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German Federal Elections 2017 |OT| Electing the new leader of the free world
- Thread starter Xando
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Until last month i never had a unlimited contract and i still work 40 to 50 hours a week. Can it be tough? Sure but it's nothing out of the ordinary.
Just ask the Japanese.
Not sure what kind of utopia you're living in but the days of 35h weeks are long over.
The issue isn't just about short-term solutions to the individual problems of countries like Greece. There is a larger picture. It's also about not setting a precedent. Violating EU contracts would mean that all EU contracts are actually negotiable beyond the terms that were presented to the public when the contracts were signed. There is no better way to undermine the image of the EU in the eyes of those who feel that they are being dragged into an ever-growing economic interweavement that they never voted for. This is the reason why Merkel was so resolute during the Greece situation in 2015. Let's not forget the reason the AfD was founded in the first place.
Let alone the fact that the EZB's current fiscal policies are extreme and out of control. Just a few examples:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtscha...lockerer-geldpolitik-aussteigen-14913960.html
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtscha...uf-mehr-als-800-milliarden-euro-14913439.html
http://www.handelsblatt.com/my/fina...-droht-das-grosse-bankensterben/19825552.html
You have to wonder who really hasn't learned from the crisis, given the crazy stuff Junker said last week:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtscha...infuehrung-in-allen-eu-laendern-15196158.html
Bitch Pudding
Member
Last time I checked we elect people to represent our very own interests. Although I work more than 50h a week on a regular basis and my wife's a nurse, I see now reason to vote for a party which addresses someone else's interest.
So, I'm very, very sorry that I'm a selfish brick who's going to vote for a party which I deem is more in line with my very own interests than yours.
But at the very least I'm not running around calling other people out because they have a different opinion.
Muffin1611
Banned
That isn't the problem, and saying the Japanese have it worse says absolutely nothing.
40-48 hours a week is normal. I know. But letting you work 12 hours one day and call you back in 6 hours later for another 12 is nothing current law allows. 8 is max and 10 is under circumstances.
They also want to scrap the part of it that say that between two work days you need at least a break of 10 hours.
It's easy to say "I like to work/ like to work whenever I want". That's not what work laws are about. You need to think about the extreme situations.
This would make it worse for quite a few, partly in industries like gastronomy where it's skimming the illegal now and then already.
So electing a government to legislate is about trying to put your own interests over everyone elses? Following that logic you can justify about anything. Including making it intentionally worse for the poor or even minorities as long as you benefit, in theory. Following that Republicans over in America are doing everything right in gutting healthcare or not touching it at all so their constituents who don't want to pay taxes for healthcare can continue doing so at the cost of people who need it.
I'm sorry, but if you think that's what a democracy or even a society is, then we disagree completely.
Haunted
Member
I think it's 100% ok to vote according to your own financial interests. I also think there's an argument to be made to not only vote for someone to represent your own interests but to vote for the party who you think has the best chance to lead society in a direction you agree with, independent from whether you benefit financially or not.
I think the major problem of the FDP is that their basic tenet of Selbstbestimmung and more freedom doesn't only apply to those Selbständige who could really use that freedom in productive ways, but it also enables fuckers in companies to really pressure and exploit their workforce.
In the end, it's a simple question of who to prioritise.
The current working laws are backwards AF.
Legally i'm breaking the law everyday because i check my emails in the evening and in the morning or when i work on sundays. The current laws just aren't compatible anymore. A 48h week wouldn't even change much for people except they'd actually be payed the overtime they make anyway.
Are you saying you're voting without any kind of self interest in benefits for yourself?
If you can save 400€ per year in taxes do you vote for this party or for the party that'll increase your taxes by 400€?
kingkaiser
Member
Surely working unpaid 10 hours overtime every week will make boss senpai notice me.
Kill Your Masters
Member
They stopped fucking and reproducing.
So just like the germans?
Bitch Pudding
Member
That's actually redundant.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Not as bad I guess? But an aging population shouldn't be something to strive for.
Also regarding taxes I'd rather work less than what the FDP wants me to do, and pay 400 more in taxes because 400 euros per year is nothing compared to valuable free time.
