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Germany to Migrants: Integrate or Lose Your Residency Rights

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Doesn't seem to be a negative thing at all.

It is when the populace isn't welcoming. Immigrants don't purposefully create immigrant districts, the locals often shun them or move away over time. Integration isn't unidirectional.

Never heard of kids being disallowed to go to school by immigrants before, don't think deporting the whole family because of that would solve that issue though.
 

Raist

Banned
At this point I don't think there's any other choice than "forcing" integration.

But having to learn german? Man, that's just mean.
 

Volimar

Member
I'm kind of okay with this. It's so easy to fall into an insular exclusive community and as Belgium is discovering right now, that kind of separation from larger society can make radicalizing people easier.
 

Pluto

Member
I think one of the main road blocks is going to be that the immigrants will refuse to allow their girls to attend schools or integrate in any way.
That's not an option, parents cannot refuse to send their children to school, they will be taken by force if necessary.
But I don't think it will be a huge problem, most migrants are happy to send their children to school.
 

Ihaa

Neo Member
I don't understand how this wasn't a requirement before hand. If you have people immigrating over from anywhere, the expectation should be that they integrate with society, find jobs, get out of welfare and other government support systems and become self-sustaining citizens. Not having these requirements just allows people to take advantage of the governments support systems making everyone worse off.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
It is when the populace isn't welcoming. Immigrants don't purposefully create immigrant districts, the locals often shun them or move away over time. Integration isn't unidirectional.

Some actually do, simply by preferring to live with others that share their culture. Also, remember Erdogans speech that he gave in 2010 during his visit in Germany:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/...-verbrechen-gegen-die-menschlichkeit-1.293718

Many share that sentiment. I am kinda biased, since I grew up in such a neighborhood, and I have seen that attitude everywhere.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I think one of the main road blocks is going to be that the immigrants will refuse to allow their girls to attend schools or integrate in any way.

I'm not sure how many in the population would actually adhere to such backwards thinking, but if they do, then more integration into German cultural values would definitely be a good thing to combat a misogynist worldview.
 
Right, but aren't the schools for women very tightly controlled?

In New York the Hacidic Jews have their own (gender separated) schools and even buses. It wouldn't surprise me if many of them didn't speak English, especially the women. I wonder if that kind of situation would be accepted in German society.

School in general for everyone is tightly controlled in Saudi Arabia, but your right women have it worse (As a man who comes from Saudi Arabia, I know). People tend to forget that before the civil war, Syrian people were considered to be relatively liberal in the middle east. If you look the New Year's assault in Cologne, it was mostly Afghani and North African Migrants, but people like conflate every muslim into one category. This is not to say that Syrian culture is by any means perfect, but I think Syrian values are closer to western values. Even (At least the people I know) Saudi Arabian people share a lot of values with the West, I can't say thats the majority.

Its pretty easy to integrate if you want to.

For people who came from a war torn environment? Really?
 

Maximo

Member
This should have been a given even if there wasn't a migrant crisis. If you want to be treated like a German citizen, then you must have the same responsibilities as one.

Yeah don't see the issue much like if you visit any country you should learn and obey their rules for your stay.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
For people who came from a war torn environment? Really?

It's not the first wave of refugees in the history of Germany. For instance, I know a lot of very well integrated Iranians that came here in 1979 after fleeing from the revolution and became very successful financially and education-wise. Especially when you had to flee a war-torn region, you probably are even more appreciative of the opportunities that integration brings for you and your family.
 

Darren870

Member
At this point I don't think there's any other choice than "forcing" integration.

But having to learn german? Man, that's just mean.

How is that mean? How are people suppose to actually get services or live when they can't speak the local language? Should their be an interpreter at every hospital, police station, office building, school?

What if you have a meeting with your childs teacher? Should it not be in German? Or is an interpreter needed then too?
 

Klyka

Banned
People in Germany have been saying this since I was a little kid in the early nineties.

There's nothing wrong with this, but it's too little, too late.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
We do have a growing population of highly skilled people without German skills who went here to university and chose to stay after graduation. For instance, I know tech companies that have hired a lot of Indian/Pakistani graduates and have switched to English internally as a consequence.

