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GirlGAF |OT 2| Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer's Eve?
- Thread starter Devolution
- Start date
Femmeworth
Banned
Clearly she did nothing to defend her self in order to exaggerate the problem. Can't blame men for being men. How are they supposed to know better if she doesn't tell them?
Brian Griffin
Member
Wow. As a guy I can usually understand why other men do certain things or act certain ways but for shit like this I got nothing. It's like they are a different species.
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
I'm seriously considering dropping the OT. I'm tired of all the double standards, everyone knowing better than yourself how you act and think better than yourself and people not only defending but justifying their most sexist beliefs.
And now I'm on a 5 hours bus trip. But on the good part I have a mini-tv with X-Men First Class, Thor and Captain America, I'm all alone on the back side of it and I'm starting the third Song of Ice and Fire book. And of course, three days at the beach that are gonna be great.
And now I'm on a 5 hours bus trip. But on the good part I have a mini-tv with X-Men First Class, Thor and Captain America, I'm all alone on the back side of it and I'm starting the third Song of Ice and Fire book. And of course, three days at the beach that are gonna be great.
shanshan310
Member
Its really starting to feel like more effort than its worth =/ I don't think going in actually changes anything, since the same people are back in similar threads the next week.
Oooh I'm jealous! Stuck here in the cold under 10 tonnes of text books. Where are you headed??
Oooh I'm jealous! Stuck here in the cold under 10 tonnes of text books. Where are you headed??
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
A Spanish beach, tho it's mostly gonna be sunbathing, relaxing and stuff. Why I'll find some time to check this a bit.
In two weeks tho I'll go to another one for a week and that one is going to be some serious debauchery.
Yeah, but we are also the only ones (I do add cool posters like Mumei and ElDoradoBros here) who seem to want it to change. It's not the kind of thing that goes away when you're not looking.
Yeah, I agree. Its why I don't really argue as much as I once used to 2 or 3 years ago, its never gonna go away you can't really change their mind. What I can do is to put people like that on ignore so I never have to deal with them again. I know, I know, I should "mentally ignore" them but there's just too many douchebags like that on GAF can't remember all their user names. :\
This reminds me of a Chris Rock joke.
Professor Beef
Banned
Zoe
Member
She just took maternity time. She's got a new song out now.
shanshan310
Member
Oh yeah she had a baby huh.
I am not a pink fan. Im not big on the music, her look or the crazy hype that always surrounds her.
I am not a pink fan. Im not big on the music, her look or the crazy hype that always surrounds her.
hey Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrls,
I was never really that active in the previous thread so hoping to change that and get to know you all, and for my first post :-
I know a girl who is intelligent in her late 20's and well educated, has a great job within cancer research that is in her field of study and is in a long term relationship, over 6 years, but not married. One night we got talking about the future, where we'll be and have we accomplished what we wanted when we were kids (I wanted to be Red from fraggle rock, when I grew up, still trying!) and so own, boring stuff really.
To my surprise she said that she can't wait to get married so she can be a stay at home or trophy wife. My first response was to laugh and joke about how she'll just drink wine and eat chocolate or bonbons all day, until I saw she was serious.
I questioned her on various things, what would she do, would she not be bored not having people to interact with for a good chuck of the day, or not having tasks to do outside of the home? What about what she has accomplished and could accomplish? Her general response was that she should not need or want to work if she had a husband, she would make friends in the gym or health spa, and that she doesn't believe in equality when it came to partners working, she believes that a woman should step back and let the man provide, and she does not like feminists (i did not question what her idea of a feminist was, where this conversation was going, i did not want to start a war) as they are rocking the boat for women like her who want to be "kept" and their only worry is to look good..... O_O
Ok so i ended the conversation, jokingly saying that if her boyfriend found out about all the responsibility she assumed he should take, that he would never ask her to marry him.
Then about a month ago I was chatting to this gorgeous girl, extremely intelligent, has a Masters in forensic science, in her very early 20's and she was telling me that she likes the idea of being a 'Trophy wife', sees it as a job, and that trophy wives should be paid as it is their job to be beautiful, sexy and please or be there for their husband.
