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Germany to Migrants: Integrate or Lose Your Residency Rights

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Ether_Snake

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This is kind of contradictory to the existence of the EU, unless one could have "EU" citizenship, which I kind of expect to be brought up as a solution to the whole "immigrant crisis". You can get citizenship for a given country, but if you don't meet the criterias you get EU citizenship; a sort of basic citizenship that gives you a couple of rights, but not all of those from a country's own citizenship.
 

Metrotab

Banned
This is kind of contradictory to the existence of the EU, unless one could have "EU" citizenship.

How so? If I moved to Germany as a Belgian, gained their citizenship and would actually build a career and life there, I believe German people would expect me to learn German at some point. Same for any other country in the EU.

Edit: nvm, you seem to be talking about something different?
 

Ether_Snake

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How so? If I moved to Germany as a Belgian, gained their citizenship and would actually build a career and life there, I believe German people would expect me to learn German at some point. Same for any other country in the EU.

Edit: nvm, you seem to be talking about something different?

In Canada it would be pretty stupid to lose your citizenship because you don't speak English or French. I mean, some people learn slowly, and how much do they really need to know? Are they going to lose their citizenship if they get 59% instead of a passing grade of 60%?

So like I said, I expect some sort of EU citizenship to come up as a way to make EU members go forward with tighter regulations for their own citizenships, this way they can be more strict if they want to without causing people to excessively punished for not getting one country's citizenship. Basically EU citizenship becomes a "safety net", giving people the time to get citizenship in some country.
 
Isn't it the same everywhere? When my wife came with me to France, she was given free French lessons and there's a "test" at the end of the first year (when the visa is about to expire) to see how much you know about France. Seems pretty fair.
 

Christopher

Member
Isn't it the same everywhere? When my wife came with me to France, she was given free French lessons and there's a "test" at the end of the first year (when the visa is about to expire) to see how much you know about France. Seems pretty fair.

Yeah I'm not sure why people in this very thread are fighting this...just to wave the PC Flag around. It seems Germany wants these people to intergrate and assimilate ...however people find this as a bad idea?

You're a war refugee coming to a country for asylum and its a bad thing to learn their lanaguage? Not understanding the negativity here.
 
Yeah I'm not sure why people in this very thread are fighting this...just to wave the PC Flag around. It seems Germany wants these people to intergrate and assimilate ...however people find this as a bad idea?

You're a war refugee coming to a country for asylum and its a bad thing to learn their lanaguage? Not understanding the negativity here.

Some posters have explained what some of the concerns are. You should read the thread instead of crying about the PC brigade.
 

kamspy

Member
In aggregate you might find that to be the case, but individual posters have individual opinions on the matter.

I'd say distance, immigration level, and levels of homogeneity play a part.

In my mind, we should really be looking for insight from gaffers who live in close proximity to the effected areas.

I really understand and appreciate the sentiment from those in our community who want to 'do the right thing' and help people. But maybe they're doing a disservice by not using Neogaf's greatest resource (it's members) to learn more about the situation though first hand accounts.
 

kamspy

Member
Good, you should integrate into any country that you move to.

We did. My grandfather insisted upon it as an act of gratitude for taking us in. That bushy eye browed Russian was the truest patriot I've ever known. And not in the corny Wal-Mart sense.
 
Then why is the measure not a blanket measure? Expel Britons now.

To be a little less facetious; how do we see this playing out? Will immigration officers expel gainfully employed persons who do not meet minimum German fluency? Will the same standard apply to other categories of non-citizen residents? If this is just an illustrative example of one way in which someone gets to be well integrated, then surely it is a useful one, but if this will come to be a rule, how will the rule apply?
If that Briton has applied for asylum, he'll probably fall under the same rules. He'll be denied of course, since Britain is a safe country. And he can go work and live in Germany already anyway because Britain is part of the EU.

There are different rules for different kind of immigration and with different countries, because we have agreements with some for free movement of people and such.
 

ape2man

Member
Stump, I think the language and job thing is a roundabout way of asking for cultural integration. Western European immigrants are basically already culturally very similar.

I don't think it's an outlandish request at all. I think they want to avoid situations like this http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35059488 and preserve the women's rights that Germany is a great champion of.

