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Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective |OT| Spoiler: The Main Character Dies
- Thread starter ShockingAlberto
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Pureauthor
Member
Cosmo Clock 21 said:
Because he was asked, and he elaborated.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
idgiAmir0x said:
Considering Shu Takumi has written Phoenix Wright games with "this is stupid" plot twists, an entire spoiler thread for GT, several posts of people going "so guys what did you think of the PLOT TWIST?" followed by a giant block of spoiler text, plus the fact that the premise of the game is "hey you're a time-traveling poltergeist" then yes you probably should expect potentially controversial and illogical plot developments
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its worth noting that 999 actually starts out pretty poorly written (the style feels amateurish in places), and it actually makes a huge jump in quality as the game progresses. Its a very striking contrast.Amir0x said:
Ghost Trick felt a bit more illogical and disjointed, but I enjoyed it all the same. Well written game, not quite to the standards of the better AA games but still great for an adventure game.
Crash Station
Member
Goddamit Ami :/
Don't play 999.
Oh, we don't think it's poorly written. We just know you'll nitpick pointless things like you're doing here and mess up an otherwise fun discussion in the OT.
Don't play 999.
Amir0x said:
Oh, we don't think it's poorly written. We just know you'll nitpick pointless things like you're doing here and mess up an otherwise fun discussion in the OT.
jstadragon
Member
My friend recently reviewed Ghost Trick for our new website @ http://www.roundinfinity.com/2011/01/19/reviews/ghost-trick-never-turn-down-help-from-the-dead/ He pretty much liked it for the style, gameplay was simple, but had 0 replay value. Give it a read if you guys are still deciding. 
Amir0x said:
Yeah, but I don't feel that the game breaks internal logic - it merely takes some acceptable breaks from reality. To take Jowd for an example, his
melodrama and 'I killed a man' kind of thinking despite not really killing a man
Additionally, regarding Kamila:
the device didn't misfire, it was specifically constructed (with the manipulator's help) to kill. How would that end up looking by a police investigation?
Attackthebase
Member
Amir0x said:
What game(s) would you say have a good story? I'm honestly curious, since I have never heard you call a game actually good (for its story elements). If such a game exists, I would love to actually play it, since you ALWAYS back up your opinions with details and evidence.
Crash Station
Member
Attackthebase said:
He likes Mother 3 which I would say actually requires you to suspend your disbelief even more than this.
The Hermit
Member
The OST of this game near the end is espetacular...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVjLYIl-QnI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LC8CEs-j1I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVjLYIl-QnI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LC8CEs-j1I
sechsterangriff
Member
Any news on the iPhone version?
cosmicblizzard said:
You know what, this is offensive and insulting. I pointed out many significant aspects of the game with absolutely no particular vitriol or hatred toward anything or anybody. I posted in a great amount of detail the problems I had. I said what I liked, and what I didn't like, and then you behave in this immature way about the content.
It's INFURIATING to be completely unable to participate in any topic without the sacred cow whiners bitching that shit they like is being critiqued unfairly somehow.
If GAF ever wonders why there is this perception that I come into threads and they magically get derailed, it's because of this. It's not because of me. It's because we have grown adults who essentially act like they're fucking five year olds whenever someone says something that isn't completely in line with their rainbow-and-unicorn-and-fairydust outlook on whatever subject.
If you don't like what I have to say, cosmicblizzard, ignore it. Don't expect any respect in the future for your perspectives when you can't act like an adult.
Jintor said:
It's not simply real world logic, in my view - although that is certainly the case - but it's also in-game logic. The game makes it clear that there is a very real system of justice in this country, there are laws, people carefully investigate crimes that occur and they are proven guilty or innocent in this manner. It doesn't make sense utilizing in-game logic that a detective of this much experience would
have that sort of mental break down over ANY of the events that occurred in the game
I respect the disagreement, but again this just goes back to the idea of good writing. If the type of Japanese fiction you're reading has this sort of bizarre illogical reactions about events like these, then it must not be very good books in my view. But of course, I'd need more direct experience with the literature to compare.
