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[ClosingADoor]

You do know the parents get punished if they don't send their kids to school or homeschool them, the latter immigrants are unlikely to be able to. Also what's the point of "you deny your kids education so we'll send you and your kids back to where you can do that unhindered"?

Because that is something the parents don't want, so they will more likely comply with the demand. A very reasonable demand of sending your kids to school and have your wife and daughter free to get an education - and later on a job.

What else would you do? Everything you punish the parents with, will in the end also punish the kid unfortunately.

 

[Raist]

How is that mean? How are people suppose to actually get services or live when they can't speak the local language? Should their be an interpreter at every hospital, police station, office building, school?

What if you have a meeting with your childs teacher? Should it not be in German? Or is an interpreter needed then too?

It's a joke dude. You know, German being a pain to learn and stuff.

 

[Maedre]

You do know the parents get punished if they don't send their kids to school or homeschool them, the latter immigrants are unlikely to be able to. Also what's the point of "you deny your kids education so we'll send you and your kids back to where you can do that unhindered"?

Kids have to go to the school, Thats the law and its a good one.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Because that is something the parents don't want, so they will more likely comply with the demand. A very reasonable demand of sending your kids to school and have your wife and daughter free to get an education - and later on a job.

What else would you do? Everything you punish the parents with, will in the end also punish the kid unfortunately.

If the parents refuse to comply the kids can and will literally be escorted to school if necessary.

I just don't see how increasing the penalty for it is in any way effective or how it's going to benefit the kids.

Kids have to go to the school, Thats the law and its a good one.

Yes that's the point.

 

[ClosingADoor]

If the parents refuse to comply the kids can and will literally be escorted to school if necessary.

I just don't see how increasing the penalty for it is in any way effective or how it's going to benefit the kids.

It benefits the kids by forcing the parents to sent them to school.

I don't know how much of a problem this is in Germany, but if it happens then I think not renewing their visa is a fair thing to do, since they are breaking the law.

 

[Maedre]

If the parents refuse to comply the kids can and will literally be escorted to school if necessary.

I just don't see how increasing the penalty for it is in any way effective or how it's going to benefit the kids.



Yes that's the point.

We had a turkish Girl in our class where the parents tried to let her stay at home. It took years until the parents got really in trouble. Waht do you think happend to her?She left the school as fast as possible and is now a mother of five and bound at home. Her german skills were... not existent. There are so many of them. To much... its yust heartbreaking to see them slowly vanish.

 

[Caayn]

Seems really reasonable, I like it.

Now I hope that other countries will follow and that it'll be actively enforced.

 

[KDR_11k]

Good point actually, will we eject Bavarians who don't speak intelligible German?

I think one of the main road blocks is going to be that the immigrants will refuse to allow their girls to attend schools or integrate in any way.

Eh, they'll have to adjust. I don't think it's worth worrying about that before it even happens though.

 

[Jisgsaw]

Good point actually, will we eject Bavarians who don't speak intelligible German?

That would give us a good reason to restore the glorious bavarian kingdom, so yeah, why not.

/s On topic:
I haven't followed the resettling of refugees, but a good step toward integration would be to avoid what happened in France (and in most countries really): the concentration of immigrants in certain districts. Spread them out throughout the cities, it'll help tremendously to avoid their seclusion.

 

[Can Crusher]

I agree, either integrate or get the fuck out.

 

[Winnie the Pimp]

If we are talking about the enormous differences and hurdles of integration, one of those being big cultural differences, how, if not by language, would you even BEGIN to try and bridge those gaps?

Mutual understanding is by definition achieved by understanding one another, and for that you need a common language. We'd learn arabic (and i am sure a lot even do) but the fact is that they are the ones coming here and not the other way around so i'd say it's somewhat reasonable to expect them to learn the language of the land.

edit: I suppose, English as a common language would work as an intermediate step, but in the end, true integration WILL require the language that the majority of a country speaks commonly.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I look forward to how they decide to empirically measure "integration".

