Gay marriage salt thread

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How do you guys deal with dear family members that you love and care for yet they are conservative in their way of thinking? :(

I just keep my mouth shut and know they are wrong. I dont have the heart to tell them that as their faith is everything to them. How can you change their mind if they've been like that for so long? I think the only part of my family I would call out are cousins and friends my age. The older members can think whatever at this point.
 
excelsiorlef said:
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or

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Awesome, thanks!
 
jackissocool said:
Is any pace of progress acceptable? We take one win every five or ten years and we're on the right track? Why stick with the system that makes progress such a long and difficult struggle? Why tolerate all the oppression that exists just because we get these small scale victories?
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Yes
 
CrimzonSamurai said:
Sounds like they might advocate for a more... boisterous form of demonstration than relying on the democratic process to solve the issues.
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Hahaha boisterous is probably a decent way to put it. I would argue that we don't have an actual democratic process today and I would use boisterous means to achieve an actually democratic system.

Aselith said:
Yes
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Like telling a slave to thank his master for giving him a straw bed instead of a dirt floor instead of just overthrowing his master altogether.
 
jackissocool said:
Solid argument there, pal. Maybe once I grow up I'll be as smart and dismissive as you.
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Make no mistake, I didn't make an argument. I am being dismissive, because I don't think your point is worthy of consideration from my particular perspective.

I want to discuss the ins and outs of chess, and you want to flip the board altogether and discuss why the pieces are limited to those particular moves in the first place. I don't see that as productive. As I said, by all means, carry on. You don't have to take anything from my posts -- my original reply assumed we were playing chess, if you will.

The problem is that you have no concept of which game should replace Chess.
 
jackissocool said:
The status quo being capitalism. They do it by giving minor concessions like this. Is gay marriage really a change in the status quo? It was inevitable step and they delayed it as long as they possibly could and now act like the heroes who swept in and saved the day.
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How old are you? Old enough to remember a time when "queers" (and I'm not talking the ones that just happen to label themselves as queers, but "queers" as in "smear the queer") were beaten, dragged behind trucks just for being gay?

Were you around when sailors in the Navy were being stabbed with forks because they were "out"? Hell, were you there when service members were being dishonorably discharged just for being gay?Up until literally a year ago, my husband was afraid to tell people in his office he was gay (and married to a dude) because, even though by that time Don't Ask Don't Tell had been repealed, he'd lived with the fear that someone find out for the last 20+ years that he was gay and they discharge him. He'd lose everything he'd worked for.

I really want to know. How the fuck old are you, really? Because if you didn't live through that history, you need to shut up about "it was inevitable". You have no clue what you're talking about.

This was NOT an inevitability up until, *at most* 10 years ago. I mean, for fucks sake, DOMA was just fully repealed within the last couple years (And Don't Ask Don't Tell, as I said above).

You have good arguments for fighting for the minorities within the minorities and even about capitalism. Don't fuck up that argument by talking about things you VERY obviously have no clue about, like the LGBT history. I lived it. I don't want to hear it from you about what you "think" you know.

TheHeretic said:
The ideology itself was popular in left wing circles but not on the ground, where gay people wanted to live ordinary lives. American society would never have accepted liberationism, and it was defeated by the conservative argument. Rightly so, I think.
You are right that this is a conservative victory, though very few people know the history of the movement deeply enough to understand why.
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I know and understand why this really is a conservative victory - we're heteronomatizing ourselves. That's the thing though - that's what most of us want.
 
jackissocool said:
So I guess your argument is that it wouldn't have gotten anywhere? I just want to be sure I know what you're saying.
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Well I think it would have lost and deserved to lose, if thats what you mean. I understand the appeal, but liberationism was incredibly radical and whilst the gay movement stuck with it defeat was inevitable. Gay marriage wasn't even popular with gay people for a long time, until that ideology was brought down.
 
Aselith said:
Ok, you go first in the revolution. Which capitol do you want to burn down first?
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I don't know, why don't you ask the 800 million people alive now who will starve to death? Or the 2.5 billion who don't have access to sanitary water? Or the people who will be bombed to death by western militaries for living in an area with oil? Or the children forced to work in sweat shops? Or the slaves who mine for precious materials and pick chocolate in Africa?

I guess a revolution for them is too inconvenient for you, huh? But you can feel good about yourself cause gay people can get married. Let's just take what we can get and forget about the rest.

BamfMeat said:
How old are you? Old enough to remember a time when "queers" (and I'm not talking the ones that just happen to label themselves as queers, but "queers" as in "smear the queer") were beaten, dragged behind trucks just for being gay?

