you're all just wrong in my eyes
Girls - Season 2 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter anaron
- Start date
- Status
you're all just wrong in my eyes
These are characters in a show that were having a conversation. These are not characters that just met. These are not characters who don't exist in bubble where Sandy has just "come out" as a Republican. It's not very hard at all (though apparently for you, it seems to be) to see how this is a continuing conversation between Hannah and Sandy. And she blows up. Not over something that he's done, but commentary on her work, which is the most narcissistic thing possible for her to be upset about.
But she brings up positions that he holds, positions that he's brought up before. If not, then there was no outrage by him to qualify what she was saying. Only a "it's more complicated" after she brings up gun control. Instead of defending himself, he sidesteps the conversation. And nothing in this episode makes it seem as if this is the first conversation that they've had on the matter. That's why that particular scene is the most fascinating aspect of the episode. Hannah is wrong on a number of issues. But so is Sandy. That's not to say every Republican believes in these positions, and I'm sure Hannah doesn't wish to engage in a way that's above a surface level conversation, but it doesn't make the positions that Sandy holds any less true.
Sandy refused to acknowledge anything that Hannah said as incorrect. Hannah might have made assumptions. But that doesn't mean she's wrong on this particular facet. That's what makes Hannah so interesting -- she's simultaneously is both correct and incorrect about a myriad of facets.
And no, I don't "hate" Sandy. I think he's a necessary character for the show that I'm sad is leaving.
EDIT: Fuck, let's look at the transcript:
This is not the first time they've had this conversation. Sandy even says he's "steadfast" in his believes. Hannah is not asking him "so, do you believe in gay marriage?", she's pointing out that he doesn't. There's no nuance or way to project what Hannah is saying here. Just because she's wrong about many things (and Sandy is right about many things) doesn't mean she's wrong in this particular instance. And that doesn't mean Elijah is wrong in that particular instance either.
I think the Adam thing should take a while. Neither Adam or Hannah are healthy enough for each other.
Nothing in the episode assumes that, and everything they talk about has a tinge towards the past in it. Let's continue:
What about that makes it seem like this is the first time they've had this conversation? It makes the assumption that they've talked about this before! (Granted, this is NOT an open and honest conversation, but it doesn't make the dialog any less relevant for the fact that they've had this conversation before).
If Sandy does come back, I really hope they handle him being a Republican better than they have now. Because I agree, I think it'd be weird for a Brooklyn hipster not to believe in gay marriage or abortion rights or other social positions. But that's not how he's painted: he's painted as a Brooklyn hipster who holds conventional right-wing views, which is a mistake.
GremlinFool
Member
The transcript only justifies what we're saying. There wasn't even the most remote inkling that he was even tacitly agreeing with Hannah's mischaracterizations of him and his party.
This kid is a LAW SCHOOL STUDENT (and, judging by his relative eloquence, probably an NYU or Columbia Law School Student). Wouldn't you think that, given the prudence of his future profession and evident intelligence, he would avoid getting down into the mud with Hannah? She was in HYSTERICS over her essay, obviously he wouldn't start a fucking political discussion with her in her precarious state of mind. Similarly, why would he delve into his political views with Elijah when he was being HARANGUED UNPROVOKED by him in the morning?
Seriously, this is the most OBVIOUS SUBTEXT EVER. Sandy is clearly posited as a foil to Hannah, Elijah, and all of the man-children and woman-children on this show: his life is put together, he obviously understands the complexity of his views (him being steadfast in his beliefs and not growing up in a Republican household demonstrates definitively that he's formulated his political values after heavy, deliberate consideration), and HE REFUSES to engage in petty arguments with the children surrounding him.
This is literally THE POINT OF THE SHOW. Just because you commiserate with that boorish level of political discourse does not mean that it is normative behavior. Dunham is very clear in what she was showing in this episode, and the point literally flew over your head.
