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Gorilla killed after dragging child at Cincinnati Zoo

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Jenov

Member
The kid is 4. That's not "lack of respect towards the parent". That's the kid being 4. Do you have a kid?

And maybe this was a terrible parent. Or maybe this is the one time the kid escaped her watch and it just so happened to end in the worst possible way. I'm assuming you clearly know the answer to this, otherwise you wouldn't be jumping to such a conclusion.



Or, possibly, instances of this are so rare, that when they do happen maybe we chalk it up to unfortunate accidents and not instantly call for the head of the parents because you and a ton of other people managed to make it out of the Grand Canyon ok.

To be fair, a lot of people die at the grand canyon, Here's a 4 year old that fell: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/preschooler-killed-in-grand-canyon-fall/

Apparently, about 12 people per year die there o_O "... an average of 12 people die there annually, according to park statistics." http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-man-falls-350-feet-to-his-death-at-grand-canyon/

Short of plexi-glassing the world out, there's always going to be someone who manages to find a way.
 

Maengun1

Member
Do you ever eat steak? burgers? chicken? fish?

Because if so, then a human's appetite is more valuable than an animal's life.


I mean, the factor that makes people more sad about the gorilla's death is that it comes from a critically endangered wild species at serious risk of extinction. The total number of gorillas left on Earth can be counted in thousands. Harambe was a young, healthy animal that they planned on breeding, and now another viable individual has been removed from an already really tiny and shrinking genepool. From a biodiversity standpoint it's a significantly bigger deal than eating 1 of the millions of domesticated chickens who are bred every day just so people can eat them later. IMO, anyway. No one necessarily has to care about whether gorillas go extinct or not but a lot of people really do.

Again, I'm not interested in getting into the blame game or freaking out at the people involved. Shit happens. I just think it's fine to be sad over the gorilla's death. Actually seeing how many people are upset over stories like this gives me a little bit of hope that we might not be heading for a future where there are no more wild animals left in the world. It'd be nice if there was an uptick in donations to conservation organizations.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I mean, the factor that makes people more sad about the gorilla's death is that it comes from a critically endangered wild species at serious risk of extinction. The total number of gorillas left on Earth can be counted in thousands. Harambe was a young, healthy animal that they planned on breeding, and now another viable individual has been removed from an already really tiny and shrinking genepool. From a biodiversity standpoint it's a significantly bigger deal than eating 1 of the millions of domesticated chickens who are bred every day just so people can eat them later. IMO, anyway. No one necessarily has to care about whether gorillas go extinct or not but a lot of people really do.

Again, I'm not interested in getting into the blame game or freaking out at the people involved. Shit happens. I just think it's fine to be sad over the gorilla's death. Actually seeing how many people are upset over stories like this gives me a little bit of hope that we might not be heading for a future where there are no more wild animals left in the world. It'd be nice if there was an uptick in donations to conservation organizations.

I agree very strongly with the sentiment of this post, but I do want to point out on a factual level that Harambe was a western lowland gorilla, of which there are ~150,000 extant. The seriously endangered gorillas are the western cross-river [~350], the eastern mountain [~500] and the Bwindi [~400]. It doesn't reduce the tragedy much if at all, but we should look for small blessings where we can.
 

gai_shain

Member
Yes it is quite sad. The gorilla looked protective in what little we see of the 10 minute incident.

what i don't understand in light of the two recent zoo animal deaths; why are fast acting tranquilizers not more readily available? One would think the zoos would have these things as readily available as lethal fire arms.

I mean it took ten minutes. That is an eternity during an emergency such as this.

Contrary to the belief that is held in alot of these threads tranquilizers used in a zoo are not working as fast as tranquilizers used in splinter cell
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
I put the blame on the Zoo rather than parents for failing to prevent people from going into the enclosure rather than the parents.

Did you guys miss the part about the child telling the mother that he was going to jump into the gorilla pen before doing so? Because ignoring your child after that isn't even negligence, it's straight up recklessness.

First off kids say stupid thing all the time, secondly you seemed to miss this;

"The boy’s mother was also tending to several other young children."

So the poster was right that people are acting like they know how kids behave and foolishly blaming the parents when it wasn't their fault.
 

Aselith

Member
I put the blame on the Zoo rather than parents for failing to prevent people from going into the enclosure rather than the parents.



First off kids say stupid thing all the time, secondly you seemed to miss this;



So the poster was right that people are acting like they know how kids behave and foolishly blaming the parents when it wasn't their fault.

It still was. Just cause you have too many children to be able to corral doesn't absolve you of responsibility when one gets in a bad situation under your care.
 