Were you around when sailors in the Navy were being stabbed with forks because they were "out"? Hell, were you there when service members were being dishonorably discharged just for being gay?Up until literally a year ago, my husband was afraid to tell people in his office he was gay (and married to a dude) because, even though by that time Don't Ask Don't Tell had been repealed, he'd lived with the fear that someone find out for the last 20+ years that he was gay and they discharge him. He'd lose everything he'd worked for.

I really want to know. How the fuck old are you, really? Because if you didn't live through that history, you need to shut up about "it was inevitable". You have no clue what you're talking about.

This was NOT an inevitability up until, *at most* 10 years ago. I mean, for fucks sake, DOMA was just fully repealed within the last couple years (And Don't Ask Don't Tell, as I said above).

You have good arguments for fighting for the minorities within the minorities and even about capitalism. Don't fuck up that argument by talking about things you VERY obviously have no clue about, like the LGBT history. I lived it. I don't want to hear it from you about what you "think" you know.

I know and understand why this really is a conservative victory - we're heteronomatizing ourselves. That's the thing though - that's what most of us want.
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I don't think that things being terrible meant this wasn't inevitable. But I am young (21) and I haven't been through what you have so I won't assume I know the oppression you've experienced better than you do - I'm sorry if my comment was out of line. I'm getting a little fired up here. I've had a very political week and have been waiting for my chance to really go off on this particular issue.

It's great that gay marriage was passed. My concern is that this will lead to a huge drop in all other LGBT struggles because most people will think we've done it. I don't mean to dismiss this as legitimate progress. I think of it like civil rights - that was obviously, great, concrete progress. But it was done under the rules of an oppressive system that resented it and now racism is still alive and well and even getting stronger because the liberal ruling class movement coopted a radical people's movement and stifled long term liberation.
 
jackissocool said:
Sure, theoretically. But I don't trust liberal politicians one bit to be sincere. They are opportunistic and deceptive because their goal is maintaining the status quo and will do whatever it takes to achieve that. Hillary is now pro gay marriage because it suits her hyper corporate agenda - it co-opts true efforts for queer liberation and turns it into a liberal bourgeois movement that seeks to give wealthy gay white people a space in the ruling class as a concession that will slow and weaken efforts at actually abolishing systematic sources of oppression.

Maybe it's more important to say that it's irrelevant whether or not Obama or Clinton are bigots - all that matters is that their policies ultimately create a more stable and bearable form of oppression rather than end oppression.
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...Oh.

BamfMeat said:
How old are you? Old enough to remember a time when "queers" (and I'm not talking the ones that just happen to label themselves as queers, but "queers" as in "smear the queer") were beaten, dragged behind trucks just for being gay?

Were you around when sailors in the Navy were being stabbed with forks because they were "out"? Hell, were you there when service members were being dishonorably discharged just for being gay?Up until literally a year ago, my husband was afraid to tell people in his office he was gay (and married to a dude) because, even though by that time Don't Ask Don't Tell had been repealed, he'd lived with the fear that someone find out for the last 20+ years that he was gay and they discharge him. He'd lose everything he'd worked for.

I really want to know. How the fuck old are you, really? Because if you didn't live through that history, you need to shut up about "it was inevitable". You have no clue what you're talking about.

This was NOT an inevitability up until, *at most* 10 years ago. I mean, for fucks sake, DOMA was just fully repealed within the last couple years (And Don't Ask Don't Tell, as I said above).

You have good arguments for fighting for the minorities within the minorities and even about capitalism. Don't fuck up that argument by talking about things you VERY obviously have no clue about, like the LGBT history. I lived it. I don't want to hear it from you about what you "think" you know.

I know and understand why this really is a conservative victory - we're heteronomatizing ourselves. That's the thing though - that's what most of us want.
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Great post. Thank you.

jackissocool said:
I don't know, why don't you ask the 800 million people alive now who will starve to death? Or the 2.5 billion who don't have access to sanitary water? Or the people who will be bombed to death by western militaries for living in an area with oil? Or the children forced to work in sweat shops? Or the slaves who mine for precious materials and pick chocolate in Africa?

I guess a revolution for them is too inconvenient for you, huh? But you can feel good about yourself cause gay people can get married. Let's just take what we can get and forget about the rest.
Click to expand...
Textbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation
 
jackissocool said:
I don't know, why don't you ask the 800 million people alive now who will starve to death? Or the 2.5 billion who don't have access to sanitary water? Or the people who will be bombed to death by western militaries for living in an area with oil? Or the children forced to work in sweat shops? Or the slaves who mine for precious materials and pick chocolate in Africa?

