on the adjustment of children raised by an intact same-sex couple as compared with those raised by an intact opposite-sex couple," Downing wrote.

He concluded that excluding same-sex partners from civil marriage "is not rationally related to any legitimate or compelling state interest."

King County Executive Ron Sims, a defendant in the lawsuit, said the ruling was a powerful affirmation of equal rights.

"I think marriage is an incredibly wonderful institution and that people who love each other should be allowed to be involved in it," Sims said.

When first urged to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, Sims said he wouldn't do it because the licenses wouldn't have any legal meaning in a state that didn't recognize him. But he invited the couples to sue.
 

darscot

Member
I know the verse want right (I'm not into the Bible) but that's the basics of the passage. Or am I wrong? ALso you will notice that I did not use Quotes.
 

border

Member
God creates plants. He says that plants are good.

It's a pretty tenuous connection to say that that is really God's approval of marijuana. I wish it were closer to what you said, so it would be possible to throw it in someone's face every now and again...
 

darscot

Member
Any one know the bit about Samsus and his hemp? I've been told in some editions it's changed from hemp to strong rope? I've heard that God gives him the strength to break them then tells him to burn it in celebration. But it's all just second hand info?
 
darscot said:
Any one know the bit about Samsus and his hemp? I've been told in some editions it's changed from hemp to strong rope? I've heard that God gives him the strength to break them then tells him to burn it in celebration. But it's all just second hand info?

You do know you can smoke all the hemp thats grown for rope all you want, and you won't get high.
 

darscot

Member
Yes I'm aware of the difference between boys and girls. It's just a notable reference especially because some bibles remove the word hemp intentionaly. Just one of those strange edits of the bible.
 
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