I was taken aback, I agreed with her to point that, yes it costs a lot of money with hair, skin care, make up, gym and clothing and if that is the sole reason why a man marries a "trophy" woman, and if they both acknowledge this and come to an agreement, than yes, he needs to pay costs to help keep her looking fantastic. But a Trophy wife is not a career choice. Yet she disagreed, saying it should be seen as so, and to tell me many of her friends agree with her and would also like to be provided for and not have to work or worry about accomplishing something.
So beautiful Gaf, I need to know, when my mother, alongside many others, kicked, pulled and spat fighting for her right to equal work and pay, fighting against women being harassed or objectified just for being women, and when she did all she could do, and passed the reigns to me, telling me that its now my generations turn to continue the fight for our future and our daughters, is this it? Is this what was to be accomplished all along, a seemingly growing % of women accepting being 2nd citizens or wanting to be completely dependent on their partner/significant other?
Is there any here who fell the same as my 2 examples? Let me know your thoughts GirlGaf.
I was never really that active in the previous thread so hoping to change that and get to know you all, and for my first post :-
I know a girl who is intelligent in her late 20's and well educated, has a great job within cancer research that is in her field of study and is in a long term relationship, over 6 years, but not married. One night we got talking about the future, where we'll be and have we accomplished what we wanted when we were kids (I wanted to be Red from fraggle rock, when I grew up, still trying!) and so own, boring stuff really.
To my surprise she said that she can't wait to get married so she can be a stay at home or trophy wife. My first response was to laugh and joke about how she'll just drink wine and eat chocolate or bonbons all day, until I saw she was serious.
I questioned her on various things, what would she do, would she not be bored not having people to interact with for a good chuck of the day, or not having tasks to do outside of the home? What about what she has accomplished and could accomplish? Her general response was that she should not need or want to work if she had a husband, she would make friends in the gym or health spa, and that she doesn't believe in equality when it came to partners working, she believes that a woman should step back and let the man provide, and she does not like feminists (i did not question what her idea of a feminist was, where this conversation was going, i did not want to start a war) as they are rocking the boat for women like her who want to be "kept" and their only worry is to look good..... O_O
Ok so i ended the conversation, jokingly saying that if her boyfriend found out about all the responsibility she assumed he should take, that he would never ask her to marry him.
Then about a month ago I was chatting to this gorgeous girl, extremely intelligent, has a Masters in forensic science, in her very early 20's and she was telling me that she likes the idea of being a 'Trophy wife', sees it as a job, and that trophy wives should be paid as it is their job to be beautiful, sexy and please or be there for their husband.
I was taken aback, I agreed with her to point that, yes it costs a lot of money with hair, skin care, make up, gym and clothing and if that is the sole reason why a man marries a "trophy" woman, and if they both acknowledge this and come to an agreement, than yes, he needs to pay costs to help keep her looking fantastic. But a Trophy wife is not a career choice. Yet she disagreed, saying it should be seen as so, and to tell me many of her friends agree with her and would also like to be provided for and not have to work or worry about accomplishing something.
So beautiful Gaf, I need to know, when my mother, alongside many others, kicked, pulled and spat fighting for her right to equal work and pay, fighting against women being harassed or objectified just for being women, and when she did all she could do, and passed the reigns to me, telling me that its now my generations turn to continue the fight for our future and our daughters, is this it? Is this what was to be accomplished all along, a seemingly growing % of women accepting being 2nd citizens or wanting to be completely dependent on their partner/significant other?
Is there any here who fell the same as my 2 examples? Let me know your thoughts GirlGaf.
Brian Griffin
Member
Not a girl but I find this topic really interesting so I hope no one minds if I jump in first.
Although it does kind of sound bad for her to seek out that kind of life while women are STILL trying to reach true equality, I can't judge her for it. It's her life and if she chooses to take it down that path that's her right.
However, I will judge her on her opinion against equality and feminism. If she wants to contribute nothing to society and try to stay beautiful and sexy for as long as possible, fine, but don't look down on others who want more for themselves.
Has she put any thought into how this will play out in the future? The sad truth is that most women's physical attractiveness falls off hard later in life and if she has built a relationship solely around how she looked when she was young then she will probably end up as a trophy with no one trying to win her anymore.