I guess a revolution for them is too inconvenient for you, huh? But you can feel good about yourself cause gay people can get married. Let's just take what we can get and forget about the rest.
Click to expand...

Your unfocused rage is fantastic and all but where should we head first? We gonna do China or which African country should we head to first? I mean we need a battle plan here first. Maybe we should storm Washington first and then some years down the road when our civil war calms we can hit up the other countries?

I'm ready to lock and load. Go get the van!
 
I'd just like to point out that it's really funny how, after pages and pages and pages of salt from the right, we have salt from the left occurring in this very thread. That's rare salt. That's like, Hawaiian black sea salt.
 
BamfMeat said:
How old are you? Old enough to remember a time when "queers" (and I'm not talking the ones that just happen to label themselves as queers, but "queers" as in "smear the queer") were beaten, dragged behind trucks just for being gay?

Were you around when sailors in the Navy were being stabbed with forks because they were "out"? Hell, were you there when service members were being dishonorably discharged just for being gay?Up until literally a year ago, my husband was afraid to tell people in his office he was gay (and married to a dude) because, even though by that time Don't Ask Don't Tell had been repealed, he'd lived with the fear that someone find out for the last 20+ years that he was gay and they discharge him. He'd lose everything he'd worked for.

I really want to know. How the fuck old are you, really? Because if you didn't live through that history, you need to shut up about "it was inevitable". You have no clue what you're talking about.

This was NOT an inevitability up until, *at most* 10 years ago. I mean, for fucks sake, DOMA was just fully repealed within the last couple years (And Don't Ask Don't Tell, as I said above).

You have good arguments for fighting for the minorities within the minorities and even about capitalism. Don't fuck up that argument by talking about things you VERY obviously have no clue about, like the LGBT history. I lived it. I don't want to hear it from you about what you "think" you know.
Click to expand...

Yes, yes, yes, yes. YES....and also, YES.

I'm not that old. I'm only 28. But I remember being beaten up so badly one of my kidneys shut down because I was a "faggot." There were no rules on the books to protect me from hate crimes at my school. I was told by the administration, that it was my fault for being gay. If I wasn't SOOO gay, then they wouldn't have done this. They were threatened by my "gayness." (That lasted about ten minutes until my mom and dad came in and tore the entire principal staff a new one.)

I remember being that gay kid who had all of his ceramics projects (an entire semesters worth) broken into pieces. The person who did it was nice enough to arrange the broken pieces into the word "Fag."

So, anyone who sits there and says this was an inevitable day needs to get out some damn history books. We had to claw and fight and march and yell for this day. Some of us had to $(*&%$ bleed because of who we are. Some of us lost friends who slit their own wrists because they just so happened to be gay.

So, there is no way on earth this was an inevitable day. This was the result of a hell of a lot of people getting out there and taking one for the team over and over and over until finally, FINALLY, they made enough of a dent to start the ball of progress.

To spit on that just because all problems facing the LGBTQAI community aren't immediately solved is insulting to the people who made this day possible.

/gets off my soap box.
 
Morrigan Stark said:
...Oh.

Great post. Thank you.

Textbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation
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Definitely not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that the general system of "progress" now is extremely inefficient and part of an overall oppressive system. In order to have true liberation - for white middle class gays and starving children in Africa - you must have total liberation.
Aselith said:
Your unfocused rage is fantastic and all but where should we head first? We gonna do China or which African country should we head to first? I mean we need a battle plan here first. Maybe we should storm Washington first and then some years down the road when our civil war calms we can hit up the other countries?

I'm ready to lock and load. Go get the van!
Click to expand...

Is this honestly your argument against me? You think a revolution is impractical so we'll just take whatever scraps we can get from the ruling class? This shows an enormous lack of perspective on the conditions of most people in the world, which is utter destitution. Untold suffering is happening right now because people go "pish posh who needs revolution - I'll just write a letter to my senator!" This in spite of the fact that large scale social change has always occured with revolution or the very real threat of it.

If you actually want to know where I think a revolution will start? Probably India and Latin America, although I'd hesitate to make any concrete predictions because things can change quickly.

adam387 said:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. YES....and also, YES.

I'm not that old. I'm only 28. But I remember being beaten up so badly one of my kidneys shut down because I was a "faggot." There were no rules on the books to protect me from hate crimes at my school. I was told by the administration, that it was my fault for being gay. If I wasn't SOOO gay, then they wouldn't have done this. They were threatened by my "gayness." (That lasted about ten minutes until my mom and dad came in and tore the entire principal staff a new one.)