Jintor said:
The game had a different explanation and since I literally just beat it yesterday it's fresh in my mind.
The game offers that
Inspector Cabanella and Pigeon guy meticulously recreated the device as it was originally made by Kamilla, which PROVED that the device had been "manipulated" since there is no possible way it would have worked the way it did as it was built by Kamilla.
I'm not sure what part of the game made you think that
the device was reconstructed somehow
Attackthebase said:
Mother 3 is a great example of a game that properly follows its internal game logic in a way that makes sense to all its characters. cosmicblizzard's misses the point because he thinks it's about the idea that the concept is too bizarre or something, but it's not. It's because whether by real world logic or in-game logic, none of the character reactions seem to fit. It seems forced in a way to make certain gameplay scenarios happen.
Mother 3 is written by a talented writer, so it certainly shows in the quality of the dialogue and humour that it is a notch above other jRPG games. But more specifically, it doesn't rub your face in the meaning of things. It uses subtlety and nuance to get certain themes and points across. For example, certain moments in Mother 3 would require some absurd 10 minute cutscene in any other game is handled with a short 5 second clip that is more emotionally affecting than any comparable scene in a game.
Planescape Torment is a extremely well written game, hard to fault that - although the gameplay is equally flawed to Ghost Trick.
Grim Fandango is a really well written game. Full Throttle. And I prefer interpretive stories where story is not handed over to the player, but gleamed from observation and the feelings of things (like Shadow of the Colossus).
Crash Station
Member
Amir0x said:
I apologize if I came off as a jerk there. I have no problem with what you say, it's just how you say it. Hell, I've criticized game stories I like numerous times. I've actually been having a blast in the 999 spoiler thread discussing problems with the plot. Same with the Ghost Trick spoiler thread.
It's just that you normally end up criticizing the fans just for liking this kind of stuff. Talking about "lowering your standards" and all that. I know you don't think it's an insult, but it is. Posters end up not wanting to stay in the thread because the constructive criticism becomes nothing but malice.
Anyway, I won't bring it up again. I'm not telling you to change your posting style or anything, just pointing it out. Sorry if that offends you. I'll try to not let it bother me.
Boney said:
Although I didn't find it as ha-ha funny as a lot of people, I did often smile at how clearly in-love with the idea of pet loyalty the writer of the game was. It's clearly something close to his heart, and it comes through in all the scenes with Missile. It was quite endearing.
There was one other scene that made me laugh with missile actually, where Sissel was like
"Kamilla has been kidnapped!" and Missile responds "Oh my God, Kamilla has been KIDNAPPED!?" Then followed by a moment of silence and "What's kidnapping?" and then nobody even bothers to answer Missile. lol
cosmicblizzard said:
Look, i understand this is how people want to feel about posts I make, but point out where I said anything like this in this topic. I insulted nobodies perspective about this game at all.
Amir0x said:
I feel that Jowd was carrying the guilt of having 'shot' the man for about five years at this point and took the death of his wife as karma. This view requires a certain amount of leeway as to how people approach guilt, possibly a more melodramatic interpretation, but I feel that internally and even to some degree externally it makes a degree of sense. The family love extends then to protecting his child instead of himself, a kind of 'I just want her to be happy' selflessness that comes out quite often in Anime-esque fiction.
Amir0x said:
As far as I remember (and I may have to defer, since I beat this about a week ago now at this point) the contraption that Kamilla intended to make and the contraption that Kamilla did make were substantially different, primarily in the link to the pistol and the turning of the cupid. Kamilla's invention was supposed to only set off the party poppers and the way that it was originally designed there was no possible way for it to interact with the pistol. However, the contraption that was designed clearly had a link to the pistol. Since Kamilla didn't design this (or even recall building it, supposedly?) that 'proved' either that Kamilla had intended the link to the pistol (something clearly nobody believed, although they were scared that somebody - say, the courts would believe) or the existance of a manipulator.
That's my take on it, anyway.
/edit And I think I'll have to play Mother 3 now.