However, German is still a requirement if you want to have a career. While English is a required language skill in many industries, you cannot assume that everybody speaks it sufficiently; especially not when it comes to your customers. So all of those students that I know are taking German classes.

Yes it is no doubt useful to learn the primary language of the country or area you live in. It's something that comes up often in my home country, which is bilingual. Most immigrants (refugees or otherwise) choose to learn English over the other official language, French. In Quebec, where French is the first language, but English is sufficient for some jobs (although not a ton, since many require French) and generally sufficient to get around town and buy groceries and stuff. I am bilingual and when I lived in a bilingual city I did my best to speak to people in their desired languages rather than relying on English, which is my native tongue.

I moved from Canada to the US, in an area where English is the official language but Spanish is spoken about as often as English. No hablo español muy bien. I've been working on it, I do audio lessons every day. I take it seriously, I think it's an important part of living here. I would say that English is certainly more useful, but it is totally possible to be gainfully employed while speaking Spanish. In fact, in some areas Korean, Chinese, or other languages might be enough to get through the day. But government services are a mix of English-only and English+Spanish so there's an obvious reason to learn at least one, if not both, and probably English before Spanish.

I was drawing from that experience to ask here. Non-German Europeans are permitted to reside in Germany. They do not enter as refugees, of course, and in general we would expect that most of them are more educated. Moreover, we would expect that most who live there long-term would learn German as part of their integration process. But we would not expect to expel them if they failed to, particularly if they were able to stay employed speaking a non-German language.

For example, I am also a UK citizen. As such, I can live and work anywhere within the EEA, including Germany, as can all other UK citizens. Most of them do not speak German. And of course we recognize that learning German would help their ability to succeed in Germany, no doubt about that. But they could theoretically go get access to some jobs without German, particularly if they were educated. As a matter of public policy wisdom, would it be wise to eject Britons from Germany provided they do not learn German, even if they are gainfully employed.

The idea of promoting German as a useful employment skill, offering German classes, requiring conversational German for further citizenship, tying German classes to unemployment aid or social services, etc. all seem useful to me. What I think makes less sense is making German compulsory just for the sake of the language, especially if that standard is not applied to other non-citizen residents.

Then they shouldn't end up in Germany in the first place.

Would you apply that standard to those who come from other EU countries but do not speak fluent German?

It strikes me that this broader issue is not about speaking German. All EEA countries readily accept other Europeans to live and work there without any test for fluency. I promise I won't take it as an insult if you tell me I should not be allowed to live or work in Germany, but I am, and I'm not sure how we can square this with the expectation here.

It strikes me that this is more about the cultural foreignness and "incompatibility" of those coming. Unfortunately trying to draw a line based on "compatibility" based on religion, country of origin, cultural values etc. is unpalatable, and so people find proxies, like language fluency, because those seem more rational and less discriminatory of a signal about willingness to integrate.

Like I said, it's very understandable to me that we would connect language to employment services, encourage it, make it easy to learn the language, teach the language in school for children, generally pipeline people into learning the language. I just don't see it as a sensible bright line because of how things are already set up.

(I also understand that the volume of new migrants poses a challenge that individual, voluntarily migration from other EU countries does not, but we generally establish rules and regulations that apply to individuals equally irrespective of their broader group membership.)
 
Some actually do, simply by preferring to live with others that share their culture. Also, remember Erdogans speech that he gave in 2010 during his visit in Germany:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/...-verbrechen-gegen-die-menschlichkeit-1.293718

Many share that sentiment. I am kinda biased, since I grew up in such a neighborhood, and I have seen that attitude everywhere.

Once they've been established surely, it's a deeper stemming issue that has been going for awhile. I still live in a district like that, albeit in the white rich(er) part but I went to school with mostly other middle class kids and 1 guy from Tunisia, guess the poor kid. Still I had to do with a decent amount of the youths from there and they all felt like locals. Even when their parents spoke their mother tongue exclusively at home.
I love the mixture of cultures though you oughta listen to a chinese guy talking like a serb.

I don't understand how this wasn't a requirement before hand. If you have people immigrating over from anywhere, the expectation should be that they integrate with society, find jobs, get out of welfare and other government support systems and become self-sustaining citizens. Not having these requirements just allows people to take advantage of the governments support systems making everyone worse off.