No, this is absolutely not true. Germans, Dutch, Belgium's, Austrians, Spanish, Portuguese, French.

All these cultures are very different.
 
Is learning German actually necessary to get by in Germany? When I visited basically everyone spoke English, seriously, everyone.

Being german historically means talking german.

You can be the most exotic looking person, but if you are talking perfect german, or even better, some dialect like bavarian, people will not think of you as a foreigner anymore (well, at least in western germany that's the case. Don't know about eastern Germany in this regard)
 

Alx

Member
Being german historically means talking german.

You can be the most exotic looking person, but if you are talking perfect german, or even better, some dialect like bavarian, people will not think of you as a foreigner anymore (well, at least in western germany that's the case. Don't know about eastern Germany in this regard)

Yeah, most people miss the fact that language isn't only about communication. It's also and especially about culture. Being able to get people to understand you isn't the same as talking the way they do, with all the nuances and background that are carried with a language. Also it gives you access to the cultural common ground : newspapers, books, TV, movies,...
 

patapuf

Member
Then why is the measure not a blanket measure? Expel Britons now.

To be a little less facetious; how do we see this playing out? Will immigration officers expel gainfully employed persons who do not meet minimum German fluency? Will the same standard apply to other categories of non-citizen residents? If this is just an illustrative example of one way in which someone gets to be well integrated, then surely it is a useful one, but if this will come to be a rule, how will the rule apply?

There is a diffirence between normal migrants and refugees. There are already pretty tough rules for immigrating into germany in that you pretty much need a job to get a permit (This is true of much of Western Europe, Canada and the US as well).

If you have a job you are usually self suficient and thus, people care a lot less about your german skills.

The situation is very different from refugees (as is their legal status). If you are offered language and job training classes, to help you integrate, i think it's fair to require them being mandatory and taken seriously.
 

Maedre

Banned
Yes it is no doubt useful to learn the primary language of the country or area you live in. It's something that comes up often in my home country, which is bilingual. Most immigrants (refugees or otherwise) choose to learn English over the other official language, French. In Quebec, where French is the first language, but English is sufficient for some jobs (although not a ton, since many require French) and generally sufficient to get around town and buy groceries and stuff. I am bilingual and when I lived in a bilingual city I did my best to speak to people in their desired languages rather than relying on English, which is my native tongue.

I moved from Canada to the US, in an area where English is the official language but Spanish is spoken about as often as English. No hablo español muy bien. I've been working on it, I do audio lessons every day. I take it seriously, I think it's an important part of living here. I would say that English is certainly more useful, but it is totally possible to be gainfully employed while speaking Spanish. In fact, in some areas Korean, Chinese, or other languages might be enough to get through the day. But government services are a mix of English-only and English+Spanish so there's an obvious reason to learn at least one, if not both, and probably English before Spanish.

I was drawing from that experience to ask here. Non-German Europeans are permitted to reside in Germany. They do not enter as refugees, of course, and in general we would expect that most of them are more educated. Moreover, we would expect that most who live there long-term would learn German as part of their integration process. But we would not expect to expel them if they failed to, particularly if they were able to stay employed speaking a non-German language.

For example, I am also a UK citizen. As such, I can live and work anywhere within the EEA, including Germany, as can all other UK citizens. Most of them do not speak German. And of course we recognize that learning German would help their ability to succeed in Germany, no doubt about that. But they could theoretically go get access to some jobs without German, particularly if they were educated. As a matter of public policy wisdom, would it be wise to eject Britons from Germany provided they do not learn German, even if they are gainfully employed.

The idea of promoting German as a useful employment skill, offering German classes, requiring conversational German for further citizenship, tying German classes to unemployment aid or social services, etc. all seem useful to me. What I think makes less sense is making German compulsory just for the sake of the language, especially if that standard is not applied to other non-citizen residents.



Would you apply that standard to those who come from other EU countries but do not speak fluent German?

It strikes me that this broader issue is not about speaking German. All EEA countries readily accept other Europeans to live and work there without any test for fluency. I promise I won't take it as an insult if you tell me I should not be allowed to live or work in Germany, but I am, and I'm not sure how we can square this with the expectation here.