Haunted
Member
I missed clarifying financial interest in the final edit of my post, my bad.
Muffin1611
Banned
So, as I said already, the logic is "It's not adhered to, so let's scrap it" instead of introducing way to make a perfectly sensible law actually adhered to.
Things like exceptions for self-employed and small things like what you describe about emails should be added, sure, but this "it's not being followed, let's throw it away" mentality is nonsense.
I'm saying that I don't vote for such a party if I know it's going to hurt many others who are worse off than I.
If I get 400€ more because the tax strategy is so good thought out that other people won't be worse off, sure.
If I personally can manage my work times however I want which I couldn't before and is something I badly want to be able to but instead about the entire low payed work sector is getting even more inhumane work time schedules, then yeah, I won't vote for that.
Green Yoshi
Member
Isn't it sad that we have to work longer and longer despite the technical progress? I know some people enjoy that and their women raise the children while they are away but that only works because they make a lot of money. What if both parents have to work and school is over on half past tvelve?
Germanys demographic time bomb has been ticking for some time and it will fuck over everyone without private pension investments when it goes off.
So youre voting in your self interest. Thats exactly my point
Bitch Pudding
Member
I don't think anyone's interests are limited to financial ones. A lot of things are grinding my head right now - yes, including taxes and other costs for example, but frankly Zeitarbeit, rents or low wages in general aren't one of them.
anonymous_abc
Member
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Bitch Pudding
Member
you're still voting for a party who you think represents your very own interests at most, all things considered. The fact that some of your motives are altruistic doesn't change that.
Muffin1611
Banned
Altruism is literally concern for the interests of others.
At this point we're going into semantics.
You're saying that since acting in the interests of others is what I want, it's in my interest and thus I'm doing it solely in my interest.
That's a pretty roundabout way of saying I'm not acting in my interest at all.
Bitch Pudding
Member
You and your family are part of the society. If it's in your interest to develop society in a specific way - and you vote accordingly - you're still following one of your very own interests, even if others profit more from it than yourself.
Christian, is that you?
No, seriously it is OK if you never had a problem with not having an unlimited contract and that it didn't bother you not to know if you would have a job after your contract reached it end date or that you like working up to 50 hours a week, but now you want that for everyone?
That is not the way it should be. And it kinda scares me that people think like this.
One could argue that backwards working laws is a good thing because in a world where youre pretty much connected 24/7, laws that prevents employers from exploiting this.
Id be interested where your 48 hour weeks wouldnt change much for people comes from. Personal experience and anecdotal or a look at statistics? Im not that knowledgeable in this area.
Answer; Let them have nannies!
I hate when people want to ruin things for everyone because they are stupid enough to do more then they have to do.
Also with the generel ban on sunday work. Yeah, your loss that you cant have another day for buying shit at store. Much bigger loss for everyone working in retail if this is introduced.
Also, the only one who breaks the law is your company.
Yeah, no. Thats not going to happen.
The only good thing about 09-13 was the FDP missing the 5% hurdle in 13.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Keep in mind that being affected by the higher top tax rate does not necessarily mean you need to pay more taxes, because there are counter measures for the lower part of the income. According to a computation from FU Berlin, you will have to pay less taxes following the SPD concept, up to a yearly income of 102,000. Going beyond 100k /year and to complain about taxing "the wrong people" is quite a thing. Average yearly income in Germany is 44,436, so you pay less taxes, as long as you are below 2.3 times the average income. Who do you think should be taxed more? If you earn significantly more than 102,000 per year, it is not exactly a stretch of imagination to say you are rich.
Green Yoshi
Member
Surprisingly with the plans of Die Linke even people with a yearly income of 120,000 will get a huge tax break. Between 150,000 and 200,000 it switches to a tax increase.
kingkaiser
Member
It's basically this all over again, heh?
Look at all them poor "middleclass" simply being Entgeignet just like that.
Look at all them poor "middleclass" simply being Entgeignet just like that.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Wtf at that image above. Those fucking people are millionaires.
Kill Your Masters
Member
It's basically this all over again, heh?
Look at all them poor "middleclass" simply being Entgeignet just like that.
Seems like it. Someone with that income would never ever be middleclass in Germany.