Please don't start with that, immigrants are generally netto payers to the welfare system. There's more than enough citizens abusing these systems believe me and more than enough waste of money systems we could be and need to abolish instead.
 
It's not the first wave of refugees in the history of Germany. For instance, I know a lot of very well integrated Iranians that came here in 1979 after fleeing from the revolution and became very successful financially and education-wise. Especially when you had to flee a war-torn region, you probably are even more appreciative of the opportunities that integration brings for you and your family.

Iran was (And to certain extent, is) pretty westernized, plus they weren't in a war situation, and probably went on planes voluntary to their country of choosing. Culture shock is very much real, western culture is not inherently better that people immediately get acclimated to it (Colonist thought that the people they colonized would adopt their cultural practices, because they are inherently better). Refugees have a hard time, because they are uncertain about their future, they are losing their culture, not sure where their family (Uncles, grandparents, cousins etc). It's rough, but they need support to fully integrate, they need stability, to live with people they are comfortable with, but still exposed to the wider culture. Integration is hard for refugees.
 

ibyea

Banned
Yes it is no doubt useful to learn the primary language of the country or area you live in. It's something that comes up often in my home country, which is bilingual. Most immigrants (refugees or otherwise) choose to learn English over the other official language, French. In Quebec, where French is the first language but where English is sufficient for some jobs (although not a ton, since many require French) and generally sufficient to get around town and buy groceries and stuff. I am bilingual and when I lived in a bilingual city I did my best to speak to people in their desired languages rather than relying on English, which is my native tongue.

I moved from Canada to the US, in an area where English is the official language but Spanish is spoken about as often as English. No hablo español muy bien. I've been working on it, I do audio lessons every day. I take it seriously, I think it's an important part of living here. I would say that English is certainly more useful, but it is totally possible to be gainfully employed while speaking Spanish. In fact, in some areas Korean, Chinese, or other languages might be enough to get through the day. But government services are a mix of English-only and English+Spanish so there's an obvious reason to learn at least one, if not both, and probably English before Spanish.

I was drawing from that experience to ask here. Non-German Europeans are permitted to reside in Germany. They do not enter as refugees, of course, and in general we would expect that most of them are more educated. Moreover, we would expect that most who live there long-term would learn German as part of their integration process. But we would not expect to expel them if they failed to, particularly if they were able to stay employed speaking a non-German language.

For example, I am also a UK citizen. As such, I can live and work anywhere within the EEA, including Germany, as can all other UK citizens. Most of them do not speak German. And of course we recognize that learning German would help their ability to succeed in Germany, no doubt about that. But they could theoretically go get access to some jobs without German, particularly if they were educated. As a matter of public policy wisdom, would it be wise to eject Britons from Germany provided they do not learn German, even if they are gainfully employed.

The idea of promoting German as a useful employment skill, offering German classes, requiring conversational German for further citizenship, tying German classes to unemployment aid or social services, etc. all seem useful to me. What I think makes less sense is making German compulsory just for the sake of the language, especially if that standard is not applied to other non-citizen residents.



Would you apply that standard to those who come from other EU countries but do not speak fluent German?

It strikes me that this broader issue is not about speaking German. All EEA countries readily accept other Europeans to live and work there without any test for fluency. I promise I won't take it as an insult if you tell me I should not be allowed to live or work in Germany, but I am, and I'm not sure how we can square this with the expectation here.

It strikes me that this is more about the cultural foreignness and "incompatibility" of those coming. Unfortunately trying to draw a line based on "compatibility" based on religion, country of origin, cultural values etc. is unpalatable, and so people find proxies, like language fluency, because those seem more rational and less discriminatory of a signal about willingness to integrate.

Like I said, it's very understandable to me that we would connect language to employment services, encourage it, make it easy to learn the language, teach the language in school for children, generally pipeline people into learning the language. I just don't see it as a sensible bright line because of how things are already set up.

Well said. I feel like there is some sort of double standards. While I would strongly encourage immigrants to learn the German language, and I hope they set up many things to make integration easier and faster, these sort of mandate seem discriminatory towards certain kinds of foreigners when not applied evenly to everyone.
 