This kid is a LAW SCHOOL STUDENT (and, judging by his relative eloquence, probably an NYU or Columbia Law School Student). Wouldn't you think that, given the prudence of his future profession and evident intelligence, he would avoid getting down into the mud with Hannah? She was in HYSTERICS over her essay, obviously he wouldn't start a fucking political discussion with her in her precarious state of mind. Similarly, why would he delve into his political views with Elijah when he was being HARANGUED UNPROVOKED by him in the morning?
Seriously, this is the most OBVIOUS SUBTEXT EVER. Sandy is clearly posited as a foil to Hannah, Elijah, and all of the man-children and woman-children on this show: his life is put together, he obviously understands the complexity of his views (him being steadfast in his beliefs and not growing up in a Republican household demonstrates definitively that he's formulated his political values after heavy, deliberate consideration), and HE REFUSES to engage in petty arguments with the children surrounding him.
This is literally THE POINT OF THE SHOW. Just because you commiserate with that boorish level of political discourse does not mean that it is normative behavior. Dunham is very clear in what she was showing in this episode, and the point literally flew over your head.
Hannah couldn't deal with Sandy not liking her essay so she starts throwing out the few differences that she knows/cares about between the two parties. Note she told Marnie and Elijah when she got back to the apartment how she was fighting for both of them when that wasn't the case. Seemed pretty obvious Hannah was most definitely to be viewed in the wrong after that conversation. The fact that Sandy refuses to respond to her baiting makes it all the more obvious. Definitely in line with how the rest of the show has gone. These are people living in their own little world.
GremlinFool
Member
This is also why people hate liberals. Fuck you approving of people accosting innocent Republicans.
I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE POINT OF SANDY IS ON THE SHOW. But he is also a CHARACTER, not just a foil. I am not defending Hannah. I am, however, examining how this conversation broke down, which is that it's (are we still capitalizing everything? Okay) that THIS IS A CONVERSATION THAT THEY HAD BEFORE. THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THEY HAD ENGAGED ON THIS LEVEL AND SANDY DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GAY MARRIAGE. THAT IS VERY CLEAR FROM THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE. That does not make his presence on the show any less important. What it does mean is that Elijah has some agency towards being antagonistic towards him. And just because Sandy doesn't want to engage with Hannah (a wise, wise choice, because she's a child) doesn't mean he doesn't hold those positions. The show was pretty clear that these are positions that Sandy holds. They are complicated. This is not the time or place for that conversation. BUT, they are still positions he believes.
The point of this show is that Hannah is not a person yet, that she's growing. But just because she's still immature does not preclude her from making insight that's meaningful. She needs to be find a way to channel that insight into some outlet that can be engaged with on a mature level, as well as have a more full and complete view on the nuances of the world. That doesn't mean she's never correct, or this is a character that we should believe lacks any forms of empathy or understanding. She does. She's not developed, but Hannah is not someone to be pitied.
(And really, you mean to tell me that even though Hannah has been dating this boy and knows he's a Republican that they've NEVER, EVER had a conversation about his political beliefs before? Or his stances on gay marriage? And that this is the first time Hannah has ever brought this up? Come the fuck on.)
Really? It's a toxic position. It's absolutely okay for Elijah to dislike Sandy for it, which was my original point. I'll admit, sure, it wasn't in the best place. But there is an absolute reason for Elijah to dislike Sandy if Sandy CANNOT RESPECT ANY OF ELIJAH'S RELATIONSHIPS OR HIMSELF AS A PERSON. That's a huge fucking deal. THERE IS NOTHING INNOCENT ABOUT THAT POLITICAL POSITION WHEN HE HAS TO ENGAGE WITH A GAY PERSON DAILY.