Or how they plan to somehow plan to stifle the numerous cultures that are crossing their border.

In general, this seems to misunderstand how culture works.

I think "our daughters are forbidden from learning to read or write" is a complete non starter for integration into Western Europe. If you moved for opportunity, you have to accept it for your whole family.

 

[Replicant]

I don't think it's going to help anything. Why not be acceptinf the other way around? I live in Australia and I see Chinese adverts from the government. My reaponse to that was "cool beans" since it's a 180 from my country's previous views. 10 years ago the government was basically "learn English or get fucked" and now we're accepting foreign language communities instead.

I don't think "learn our language or get fucked" works.

Some of those adverts are mostly to help the elderly who are already in Australia, likely to encourage them to register for either election or to learn English if they migrated due to the children sponsoring them.

Most migrants, however, especially the young ones, still need to be able to pass the English language requirement level. I should know since I was one as well and unless you get 7.5 on IELTS test, IIRC, or have Australian university degree, you likely won't get residency status. And I think they already made it tougher in the past 5 or so years to increase the quality of migrants that we receive here.

 

[YoungFa]

That would give us a good reason to restore the glorious bavarian kingdom, so yeah, why not.

/s On topic:
I haven't followed the resettling of refugees, but a good step toward integration would be to avoid what happened in France (and in most countries really): the concentration of immigrants in certain districts. Spread them out throughout the cities, it'll help tremendously to avoid their seclusion.

He also proposed that the state can decide where they can live if they want to keep their benefits. A measure to prevent the formation of getthos.

 

[Chittagong]

Finally, Germany growing some balls.

I guess the AfD gains hit finally home the message. The legislation will be incredibly hard to enforce. While language and job offers are clear cut, the cultural part is less so. How do you measure whether a migrant oppresses women, are hostile to gay people or intolerant of other religions and against freedom of speech.

Anyway, this is a start.

 

[Yoshi]

You do know the parents get punished if they don't send their kids to school or homeschool them, the latter immigrants are unlikely to be able to. Also what's the point of "you deny your kids education so we'll send you and your kids back to where you can do that unhindered"?

Home schooling is not an option in Germany. Luckily,

 

[Cappa]

Is learning German actually necessary to get by in Germany? When I visited basically everyone spoke English, seriously, everyone.

I guess you weren't in Berlin or just got lucky. I had a ton of trouble finding someone who spoke good English and if they did they were usually under 30. Older folks spoke very little if any English at all.

 

[Any Questions]

Lederhosen

Beer and pork mandatory

 

[CadetMahoney]

Normally with governments with or without open border policies, the status of refugee isn't automatic, with the government trolling applicants making them wait and wait for a decision (i.e. UK government) since it gives people equal footing with full citizens without having to pass any tests or requires any fees (they're fleeing from war so no language barriers or revokation based on language since that would be trolling). Basically if someone is given protection on the basis of the Refugee Convention or Article 3 of the ECHR it cannot be revoked based on language or used as a barrier to apply for it in the first place.

If you have refugee status, you don't have to pass any tests since you're fleeing war etc. and you can work legally and get benefits just like regular citizens. Unless Germany redfines legally what refugee means and what they can expect once becoming one (as opposed to an Asylum Seeker - someone who hasn't been vetted).

So i'm guessing all these people don't have refugee status yet? This way they can create language requirements and it will not lead to undermining the legal status of "refugee" since they never where given that legal status yet (being able to work legally etc.) But this begs the question with language being used as a barrier to apply for Asylum in the first place. If the following explicitly states they cannot be penalized for illegal entry what moreso than some language requirement?

Article 31

Article 31 of the 1951 Refugee Convention prohibits states from penalising a refugee for illegal entry when the purpose of their entry is to claim asylum.

Will we eject Bavarians who don't speak intelligible German?