So long as the terms of integration is fair and laid out with clear instructions and there are actual and well funded programs available to all immigrants to he;p integrate, I see no problems with it.
 
The key aspect of all of this is what is considered to be failure to integrate? I doubt learning German will fix all the social integration issues. I could also see the system being abused where they deport people without basis or a valid reason for their lack of integration.

In other words, this might create a loophole of some kind to deport people if the there are no specific laws or limits to what is considered to be failure on the refugee part. I guess we will find out.
 

kamspy

Member
Stump, I think the language and job thing is a roundabout way of asking for cultural integration. Western European immigrants are basically already culturally very similar.

I don't think it's an outlandish request at all. I think they want to avoid situations like this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35059488 and preserve the women's rights that Germany is a great champion of.
 
Ehhhhhhhhhhhh, honestly can't form much an opinion on this until the language of the law is available.

On the face, it's great. As a migrant myself, I've always made an effort to integrate without discarding my own culture. And have always disagreed with my fellow migrants who just huddle in insular communities with no meaningful attempt to open up to their new home.

That said, mandated integration is rife for misuse and being bogged down by beurocracy. Will it be able to handle to messy nuances of life? Will the migrant with a learning disability have to somehow learn German? How about the single mother whose every waking moment is working and caring for her children? Additionally, how far will cultural integration go? We can all agree that regressive attitudes towards women have no place in a modern society, but how about other cultural norms that straddle a grey line?

The fact this bill is largely reactionary, being proposed as a response to a poor election showing, makes me extra worried that it won't be well thought out.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Stump, I think the language and job thing is a roundabout way of asking for cultural integration. Western European immigrants are basically already culturally very similar.

I don't think it's an outlandish request at all.

I strongly object to the idea that government policy should consist of someone saying something when they mean something else and everyone else being able to hear the dogwhistle.

If they mean that Muslims don't like mixed-gender swimming pools and they should get over it, they should say that. If they mean that Germany is a secular, mixed society with a wide variety of people and leave your cultural baggage behind, they should say that. They don't because, in part, it's unpalatable. People recoil at the meanness in those statements. If they mean that language is part of the overall integration picture and one of the best ways to ensure success, they should say that. Which leads to the dogwhistle politics of saying one thing when we all know they mean another. When they say "Learn German or you're kicked out", that's news to all the people who don't know German and aren't being kicked out.

Since my last post, I asked a friend who is an American and living in Germany working on a post-doc in some sort of fancy-ass Intel-funded computer science job. I asked "what are the consequences of you not learning German?" His answer was "None, my boss doesn't speak German, and I had to go out of my way to sign up for classes." Why shouldn't he be deported if he gives up on those classes? Because it's not broadly about language. He's got a PhD and he's there making cash, and his values are normal or whatever normal means. Fine, okay, but why not say what they mean.

As above I think language learning should be integrated into the process, attached to existing job training and job finding support. Free, easily available. If you want to make it a condition to some extent to get aid, that's fine (although I'd hope there'd be an answer about how the young mother is going to afford a babysitter to go to her German class if you won't give her money because she doesn't know German). If you want to shout from the rooftops that German is the best way to succeed, I agree. But if someone manages to make it work without German or learns English and takes a job at a multinational, like, *shrug* I don't see any standard that would kick them out if it doesn't kick people like me out too.
 

Ihaa

Neo Member
Once they've been established surely, it's a deeper stemming issue that has been going for awhile. I still live in a district like that, albeit in the white rich(er) part but I went to school with mostly other middle class kids and 1 guy from Tunisia, guess the poor kid. Still I had to do with a decent amount of the youths from there and they all felt like locals. Even when their parents spoke their mother tongue exclusively at home.
I love the mixture of cultures though you oughta listen to a chinese guy talking like a serb.



Please don't start with that, immigrants are generally netto payers to the welfare system. There's more than enough citizens abusing these systems believe me and more than enough waste of money systems we could be and need to abolish instead.

But that's the point. You make these laws so that you don't have more people abusing the system. Taking in over a million people and not making it a requirement to learn German for example is way more unstable than just putting the above requirements in place. Why they weren't there when the whole process of taking in refugees started is really odd.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Sounds good. I am usually against heavy-handed approaches to advance society, but I think its absolutely necessary here with half of the world still living in the 19th century. May take a generation in all honesty, but overall I approve. Only problem I can potentially see if with the parents, who at this point are beyond true secularism and will achieve top-toeing tolerance at most.
 