Cosmo Clock 21 said:
Don't really have a opinion on Ghost trick. (since i haven't finished it) But the phoenix wright games generally benefit from being illogical in that sense. Because in a way it throws away those kind of things like logic for the sake of entertainment. After all the series wouldn't be as intense or entertaining if the game wasn't filled with "OMG PLOT TWIST" every second during court cases.
You do!
Crumpet Trumpet
Banned
I treat Ghost Trick and the Ace Attorney games similar to the way I treated Harry Potter back in its heyday. Very compelling, entertaining stories, even if a bit illogical.
Crazypanda_85
Member
Crumpet Trumpet said:
Agreed. I honestly don't understand why some people are upset if a good book, movie or game is illogical or not realistic. IT'S CALLED FICTION PEOPLE! lol and it's meant for entertainment purposes (and maybe a side of thought provoking themes).
Back to Ghost Trick:
I just ordered this and the last two Professor Layton titles from the "Buy Two- Get One Free" sale on Amazon and can't wait to play it. The artstyle, for some strange reason, reminds me of the old Brad Pitt film, Cool World. I sold my DSi XL a while back and haven't played any DS games in a while and jonesing to get back into the thick of things as soon as the 3DS comes out. For now? I'm going to borrow a friend's DS so I finally get to one of my most anticipated games of 2010... that was bummed to early 2011
Attackthebase
Member
Boney said:
Amir0x actually knows how to write and act like an adult. It's great when he enters a thread because I get to see the flaws in games...instead of a constant amount of circle jerking, which is fine to a certain degree.
Jintor said:
I guess I can understand your perspective that it might fit in with a certain type of really melodramatic literature or anime fiction, but I suppose where we differ is in the relative merits it has as quality storytelling. I think these are very poor devices in the context of the game, and even if we agreed that it fits internal game logic (which I obviously disagree with) it doesn't seem to answer the point as to the merits of that type of storytelling.
To me it seems they prioritized a story that allowed gamers to get into the most amount of differing gameplay scenarios with the most extreme amount of plot twists, regardless of how well they connected or made sense internally or otherwise. Same goes for the writing, which was obviously less important to them. I don't think this allows it to be beyond reproach, however. I think there's an argument to be made about the merits of throwing caution to the wind in terms of storytelling, because then gameplay is the focus and that's more important for sure. I might just have a different view on the quality of Ghost Trick if I thought they went far enough with the gameplay.
As I said earlier, they introduced
ghost power swapping and puzzle gimmicks like the torpedo
Jintor said:
Hm, i can sorta see how there's still that potential there within what they said. Here's the basic breakdown of the scene:
You just saved Pigeon Man and Inspector Cabanella. At this point they begin to explain in detail how they started working together: Cabanella was curious about Temsik and his manipulator theory, and Pigeon man was studying the effects of Temsik or some such. Anyway, in this time they explained how they had meticulously recreated Kamilla's machine in the basement of that building at the junkyard. They recreated with her exact specifications and the machine went off exactly as she intended. They couldn't get the Cupid to fire the other way; it was impossible. They decided then that it had been 'manipulated' in process of function.
I guess the main point of contention here is just how that manipulation took place, then, which I suppose is less clear than the other points. Regardless, this is just one of many scenarios that have issues like these.
Jintor said:
It's certainly a great game in all ways.
Datschge said:
Just ignore the post. You don't have to read it or respond to it with a little self control.
It's such a shame we have so many people that just go into topics wanting to inhabit their little echo chambers. But all I can do is suggest you skip the posts of people who you don't like to hear.
I have zero people on ignore. I'm not afraid to hear contrary opinions and dissent about things I love.
Amir0x said:
Well, on the gameplay argument at least you have me. I really wanted more, more, more of that kind of stuff. I can agree to disagree on the merits of the story, though; your perspective makes total sense. I guess you just have to really like Shu Takumi's multiple plot-twist style of storytelling.