I remember being that gay kid who had all of his ceramics projects (an entire semesters worth) broken into pieces. The person who did it was nice enough to arrange the broken pieces into the word "Fag."

So, anyone who sits there and says this was an inevitable day needs to get out some damn history books. We had to claw and fight and march and yell for this day. Some of us had to $(*&%$ bleed because of who we are. Some of us lost friends who slit their own wrists because they just so happened to be gay.

So, there is no way on earth this was an inevitable day. This was the result of a hell of a lot of people getting out there and taking one for the team over and over and over until finally, FINALLY, they made enough of a dent to start the ball of progress.

To spit on that just because all problems facing the LGBTQAI community aren't immediately solved is insulting to this people who made this day possible.

/gets off my soap box.
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Like I said in my response to that post, I'm not dismissing this progress. But I'm saying that a real radical movement would have achieved more significant and lasting progress. This is great but if we stepped outside the bounds we set for ourselves in what we look at as acceptable means of protest and political action, more could have been done sooner. Or, at the very least, that the time for that radical action is getting closer.
 
adam387 said:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. YES....and also, YES.

I'm not that old. I'm only 28. But I remember being beaten up so badly one of my kidneys shut down because I was a "faggot." There were no rules on the books to protect me from hate crimes at my school. I was told by the administration, that it was my fault for being gay. If I wasn't SOOO gay, then they wouldn't have done this. They were threatened by my "gayness." (That lasted about ten minutes until my mom and dad came in and tore the entire principal staff a new one.)

I remember being that gay kid who had all of his ceramics projects (an entire semesters worth) broken into pieces. The person who did it was nice enough to arrange the broken pieces into the word "Fag."

So, anyone who sits there and says this was an inevitable day needs to get out some damn history books. We had to claw and fight and march and yell for this day. Some of us had to $(*&%$ bleed because of who we are. Some of us lost friends who slit their own wrists because they just so happened to be gay.

So, there is no way on earth this was an inevitable day. This was the result of a hell of a lot of people getting out there and taking one for the team over and over and over until finally, FINALLY, they made enough of a dent to start the ball of progress.

To spit on that just because all problems facing the LGBTQAI community aren't immediately solved is insulting to this people who made this day possible.

/gets off my soap box.
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I honestly wonder when activists will run out of letters to add to LGBT... Call me old fashioned, but we only ever needed four letters.
 
Ha i am a huge huge bleeding heart liberal. If there ever was a "christian holocaust" i would go and join the equivalent of the SS responsible for it in a second.
 
TheHeretic said:
I honestly wonder when activists will run out of letters to add to LGBT... Call me old fashioned, but we only ever needed four letters.
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My best friend and I often joke about this. Personally, I'm fine with LGBT. Her response is that, pretty soon, it's going to be LGBTQIAEIEIO-and-sometimes-Y.
 
jackissocool said:
Is this honestly your argument against me? You think a revolution is impractical so we'll just take whatever scraps we can get from the ruling class? This shows an enormous lack of perspective on the conditions of most people in the world, which is utter destitution. Untold suffering is happening right now because people go "pish posh who needs revolution - I'll just write a letter to my senator!" This in spite of the fact that large scale social change has always occured with revolution or the very real threat of it.

If you actually want to know where I think a revolution will start? Probably India and Latin America, although I'd hesitate to make any concrete predictions because things can change quickly.
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More just poking you a little bit to see what you are advocating for because you sound like a lunatic. Hopefully, you've just worked yourself into an incoherent rage though.
 
TheHeretic said:
I honestly wonder when activists will run out of letters to add to LGBT... Call me old fashioned, but we only ever needed four letters.
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I like to use queer because I just think of it as anything but straight CIS and it's a good reclaimed word. But I've recently seen the acronym GSRM (Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minorities) and like that quite a bit. I don't like the list acronym because it's annoying and inefficient and exclusive to anyone not in the list. GSRM is inclusive.

Aselith said:
More just poking you a little bit to see what you are advocating for because you sound like a lunatic. Hopefully, you've just worked yourself into an incoherent rage though.
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I'm definitely plenty angry. Sorry for getting worked up about injustice, I suppose. Does that offend you? Honestly, why do I sound like a lunatic? Because I say capitalism is bad? Or because I say things are really terrible and obviously what we're doing is working too slowly for all the people suffering and dying? Or something else. Explain it to me.