I'd imagine existing citizens who wouldn't be able to pass any tests are smiling, plus no way will anything happen to them. Any idea when language requirements started? I know for France and UK it was within the last 10 years.

 

[scamander]

...

Read again. This is about requirements refugees need to meet, if they want to stay permanently in Germany.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Normally with governments with or without open border policies, the status of refugee isn't automatic, with the government trolling applicants making them wait and wait for a decision (i.e. UK government) since it gives people equal footing with full citizens without having to pass any tests or requires any fees (they're fleeing from war so no language barriers or revokation based on language since that would be trolling). Basically if someone is given protection on the basis of the Refugee Convention or Article 3 of the ECHR it cannot be revoked based on language or used as a barrier to apply for it in the first place.

If you have refugee status, you don't have to pass any tests since you're fleeing war etc. and you can work legally and get benefits just like regular citizens. Unless Germany redfines legally what refugee means and what they can expect once becoming one (as opposed to an Asylum Seeker - someone who hasn't been vetted).

So i'm guessing all these people don't have refugee status yet? This way they can create language requirements and it will not lead to undermining the legal status of "refugee" since they never where given that legal status yet (being able to work legally etc.) But this begs the question with language being used as a barrier to apply for Asylum in the first place. If the following explicitly states they cannot be penalized for illegal entry what moreso than some language requirement?

As a refugee you get a temporary status for 1 to 3 years. After that you can get a permanent status. From what he is saying in the article, it just seems like people not putting effort in towards integrating into German society will not get that permanent status. Very reasonable thing to do.

"For those who refuse to learn German, for those who refuse to allow their relatives to integrate - for instance women or girls - for those who reject job offers: for them, there cannot be an unlimited settlement permit after three years," he said.

 

[Diprosalic]

Is learning German actually necessary to get by in Germany? When I visited basically everyone spoke English, seriously, everyone.

no languages is required to get by but speaking one might help you when applying for jobs.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Read again. This is about requirements refugees need to meet, if they want to stay permanently in Germany.

They will have to change the laws since the existing ones don't account for language requirements.

So you will end up people who are legit asylum seekers allowed on humanitarian grounds being revoked later whereas they currently aren't in places like the UK (ending up with EU countries playing by different rules, unless they too change their laws).

You could not be doing anything wrong or any harm to anyone, but being revoked anyway since you couldn't pass any language tests. If every country races to the bottom than I expect a lot of rejected applications for people applying on humanitarian grounds, moreso than before. Legit refugees from the third world might not even be formally educated and have the wherewithal to learn a new language and pass these tests.

 

[formasymphonic]

Well, if you are going to be spending 3+ years in a country — you are going to need to learn the language and get a job.

The kicker will revolve around what jobs they are being "offered" that they will be punished for rejecting.

 

[ClosingADoor]

They will have to change the laws since the existing ones don't account for language requirements.

So you will end up people who are legit asylum seekers allowed on humanitarian grounds being revoked later whereas they currently aren't in places like the UK (ending up with EU countries playing by different rules, unless they too change their laws).

You could not be doing anything wrong or any harm to anyone, but being revoked anyway since you couldn't pass any language tests. If every country races to the bottom than I expect a lot of rejected applications for people applying on humanitarian grounds, moreso than before. Legit refugees from the third world might not even be formally educated and have the wherewithal to learn a new language and pass these tests.

They will just not get a permanent stay. They are not sent back to a warzone, since that is impossible.

Maybe they need to change some German law, but I don't see how this would violate any other treaty.

Nothing is being revoked, the temporary stay is just not transferred to a permanent stay like it would otherwise.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

To be honest, I feel that it should be common courtesy anywhere if you are immigrating to a country to learn the language. Its just rude to expect people to make provisions for you.

As a brit, I think we are some of the worst offenders of this.

 

[CadetMahoney]

They will just not get a permanent stay. They are not sent back to a warzone, since that is impossible.

Maybe they need to change some German law, but I don't see how this would violate any other treaty.