The way I understood it, Kamilla was manipulated directly by Yomiel while she was building the machine to add the extra parts that activates the pistol. She doesn't remember this because posession creates a mental haze (as in Lynne and the Justice Minister) and also the natural tendency of people to disbelieve that they had no control over themselves (The Justice Minister). Also it's never really brought up, since everybody involved immediately assumes there's no way Kamilla would deliberately build a murder machine.
spindashing
Banned
I see a few familiar faces here from the 999 thread, although the atmosphere here is quite different in comparison to said thread.
Nevertheless, I just started the game and I am enjoying the lighthearted jokes and the gameplay so far!
Nevertheless, I just started the game and I am enjoying the lighthearted jokes and the gameplay so far!
Sure. You are just particularly good at showing the lack of self control of many posters. Might call that your special ability. =)Amir0x said:
(I personally reserved my ignore list to people who willfully twisted my words to mean the opposite. You are definitely not one of them in my experience. Unfortunately one of them became mod so I can't edit it anymore...)
Anyway to get back on topic, regarding gameplay:
I guess this basically boils down to a matter of taste. Repetition is definitely an intended part of the gameplay, just like it was in the AA game before it. It's supposed to be fun trying to think of how the object actually behave, and you are supposed to be (positively) surprised if they didn't as expected. I basically checked all object in the first round, then tried to make sense of their correct order in the second round. I'd say making experimentation more rewarding was a focus of this game, and while in AA you just got a standard failure response when objecting at the wrong time or giving the wrong proof here you actually get to see why it didn't work. It may be lazy guessing to you, but people still stumble, even despite the gameplay being introduced this slowly. I agree that the full extend of the possibilities of the gameplay mechanics barely got used before the game ended already, but that's nothing new really, and more of it is up for a sequel (which I hope is coming) to offer to the then GT veterans.Amir0x said:
Amir0x said:
The reason why Cabanela wants to investigate the incident is because he doesn't believe his best friend would shoot his wife in front of their daughter. Jowd actually alters the crime scene by hiding the old gun and by doing "something else" implying that he actually shot the corpse with his own gun before the police arrived. With actual (albeit forged) evidence, Cabanela can't exactly expect to exonerate Jowd with his theory that a ghost manipulated the scene, and he also can't point to the design flaws because the whole thing was gone after the gun was shot. My take was that the final contraption was indeed different, but he found Kamila's design on paper while investigating the house and worked with that, making it impossible for the gun to be shot.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
i liked it when i made a trick
Well, I literally just finished this a couple of minutes ago. The gameplay mechanics were fun and I loved when they kept adding new situations on to previous ones. However, often the puzzles were easy and more in service to the story. There were some puzzles I had to think about but overall it was fun, not too challenging or frustrating.
The story kept me entertained and I was definitely thrown off by some of the plot twists (
). It was light-hearted with neat characters and a sometimes rather witty script. Near the end it got a bit jumbled and drawn out in its explanation of events but still, it was silly fun.
By far the top notch though is the animation of the characters. So smooth and brought to life. It was great to see all of the movements and it was what I was waiting for the entire game, to see what crazy character dance they were going to have next.
I don't have many complaints, just the game being really linear to a fault. I understand why this is though so its not that big of a deal. This game kind of made me realize on the great experiences a DS can offer since I don't do that much handheld gaming. Even less of it is done on a DS. I got Okamiden on preorder though, so it won't get too much dust this year,
So, all in all, Ghost Trick is a fun game. Missile is also in the running for best character of 2011 in my books so far. Oh, and the ending was pretty satisfactory, nice and long.
The story kept me entertained and I was definitely thrown off by some of the plot twists (
like Lynne shooting Sissel..er Yomiel
By far the top notch though is the animation of the characters. So smooth and brought to life. It was great to see all of the movements and it was what I was waiting for the entire game, to see what crazy character dance they were going to have next.
Cabanella and Missile twirling in at the end had me laughing.
I don't have many complaints, just the game being really linear to a fault. I understand why this is though so its not that big of a deal. This game kind of made me realize on the great experiences a DS can offer since I don't do that much handheld gaming. Even less of it is done on a DS. I got Okamiden on preorder though, so it won't get too much dust this year,
So, all in all, Ghost Trick is a fun game. Missile is also in the running for best character of 2011 in my books so far. Oh, and the ending was pretty satisfactory, nice and long.