Well maybe it's middle class if you are Christian Lindner. He probably thinks "I gotta help those lower class poor people" when he sees someting like that.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
What does this text have to do with his claim? There are quite a few computation steps needed from the information on the tagesschau website to obtain the threshold from which higher overall taxes need to be payed. The much larger amount of tax-free income has a significant influence, also the change in progression steps does as well. I do not know if his numbers are correct, because it is not easy to compute this, but just becaue the top tax rate is bigger starting from a yearly income of 81k (twice the average income in Germany), it certainly does not mean that you need to pay more taxes overall from this point onwards. You need to earn significantly more to have higher overall taxes.
The numbers already include the threshold for tax-free income. Even the Linke's own program refers to the number I cited:
I strongly doubt that their explicitly stated "rule of thumb" is inaccurate...
The entire progression can be seen here and also contradicts your numbers:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtscha...ei-spart-der-waehler-am-meisten-15187706.html
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
In their concept they say the top tax should reach 53% at 65,000 / year already, so this explains the discrepancy. So you pay more taxes starting from 81,500 / year in the left's concept. But even with the left-most viable partya tax increase starts at almost twice the average wage.The numbers already include the threshold for tax-free income. Even the Linke's own program refers to the number I cited:
I strongly doubt that their explicitly stated "rule of thumb" is inaccurate...
The entire progression can be seen here and also contradicts your numbers:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtscha...ei-spart-der-waehler-am-meisten-15187706.html
Huh? I have no idea what you're trying to say. The maximum tax rate does not start at 65000; it starts at 70000 (of taxable income). I literally just quoted them, so I have no idea where that number is coming from. Nothing about this explains the discrepancy between
kingkaiser
Member
Income Tax proposal of the LINKE
In detail https://www.die-linke.de/fileadmin/download/misc/20110129_Beschluss_Steuerkonzept.pdf
In detail https://www.die-linke.de/fileadmin/download/misc/20110129_Beschluss_Steuerkonzept.pdf
That document is from 2011, why are you even quoting it, when their 2017 program has the updated numbers?
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Because this is still the only full concept one can easily find. In their current program, they say the top tax rate of 53% should be reached at 70,000€ (adding the 11,000€ that are taxfree, at 81,000€
and the average tax at this level is 30%. According to http://einkommensteuerrechner.com.de/Steuersatz.php/#Einkommensteuerrecher currently the average tax at this level of income is 33.27%, which is more. So at 81,000€ yearly income you would get a tax break if the numbers in the left program are correct. I deem it unlikely that Green Yoshi's 120k / year number is correct, but at 81k / year, you should still have a tax break. Assuming of course the left was making their concept reality which is very unlikely.
kingkaiser
Member
It's the same concept, easiest way to illustrate who would profit and the newest numbers are even more in favor of the so called middleclass.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
OK, so this should settle it wrt peoiple who earn >120k per year. I still wonder, if people say that the wrong people are taxed more by the left tax concept, who are the right people, because according to the chart you have posted, only the top 10% would have to pay more taxes, everyone else would get a taxbreak.
Careful. The second chart shows the difference in relative contribution to the state's total amount of tax income (under the specific model), not the absolute tax load per income. Since the top 10% would pay more, the relative contribution of the rest would go down even if they'd pay the same tax in absolute numbers.
To see who would pay more or less money, you just have to look at the first line chart and compare it to the grey line chart, which shows the current tax model.
kingkaiser
Member
So, regarding the income tax proposal of the CDU someone with an annual income of 120.000 EUR will get more than double of a break than someone making 30.000 annual.
Now, if that doesn't sound fair...
Now, if that doesn't sound fair...
Frankfurter
Member
Imo the "in Prozent der Gesamtsteuerlast (273,15 Mrd. Euro)" implies that the total sum is supposed to stay ~the same.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Since the overall tax load would be lower under the left model than it is now, it still follows that the tax load of the 9th percentile would be lower. For some people in the upper half of the 9th percentile it might still be true that their tax would end up higher.
@kingkaiser: It is rather extreme with the CDU model, but with the left model you also have for instance 15,000 yearly income -> 914€ less taxes, 45,000 yearly income -> 1,847€ less taxes.
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