And this rage isn't unfocused, by the way - it's laser focused at the perpetrators of oppression, and I think that targeting it at groups you typically think of as the good guys is why you're uncomfortable with what I'm saying.
 
jackissocool said:
I don't know, why don't you ask the 800 million people alive now who will starve to death? Or the 2.5 billion who don't have access to sanitary water? Or the people who will be bombed to death by western militaries for living in an area with oil? Or the children forced to work in sweat shops? Or the slaves who mine for precious materials and pick chocolate in Africa?

I guess a revolution for them is too inconvenient for you, huh? But you can feel good about yourself cause gay people can get married. Let's just take what we can get and forget about the rest.
Click to expand...

Let's make the perfect the enemy of the good. If I can't have the goal today, what good are the incremental steps.
 
Badenergytroll said:
Ha i am a huge huge bleeding heart liberal. If there ever was a "christian holocaust" i would go and join the equivalent of the SS responsible for it in a second.
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I remember my edgy new atheist days. Trust me, kid, you don't want to be in a philosophical position where you openly advocate for genocide. The point of secular humanism is basically to encourage the belief that things like genocide are never "good" regardless of the impetus.
 
Badenergytroll said:
Ha i am a huge huge bleeding heart liberal. If there ever was a "christian holocaust" i would go and join the equivalent of the SS responsible for it in a second.
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I'm a dyed red in the wool liberal social democrat. I hate the death penalty. I hate violence. You, sir, can summarily go fuck yourself.
 
Darknight said:
How do you guys deal with dear family members that you love and care for yet they are conservative in their way of thinking? :(

I just keep my mouth shut and know they are wrong. I dont have the heart to tell them that as their faith is everything to them. How can you change their mind if they've been like that for so long? I think the only part of my family I would call out are cousins and friends my age. The older members can think whatever at this point.
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I mean, I don't have any problems calling any family member out on their bullshit, but if you can't do that, then just keep your distance as much as humanly possible, if only for the sake of your sanity. If a controversial subject comes up, you try and change it as quickly as possible, if that fails you bail.

Don't let these people bring you down.
 
plop said:
Let's make the perfect the enemy of the good. If I can't have the goal today, what good are the incremental steps.
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Except for most people in the world, this isn't the good. It's the good for a tiny minority while everyone else suffers. I'm not saying this is bad (I've made that pretty clear) but I'm saying that bu settling with what liberal politicians give us, we cripple ourselves. We aren't getting "the good" we're getting "the still really terrible awful but now a tiny bit less so". Why settle for that? Why not actually go for the good? Cause it's hard?

I'd say these aren't steps towards total liberation (the goal) because they often prolong the system. Now I'll never advocate for accelerationism because it's terrible and ineffective, but we need to be willing to aim higher and work harder for more. Things like this are important because they improve the conditions of some people but everyone still needs to stand in the fight for true liberation for all people.

Ragingbegal said:
Saw these guys at the Chicago Pride Parade today.
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Secretly gay is so good.
 
Darknight said:
How do you guys deal with dear family members that you love and care for yet they are conservative in their way of thinking? :(

I just keep my mouth shut and know they are wrong. I dont have the heart to tell them that as their faith is everything to them. How can you change their mind if they've been like that for so long? I think the only part of my family I would call out are cousins and friends my age. The older members can think whatever at this point.
Click to expand...

The struggle is real my friend. I am in the same boat, and it's pretty shitty sometimes.
 
jackissocool said:
I'm definitely plenty angry. Sorry for getting worked up about injustice, I suppose. Does that offend you? Honestly, why do I sound like a lunatic? Because I say capitalism is bad? Or because I say things are really terrible and obviously what we're doing is working too slowly for all the people suffering and dying? Or something else. Explain it to me.

And this rage isn't unfocused, by the way - it's laser focused at the perpetrators of oppression, and I think that targeting it at groups you typically think of as the good guys is why you're uncomfortable with what I'm saying.
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I wouldn't say "lunatic" but you sound like many politically frustrated people that believe in violent revolution as a means of mass social change. Historically, they have always failed to maintain lasting change, or even at the least to effect the changes they promised. The Communist Revolution in Russia did not succeed in increasing the average quality of life in Russia to any sufficient standard. I suppose if you consider a roof, food and water enough for people to be content with without guaranteeing eventual counter-revolution.

Lasting change requires stability, and in general violent revolutions based solely on ideologies don't result in social stability. That's why Stalin had to be Stalin and Mao had to be Mao, for stability.
 
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