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Ghost in the Shell's ending spurs new accusations of even worse whitewashing

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V

Volimar

Member
Now that GITS is underperforming in its opening weekend, do you think it would have gone better if they had just localized the whole thing? Move it to future Los Angeles, dump the Major reveal, have mostly American actors. I mean localizations happen all the time without controversy. But would it still have been GITS?


I wonder what the monetary gain/loss ratio really is of having ScarJo there instead of an japanese actress.
 
T

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Volimar said:
Now that GITS is underperforming in its opening weekend, do you think it would have gone better if they had just localized the whole thing? Move it to future Los Angeles, dump the Major reveal, have mostly American actors. I mean localizations happen all the time without controversy.
Click to expand...

Probably not. The thing is: Cyberpunk is niche. The controversy with the main character helped nothing.
 
milkham

milkham

Member
Doctoglethorpe said:
No actually I didn't. She's Mexican for the record, and the word is fiancée, not that it matters, all minorities have this issue in Hollywood, its not exclusive to asians, so I think her opinion is valid.

And really? Boiling my entire post down to "my gf liked it"? You guys debate like Trump. You'd think I posted "fuck asians white power" judging by the response it got.

I'm glad I can enjoy movies without dissecting them to the bone by not even watching them.
Click to expand...

There are common defenses that pop up in every one of these threads that boil down to

-my asian gf is fine with it
-anime people are white
-the japanese are ok with it
-only white people have box office power
 
Z

Zero315

Banned
DarthMasta said:
No, I said Hollywood thinks that. Me, seeing how the movie is doing with a "bankable" star think it wouldn't do better with a lesser known Asian lead.

Blockbusters usually require a movie star attached to get made, especially ones thought of as risky. It's as simple as that, and no Asian actress is a ScarJo level movie star, not internationally. Truth be told the amount of female stars the studios would even consider for this sort of expensive blockbuster is probably less than 5, if these last few years are any indication...

The movie could have been done in Japan, with an Asian lead, but it wouldn't be a Hollywood movie.
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You said:
DarthMasta said:
Hollywood feels like there are no Asian actresses that could have played the lead and have the movie be a success, and they're probably right.
Click to expand...

You agree that they are "probably" right that this movie wouldn't have succeeded with an Asian lead.

As for you second point, it has been shown many times in this thread why that's not true at all. Hollywood loves to throw million dollar blockbusters at relatively unknown white guys. Even ScarJo is unproven at the box office because she's only had one film where she was the lead that did well.

Sweeney Tom said:
yes.gif
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giphy.gif
 
D

Doctoglethorpe

Member
WrenchNinja said:
Interesting how you and Arkeband both resort to "you're just like Trump" insults in addition to defending this movie
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I'm not the one who boiled down other people's posts to the most rudimentary and misrepresentative form I could and then base my entire reply on it, while being insulting and even lie in the process. But then again this entire thread is about an overreaction so I guess it doesn't surprise me in retrospect.
 
W

WrenchNinja

Member
Doctoglethorpe said:
I'm not the one who boiled down other people's posts to the most rudimentary and misrepresentative form I could and then base my entire reply on it, while being insulting and even lie in the process. But then again this entire thread is about an overreaction so I guess it doesn't surprise me in retrospect.
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You based your post on

1. The stupid idea that Star Power matters anymore
2. Minimizing the problems minorities face just because your minority fiancee doesn't care
3. Managing to pose yourself as the victim for liking the movie
 
T

tuxfool

Banned
WrenchNinja said:
You based your post on

1. The stupid idea that Star Power matters anymore
2. Minimizing the problems minorities face just because your minority fiancee doesn't care
3. Managing to pose yourself as the victim for liking the movie
Click to expand...

Those certainly are very Trump-like qualities. Add in some projection, accusing others of what they're guilty of and you have a very nice trifecta of Trump argumentation.
 