It's not a black and white issue. It's not "Hannah was wrong here, Sandy was right." It's more complicated. Hannah was wrong, but Hannah is also right. On the issue of gay marriage, Hannah is right. The ways in which she handled herself were wrong, but she was also correct in pointing out that she has a gay roommate and it's a bit bullshit. Was this the time or place? No! It was a narcissistic engagement. That doesn't mean what she said lacked merit.
you have to be one of the worst critical thinkers when it comes to visual media, ivysaur
holy shit
you are so right there with hannah that you can't even tell that it's a complete mockery of the how you act. your only defense is to prove how wrong the sandy character was, even though the character is merely existing and getting attacked by hannah and elijah.
IF IT WAS SO IMPORTANT FOR US TO SEE THOSE CONVERSATIONS WHERE WE SAW THEM DISCUSSING POLITICS, WE WOULD HAVE SEEN IT. THAT WASN'T THE POINT. we're not supposed to be having our political beliefs swayed, and i'm pretty sure that's how you're taking it. the whole thing was admonishing hannah for trying to take cheap pot shots at sandy because he DIDN'T LIKE HER ESSAY. she responds by CALLING HIM A BIGOT.
this whole context of the scene is that HANNAH WANTS TO BE RIGHT SO SHE TAKES CHEAP SHOTS AT SANDY TO JUSTIFY HER CHILDISH ANGER OVER HER WRITING BEING CRITIQUED.
my god. you're still not going to get it. you're going to keep saying that sandy was a character when he was nothing of the sort. he was a canvas for hannah's projections. so was adam in the beginning of the last season and he only became a character when he revealed himself outside of hannah's projections. that's what made adam so amazing because of how unreliable hannah is as a narrator.
but post more because it's amazing
holy shit
you are so right there with hannah that you can't even tell that it's a complete mockery of the how you act. your only defense is to prove how wrong the sandy character was, even though the character is merely existing and getting attacked by hannah and elijah.
IF IT WAS SO IMPORTANT FOR US TO SEE THOSE CONVERSATIONS WHERE WE SAW THEM DISCUSSING POLITICS, WE WOULD HAVE SEEN IT. THAT WASN'T THE POINT. we're not supposed to be having our political beliefs swayed, and i'm pretty sure that's how you're taking it. the whole thing was admonishing hannah for trying to take cheap pot shots at sandy because he DIDN'T LIKE HER ESSAY. she responds by CALLING HIM A BIGOT.
this whole context of the scene is that HANNAH WANTS TO BE RIGHT SO SHE TAKES CHEAP SHOTS AT SANDY TO JUSTIFY HER CHILDISH ANGER OVER HER WRITING BEING CRITIQUED.
my god. you're still not going to get it. you're going to keep saying that sandy was a character when he was nothing of the sort. he was a canvas for hannah's projections. so was adam in the beginning of the last season and he only became a character when he revealed himself outside of hannah's projections. that's what made adam so amazing because of how unreliable hannah is as a narrator.
but post more because it's amazing
brianjones
Member
hot button topix
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Hannah's annoying.
I don't think you really understand what I'm saying, but that's okay. I'm not defending the ways in which Hannah acts. I'm not defending Hannah as a person. I'm not defending Hannah as an adult.
I don't know where you got that I think this is a political discussion. It is not. What it is was a discussion where Hannah acted like a child. But that also doesn't mean that what was said wasn't said in regards to Sandy's opinions (again, I really don't believe this is the first time they've had that "conversation". It was strongly alluded to that this was something they had talked about before, and come on. Look at this girl. You really think this is the first time this has ever been brought up? I don't really buy that this is a projection because of the manner in which his political stance is brought up through this episode. They've talked about this before. From the way that Hannah talked about it with Sandy later in the episode, they've talked about these two policies before). Was that the time or place? No. Was it a political discussion? No. Should it have been brought up? No. Is Hannah immature for the ways in which she responded? Yes. Does Sandy have a more full outlook on life than Hannah does? Probably.