But that's the point. You make these laws so that you don't have more people abusing the system. Taking in over a million people and not making it a requirement to learn German for example is way more unstable than just putting the above requirements in place. Why they weren't there when the whole process of taking in refugees started is really odd.

Making laws won't just make abuse go away, you actually have to execute them.Which costs money and is usually a waste of the aforementioned money because the ones it's supposed to target aren't even the biggest offenders.

They weren't in place because governments didn't expect these masses and thought they weren't necessary. It's doubtful even how effective this would be. Again making it law won't magically teach it to people.
Then there's the question about equal treatment with EU citizens who do not have to learn the local official language to be able to stay as long as they want. I could up and leave and go live in bukarest w/o ever having to learn the language right now or getting integrated.
 

CTLance

Member
I like the idea of encouraging new migrants to adhere to local "core values" like gender equality and establishing at least a core competency in both the spoken and written word.

However, with Germany being Germany, I fear the law will be a day late and more than an Euro short.

Well, best of luck to him. I guess.
 

kamspy

Member
I strongly object to the idea that government policy should consist of someone saying something when they mean something else and everyone else being able to hear the dogwhistle.

If they mean that Muslims don't like mixed-gender swimming pools and they should get over it, they should say that. If they mean that Germany is a secular, mixed society with a wide variety of people and leave your cultural baggage behind, they should say that. They don't because, in part, it's unpalatable. People recoil at the meanness in those statements. If they mean that language is part of the overall integration picture and one of the best ways to ensure success, they should say that. Which leads to the dogwhistle politics of saying one thing when we all know they mean another. When they say "Learn German or you're kicked out", that's news to all the people who don't know German and aren't being kicked out.

Since my last post, I asked a friend who is an American and living in Germany working on a post-doc in some sort of fancy-ass Intel-funded computer science job. I asked "what are the consequences of you not learning German?" His answer was "None, my boss doesn't speak German, and I had to go out of my way to sign up for classes." Why shouldn't he be deported if he gives up on those classes? Because it's not broadly about language. He's got a PhD and he's there making cash, and his values are normal or whatever normal means. Fine, okay, but why not say what they mean.

As above I think language learning should be integrated into the process, attached to existing job training and job finding support. Free, easily available. If you want to make it a condition to some extent to get aid, that's fine (although I'd hope there'd be an answer about how the young mother is going to afford a babysitter to go to her German class if you won't give her money because she doesn't know German). If you want to shout from the rooftops that German is the best way to succeed, I agree. But if someone manages to make it work without German or learns English and takes a job at a multinational, like, *shrug* I don't see any standard that would kick them out if it doesn't kick people like me out too.

I think they should come out and say it too. I read that the trains in Germany are being segregated by gender now because of problems with migrants.

What group of reasonable people would recoil if Germany came out and said the things that need to be said?

EDIT: and I agree that any of the common western european languages would be fine, assuming they already have the capacity to provide social services in the language. I'm more going for the need to assimilate culturally. Like you said, being OK with mixed gender pools and not needing to segregate genders on a train. Can you imagine if that happened in the US?
 
Both multicultural and integrationist approaches to immigration havve about the same amount of pros and cons, they're just different pros and cons, so both approaches seem equally valid to me. I'm saying this as a Canadian and we're pretty decidedly in the former camp.
 

Darkangel

Member
There's a culture clash where the governing elites of Europe encouraged keeping ethnic identity traditional, yet just now changing tune.

It's a hard transition and won't happen overnight.

America has a more melting pot ethic that should be model here, but that's built into our culture.

I think it's only natural that most people don't want to see their culture diluted over time.

It is when the populace isn't welcoming. Immigrants don't purposefully create immigrant districts, the locals often shun them or move away over time. Integration isn't unidirectional.

Never heard of kids being disallowed to go to school by immigrants before, don't think deporting the whole family because of that would solve that issue though.

You don't think people in a foreign land would want to group up with people who are similar to themselves?
 
You don't think people in a foreign land would want to group up with people who are similar to them?