Z

Zero315

Banned
WrenchNinja said:
3. Managing to pose yourself as the victim for liking the movie
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One thing I don't understand is why some people who like the movie also feel the need to downplay how problematic the race stuff is.

You can still like the movie AND think its handling of race is problematic.
 
A

Atraveller

Banned
Doctoglethorpe said:
I'm not the one who boiled down other people's posts to the most rudimentary and misrepresentative form I could and then base my entire reply on it, while being insulting and even lie in the process. But then again this entire thread is about an overreaction so I guess it doesn't surprise me in retrospect.
Click to expand...
I like how you play victim and writes off racism against Asians at the same time.
 
J

J-Skee

Member
Maybe something is wrong with me. I never see an issue with the "whitewashing" that everyone is complaining. There are Asians, whites, blacks, hispanics, & so on in this film. I understand that the Major is a different race in the film & TV series, but they're so far off into the future & the version of Japan is so diverse, I just never seen it as an issue.

Am I wrong for thinking like this?
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
SuperStiltzkin said:
Just because your mexican girlfriend is okay with it, doesn't mean everyone else is overreacting. I'm asian and I think it's bullshit.
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I think it's numerical so you only cancel out his girlfriend.

I'm Asian American and I think it's bullshit. I remember someone else earlier in the thread said they were Asian and okay with it, so the score is still at 0.

Let's have more people volunteer whether they're a minority or not so we can keep a running tally. Once we total it all up, then we can determine if we're allowed to care about this or not.

To make it fair, these are the points for your "minoritiness" and how much value your own opinion has on the validity of this discussion.

White: 0.4
Non-American Asian: 0.8
Black, Hispanic or Latino: 1
Asian American: 1.2
 
S

SuperStiltzkin

Member
J-Skee said:
Maybe something is wrong with me. I never see an issue with the "whitewashing" that everyone is complaining. There are Asians, whites, blacks, hispanics, & so on in this film. I understand that the Major is a different race in the film & TV series, but they're so far off into the future & the version of Japan is so diverse, I just never seen it as an issue.

Am I wrong for thinking like this?
Click to expand...

Minorities being colorful background extras and supporting characters while white main characters take center stage has been going on forever. I'm not gonna ask you to care about something on my behalf, just don't use that as a justification for why whitewashing is okay.
 
A

Atraveller

Banned
Haly said:
I think it's numerical so you only cancel out his girlfriend.

I'm Asian American and I think it's bullshit. I remember someone else earlier in the thread said they were Asian and okay with it, so the score is still at 0.

Let's have more people volunteer whether they're a minority or not so we can keep a running tally. Once we total it all up, then we can determine if we're allowed to care about this or not.

To make it fair, these are the points for your "minoritiness" and how much value your own opinion has on the validity of this discussion.

White: 0.4
Non-American Asian: 0.8
Black, Hispanic or Latino: 1
Asian American: 1.2
Click to expand...
Count me in as Asian who thinks whitewashing is bad.
 
M

MugiwaraCole

Member
Haly said:
I think it's numerical so you only cancel out his girlfriend.

I'm Asian American and I think it's bullshit. I remember someone else earlier in the thread said they were Asian and okay with it, so the score is still at 0.

Let's have more people volunteer whether they're a minority or not so we can keep a running tally. Once we total it all up, then we can determine if we're allowed to care about this or not.

To make it fair, these are the points for your "minoritiness" and how much value your own opinion has on the validity of this discussion.

White: 0.4
Non-American Asian: 0.8
Black, Hispanic or Latino: 1
Asian American: 1.2
Click to expand...

Put me down as a nigga who knows this is bullshit.
/s (but actually tho)

C8WkydyW0AApqvY.jpg:large
 
T

TickleMeElbow

Member
Haly said:
I think it's numerical so you only cancel out his girlfriend.

I'm Asian American and I think it's bullshit. I remember someone else earlier in the thread said they were Asian and okay with it, so the score is still at 0.