Nothing is being revoked, the temporary stay is just not transferred to a permanent stay like it would otherwise.

Even failed applicants are rarely, if ever, deported anyway, but it would still result in the difference between applying in UK as opposed to Germany. Treating humanitarian grounds differently. Also that last line sounds like politician talk, sounds like they can be temporary stayers permanently. Can they continue working legally? What are the consequences? Should people who cannot pass the tests be worried?

 

[scamander]

Even failed applicants are rarely, if ever, deported anyway, but it would still result in the difference between applying in UK as opposed to Germany. Treating humanitarian grounds differently. Also that last line sounds like politician talk, sounds like they can be temporary stayers permanently. Can they continue working legally? What are the consequences? Should people who cannot pass the tests be worried?

Just read the damn article, for god's sake:

"For those who refuse to learn German, for those who refuse to allow their relatives to integrate - for instance women or girls - for those who reject job offers: for them, there cannot be an unlimited settlement permit after three years," he said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_residence_permit#Unlimited_residence_permit

Oh and the UK clearly established the gold standard in how to treat refugees properly:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/refugee-crisis-thousands-of-child-asylum-seekers-deported-back-to-war-zones-home-office-admits-a6863776.html

 

[Nivash]

Even failed applicants are rarely, if ever, deported anyway, but it would still result in the difference between applying in UK as opposed to Germany. Treating humanitarian grounds differently. Also that last line sounds like politician talk, sounds like they can be temporary stayers permanently. Can they continue working legally? What are the consequences? Should people who cannot pass the tests be worried?

Temporary permits are reevaluated every few years. It is theoretically possible for a refugee to stay indefinitely using a temporary permit if the grounds for their asylum haven't changed, or in other words if the war or persecution they're fleeing from never goes away. A permanent permit is as the name implies permanent and can't be revoked even if the reason for the original asylum has gone away. The idea is basically that if you've stayed for years and years you might as well stay forever if you want because you've probably been integrated into society at that point.

The new rule is basically an attempt to put checks on whether or not you actually are integrated. I'm split on this one, I understand the reason for it but I dislike using deportation as a threat in principle; it promotes a two-tier justice system with different rights for different people. I understand that this is already the case because immigrants aren't automatically citizen but restricting their rights shouldn't be handled lightly. Especially not for the purpose of social engineering.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Even failed applicants are rarely, if ever, deported anyway, but it would still result in the difference between applying in UK as opposed to Germany. Treating humanitarian grounds differently. Also that last line sounds like politician talk, sounds like they can be temporary stayers permanently. Can they continue working legally? What are the consequences? Should people who cannot pass the tests be worried?

I don't know all the details, the German government has to work those out.

But to me it seems someone can apply for asylum. If they are accepted, they get a temporary stay. After that period they can apply for a permanent stay. If they have made no effort to learn the language and such, they will be denied that permanent stay. Then if their country of origin is deemed safe they will sent back. People with a permanent stay can keep living in Germany.

The deportation issues are something that needs to be worked out. There is no reason why someone from for example Morocco can not be deported back to their country when they are denied asylum.

There are differences in the asylum process for a lot of countries. The UK has a different process now also compared to Germany. There is nothing wrong with that, every country can make their own laws for this as long as it complies with the treaties they signed.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Oh and the UK clearly established the gold standard in how to treat refugees properly

Tragic. Those children being a ward of the state would probably have even less of a say than adult asylum seekers whos applications are rejected. Previous articles like the one I linked to point to them doing nothing to failed asylum seekers (also negligent and far from a "gold standard" on the governments part).

This, however, doesn't change the comparisons between the (proposed) German laws and the current British ones.

Temporary permits are reevaluated every few years. It is theoretically possible for a refugee to stay indefinitely using a temporary permit if the grounds for their asylum haven't changed, or in other words if the war or persecution they're fleeing from never goes away. A permanent permit is as the name implies permanent and can't be revoked even if the reason for the original asylum has gone away. The idea is basically that if you've stayed for years and years you might as well stay forever if you want because you've probably been integrated into society at that point.

