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God of War Ragnarok's combat could've been better if it was more like Ryse: Son of Rome

Drizzlehell

Banned
Another spicy premise, I know. But bear with me for a second, will ya?

Obviously Ryse isn't a perfect game. Most people would say that it's not even a good game. Others would say that it's a pretty shitty game. And all of those opinions have merit. Upon my recent replay of Ryse, I frequently found myself looking at my watch, wondering how long is it going to take to finish it, which is telling how much of a dull and repetitive slog the combat can be in this game. It's already a very short game and yet it still manages to overstay its welcome with its simplistic, repetitive gameplay, over-reliance on quick time event finishing moves, and overall emphasis on style and spectacle over any actual substance.

However...

There's one thing that Ryse does about its combat system that's pretty cool.



Notice how the camera works in this game. When you're outside of combat, it assumes a very familiar position over the player's shoulder with the controls resembling the traditional third person shooter scheme that's also used in recent God of War games. However, while the camera position and control scheme remains the same almost the entire time in God of War, as soon as you enter combat in Ryse, the game actually pulls its camera back and switches to a more orbiting view of the action while the player gains the ability to direct their attacks in any which way while also having the ability to parry any incoming attacks, regardless of where they're coming from. Frankly, that's quite an elegant solution for a melee action game of this sort and I think it would solve the majority of the problems with the combat that the recent God of War games are suffering from.

Now, the obvious question is: why God of War designers decided to use such a camera in the first place? Well, according to the commentary provided in the making of videos, it seems like they wanted to prioritize immersion and staying up close and personal with the characters. And that's a fine idea on paper, but as soon as you get into the fray with several monsters at once, some of which attack you from off-screen and when it's frequently difficult to notice, even with all the attack indicators and shit, it just becomes a bit of a clusterfuck and a constant source of frustration, especially on higher difficulties.

If the camera was allowed to zoom out a little bit and give you a more comprehensive view on the battlefield as well as bigger freedom of movement, then I think the combat in this game would work much better overall. Obviously the moveset, enemy variety, and everything else should remain the same, but the only change that I would welcome concerns the camera work and movement during combat.
 
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Vick

Gold Member
Another spicy premise, I know. But bear with me for a second, will ya?
happy-days-the-fonz.gif

Now, the obvious question is: why God of War designers decided to use such a camera in the first place? Well, according to the commentary provided in the making of videos, it seems like they wanted to prioritize immersion and staying up close and personal with the characters. And that's a fine idea on paper, but as soon as you get into the fray with several monsters at once, some of which attack you from off-screen and when it's frequently difficult to notice, even with all the attack indicators and shit, it just becomes a bit of a clusterfuck and a constant source of frustration, especially on higher difficulties.
That's because you're not worthy of being called God of War.
You don't mind your surrounding at all times and therefore simply deserve to get hit.

Those systems are (were) perfect, and allowed skilled players to look and especially feel like literal Gods (=masters) of War (=combat):







However I agree when it comes to Ragnarok. Encounters in that game were not as maniacally polished as GoW 2018, and the game legit felt confused at times and even made me wish for a further away camera, something I would have never asked for and even refused with passion in GoW 2018.
 
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Drizzlehell

Banned
Howeverm I agree when it comes to Ragnarok. Encounters in that game were not as maniacally polished as GoW 2018, and the game legit felt confused at times and even made me wish for a further away camera, something I would have never asked for and even refuse with passion in GoW 2018.
I'm never was a fan of this scheme. These are third person shooter controls that they shoved into a melee game where enemies frequently come at you from behind. And to solve that problem they decided to put a big glowing arrow around Kratos to warn you about an incoming attack... and then obfuscate it anyway with a maelstrom of particle effects.

It just sounds like an all around bad idea and I'm really surprised that they went with this design.
 
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Vick

Gold Member
I'm never was a fan of this scheme. These are third person shooter controls that they shoved into a melee game where enemies frequently come at you from behind. And to solve that problem they decided to put a big glowing arrow around Kratos to warn you about an incoming attack... and then obfuscate it anyway with a maelstrom of particle effects.

It just sounds like an all around bad idea and I'm really surprised that they went with this design.
It may sound like a bad idea to you, to others pad-in-hand it's absolutely brilliant and it very obviously paid off big time considering its reception, and with reception I mean hardcore and almost superhuman gamers like GBG.

Those systems simply require you to be constantly focused and engaged.
And I said focused and engaged, not frustrated, but given your preference for the infinitely simpler approach of the older titles, I guess It's obvious why it's not your cup of tea.

You want to press buttons and get rid of hordes of enemies in an instant, many praised action games do that, fair and understandable.

But others want to personally feel in the arena, be given flawless controls and infinite amount of control in every facet of the fight and actually earn that feeling of being a God of War.

 
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Drizzlehell

Banned
It may sound like a bad idea to you, to others pad-in-hand it's absolutely brilliant and it very obviously paid off big time considering its reception, and with reception I mean hardcore and almost superhuman gamers like GBG.

Those system simply require you to be constantly focused and engaged.
And I said focused and engaged, not frustrated, but given your preference for the infinitely simpler approach of the older titles, I guess It's obvious why it's not your cup of tea.
Right, because it's just incomprehensible that a system like this may have it's flaws. No, it must be a skill issue and also let's talk shit about older games for good measure.

Weak.
 

MarkMe2525

Gold Member
Third one in one week? You get paid overtime?