Why is the defense of parents always,"you don't know how quickly a child can get away?" Yes we understand that but if you know that why wouldn't you pay extra attention in a situation such as this
 
Parents take eyes of child for two seconds and something bad happens:

"WOW SUCH NEGLECT PARENTING THEY SHOULD BE IN JAIL"


meanwhile in another thread

Tennessee Mom Arrested After Letting Kids Play Outside Unsupervised (nothing bad happened to the kids though)

"WOW THIS SOCIETY IS SO FUCKED. HELICOPTOR PARENTING RUINS EVERYTHING"


Parents take their eyes off kids sometimes. Bad things can happen. Either you think it is neglectful parenting all the time (in which case the Tennessee mother was rightfully jailed) or you bizarrely only think it is wrong if some bad consequence happens. In which case these parents would be 100% great parents if the child hadn't wandered into the enclosure.
 

Kinyou

Member
Parents take eyes of child for two seconds and something bad happens:

"WOW SUCH NEGLECT PARENTING THEY SHOULD BE IN JAIL"


meanwhile in another thread

Tennessee Mom Arrested After Letting Kids Play Outside Unsupervised (nothing bad happened to the kids though)

"WOW THIS SOCIETY IS SO FUCKED. HELICOPTOR PARENTING RUINS EVERYTHING"


Parents take their eyes off kids sometimes. Bad things can happen. Either you think it is neglectful parenting all the time (in which case the Tennessee mother was rightfully jailed) or you bizarrely only think it is wrong if some bad consequence happens. In which case these parents would be 100% great parents if the child hadn't wandered into the enclosure.
I'd say context matters a lot. Like how dangerous the environment is.
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
It still was. Just cause you have too many children to be able to corral doesn't absolve you of responsibility when one gets in a bad situation under your care.

You never been round kids have you?

It takes only one second for the child to run off the moment you turn your back.

Why is the defense of parents always,"you don't know how quickly a child can get away?" Yes we understand that but if you know that why wouldn't you pay extra attention in a situation such as this

Because no matter how hard a parent pay attention the moment they get distracted and trust me it will happen the child has wandered off from their parents.
 
I agree very strongly with the sentiment of this post, but I do want to point out on a factual level that Harambe was a western lowland gorilla, of which there are ~150,000 extant. The seriously endangered gorillas are the western cross-river [~350], the eastern mountain [~500] and the Bwindi [~400]. It doesn't reduce the tragedy much if at all, but we should look for small blessings where we can.

Great post.

That's because the zookeepers aren't doing headshots though. Get gud, zookeepers

Haha lol.
 
You never been round kids have you?

It takes only one second for the child to run off the moment you turn your back.



Because no matter how hard a parent pay attention the moment they get distracted and trust me it will happen the child has wandered off from their parents.

This just sounds like such a cop out. Do all parents on GAF agree with this? I'm not a parent so I'll just get dismissed here, but when I was at the zoo with my niece she was either holding my hand or on my shoulders. On the rare occasion she wasn't doing those things I watched her like a hawk.
 

Aselith

Member
You never been round kids have you?

It takes only one second for the child to run off the moment you turn your back.

I have indeed and that's why it's so important to keep an eye on them at all times in situations like this nor does that make it not your responsibility when this happens. If you have so many children that you can't watch them properly, they should be on leashes or buddying up with the older kids.

I sincerely hope there are now parents running around with the thought process that it's not their fault when their kids get away. Like who are you blaming just anyone around you? "There was a dude standing RIGHT THERE, he couldn't tell me my child was walking away from me?" "Ugh, why does this restaurant not have child cages, where is that boy!"
 

Kinyou

Member
Well, contextually speaking what's the percentage of children killed near or around their home versus a zoo?
That's a good question. Though it would also have to factor in how often kids are left unwatched near their home and how often that happens in zoos. Generally I think it comes down to how dangerous people perceive zoos to be. Minds seem a bit split about that.
 
The kid is 4. That's not "lack of respect towards the parent". That's the kid being 4. Do you have a kid?

And maybe this was a terrible parent. Or maybe this is the one time the kid escaped her watch and it just so happened to end in the worst possible way. I'm assuming you clearly know the answer to this, otherwise you wouldn't be jumping to such a conclusion.


Purposely jumping into a Silver back gorilla enclosure after your parent or authority figure told you not to is not being a kid that is bad behavior. Now you personally may hand waive that type of behavior as "just being a kid" but what you called just being a kid got the child seriously hurt and a gorilla who did nothing wrong in this situation killed.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
That's a good question. Though it would also have to factor in how often kids are left unwatched near their home and how often that happens in zoos. Generally I think it comes down to how dangerous people perceive zoos to be. Minds seem a bit split about that.
Zoos are clearly safe and aimed to be a family oriented affair. Like I've said above, more children are hurt at fairs than at zoos and we're neither demonizing people for letting their children ride rides nor shutting down fairs. There is an inherent risk in being human. Petting zoos are things despite some of those animals that are 99.99% of the time nice and cuddly yet can still hurt children. There is a level of risk that we have to say, ok, it's acceptable. It's like air travel. Some of us will die, we still fly, we still consider it safe. Hell it's like normal travel by car. Throwing the dice every time yet it's an acceptable risk. We don't have to like the risks, we can try to mitigate them but I don't think that every situation automatically carries blame with it. I think it's possible neither the parents nor the operators can be blamed for everything, there's times where they both could be and times where just one or the other. Without knowing exactly how this went down I can't say who, if anyone, carries any blame for this incident.
 