Although it does kind of sound bad for her to seek out that kind of life while women are STILL trying to reach true equality, I can't judge her for it. It's her life and if she chooses to take it down that path that's her right.
However, I will judge her on her opinion against equality and feminism. If she wants to contribute nothing to society and try to stay beautiful and sexy for as long as possible, fine, but don't look down on others who want more for themselves.
Has she put any thought into how this will play out in the future? The sad truth is that most women's physical attractiveness falls off hard later in life and if she has built a relationship solely around how she looked when she was young then she will probably end up as a trophy with no one trying to win her anymore.
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
Not a growing percentage, I disagree with that. There are, however, women who will obviously think like that, because society keeps pushing how our bodies are our defining and most important trait.
Zoe
Member
I simply can't respect someone who aspires to be a stay at home wife. Being a stay at home mother is a full time job, but not wife.
It's all the worse when it's someone who has thrown (hundreds of) thousands of dollars at post-graduate degrees and then never made a dent in the real world.
It's all the worse when it's someone who has thrown (hundreds of) thousands of dollars at post-graduate degrees and then never made a dent in the real world.
Exactly, for someone (or their parents) to pay and invest into an education, just to say that they have it yet choose not to use it or apply it to something in their life; I just can't compute.
I got the impression, especially from the younger of the 2, that working hard or thriving for something seemed almost daunting or far to much pressure, that if a woman and a man have the same job, the woman will always have to give more effort to prove herself at that than a man would.
probably not, and I'm not judging her either, it was just more of a surprise that someone close to my age, from a similar background would choose and be happy with depending on another to provide for her and probably give her a weekly allowance.
I got the impression, especially from the younger of the 2, that working hard or thriving for something seemed almost daunting or far to much pressure, that if a woman and a man have the same job, the woman will always have to give more effort to prove herself at that than a man would.
probably not, and I'm not judging her either, it was just more of a surprise that someone close to my age, from a similar background would choose and be happy with depending on another to provide for her and probably give her a weekly allowance.
I don't agree with this. Certainly many women are pressured in to preferring or idolizing this lifestyle, but I feel confident some women would choose it even in a perfectly egalitarian world.
While the "trophy wife" lifestyle has obvious downsides -- a life devoid of any significant accomplishment or intellectual pursuit -- it also has a very significant upside; a near complete lack of serious responsibility.
This is not an inconsequential gain. For example, women tend to live significant longer than men; in 1900, the age gap was very large, with women living over 7 years longer than men. But as women have made strides towards equality in America, the life expectancy gap has steadily closed, and most sociologists associate this gradually leveling expectancy with increasing responsibility and stress placed on women.
Without taking anything else in to account, I don't think it's absurd to suggest that there are people who are willing to live banal, superficial lives if it means a stress free, longer life in the process. Women have an easy way to accomplish this if they're willing to doll themselves up for men. I do not feel this tendency would go away completely if society were suddenly and completely equalized.
It isn't what I would personally want (I very much want responsibility and accomplishment), but I certainly see why some people might want it, even if in world without sexism.
BladeWorker
Member
You know, Opiate, I think you're right. Much though I hate the thought of women choosing lives without consequence as part of a self-preservational instinct sort of thing.
That being said, if stress has as substantial effect on life expectancy as your post implies, I'll be dead in 15 years.
...What to do with that time? I'd like to climb a mountain...
That being said, if stress has as substantial effect on life expectancy as your post implies, I'll be dead in 15 years.
...What to do with that time? I'd like to climb a mountain...
Devolution
Member
I don't know, everyone has their reasons for their lifestyle choices that are frankly none of our business. Intellectual pursuits don't have to move over into careers if people prefer a different lifestyle. The daily grind of 9-5 plus overtime, then get home and do even more work can't be pretty daunting to some people. And when you consider that many women are professionals and do a majority of the cooking, cleaning, and kid responsibilities, if you can afford to ditch the pay check, why not?
Of course this doesn't really help a lot of professions become more diverse in terms of gender but I'd rather have women making their own choices for themselves than claiming that housewives don't have real jobs or they don't deserve respect. It's their life and their choice. Some still manage to still keep the home egalitarian and help their daughters pursue education and encourage independence.