Crash Station
Member
Amir0x said:
You're right, you didn't. It was more your harsh tone toward the game itself. When I see this,
I don't really have the motivation to discuss things with you. For that I apologize and we can discuss things like adults like you want.
Regarding
the contraption and Jowd's actions, I really don't believe it's THAT far fetched to think a father would go to great lengths to make sure his daughter is not seen as a killer even if everyone around them knew it was an accident. If anything, I might have a lesser opinion of Jowd if he didn't try to cover it up. I don't see this as video game logic, I see it as the unmatched love of a parent that may defy logic.
Replayed this last night after completing it a week ago. I really do love this game. I can see its faults, mainly that the story can feel twisted towards the end and its a shame that
. But I think if you enjoyed Takumi's previous work you'll enjoy this.
It's not as well written as Phoenix Wright, but it replaces this with a much better visual representation of the world you live in. I particularly liked
Overall, awesome game - soundtrack is again another great piece of work.
taking apart objects inside objects didn't get used more
It's not as well written as Phoenix Wright, but it replaces this with a much better visual representation of the world you live in. I particularly liked
that claustrophobic feeling you got when you visited new locations by phone, mostly as a quick one off affair before you visit there later in the game. You were very limited to where you go and had no understanding how each location fit into the puzzle, which added to the tension in the early part of the story.
Overall, awesome game - soundtrack is again another great piece of work.
Well, you know, there's different ways of expressing contrary opinions. You can say, "I felt this game tried to do X and failed" or "the plot was just too melodramatic for my tastes." Or you can say, "The gameplay really didn't do anything at all and the story was so fucking dumb" and imply that everybody who enjoyed it is, at best, tasteless, and more likely a blithering idiot.Amir0x said:
I personally don't feel that the second approach fosters constructive discussion of the merits and deficiencies of games.
EDIT: Regarding the actual game's "writing":
I thought the characters were all eminently likeable, mostly somewhat believable as people, and the motivations weren't all that unbelievable. Sure, there were plot holes, but internal consistency was generally pretty good. There was even excellent use of foreshadowing - you're given enough information at the beginning to figure out the general outline of the plot, and that's pretty cool.
But... well, when in the first five minutes of the game the desk lamp says, "Well, you're a dead dude traveling through time. It doesn't have to make sense!" it should be a tipoff that the game is not taking itself too seriously.
I think the notion of "good writing" is extremely elastic, and ultimately depends on what the author is trying to achieve AND what the reader is able to glean from it.
Is Thomas Pynchon "good writing"? More ridiculous things happen in Gravity's Rainbow than in any video game I've ever played, motivations are frequently ludicrous, and yet it's one of the greatest books I've ever read.
Is Shakespeare "good writing"? King Lear features some of the most memorable dialogue in the English language, but the plot is beyond ludicrous and the characters are, with a very few exceptions, all cardboard cutouts.
How about Katherine Anne Porter's Ship of Fools? Realistic characters with believable motivations, good technique, totally internally consistent, interesting tie-ins with the author's life and with the rise of the Nazis to power... but it was the most difficult literature I've ever read because it was so goddamn boring. Five hundred pages of a timorous and bitter middle-aged woman's diary. I've never understood how or why I finished reading it.
Is Ghost Trick an eternal work of art? Not on account of the plot or the writing, no. (If it is, it's for the animation, to be sure.) But the "quality of the writing" - distinct from the plot, and, yes, comparing for the medium and the genre - is far above average. You can lament that, but it's still a fact.
jgkspsx said:
That's actually not what it implies at all and can be considered so deeply reading between the lines as to suggest that you're itching to pick a fight. That's just my perspective, but pretty sure the only thing the statement implies is that the story is very dumb to me and that the gameplay doesn't do much for me. I am so sure one could say I'm even 100% positive that's what the statement implies
Datschege said:
Yeah I've been in a similar discussion over the merits of LIMBO actually recently. The debate essentially boils down to "how much do you appreciate trial-and-error gameplay?", and of course I fall squarely in the camp that believes if you can't logically figure out a problem without having to restart the game then it's bad game design.