You are really suggesting that one of the best combat gameplay from recent times would be better if it was like a mediocre game from 2013 based on QTE's? What a genius.
Did you even read the post, he was very specific about what feature would benefit God of War. 2018 GoW was my favorite game of last gen and I agree with OP.
 
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TLZ

Banned
as soon as you enter combat in Ryse, the game actually pulls its camera back and switches to a more orbiting view of the action
While I think this does sound nice, I didn't see it happening in this video you posted. The camera stayed the same when entering combat.
 

Vick

Gold Member
Right, because it's just incomprehensible that a system like this may have it's flaws. No, it must be a skill issue and also let's talk shit about older games for good measure.

Weak.
It's not a flaw of the system though, you're criticizing the actual system because said system simply couldn't work any different. You change the camera, everything breaks. You want another game.

And yes, you very obviously suck at the game because otherwise you wouldn't complain about it or say what you said. I'd be curious to see a video of you playing God of War.
 
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Vick

Gold Member
Third one in one week? You get paid overtime?

You are really suggesting that one of the best combat gameplay from recent times would be better if it was like a mediocre game from 2013 based on QTE's? What a genius.
The actual best combat system from recent times.. but let's say by a western studio to not ruffle excessive amount of feathers.
 
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CGNoire

Member
I just so sick and tired of staring at main characters backs the whole time. Let us rotate the fucking camera when moving.

And if your worried about aiming Mercenaries solved that 3rd person camera issue near 20 years ago but nobody took notes. The soultion is when attacking you aim at target like normal and when pressing the attack button the character lightning fast turns toward crosshair and locks camera behind like normal.....once combat stops....camera is free to roam around character again.
 
I just so sick and tired of staring at main characters backs the whole time. Let us rotate the fucking camera when moving.

And if your worried about aiming Mercenaries solved that 3rd person camera issue near 20 years ago but nobody took notes. The soultion is when attacking you aim at target like normal and when pressing the attack button the character lightning fast turns toward crosshair and locks camera behind like normal.....once combat stops....camera is free to roam around character again.
Ghosts of Tsushima IMO has a very excellent 3rd person camera. Manages to be both incredibly stylistic and useful for the mechanics required.
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
It's not a flaw of the system though, you're criticizing the actual system because said system simply couldn't work any different. You change the camera, everything breaks. You want another game.

And yes, you very obviously suck at the game because otherwise you wouldn't complain about it or say what you said. I'd be curious to see a video of you playing God of War.
the-rock-eye-roll.gif
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
I get what you’re saying about the camera and I wonder if they tried it and decided there would be a bit of a disconnect every time the action started and stopped.
 

jm89

Member
What a silly comment. It's obviously playable in its current form but that doesn't mean we should laugh off a good idea which the OP has one. It's a stylistic choice in GoW:R that does in fact make the combat feel more limiting. Just because you can adapt to it doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
I don't see it being an improvement if they have to sacrifice they're stylistic choice. Imo they found a good balance.
 

JTCx

Member
What a silly comment. It's obviously playable in its current form but that doesn't mean we should laugh off a good idea which the OP has one. It's a stylistic choice in GoW:R that does in fact make the combat feel more limiting. Just because you can adapt to it doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
Yup, skill issue.
 
I don't see it being an improvement if they have to sacrifice they're stylistic choice. Imo they found a good balance.
I have no issue with the camera but I see what others are saying. It hinders what could be possible, and choosing style over substance IMO is not a good excuse. Ghosts of Tsushima, now that is a camera that is both stylistic and mechanically sound for fighting many enemies at once.
 

Yoboman

Member
I'm never was a fan of this scheme. These are third person shooter controls that they shoved into a melee game where enemies frequently come at you from behind. And to solve that problem they decided to put a big glowing arrow around Kratos to warn you about an incoming attack... and then obfuscate it anyway with a maelstrom of particle effects.

It just sounds like an all around bad idea and I'm really surprised that they went with this design.
Or you stop being bad at the game and manoeuver yourself so you aren't being flanked like a normal person would
 

jm89

Member
I have no issue with the camera but I see what others are saying. It hinders what could be possible, and choosing style over substance IMO is not a good excuse. Ghosts of Tsushima, now that is a camera that is both stylistic and mechanically sound for fighting many enemies at once.
They haven't just chosen style over substance though. Substance isnt there just because folks want it to be like another game.
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
I get what you’re saying about the camera and I wonder if they tried it and decided there would be a bit of a disconnect every time the action started and stopped.
Possibly. If their priority was to keep you as close to the character as possible then definitely. Or maybe they didn't want it to resemble the old games too much since they obviously wanted to put some distance between the reboot and the latest game before it (Ascension) which was kind of a dud.
 
They haven't just chosen style over substance though. Substance isnt there just because folks want it to be like another game.
It’s less about being like another game and using an existing example to demonstrate what would work better. Anyway, agree to disagree.
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
As someone who loves Ryse and got the game day 1 along with Dead Rising 3 and Kinect

Ragnarok's combat is levels better than Ryse and I didn't even mind the QTE finishers in Ryse they're some of my favorite finishers in gaming but yeah
 
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Markio128

Gold Member
All the tools are there to play the game as it was designed. And I’d strongly argue that it makes the combat more realistic.

It’s all about being aware of your surroundings and anticipating where the enemies are. You can easily move out of danger spots to get a better handle on the area by zipping to higher ground. You can turn on the spot. You can clear surrounding enemies by using your chaos blades. You can roll from enemies. And that’s just a few examples.

The combat in GOW:R is possibly the best I have ever experienced in a game of its kind and the close camera just amplifies the intensity of it.
 
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