However, if Sandy doesn't believe in gay marriage, which is what the show alludes to, than Elijah has some reason to be perturbed with Sandy. Which was my initial point. That's all. I don't have a problem with gay people wishing to not associate with those who don't believe in gay marriage. Whether or not Elijah handled that in a way that was mature (it wasn't) wasn't my point. I was contexualizing Elijah's reactions which I felt had some justification to them, which then resulted in people accusing me of standing with Hannah in her glorious rant against Sandy. That's not what I was saying.
If you want to continue to have a conversation, I'd really, really appreciate it if you didn't continue to reply in the manner in which you are. Because it's annoying and rude.
velvet_nitemare
Member
Was Childish Gambino on for 2 episodes just to fill a quota?
I await an episode in chinatown.
I await an episode in chinatown.
BertramCooper
Banned
Hannah's argument with Sandy felt like a bit from Curb, only not funny.
Hannah and Sandy absolutely had a previous dialog about each of their political and social views. To think that they hadn't before their bust up is daft.
It's a shame that Glover is done because I would rather see Hannah deal with that relationship over anything that Adam could possibly bring to the table. I'm over his creepy-weird schtick. And outside of the conversations that Hannah and Eli could have over Adam, I think I would have preferred a deeper discourse involving Sandy. Oh, well.
Also, this one shot sums up Marnie perfectly:
It's a shame that Glover is done because I would rather see Hannah deal with that relationship over anything that Adam could possibly bring to the table. I'm over his creepy-weird schtick. And outside of the conversations that Hannah and Eli could have over Adam, I think I would have preferred a deeper discourse involving Sandy. Oh, well.
Also, this one shot sums up Marnie perfectly:
Lena Dunham is on the newest episode of Alec Baldwin's podcast/radio show: Here's the Thing
A little late, but I just finished the S2 premiere. Didn't like how they kind of brushed the Marnie/Hannah fight under the rug as well as not really making it clear why Hannah was so over Adam at that point. Rest of the episode was great. I wish Shoshanna was a bigger part of the show, she's so great. Maybe this season she'll be a larger role.
Episode 2: The fight felt kind of forced, but I don't see how Sandy was anything other than the victim from both Hannah and Elijah. Also the ending felt a bit weird in that I have never heard of police showing up due to a call that didn't even ring more than once, if at all. Is that a thing? How would they even know?
I swear Shoshanna is like the one scene wonder in most episodes she's in. Jessa was awesome in this episode too.
Episode 2: The fight felt kind of forced, but I don't see how Sandy was anything other than the victim from both Hannah and Elijah. Also the ending felt a bit weird in that I have never heard of police showing up due to a call that didn't even ring more than once, if at all. Is that a thing? How would they even know?
I swear Shoshanna is like the one scene wonder in most episodes she's in. Jessa was awesome in this episode too.
TOP SHOTTA
Member
'Shortalls' should be banned from the planet.
Right down to and including even the two pairs that two different 105lb models managed to pull off, that I saw when I googled to see if it was a real thing. Baby doll dresses and shortalls: clothing that should have been manufactured with a garbage bucket around it.
Hannah in those things... My god... I love her and love the show but she has never looked worse than she did in that one scene.
Right down to and including even the two pairs that two different 105lb models managed to pull off, that I saw when I googled to see if it was a real thing. Baby doll dresses and shortalls: clothing that should have been manufactured with a garbage bucket around it.
Hannah in those things... My god... I love her and love the show but she has never looked worse than she did in that one scene.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I think Lena is purposely trying to make Hanna as repulsive as she can. Both character and looks wise.
Because my god if Hanna is anywhere close to real life Lena.
Because my god if Hanna is anywhere close to real life Lena.
That was the point.
I'd say looks wise they probably are not that different. And Hannah is obviously based on Lena's own life, though I'm sure Lena plays up the more terrible character aspects.