This is actually where I diverge from certain feminists and feminist rhetoric that seems to imply an obligation to always make choices that further the cause and not choose for yourself. I think this hardline application of feminist ideals for the group hinders the movement. There are plenty of housewives who are feminist minded if they weren't assumed to be under the patriarchal bootheel of their husbands, and it's that kind of attitude that forces women on one side of the fence or the other. Of course I'd like to see a more egalitarian society and work force but I'm not about to wave my finger at women who make choices for themselves. And I know about the studies where men from traditional style families are more likely to devalue other women at work but I can't in good conscience thumb my nose at women who make choices for themselves and don't feel the need to restrict the choices of others.
Professor Beef
Banned
If ever there was a time to tag-quote...
Hahahahaha on the topic of women and respect and such...
Totally just randomly applied for Hooters Girl! Hahaha. They're opening one in the area and hiring a whole staff, so lots of positions!
I doubt they'll reply, as I don't really fit the look, but whatever. See what happens.
Not gonna lie, though... $15 an hour plus tips? I can dig it.
Totally just randomly applied for Hooters Girl! Hahaha. They're opening one in the area and hiring a whole staff, so lots of positions!
I doubt they'll reply, as I don't really fit the look, but whatever. See what happens.
Not gonna lie, though... $15 an hour plus tips? I can dig it.
clearacell
Member
You mean you don't have 3 pounds of makeup on? Thank God. Good luck though, it is a pretty sweet gig if you can land it. As long as you're in on the joke, there is nothing to ever be embarrassed about in that job.
Haha, the makeup and probably not skinny enough. But whatever. It's for shits and giggles and if they reply, then I'll actually take it seriously, cause yeah... GOOD MONEY.
Zoe
Member
Well I made the distinction between stay at home wife and stay at home mother for a reason.
I support people's ability to make their own decisions. That doesn't mean I'm going to respect said decision.
Devolution
Member
Femmeworth
Banned
I'm going to have to agree with Zoe. I can't respect women that want to be trophy wives. Though it's really society and the system that are at fault.
If they are going to be reproducing, I certainly care.
Devolution
Member
So you two don't respect house-husbands either?
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
We should always discourage anybody from being a stay at home parent. Sacrificing a decade or more of education/career development isn't fair and will leave that parent in a much worse position if it turns out the marriage doesn't work out.
I can still respect a woman who's only responsibilities are taking care of kids and cooking/cleaning but that type of long term plan has a high failure rate.
I can still respect a woman who's only responsibilities are taking care of kids and cooking/cleaning but that type of long term plan has a high failure rate.
Devolution
Member
Meh. As someone who grew up with two working parents and was an only child, that shit's lonely.
Femmeworth
Banned
You are assuming that there has to be such a power imbalance. Maybe calling it an imbalance isn't quite right.
It doesn't have to be one parent stays home with the child or nothing.
Prax
Member
Some people are just lazy or want to live in the lap of luxury and not do a thing.
I guess good for them if they manage to achieve that?
It takes all sorts to make this world run, after all.
But I'm not going to shed any tears if they get "haters" for those kind of "ambitions", and I'd be less likely to sympathize with their complaints of being objectified or taken for granted like a useless object if their career choice is to be literally objectified as a "trophy". :l
I guess good for them if they manage to achieve that?
It takes all sorts to make this world run, after all.
But I'm not going to shed any tears if they get "haters" for those kind of "ambitions", and I'd be less likely to sympathize with their complaints of being objectified or taken for granted like a useless object if their career choice is to be literally objectified as a "trophy". :l
Great feedback from all. Its good to know where some stand on this. I just want to clarify to make sure no one misunderstood me, that I wasn't questioning a woman's right to make that lifestyle choice, of course she does, as do men,
but the reason why someone would make that lifestyle choice after so many fought so we would actually have choice to make, and if it is a growing trend.
also, stay at home mothers/fathers are not the same as stay at home wives/husbands. Zoe already made that clear, and it was the reason why I did not mention it in my first post.