It strikes me that this is more about the cultural foreignness and "incompatibility" of those coming. Unfortunately trying to draw a line based on "compatibility" based on religion, country of origin, cultural values etc. is unpalatable, and so people find proxies, like language fluency, because those seem more rational and less discriminatory of a signal about willingness to integrate.

Like I said, it's very understandable to me that we would connect language to employment services, encourage it, make it easy to learn the language, teach the language in school for children, generally pipeline people into learning the language. I just don't see it as a sensible bright line because of how things are already set up.

(I also understand that the volume of new migrants poses a challenge that individual, voluntarily migration from other EU countries does not, but we generally establish rules and regulations that apply to individuals equally irrespective of their broader group membership.)

you do not in a country with many, parallel societies like the turks, kurds or romas. They are mostly not interested in our values or laws and if you are born inside, it unlikley to get out of there. Your chances to escape these mostly radical sovieties is nearly impossible.

Language and the will to integrate is key. We are not talking about someone with a higher education who speaks englich. Many of these persons we are talking about are not able to communicate with the rest of the country and don't want to.

I have many positive examples of immigrants from around the world who learned the language and integrated well. Without learning german they would have go down the drain.
If i would have to move to Britan, i would start to improve my english skills so that i can integrate perfectly into my new home.
 
assimilation is essential. why move from your shitty situation to a new decent location, then keep doing what you were doing that led to the shitty situation in the first place.
 

Maedre

Banned
Being german historically means talking german.

You can be the most exotic looking person, but if you are talking perfect german, or even better, some dialect like bavarian, people will not think of you as a foreigner anymore (well, at least in western germany that's the case. Don't know about eastern Germany in this regard)

Language is what created this country many hundred years ago. The holy roman Empire of German Nation was the result. The language was and is what defines us. So, you are correct. If someone has blue skin, three eyes, four armes but speaks german and accepts/follows the law then you are german.
 
Isn't it the same everywhere? When my wife came with me to France, she was given free French lessons and there's a "test" at the end of the first year (when the visa is about to expire) to see how much you know about France. Seems pretty fair.

You get those free lessons usually. The problem is that some people dont go to those government paid lessons. For my social service about 10 years ago I worked for 2 weeks of that in the immigration office of my city.
We had to visit middle-eastern families, because they didnt show up to their lessons at VHS (Volkshochschule, some school in Germany) and we needed an interpreter to go to most of these families. Most of them didnt even care about learning the language sadly (at least the families we visited), even though they were unemployed...
 

Maedre

Banned
You get those free lessons usually. The problem is that some people dont go to those government paid lessons. For my social service about 10 years ago I worked for 2 weeks of that in the immigration office of my city.
We had to visit middle-eastern families, because they didnt show up to their lessons at VHS (Volkshochschule, some school in Germany) and we needed an interpreter to go to most of these families. Most of them didnt even care about learning the language sadly (at least the families we visited), even though they were unemployed...

Ruhrarea?
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
Sounds fair to me. When you move to another country, you should adapt to their language(s), laws and customs, not the other way around.
 

Bedlam

Member
Sounds absolutely reasonable.

It will be a very difficult process but we need to make it clear to refugees seeking to immigrate that we expect certain efforts in return from them.

You get those free lessons usually. The problem is that some people dont go to those government paid lessons. For my social service about 10 years ago I worked for 2 weeks of that in the immigration office of my city.
We had to visit middle-eastern families, because they didnt show up to their lessons at VHS (Volkshochschule, some school in Germany) and we needed an interpreter to go to most of these families. Most of them didnt even care about learning the language sadly (at least the families we visited), even though they were unemployed...
Yep. And we cannot provide for these kind of people forever, especially since the numbers are steadily growing. Willingness to integrate needs to be a requirement.
 

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
And this is news why? Seems like it's just stating the obvious, these rules applied to every migrant in the last decade (aside from EU migrants of course).
 

EGM1966

Member
Not sure forcing it is the best approach but integration clearly needs to happen in these cases. The opposite is too often riddled with issues:

  • immigrants trapped in a bubble with a glass ceiling
  • issues with compliance with local laws
  • puts immigrants more at risk of discrimination
  • tends to keep immigrants tied to poorer areas and creates a sub-culture that re-enforcers the cycle

I hope the execution of any such policy is more inclusive and less confrontational that it sounds.
 