Let's have more people volunteer whether they're a minority or not so we can keep a running tally. Once we total it all up, then we can determine if we're allowed to care about this or not.

To make it fair, these are the points for your "minoritiness" and how much value your own opinion has on the validity of this discussion.

White: 0.4
Non-American Asian: 0.8
Black, Hispanic or Latino: 1
Asian American: 1.2
Click to expand...

I'm half Japanese so put me down as like....0.6? Haha.
 
M

MugiwaraCole

Member
jack_package_200 said:
I get the feeling she or whoever made that shirt didn't see the The Great Wall. The movie is literally about a westerner being awed and inspired by the superiority of eastern (mainly Chinese) values.
Click to expand...

No, it's a movie taking place in China with Chinese people, and a white man as the star.

It doesn't matter if there's a "legit" plot reason for the lead actor to be white. We've had a ton of those movies. Write a fucking movie with an Asian as the lead. Period.
 
S

smileyforall220

Member
MugiwaraCole said:
No, it's a movie taking place in China with Chinese people, and a white man as the star.

It doesn't matter if there's a "legit" plot reason for the lead actor to be white. We've had a ton of those movies. Write a fucking movie with an Asian as the lead. Period.
Click to expand...

You do realize that most Chinese films are at least 90 percent Han Chinese right? Whitewashing isn't a thing in China, Han-washing is. Starting Matt Damon in that film is actually pretty progressive
 
S

SuperStiltzkin

Member
MugiwaraCole said:
No, it's a movie taking place in China with Chinese people, and a white man as the star.

It doesn't matter if there's a "legit" plot reason for the lead actor to be white. We've had a ton of those movies. Write a fucking movie with an Asian as the lead. Period.
Click to expand...

Ironically, I think the Great Wall's reason for having a white dude is better than GitS's.
They didn't put a Chinese man's brain in a Matt Damon body and play that off as some half assed commentary on how terrible whitewashing is.
the Great Wall is a cash grab flag waving movie for China and doesn't pretend to be anything else. On that level I find Great Wall less offensive. GitS is a cash grab that also wants to shoehorn in a half assed commentary on whitewashing in an attempt to put itself above the criticism.

I actually enjoyed Great Wall for the dumb monster movie it is. I could have probably done the same for GitS, BUT they had to pull that shit with the twist.
 
M

MugiwaraCole

Member
smileyforall220 said:
You do realize that most Chinese films are at least 90 percent Han Chinese right? Whitewashing isn't a thing in China, Han-washing is. Starting Matt Damon in that film is actually pretty progressive
Click to expand...

…are you serious?

There is no reality on this planet where casting a white lead is progressive.
 
S

smileyforall220

Member
MugiwaraCole said:
…are you serious?

There is no reality on this planet where casting a white lead is progressive.
Click to expand...

Bollywood, the Chinese film market, the Korean film market, the Japanese film market. Literally most of the world's population concentrated in those areas that have very few white people and a large audience that expects to see themselves in their films. I'm guessing you are American since your perspective is so American-centric
 
T

TickleMeElbow

Member
I wouldn't even be mad about all of the "white person becomes hero of minorities" movies if Hollywood made reverse versions of it.

Like if there was a movie where a ronin washes up on the coast of California and becomes a badass gunslinger, or a black dude goes to Ireland and becomes Lord of the River Dance or some shit.
 
P

Platy

Member
SuperStiltzkin said:
Ironically, I think the Great Wall's reason for having a white dude is better than GitS's.
They didn't put a Chinese man's brain in a Matt Damon body and play that off as some half assed commentary on how terrible whitewashing is.
the Great Wall is a cash grab flag waving movie for China and doesn't pretend to be anything else. On that level I find Great Wall less offensive. GitS is a cash grab that also wants to shoehorn in a half assed commentary on whitewashing in an attempt to put itself above the criticism.

I actually enjoyed Great Wall for the dumb monster movie it is. I could have probably done the same for GitS, BUT they had to pull that shit with the twist.
Click to expand...