Of course they'd wanna congregate but it's not like they had the money to buy out and resettle a whole district. It happened over time and for a big part invited as guest workers, it's a situation by our own making.

I think they should come out and say it too. I read that the trains in Germany are being segregated by gender now because of problems with migrants.

What group of reasonable people would recoil if Germany came out and said the things that need to be said?

EDIT: and I agree that any of the common western european languages would be fine, assuming they already have the capacity to provide social services in the language. I'm more going for the need to assimilate culturally. Like you said, being OK with mixed gender pools and not needing to segregate genders on a train. Can you imagine if that happened in the US?

where did you read that, a quick search only gave me a regional train making a compartment(s) for women only and nowhere does it mention migrants being the cause but the comment section.
 

GYODX

Member
I was drawing from that experience to ask here. Non-German Europeans are permitted to reside in Germany. They do not enter as refugees, of course, and in general we would expect that most of them are more educated. Moreover, we would expect that most who live there long-term would learn German as part of their integration process. But we would not expect to expel them if they failed to, particularly if they were able to stay employed speaking a non-German language.
It seems like an arbitrary demand when you put it that way, but there is incentive to enforce it when the group you are looking to integrate numbers in the hundreds of thousands and came all at once. Blanket measures become necessary in such circumstances.
 
I am ok with it.

And Germany better setup their integration law now before the climate change shit really hit the fan. Right now it's just tips of iceberg.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
It seems like an arbitrary demand when you put it that way, but there is incentive to enforce it when the group you are looking to integrate numbers in the hundreds of thousands and came all at once. Blanket measures become necessary in such circumstances.

Then why is the measure not a blanket measure? Expel Britons now.

To be a little less facetious; how do we see this playing out? Will immigration officers expel gainfully employed persons who do not meet minimum German fluency? Will the same standard apply to other categories of non-citizen residents? If this is just an illustrative example of one way in which someone gets to be well integrated, then surely it is a useful one, but if this will come to be a rule, how will the rule apply?
 

Christopher

Member
Then why is the measure not a blanket measure? Expel Britons now.

Are you just trying to fight to be politically correct? Germany is obviously aware that they are going to have a huge problem on their hands with the influx of refugees, and obviously wants them to become part of their society.
 

Ihaa

Neo Member
Making laws won't just make abuse go away, you actually have to execute them.Which costs money and is usually a waste of the aforementioned money because the ones it's supposed to target aren't even the biggest offenders.

They weren't in place because governments didn't expect these masses and thought they weren't necessary. It's doubtful even how effective this would be. Again making it law won't magically teach it to people.
Then there's the question about equal treatment with EU citizens who do not have to learn the local official language to be able to stay as long as they want. I could up and leave and go live in bukarest w/o ever having to learn the language right now or getting integrated.

Well we can always analyze similar situations in other countries. When Canada was getting its waves of immigrants, learning English or french was made a requirement and a lot was done to require that immigrants found jobs or else they would face consequences. And if we look at how that has affected Canada in the long term, we have lots of diverse minorities who are mostly well off (things got bad for youth but that is recent and because of other issues). I'm pretty sure similar requirements were made in other countries which faced waves of immigration so those are good events to analyze. Simply looking from Canada, it was successful and gave us a large middle class before the economy crashed so enforcing such laws has been proven to be an effective investment in the long term.

The question of if its fair because other people don't have to go through the same thing is a little irrelevant in my opinion. People from EU immigrating to another country in EU are far more likely to be better off than refugees financially so they are less likely to cause stress on the country's budget. People coming from Syria are escaping a war environment and probably left a lot of their valuables back in home since they couldn't bring everything with them. The refugees are in a completely different situation and should be (in my opinion), given laws that can make the most refugees in 5-10 years employed and part of the middle class.

I think the laws that are being proposed in the first post are some of those which can help make more refugees become employed in 5-10 years however, if it can be shown that those same laws are not effective on EU immigrants than I don't think it should be applied to them if its counter productive (this all relies on showing whether or not EU immigrants don't benefit significantly from learning German for example which requires some statistics to be done).
 

sphinx

the piano man
Germany has been dealing with the integration problem for decades, long before the Syrian crisis.