Then why is the measure not a blanket measure? Expel Britons now.

I agree, and I'm not being facetious. I think Germany absolutely has the right to impose language requirements on immigrants. By all means, apply them to Britons once the EU falls to bits in the next few years.

The EU was an interesting experiment, but I don't think it worked / is working. The UK has language requirements for non-EU immigrants (as well as a bunch of other requirements), but we can't impose them on the 27 countries nearest to us for some reason. Makes zero sense to me.
 
Language is what created this country many hundred years ago. The holy roman Empire of German Nation was the result. The language was and is what defines us. So, you are correct. If someone has blue skin, three eyes, four armes but speaks german and accepts/follows the law then you are german.

Sorry, that is not true. You won't be handled as trash and you will legaly be a german but there is still discrimation in society.
However, I welcome the initiative. The integration policy from the of 1960 up to 1990 should never be forgotten.
 
I agree, and I'm not being facetious. I think Germany absolutely has the right to impose language requirements on immigrants. By all means, apply them to Britons once the EU falls to bits in the next few years.

The EU was an interesting experiment, but I don't think it worked / is working. The UK has language requirements for non-EU immigrants (as well as a bunch of other requirements), but we can't impose them on the 27 countries nearest to us for some reason. Makes zero sense to me.
Makes plenty of sense. There is free movement of people, so you can't impose those rules. The UK can't impose it on other EU citizens, those other EU countries can't impose it on UK citizens. That's the deal that is made when you join the EU and sign the agreements.
 

KonradLaw

Member
The EU was an interesting experiment, but I don't think it worked / is working. The UK has language requirements for non-EU immigrants (as well as a bunch of other requirements), but we can't impose them on the 27 countries nearest to us for some reason. Makes zero sense to me.

Freedom of movement. Simple as that. If people and products from EU countries would have to obey to exact same restrictions and requirements as those from outside the EU then what's the point of the union in the first place? And if you start to introduce such requirements why wouldn't other countries put anti-UK requirements in their markets?
The whole union's purpose was to create effectively single market, for both products, as well as workers.
 

dity

Member
I don't think it's going to help anything. Why not be acceptinf the other way around? I live in Australia and I see Chinese adverts from the government. My reaponse to that was "cool beans" since it's a 180 from my country's previous views. 10 years ago the government was basically "learn English or get fucked" and now we're accepting foreign language communities instead.

I don't think "learn our language or get fucked" works.
 

Maedre

Banned
Sorry, that is not true. You won't be handled as trash and you will legaly be a german but there is still discrimation in society.
However, I welcome the initiative. The integration policy from the of 1960 up to 1990 should never be forgotten.

ok, maybe thats more my mindset and that of the world around me. You are right i can't speak for the whole country.
 
Makes plenty of sense. There is free movement of people, so you can't impose those rules. The UK can't impose it on other EU citizens, those other EU countries can't impose it on UK citizens. That's the deal that is made when you join the EU and sign the agreements.

"This is not a why, this is not a reason", to quote that French guy from the Matrix sequels.

I understand that we've made a deal. I don't think it was the right choice.

By having language requirements for non-EU immigrants, we're flat out saying "we think that speaking English is essential if you want to come live in the UK". We've codified that. Coming here from Pakistan? You'd better speak English mate.

At the same time, we've entered into an agreement that directly contradicts this line of thought - both for immigrants coming to the UK and for Britons living and working in the EU. Do you follow?

Edit:

Freedom of movement. Simple as that. If people and products from EU countries would have to obey to exact same restrictions and requirements as those from outside the EU then what's the point of the union in the first place? And if you start to introduce such requirements why wouldn't other countries put anti-UK requirements in their markets?
The whole union's purpose was to create effectively single market, for both products, as well as workers.

Correct. And now we see 40-50 years down the line that following that train of thought to its logical conclusion means that your country completely disappears. Some welcome this (in favour of a pan-European superstate), I don't.
 
"This is not a why, this is not a reason", to quote that French guy from the Matrix sequels.