And Doctor Strange is better than those because they avoided a character who was a ridiculously offensive stereotype AND choose a 40+ years old women to play the role in a bald (non sexual way) AND she was not even the protagonist.

Still whitewashing.
 
S

smileyforall220

Member
Dash_Riprock said:
Someone is sincerely arguing that right now.

Welcome to Trump's America...
Click to expand...

Actually instead of debating me, you're simply flinging insults. The Great Wall was made in China, not the US, that specific example is not whitewashing. Literally no one is arguing that white people are underrepresented in the US. Reading comprehension, try it.
 
A

Arkeband

Banned
WrenchNinja said:
Interesting how you and Arkeband both resort to "you're just like Trump" insults in addition to defending this movie
Click to expand...

People believing things without proof is certainly Trump-like behavior, I dunno how else to sugar coat it for you. Glad you find the parallel interesting. My comparison to Trump was in regard to people taking one actor's accusation at face value w/r/t Death Note.

Internet circa 2006-2015: "Zack Efron would be the PERFECT Light!!!"
Internet circa this week: "LIGHT IS WHITE?! I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS RHUBARBRHUBARBRHUBARB"

I'm mostly defending the movie (GITS) on a cinematographic and visual standpoint, although I've seen a lot of misinformation regarding how the movie plays out and most people who have seen the movie on GAF have had good reviews of it (including myself), so yeah, sorry I'm not in camp "I haven't seen it... but look at this review #omg #eviscerated #lookatme"
 
J

J-Skee

Member
SuperStiltzkin said:
Minorities being colorful background extras and supporting characters while white main characters take center stage has been going on forever. I'm not gonna ask you to care about something on my behalf, just don't use that as a justification for why whitewashing is okay.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking more along the lines of does her race even matter. For instance, if Tony Stark was Indian, it would not matter at all. But if Black Panther were cast as a non-black person, that's a major issue, considering how much his race matters to his character.

I don't want to be ignorant, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but does the Major's race matter in any media that she appears in?
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Arkeband said:
I'm mostly defending the movie on a cinematographic and visual standpoint, although I've seen a lot of misinformation regarding how the movie plays out and most people who have seen the movie on GAF have had good reviews of it (including myself)
Click to expand...

Most people who have seen the movie do say it's pretty, but it's a stretch to go from that to "had good reviews of it". I've been following both GITS threads and reactions seem to be 50/50. Either you could look past the whitewashing controversy or you couldn't.

I mean I could do a count of it if you really want me to, but I think you're still letting your biases show.
 
J

jack_package_200

Banned
J-Skee said:
I'm thinking more along the lines of does her race even matter. For instance, if Tony Stark was Indian, it would not matter at all. But if Black Panther were cast as a non-black person, that's a major issue, considering how much his race matters to his character.

I don't want to be ignorant, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but does the Major's race matter in any media that she appears in?
Click to expand...

Well in the 2017film, the writers made her race matter in a really stupid way.
 
P

Poor GRIMES

Banned
smileyforall220 said:
Bollywood, the Chinese film market, the Korean film market, the Japanese film market. Literally most of the world's population concentrated in those areas that have very few white people and a large audience that expects to see themselves in their films. I'm guessing you are American since your perspective is so American-centric
Click to expand...
Who feeds you this shit?
 
K

krazen

Member
smileyforall220 said:
Actually instead of debating me, you're simply flinging insults. The Great Wall was made in China, not the US, that specific example is not whitewashing. Literally no one is arguing that white people are underrepresented in the US. Reading comprehension, try it.
Click to expand...

To counter the Hollywood white washing comment you literally used as a counter, "Well in (insert foreign movie market) they only have their own natives play those roles!"

The problem is that when Hollywood is involved, its 95% percent of the time a white cast no matter what the setting, in one of the most diverse countries (and talent pools to draw from) in the world unlike Bollywood, Japan, etc. Bringing up, 'Han-washing' is a disingenuous strawman.
 
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