Political debates come and go and the outcome is the same:

Germans will hang out with germans and people from other countries (particularly Middle-eastern/arabic) will hang out with their own and they won't cross paths and that's how it will stay.

this guy saying things won't change anything..
 
Would you apply that standard to those who come from other EU countries but do not speak fluent German?

No, but those are different circumstances. A refugee needs to integrated into european culture and specifically the culture of the particular country the person is staying in. If refugees already speak the language of one of the european nations it makes sense to send them to that particular country in order make integration easier for them.
Of course thats not mandatory, but that would be a smart thing to do. Would make the whole thing more efficient.

Europeans who go to another european country for work are a completely different scenario, but I also think that they, if they plan on staying for an extended period of time, should learn the language of the country they're staying in. But I wouldn't be for any kinds of tests. I also think thats not really an issue anyway. If you are integrated into the workforce a country you will most likely learn the language anyway.
I work at a software company and we have lots of employees from other european countries, and while the whole internal communication at the company is in english, they all speak at least a little german. Enough for a casual conversation in the kitchen anyways.

Language for refugees is important because its the most important step in integration.
For europeans who work in another country thats different.

It strikes me that this is more about the cultural foreignness and "incompatibility" of those coming. Unfortunately trying to draw a line based on "compatibility" based on religion, country of origin, cultural values etc. is unpalatable, and so people find proxies, like language fluency, because those seem more rational and less discriminatory of a signal about willingness to integrate.
I think culture has to be an everchanging thing. If a culture stops evolving its dead.
But in order for culture to evolve we need to actually be able to mix different elements, and without a common langauge in which we can communicate we won't get a mix but seperate entities.
And thats exactly what we don't want.

Of course there are a couple foundations of western culture that aren't up for debate.
While certain new cultural elements are completely fine, things like homophobia, the regressive role of women etc. should actively kept out of the cultural mix.

but we generally establish rules and regulations that apply to individuals equally irrespective of their broader group membership.)
I don't see the problem here.
They spoke about general integration beeing a requirement for permanent residency. Language is a part of that, but not everything.

And it also has to be mentioned that we of course have different rules for different people. Europeans have generally more rights in europe than non europeans. I don't see something inherently wrong with that.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
While certain new cultural elements are completely fine, things like homophobia, the regressive role of women etc. should actively kept out of the cultural mix.

Just a note, homophobia is a routine feature of German politics, which is why your ruling coalition, including the party proposing this in the OP, is Very Worried About How Gay Marriage Will Harm German Society. I don't mean to distract from the actual issues, but if we're talking broader about some sort of compulsory values test for new arrivals, it's totally unclear to me how you could sustain not allowing homophobia.
 
Well we can always analyze similar situations in other countries. When Canada was getting its waves of immigrants, learning English or french was made a requirement and a lot was done to require that immigrants found jobs or else they would face consequences. And if we look at how that has affected Canada in the long term, we have lots of diverse minorities who are mostly well off (things got bad for youth but that is recent and because of other issues). I'm pretty sure similar requirements were made in other countries which faced waves of immigration so those are good events to analyze. Simply looking from Canada, it was successful and gave us a large middle class before the economy crashed so enforcing such laws has been proven to be an effective investment in the long term.

The question of if its fair because other people don't have to go through the same thing is a little irrelevant in my opinion. People from EU immigrating to another country in EU are far more likely to be better off than refugees financially so they are less likely to cause stress on the country's budget. People coming from Syria are escaping a war environment and probably left a lot of their valuables back in home since they couldn't bring everything with them. The refugees are in a completely different situation and should be (in my opinion), given laws that can make the most refugees in 5-10 years employed and part of the middle class.

I think the laws that are being proposed in the first post are some of those which can help make more refugees become employed in 5-10 years however, if it can be shown that those same laws are not effective on EU immigrants than I don't think it should be applied to them if its counter productive (this all relies on showing whether or not EU immigrants don't benefit significantly from learning German for example which requires some statistics to be done).

The laws proposed are populism, you can see the tone shifting all around europe. Even tame or left leaning governments are all striking harsher tones in regards to immigration if they don't entirely skirt the issue.
I don't necessarily see the correlation between making it the law and the emergence of a large and diverse middle class. You're looking at the outcome and singling out a single cause that may or may not have little to do with it. Not to mention how comparable or not the situation is.