I understand that we've made a deal. I don't think it was the right choice.

By having language requirements for non-EU immigrants, we're flat out saying "we think that speaking English is essential if you want to come live in the UK". We've codified that. Coming here from Pakistan? You'd better speak English mate.

At the same time, we've entered into an agreement that directly contradicts this line of thought - both for immigrants coming to the UK and for Britons living and working in the EU. Do you follow?
There are a lot of double standards with this. Same reason someone from the UK will have an easier time moving to Australia then someone from Indonesia or wherever.

Agreements were signed because those countries at that point thought it is beneficial to them. The free movement of people is for economic benefit (at least that is the idea, you might disagree if there is actually a benefit, although I think there is).

Difference between these groups is also employment. As a EU citizen, you can get right to work and start contributing taxes and such (and receive benefits if applicable). If you don't get a job soon, the idea is you will just go back to your own country.

Correct. And now we see 40-50 years down the line that following that train of thought to its logical conclusion means that your country completely disappears. Some welcome this (in favour of a pan-European superstate), I don't.
This is a totally different argument. And in my opinion a bit of an overreaction, which we have seen plenty of times from the UK lately. I haven't seen any countries disappear and it won't happen also. Even the most pro-EU countries are not voting in that direction at all.
 
I can imagine Oktoberfest... Nein he is not drinking beer he is not integrated!

But I am of the opinion if you are going to move to another country you need to know the language before you go, or be a very quick learner. I knew a guy who went to Spain to live 10 years ago... He is moving back but never bothered learning the language, left it to his wife!

Integration is a difficult thing to do as they will want to stay with other immigrants as they share the same language and culture. They made the mistake by letting so many in, they should have done it more slowly and concentrate on the smaller number coming in over a longer period of time rather than open the floodgate and flounder around trying to sort everything out.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I think one of the main road blocks is going to be that the immigrants will refuse to allow their girls to attend schools or integrate in any way.

Well, then those people have to give up that stance o they have no place in Germany. As a lefty myself the idea behind this I certainly appreciate, though of course it depends on the actual rules put forth. Learning German, not discriminating your wife / daughters and putting an effort towards getting a job should certainly be a requirement to stay in Germany beyond the time that is necessary to escape the wrongs that led to being granted asylum. Who in their right mind would want additional people in their country that try to keep their children from education?

Reagrding the question if English suffices to live in Germany: If you are working in an academic position or one that requires academic degrees often yes, but for many jobs, particularly those of lower educational levels, being fluent in German is required.
 
There are a lot of double standards with this. Same reason someone from the UK will have an easier time moving to Australia then someone from Indonesia or wherever.

Agreements were signed because those countries at that point thought it is beneficial to them. The free movement of people is for economic benefit (at least that is the idea, you might disagree if there is actually a benefit, although I think there is).

Difference between these groups is also employment. As a EU citizen, you can get right to work and start contributing taxes and such (and receive benefits if applicable). If you don't get a job soon, the idea is you will just go back to your own country.

This is a totally different argument. And in my opinion a bit of an overreaction, which we have seen plenty of times from the UK lately. I haven't seen any countries disappear and it won't happen also. Even the most pro-EU countries are not voting in that direction at all.

Well, I'll save it for the Brexit OT (thought there would be an official thread up by now...).
 
One thing's for sure, we can't have true integration with groups living concentrated in poor areas almost as separate societies. Embracing some of the values and respecting the rules of the country you chose to live in is the minimum expected from you. You don't lose you cultural identify because of it. And I'm talking about immigration in general, not just poor migrants.

It seems reasonable on paper, but it will be hard to quantify how "integrated" one is. But if there's one country in the EU with the education and resources to do it is Germany.
 

oti

Banned
Being german historically means talking german.

You can be the most exotic looking person, but if you are talking perfect german, or even better, some dialect like bavarian, people will not think of you as a foreigner anymore (well, at least in western germany that's the case. Don't know about eastern Germany in this regard)

Nein.