Thanks for the informative, civil reply, I had an idea it's only an issue if you're not allowed to work and the permanent residency allows you to. It would be a big problem then if you could not pass any tests. But the article mentions people who "refuse jobs offered to them" so they clearly are able to (legally).

scamander's link to the requirements for a temporary permit mentions:

"residence under international law or on humanitarian or political grounds"

I am assuming this can stop should Syria be "stable and safe" one day as another poster said.

This integration deadline and tests seems to provide ample leg room if you can't pass the tests. You're still able to work legally on the temporary one and they don't sound too keen on deporting anyone. If Syria is still unstable, you keep getting the temporary one no matter.

The new rule is basically an attempt to put checks on whether or not you actually are integrated. I'm split on this one, I understand the reason for it but I dislike using deportation as a threat in principle; it promotes a two-tier justice system with different rights for different people. I understand that this is already the case because immigrants aren't automatically citizen but restricting their rights shouldn't be handled lightly. Especially not for the purpose of social engineering.

Me too. I think it will be a long time for Syria to become stable before deportaitons becomes a threat, I bet there would be a lack of political will to enforce them from the same government that had the border policies in the first place - considering people who entered on humanitarian grounds and haven't done anything bad except not pass a test, but who knows.

 

[dity]

Some of those adverts are mostly to help the elderly who are already in Australia, likely to encourage them to register for either election or to learn English if they migrated due to the children sponsoring them.

Most migrants, however, especially the young ones, still need to be able to pass the English language requirement level. I should know since I was one as well and unless you get 7.5 on IELTS test, IIRC, or have Australian university degree, you likely won't get residency status. And I think they already made it tougher in the past 5 or so years to increase the quality of migrants that we receive here.

That's a darn shame. I thought I'd finally found a positive about our human rights squandering country.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

Is learning German actually necessary to get by in Germany? When I visited basically everyone spoke English, seriously, everyone.

Err where were you? A lot of people 40+ did not speak it either at all or very, very little in Munich.

In regards to the article, nothing wrong with that. :\

 

[iceatcs]

If you have full up country. I agreed. A lot of migrants can integrate but can't get a place.

So I think migrants who won't integrate should fuck off and give the room for any migrants who would integrate.

 

[crazygambit]

"For those who refuse to learn German, for those who refuse to allow their relatives to integrate - for instance women or girls - for those who reject job offers: for them, there cannot be an unlimited settlement permit after three years," he said.

imokwiththis.gif

What more is there to say about it? Seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to demand IMO.

 

[Shredderi]

Ok with this.

 

[WolfForager]

Huh, I've been in Germany for 16 months and still don't speak German.

 

[Cappa]

Err where were you? A lot of people 40+ did not speak it either at all or very, very little in Munich.

In regards to the article, nothing wrong with that. :

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that experienced this. In Berlin the only people that spoke English were younger than me(I'm 29)

Huh, I've been in Germany for 16 months and still don't speak German.

Why not? Do you only socialize with other expats? Everything is in German AFAIK from my limited experiences visiting Germany.

I know alot of people do it(go to a country and never learn the language) but i was always curious as to why move to a place and then not actually learn the language.

 

[WolfForager]

Why not? Do you only socialize with other expats? Everything is in German AFAIK from my limited experiences visiting Germany.

I know alot of people do it(go to a country and never learn the language) but i was always curious as to why move to a place and then not actually learn the language.

My work is all in English, even the German sub-contractors that work with us all speak English.

I socialize with English and German speaking people however the de-facto language is always English.

 

[Greddleok]

My work is all in English, even the German sub-contractors that work with us all speak English.

I socialize with English and German speaking people however the de-facto language is always English.

My experience too. I don't know any ex-pats or native English speakers. I socialise with a mixed nationality group, where we all just speak English because everyone is fluent.