ThisWreckage
Banned
I don't feel there's a single likable character in the show. As a result, I don't feel anything for these characters. Maybe disgust, but that's not entertainment...it's a vexation. Mad Men and Breaking Bad, for example, are chock full of shitty, unlikable people but the writing is so good the viewer often finds themselves sympathizing or even pulling for those very characters. This show reads like some hipster wankfest fantasy sans the whimsy. It's a show where shallow, aimless characters divulge themselves by doing shallow, aimless things. It's a damnation of youth, not a celebration of it. I would not want to hang out with these people and I refuse to give up anymore of my free time watching such entitled, ironic, snot nosed little shits. I never thought I'd prefer baby boomers, but this show gets the blame for that.
I dunno, I think the characters are interesting, if not likable. Personally I do find Shoshanna and Charlie fairly likable, but one is the least important of the leads and one is a recurring character. Maybe it's just me.
There are definitely moments where I kind of hate it but also moments where I really like it. It's always entertaining, at least.
There are definitely moments where I kind of hate it but also moments where I really like it. It's always entertaining, at least.
BertramCooper
Banned
This bothered me, too.
I have no affection for the Republican Party in its current state, but both Hannah and Elijah seemed to be making broad assumptions about Sandy's beliefs simply because he identifies as a Republican. There exists a contingent of Republicans that thinks government, in its "ideal" limited form, should not meddle in the personal lives of its citizens, and based on that logic, supports gay marriage. Having met several New York Republicans, it wouldn't surprise me if Sandy were that type.
But the problem is that Sandy didn't actually challenge Hannah or Elijah on any of this. All we got were a bunch of catty remarks from Elijah and a bitchfest from Hannah, and in the end, we don't really have any idea what Sandy thinks about anything.
Really weak writing.
I think that was the point, Hannah is a bitch.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I don't think it was weak. Sandy was basically an accesory to show a bit more of Hanna's shitty character. She didn't give much of a shit about his boyfriend's leanings until she got a confession she didn't like, and then she lashed out, all judgmental, because fuck you, I'm the most self-absorbed and repugnant person in this universe and I think everybody (parents, friends, employers) should give me the nod even if I'm nothing but a bratty cunt.
He did serve his purpose, as superficial as it was.
He did serve his purpose, as superficial as it was.
I think, or rather hope, that Dunham meant for this to show just how entitled and immature these characters are with the whole Sandy character. Indeed, if Sandy is truly gone after spending about a full two minutes on screen across 2 episodes, then I would only count him as a plot device and not a character. He seems to only have existed for that lone encounter with Elijah and the fight with Hannah, and to show us that Hannah and Elijah are much more closed minded and immature than they would ever like to admit. Jessa actually does call Hannah out on it, though it's kind of gross to me that Elijah gets away with it.
This almost certainly has to deliberate on Dunham's part. I can't believe she would have done this as anything else.
BertramCooper
Banned
I often feel like Hannah is a really shitty ripoff of Daisy from Spaced.
But I feel it's cheap to not have Hannah learn anything from that relationship. She gets all bitchy and judgmental, but in the end, Sandy didn't even bother setting her straight by challenging her preconceptions.
But I feel it's cheap to not have Hannah learn anything from that relationship. She gets all bitchy and judgmental, but in the end, Sandy didn't even bother setting her straight by challenging her preconceptions.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Hannah is the only female character on TV I've ever wanted to punch in the gut.
Way above Betty Drapper and Skysky. Way, way above.
Way above Betty Drapper and Skysky. Way, way above.
Agreed, but to be fair, over the 12 episodes, none of the characters have really developed that much, if even at all. If anything, Marnie and Hannah have gotten worse.
BertramCooper
Banned
I dunno. Perhaps we're wrongly assuming these characters are supposed to develop. It's not like Larry David has changed all that much in eight seasons of Curb.
But the premise and style of the show lead you to the assumption that it's a coming-of-age piece, and that we're meant to see these characters eventually leave this prolonged adolescence and grudgingly submit to adulthood.