We don't even know what we want to do with the refugees, it's gonna take a while for them to even get working permits and not even that is gonna guarantee they'll be allowed to stay. As far as I can tell people expect them to go back once the situation has calmed down but that didn't even work when we invited them to work here.

You don't think it has anything to do with Cologne?

Cologne is almost 4 months past so no I don't think it directly relates to that.
 

spwolf

Member
Well said. I feel like there is some sort of double standards. While I would strongly encourage immigrants to learn the German language, and I hope they set up many things to make integration easier and faster, these sort of mandate seem discriminatory towards certain kinds of foreigners when not applied evenly to everyone.

i dont get it - of course there is a double standard - one for citizens and one for immigrants. Just like with immigrants getting US citizenship having to pass language and history tests. Of course, there is also a fact that both Canada and USA are accepting very, very limited number of refugees.

There are 3rd kind of immigrants - illegal not from war thorn areas, they are expelled from the country no matter how well they speak the language.

there are also people who are from war thorn areas and legally in the germany, but once war ends, they have to return to their country. Germany returned 60.000 people from the balkans in 2015 for that reason, to create space for new refugees.

Another thing to note, even if you are from EU and can get employed in germany, your employers expect you to go to german course and learn the language. You will not get a decent job in germany without learning german.
 

Xiao Hu

Member
It is when the populace isn't welcoming. Immigrants don't purposefully create immigrant districts, the locals often shun them or move away over time. Integration isn't unidirectional.

Never heard of kids being disallowed to go to school by immigrants before, don't think deporting the whole family because of that would solve that issue though.

The only group I known of that has that kind of practice are Sinti/Roma. But that is something very special...
 

GYODX

Member
Then why is the measure not a blanket measure? Expel Britons now.

To be a little less facetious; how do we see this playing out? Will immigration officers expel gainfully employed persons who do not meet minimum German fluency? Will the same standard apply to other categories of non-citizen residents? If this is just an illustrative example of one way in which someone gets to be well integrated, then surely it is a useful one, but if this will come to be a rule, how will the rule apply?

Well you would expect the demands to be levied specifically upon the same group of people that are also being offered incentives to make an effort to integrate. From the article: language lessons, social benefits and housing.

The baseline should probably not be "German fluency", as someone can be perfectly conversant in a language and still do poorly in standardized testing for fluency in that language. In my mind, having taken all German lessons that you were offered as a migrant is the minimum for being able to say that you made an attempt to learn the language in good faith. Certification of that fact is a reasonable way to enforce that rule.
 
I absolutely agree with this.

I live in a smaller part of england that already has some elements of cultural inclusiveness. If they want to be here then they need to speak the language and they need to be actively seeking emlpoyment.
 

spwolf

Member
The only group I known of that has that kind of practice are Sinti/Roma. But that is something very special...

in my country at least, roma's issues with schooling are not gender related... They often simply dont send any of their kids to school or in general dont apply same values we do to the schooling of children.

In any case, when it comes to girl comments, pretty sure a lot of that is due to influx of Afgani refugees that came with syrians, even though in most cases afganistan is not considered unsafe by eu so they should not be thefe . Most of the refugees threw away their papers and they all claim to be from syria when crossing borders.

Problem we had in the camps was that afgans did not let women enter the tents when it was raining and snowing so fights broke between them and syrians... within few days police separated syrians and afgans in different tents so syrian women and children could come inside.

Thats a serious culture problem thats not going to be easy to solve at all.
 

kamspy

Member
Am I wrong in that it seems like US-GAF and Euro-GAF have every different feelings about the Syrian migration?
 
It sounds cold and the intention is probably coming from the wrong place, but on the other hand moving to a new country and not learning the language is foolish and traps you in a tiny underclass bubble.

So yeah, if they're going to live in Germany they should learn German.
 

Africanus

Member
Am I wrong in that it seems like US-GAF and Euro-GAF have every different feelings about the Syrian migration?

In aggregate you might find that to be the case, but individual posters have individual opinions on the matter.

I'd say distance, immigration level, and levels of homogeneity play a part.
 
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