 

[spwolf]

In Canada it would be pretty stupid to lose your citizenship because you don't speak English or French. I mean, some people learn slowly, and how much do they really need to know? Are they going to lose their citizenship if they get 59% instead of a passing grade of 60%?

So like I said, I expect some sort of EU citizenship to come up as a way to make EU members go forward with tighter regulations for their own citizenships, this way they can be more strict if they want to without causing people to excessively punished for not getting one country's citizenship. Basically EU citizenship becomes a "safety net", giving people the time to get citizenship in some country.

These people are not citizens. Just like i can not get citizenship by simply going to canada, these immigrants cant easily get eu citizenship or pernament residency. Most of the immigrants will be returned once war stops, and these new rules are for ones that are allowed to stay pernamently. In USA to gain citizenship you have to pass language and history tests, similar to what is proposed here.

Of if you are US citizen, you dont have to pass these tests and you dont lose citizenship if you dont know the history.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Is the government providing free German lessons? It's a pretty difficult language to learn

 

[ClosingADoor]

Huh, I've been in Germany for 16 months and still don't speak German.

You probably did not come there as a refugee or jobless immigrant. So nobody cares then. You provide for yourself. When you lose your job, still stay in Germany and live on their taxpayer money, it will be a problem.

Is the government providing free German lessons? It's a pretty difficult language to learn

Yes, they do.

 

[mantidor]

The language thing is a bit of a problem, not everyone can learn german, it's difficult.

But stuff like not letting your daughter into school? yeah, that is all kinds of wrong.

 

[Archer]

Yes. Homeschooling is also illegal

Good.

 

[Jumeira]

So I guess if UK leaves EU you will also be fiercely opposed to making any free trade deals? After all those kind of deals' logical conclusions is dissapearance of countries?

Seriously, I don't support superstate, but economical cooperation and removal of barriers is always good. It's just that this is what the EU should be limited to, just economical union. It doesn't always bring solely benefits. I for example hate how UK and rest of western countries are leeching off polish' education systems, where we spend fortune to educate people for free just so they can move to western country, but it's just a price to pay for other benefits.
If you think any country can get a deal where they get only benefits without sacrificing anything in return that's just not realistic.

I wouldn't say we're leeching from Poland or any country. Most migrants from eastern Europe are in low paid jobs here, workers in skilled areas are here because of the attractive salaries in comparison to local offers. I guess if we can't fill those positions here we extend outside of the EU, there's no shortage of talent to open up to.

 

[Greddleok]

The language thing is a bit of a problem, not everyone can learn german, it's difficult.

But stuff like not letting your daughter into school? yeah, that is all kinds of wrong.

The requirements to gain citizenship are lax when it comes to your level of German. You don't need to be fluent.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The language thing is a bit of a problem, not everyone can learn german, it's difficult.

But stuff like not letting your daughter into school? yeah, that is all kinds of wrong.

You can learn the basics if you put effort in it and use it. It is more difficult when you close yourself off and don't interact with German speaking people or consume some German media and such.

 

[Goliath]

Up until the early 1900's. Before cars and transport were readily available. Before areas were densely populated. In a time where schooling was probably pretty rubbish...

Its now 2016.

All my grandparents moved from Germany to the USA before and after the war. They all left German behind them and never even taught their kids German. My dad only learned German because thats what he learned in school as one of the languages he could pick. None of my grandparents on either side spoke German to their kids.

Its pretty easy to integrate if you want to.

That's how the Hispanic community is in the U.S. The first generation only know Spanish with some English, the second generation is Bilingual and the third generation can't understand the first generation.

 

[RoadHazard]

A genuine effort to integrate should absolutely be mandatory. That doesn't mean you have to leave everything about your old culture behind, but yeah. People who don't integrate never become productive members of their new society. Everlasting segregation is a big threat in many ways.

This is coming from a Swedish perspective, where we obviously already see, and will be getting more of, major issues related to this.