Next time I want to start a discussion it'll be more lighthearted
but the reason why someone would make that lifestyle choice after so many fought so we would actually have choice to make, and if it is a growing trend.
also, stay at home mothers/fathers are not the same as stay at home wives/husbands. Zoe already made that clear, and it was the reason why I did not mention it in my first post.
Next time I want to start a discussion it'll be more lighthearted
Zoe
Member
It doesn't even have to be a woman--anyone who chooses to be lazy and make no contribution with their lives. These people take up spots in competitive programs and money away from their siblings. It has affected me, so yeah, I'm gonna care.
Maybe I am misunderstanding this conversation. If I am then I am sorry - please disregard me.
There are different ways to contribute than just having a career.
I want to be a "house wife". I do not need to devote life to the pursuit of money and "success". I am happy playing a supportive role in a family. I will contribute by making the life of the person I love as easy as I can and providing happiness. I think this is a very admirable goal.
It's not about power or standing or balance or women's rights or being lazy or whatever. I think of it in terms of an MMORPG. Not everyone has to be that person standing in front looking cool. The healer or support classes are just as important and contribute just as much - if not more.
If I have free time outside of support duties, I can volunteer for things or even just relax. What kind of world do we live in where it's considered lazy to just relax and enjoy life?
"You must work!"
Go away.
It's not a coincidence that my people have the longest life expectancy in the world but is also one of the most relaxed places. Even if my home has the highest unemployment rate in the country and the lowest wages in the country, we are the happiest and most "successful". Career focused society sucks.
My work is support and the product is happiness. I find this infinitely more admirable than "I earn money."
The focus on career and the idea that it is the only way to contribute is... silly.
There are different ways to contribute than just having a career.
I want to be a "house wife". I do not need to devote life to the pursuit of money and "success". I am happy playing a supportive role in a family. I will contribute by making the life of the person I love as easy as I can and providing happiness. I think this is a very admirable goal.
It's not about power or standing or balance or women's rights or being lazy or whatever. I think of it in terms of an MMORPG. Not everyone has to be that person standing in front looking cool. The healer or support classes are just as important and contribute just as much - if not more.
If I have free time outside of support duties, I can volunteer for things or even just relax. What kind of world do we live in where it's considered lazy to just relax and enjoy life?
"You must work!"
Go away.
It's not a coincidence that my people have the longest life expectancy in the world but is also one of the most relaxed places. Even if my home has the highest unemployment rate in the country and the lowest wages in the country, we are the happiest and most "successful". Career focused society sucks.
My work is support and the product is happiness. I find this infinitely more admirable than "I earn money."
The focus on career and the idea that it is the only way to contribute is... silly.
shanshan310
Member
Though people are free to do what they like, I really don't like the idea of scrounging of someone you love, making them work long hours for you. It should be an even split - the work, the cleaning, the parenting, all of it. I can understand people taking a couple of years off to look after young children, but once they hit preschool / primary school age there's really no reason to be at home all the time. Its really a tough one though. My mum works four days a week, and comes home and does housework until bed. If your husband won't pitch in, or isn't around to do so because of work or whatever, I imagine being a working couple would suck ass. At the same time though, sitting at home every day cleaning while your partner works feels like it would be a waste of life, and a lot of housewives I've spoken to really regret not doing anything with their lives.
When I was a child my mom didn't work, she stayed home all day taking care of me and my sister. She says that she preferred doing this because when my dad would come home after work everything was already organized and clean and etc, while my mom said that it was good she didn't work since she would probably be so tired after working that doing all the house stuff would be really stressful and tough especially with young children.
When I was 8 and my sister was 14 my mom had to start working a cleaning lady job and it was really physically demanding since she would clean really big homes with multiple floors lugging vacuum cleaners everywhere and etc. She would get home and still somehow do the house work along with my dad but they were always dead tired and now my mom basically always has pain in her arms from when she had to mop and sweep floors all day long for a lot of hours.
Now I'm 20 and my sister is married and in the US while my family is in Brazil. My dad works, I'm working as well, and my mom semi-works with her sister selling clothes. She's usually gone one week of the month to do her job and the rest she stays at home making sure the house is organized, that there is food to eat and ready when me and my dad get home and she says it's the best thing to do. My mom is a neat freak, so she says that doing all this stuff just makes for having a stress-free life.