Right on. Assuming the show lasts, let's say, 5 seasons, it'll be interesting to see where it goes with it's characters and how it ends. At this point, it is a coming of age of young people fresh outta college trying to land on their feet and become "grown-ups" in full. Hell, it sort of seems like Jessa has already gotten there, in a sense (though it probably won't last).
Not a chance. I'm surprised it lasted this long.
Quite enjoyed the second episode. One of the better ones so far. Several hilarious moments. Donald Glover's character is great. And it's good to see some "mature" discussion of politics in a show like this instead of the assumed liberal bias; reminds me of 30 Rock with Jack vs. Liz.
What mature discussion of politics? All I saw was Hannah lashing out because the dude she was sleeping with didn't like something she wrote.
BertramCooper
Banned
Jessa is engaging in some sort of weird experiment I don't understand. But I'm willing to see where it goes because it will almost certainly be the most entertaining arc of the season.
Eh, the ratings are average but they aren't terrible, and the show has tons of awards. I can see it being on the air for a few more years unless ratings drop sharply.
I was actually referring to Jessa's marriage, I couldn't believe it was still going. Although whatever it takes to keep Chris O'Dowd on the show, I'm okay with.
BertramCooper
Banned
I'm not the only one annoyed by the fact that all of the main characters' names are alliterative, right?
It's oh-so-precious.
It's oh-so-precious.
i think she's that kid who everyone looked up to and thought was really cool for doing these crazy wild things, and she started to lose that by being a nanny, so she went nuts and got married.
or maybe this is a way of locking herself down and ~growing up.~
e; it's weird
airmangataosenai
Member
Yeah, this thread has really made my brain hurt. It's fine if you disliked the cringe aspect of the show but to have the fact that it was intentional fly over your head so clearly is baffling. Not liking a style of writing is not the same as it being bad.
Moreover the comparison to Breaking Bad is ironic. Someone said that Girls has bad writing because they don't give the characters enough redeeming qualities whereas Breaking Bad manages a balance. The way they make the main character "Sympathetic" is to give him cancer and an impossibly difficult personal situation in the first episode, the very definition of lazy writing. Obviously the show overall is fantastic but this obsession over likability is ridiculous.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Oh, I can agree on that. Absolutely. I know I wouldn't throw a girl I liked out of my house just like that, although maybe the race thing was a bit too much. In any case, that particular bit was indeed poor.
Wanda/Wander
Member
You're using lazy writing in relation to Breaking Bad in defense of Girls.
Wat.
airmangataosenai
Member
Unless you're wanting to argue that giving a character cancer isn't a shortcut to making them more sympathetic and palatable for an audience, what's your point here?
TOP SHOTTA
Member
Seriously what meaningful discussion of politics are you guys referring to. That was absolutely not what I took away from the thing. Not at all. If anything they made an almost comical point to just state he was a republican and she isn't. Boom. That's it & that's all.
EDIT: Kind of beaten. But for anybody that watched it close, it seems to me they went out of their way to talk about nothing specific.
"Steadfast" Ugh.
I love this show but didn't really care for this episode. I think they need to be careful about making Marnie a really "ugly" person despite being so pretty on the outside.
They don't have to go out of their way making her into a complete dick in order to make the point.
Also, no oral + no anal? She sounds like a lot of fun to fuck long term
EDIT: Kind of beaten. But for anybody that watched it close, it seems to me they went out of their way to talk about nothing specific.
"Steadfast" Ugh.
I love this show but didn't really care for this episode. I think they need to be careful about making Marnie a really "ugly" person despite being so pretty on the outside.
They don't have to go out of their way making her into a complete dick in order to make the point.
Also, no oral + no anal? She sounds like a lot of fun to fuck long term
Yep. In the YouTube behind-the-scenes video for Episode 2, Lena talks about how the Hannah character tends to like fusion clothing and clothes that only sounds interesting.
There also was an article about how the costume department modifies stuff so her clothes look off.
- Status