My parents immigrated to Germany before I was born. I had to go to the "German for Non-native speakers" class my school offered. It was mandatory. Thing is I had the best German grades in my class but that didn't matter. I still had to go. I didn't mind, it was fun and the teachers were all really nice to us. I'm sure there are still classes like this but budgets for schools must be tight nowadays.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Correct. And now we see 40-50 years down the line that following that train of thought to its logical conclusion means that your country completely disappears. Some welcome this (in favour of a pan-European superstate), I don't.

So I guess if UK leaves EU you will also be fiercely opposed to making any free trade deals? After all those kind of deals' logical conclusions is dissapearance of countries? :)

Seriously, I don't support superstate, but economical cooperation and removal of barriers is always good. It's just that this is what the EU should be limited to, just economical union. It doesn't always bring solely benefits. I for example hate how UK and rest of western countries are leeching off polish' education systems, where we spend fortune to educate people for free just so they can move to western country, but it's just a price to pay for other benefits.
If you think any country can get a deal where they get only benefits without sacrificing anything in return that's just not realistic.
 

TBiddy

Member
In Denmark we have something similar, and have had for quite a while. If you migrate/flee to Denmark and wish to have your family join you, the familiy (I assume there's a certain age limit) will need to pass a test in Danish inside 6 months, in order to stay. I don't know how tightly regulated this area is, though, but the rules are in place.

Also, if you wish to receive a Danish citizenship, there's a more advanced test you need to pass as well.

There's no requirement to "integrate", though, since it's a really hard thing to define.
 
learning another language, doing written and spoken tests. . . these tests had better be free to plus the courses to learn them better be free.

In other countries like the UK I think they have to pay for everything when applying for anything (residency/citizenship etc), but then they don't have an open border policy. Germany making people fleeing war pay for them or lose residency would be cynical.
 
Nein.

My parents immigrated to Germany before I was born. I had to go to the "German for Non-native speakers" class my school offered. It was mandatory. Thing is I had the best German grades in my class but that didn't matter. I still had to go. I didn't mind, it was fun and the teachers were all really nice to us. I'm sure there are still classes like this but budgets for schools must be tight nowadays.
As if people won't love you if you are exotic looking and speaking some german dialect.

E.g. Django Asyl, Bülent Ceylan, etc
 
learning another language, doing written and spoken tests. . . these tests had better be free to plus the courses to learn them better be free.

In other countries like the UK I think they have to pay for everything when applying for anything (residency/citizenship etc).
I doubt they are going to have refugees paying for those courses.

If you want to immigrate from a safe country, I think is is more then fair to pay for your application.
 

iPaul93

Member
Isn't this a given?I mean if you can't be bothered to even learn the language,you have no respect for that country.
 
So I guess if UK leaves EU you will also be fiercely opposed to making any free trade deals? After all those kind of deals' logical conclusions is dissapearance of countries? :)

Seriously, I don't support superstate, but economical cooperation and removal of barriers is always good. It's just that this is what the EU should be limited to, just economical union. It doesn't always bring solely benefits. I for example hate how UK and rest of western countries are leeching off polish' education systems, where we spend fortune to educate people for free just so they can move to western country, but it's just a price to pay for other benefits.
If you think any country can get a deal where they get only benefits without sacrificing anything in return that's just not realistic.

Free trade deals =/= free movement of people.

In the EU debate, people often combine these two as if they MUST go hand in hand, but I don't think they do...

Again, I don't want to start getting a reputation for just using any old thread as an outlet for my anti-EU ravings, so I'll save a more substantive response to this for the proper thread if that's ok (I also don't want to look like I'm wussing out).
 
Well, then those people have to give up that stance o they have no place in Germany. As a lefty myself the idea behind this I certainly appreciate, though of course it depends on the actual rules put forth. Learning German, not discriminating your wife / daughters and putting an effort towards getting a job should certainly be a requirement to stay in Germany beyond the time that is necessary to escape the wrongs that led to being granted asylum. Who in their right mind would want additional people in their country that try to keep their children from education?

Reagrding the question if English suffices to live in Germany: If you are working in an academic position or one that requires academic degrees often yes, but for many jobs, particularly those of lower educational levels, being fluent in German is required.

You do know the parents get punished if they don't send their kids to school or homeschool them, the latter immigrants are unlikely to be able to. Also what's the point of "you deny your kids education so we'll send you and your kids back to where you can do that unhindered"?
 
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