I could see why women wouldn't like the idea if it was forced on them, but if that's their choice then it's up to them and in a way I could see how it could be a job. Maintaining a house and raising kids is not an easy thing to do especially if you have to go to work and then do all of this when you get home. Of course the SO shouldn't be lazy and skip on contributing from time to time, and it doesn't matter if it's the man or the woman who is the stay at home parent. But honestly if a couple agrees on this particular life style then what else is there to say about it?
shanshan310
Member
Well, like I said people are free to live the way they choose to. I personally don't think its fair that men are assumed to be the providers, and women saddled with all the housework, but if people are happy in those roles and it's not hurting anyone I don't really care what they do.
Brian Griffin
Member
Haha, when I got to "supportive role" I immediately thought of support classes in League of Legends. My mom stopped working after I was born and did exactly what you describe and my childhood was pretty amazing. After she got us to school she would take care of all the house maintenance, bills, shopping errands, etc. so everything was all done by the time we got out of school and our dad got off work. With no chores left, her and my dad had lots of time together and we could also do lots of things as a family. We obviously could have had better stuff with two incomes but as you say, that wouldn't have made us more "successful".
The one caveat I will mention though is that they have always been extremely committed to each other and that was a major factor in her choice to stay home. Like Al-ibn Kermit said above, being a house-spouse can put you at a big disadvantage if a divorce happens so one of you staying at home needs to be a decision you make together.
My wife also wants to stop working after our daughter is born. Partly because she absolutely hates her job, but also because she always wants to be there with our girl and not deal with daycare.
I don't think it "should" be evenly split, although that is certainly one way to do things. It doesn't have to be sexist: do you think it's better for one person in the family to handle bills, and the other person to handle taking out the trash, or do you think it's better that each do exactly half of both of those duties?
As an economist, I can tell you that it is typically better to specialize; one person in the unit specializes in doing one set of activities, while the other person specializes in a separate set of activities, and more gets done in total than would get done if you insisted on splitting each activity right down the middle in some messy, complicated way. Having me do the laundry and you do the trash is more efficient than having both of us do half the laundry and half the trash.
However, this does not mean that women should always specialize in activities like dish washing and cooking while men should specialize in finance and professional advancement -- that is most definitely sexist. Telling people precisely what to specialize in because "that's what girls do" or "that's what guys do" is bad, but the concept of specialization within a household is not a bad one inherently.
Yes, agreed.
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
In a totally selfish way, that does make some sense. But I think everybody is expected to try to make their partners happy.
I don't get why you have such a problem with work, it sounds like you don't consider taking care of kids or maintaining the household to be work. If somebody's job is to order a maid/nanny and keep pretty for their husbands, then they won't have a very gratifying existence.
It's even more economical if you just put them in daycare. Probably better for their social skills too.
Femmeworth
Banned
Maybe? I don't think we are all on the same page in this discussion. :x
KernelPanic
Member
My wife is a stay at home mom and it's definitely hard work, she gets pissed off at anyone that looks down on her and what she does day in day out. She really regrets giving up her career dreams for it at times, as a guy I feel really bad she has to make such a choice.
However it's what we agreed upon when we got married (it was her idea). She will probably never trust a daycare or babysitter(she was abused at one as a child). Not to mention her parents worked a lot and were home late. She'd trade all the X-mas presents she ever got for parents who were actually around, and she doesn't our kids to go through that.
She's even thinking of home schooling, with all the bullying that happens at schools it's hard to trust the school system.
It's a huge sacrifice by the women who choose to make it and they should be admired for all that they do.
However it's what we agreed upon when we got married (it was her idea). She will probably never trust a daycare or babysitter(she was abused at one as a child). Not to mention her parents worked a lot and were home late. She'd trade all the X-mas presents she ever got for parents who were actually around, and she doesn't our kids to go through that.
She's even thinking of home schooling, with all the bullying that happens at schools it's hard to trust the school system.
It's a huge sacrifice by the women who choose to make it and they should be admired for all that they do.
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