The mileage one gets is also usually a sign of the patience one has. I don't have the patience to get annoyed at a game that takes skill out of it and makes it more of a guessing game. My time is shorter every day. So, to me this feels like bad game design. But in another time or place perhaps my tolerance for such things would be different.
But yeah, I might definitely keep an eye open on Ghost Trick 2. One, for the possibility that they'd enhance the gameplay in the ways discussed. It's a novel concept, a foundation for something pretty good. And two, because holy shit @ that gorgeous animation
jgkspsx said:
It's not about how silly or serious the game is, by the way. It's about how appropriate the plot feels within the structure of its internal game-logic. The only debate here is the level you believe this merits good storytelling, the "melodramatic anime fiction" structure which leaves a ton of plot holes and throws quality writing out in favor of big plot twists and crazy motivations which don't (at least to me) seem to jive with the flavor and characterization of these people or this world.
I don't have anything against games which are silly. Look at my love of the Mother series for proof.
jgkspsx said:
Except that's not a fact. Or even close. And we were just discussing the problems with tone in this thread; this post is now the only one that suggests one opinion is "factual" where another may not be. Seems certain individuals should look inward about the quality of discourse
Repetition is fine with me as long as I don't have to sit through cutscenes. My fear in Phoenix Wright was never, "Oh no, I'll lose!" It was "OMG I have to sit through all that testimony again???" Ghost Trick basically fixes all the problems I had with AA. I really like the trend towards 0-friction restarts - this, Trials HD, Limbo, bit.trip Runner, Angry Birds - as long as I can start over immediately, I won't get too annoyed.Amir0x said:
I think the Limbo comparison is particularly spot-on. This and that are both adventure games, and, just like in the old Sierra point-and-click adventure games, one of the main ways you learn what you're supposed to do is by dying/failing. The difference is that the penalties are only seconds long instead of hours, and instead of just randomly dying, you see exactly why the order you tried things in failed. I don't see how an adventure game would work any other way - if everything is immediately obvious and predictable, where is the challenge? (I'll admit that 999's puzzles mostly fall into that category.)
I thought the only truly frustrating bit in Ghost Trick were the football-shaped object bit - regardless of how long it took you to get the letter to move, the person would always get there before you. But even there, the previous dialogue and previous experience in that place should have given me enough information to avoid the misconception I had
(that the playground lawsuit-attractor would be too heavy to spin with the dude on it), since it had been pointed out several times before that a tiny amount of force was enough to get it moving fast.
Anyway, if you don't like repetition, you definitely don't want to play 999. To set the real ending, you have to play through the thing twice, and if you don't cheat and use a FAQ, you may have to play it seven times or more to see the real ending.
Crash Station
Member
jgkspsx said:
Really, you should be playing it 5 times or a few things on the true path won't make sense to you.
On topic: Seriously, the soundtrack of this game is amazing. I've been listening to the track before the credits roll (title of the track is a spoiler) non-stop. Reminds me a lot of Turnabout Sisters. What else has the composer done other than AA?
Hours Left
Member
Word. Playing 999 through only once or twice is doing yourself a great disservice. Gotta take every road to get the full effect IMO.cosmicblizzard said:
Hours Left
Member
I haven't seen many people saying the writing is poor, just the opposite. And the lack of "gameplay" is alright by me, since it is a visual novel. Going into 999 thinking you won't be reading for at least 85% of the game would be a mistake.Amir0x said:
The repetition is true though, but it's pretty painless with the fast forward option. It actually figures into the storyline too.
Gunloc said:
Almost everyone I've talked to in the pro-999 camp has told me so far the writing is pretty iffy (particularly the first third of the game which is distractingly awful, but apparently it improves later...fuck if I know), but that the "scenario" is good. I'm glad you disagree though, but I won't bother getting into it in this topic since this is a Ghost Trick thread. I'm just amused at how terrible everybody makes the game sound.