So the poster was right that people are acting like they know how kids behave and foolishly blaming the parents when it wasn't their fault.

I wasn't there, so I can't say for sure if this was 100% the mother's fault (which depending on the circumstances is completely possible), 50% her fault, or 0%. All we have to go on are some witness statements.

AT BEST, you are making just as many assumptions about the circumstances as I am. But, having been to that exhibit, it would take a 4 year old far more than a few seconds to climb the fence (as short as it is), push through the 8-10 feet of thick bushes, then decide to jump 12 feet down onto concrete. Again, this is AFTER he said he was going to try and get inside.

It is of course possible that, due to a series of unfortunate events, the child got in with no fault on the mother's part. I just find it very unlikely. Here's a question for you: how many children can one person responsibly look after at a zoo at once? In my view, if she was looking after 5 or more children by herself, then she was irresponsible bringing that many children, and it's her fault. If she only had 3 children or less with her, then she absolutely should have been watching this one, and it's her fault.
 

shoplifter

Member
Four year olds: rational actors

Clearly they're capable of driving and other activities requiring rational thought



///

Yeah, I wouldn't let my kid drive. I will let him be an ultra though.
 

Aselith

Member
Four year olds: rational actors

Clearly they're capable of driving and other activities requiring rational thought

image.php
 
I'm glad the kid is ok. That's all I really care about right now. I'm not going to pass judgement on anyone. That's for authorities to decide on the parents. They'll have to answer questions about what happened. I'm not going to say they are shit parents like so many in here claim they are.

Shit happens and shit can happen in the blink of an eye. Kids literally get kidnapped in the blink of an eye because a parent turned away for a few seconds.

Again I'm glad the child is ok. It's an unfortunate situation but it happened and the kid will be ok. I'm thankful for that.
When my son was 3, he once got away from me and ran into the street. I was kneeled down tying his shoe, when a guy tapped me on the shoulder to tell me I had dropped something. In that instant that I turned around, distracted, my son darted into the street. God smiled on us that day, and I was able to snatch him up before tragedy struck. If things had turned out badly, would I be considered a shitty parent? It's so easy to judge from the comfort of your keyboard; none of us were there. Kids can get into shit in the blink of an eye; if you don't have kids you can't relate to the experience.
 

.JayZii

Banned
Parents take eyes of child for two seconds and something bad happens:

"WOW SUCH NEGLECT PARENTING THEY SHOULD BE IN JAIL"


meanwhile in another thread

Tennessee Mom Arrested After Letting Kids Play Outside Unsupervised (nothing bad happened to the kids though)

"WOW THIS SOCIETY IS SO FUCKED. HELICOPTOR PARENTING RUINS EVERYTHING"


Parents take their eyes off kids sometimes. Bad things can happen. Either you think it is neglectful parenting all the time (in which case the Tennessee mother was rightfully jailed) or you bizarrely only think it is wrong if some bad consequence happens. In which case these parents would be 100% great parents if the child hadn't wandered into the enclosure.
Are these the same over-reactionary people in both threads? Seems important for your argument.
 

Dunlop

Member
This just sounds like such a cop out. Do all parents on GAF agree with this? I'm not a parent so I'll just get dismissed here, but when I was at the zoo with my niece she was either holding my hand or on my shoulders. On the rare occasion she wasn't doing those things I watched her like a hawk.

You should absolutely be watching your kids, but what not mentioned yet is how long it took for the kid to get into the enclosure. The article I posted earlier mentions that the mother was watching multiple children. Did it take 15 seconds or 15 minutes to be able to get inside?

Some of these posts condemning the parents make my skin crawl. They were taking their children to the zoo for a nice family outing (monsters!!) and a very bad situation occurred. They did not want to kill an animal or to deal with the near death of one child.
 

Aselith

Member
You should absolutely be watching your kids, but what not mentioned yet is how long it took for the kid to get into the enclosure. The article I posted earlier mentions that the mother was watching multiple children. Did it take 15 seconds or 15 minutes to be able to get inside?

Some of these posts condemning the parents make my skin crawl. They were taking their children to the zoo for a nice family outing (monsters!!) and a very bad situation occurred. They did not want to kill an animal or to deal with the near death of one child.

I don't think they should be condemned or let off scot free which is the other extreme we're getting. They made mistakes and I'm gonna say the zoo made mistakes judging by the enclosure. They don't deserve a settlement.
 
I dont think anyone's at fault to be honest. Its just a tragic situation all around.

As a parent of an overactive 2 year old, I can sympathize. It must be embarassing as fuck situation for them right now. Its not bad parenting. I dont know enough about them to judge. Like I dont know if the kid is let go unchecked everywhere.

Children at toddler age are very tough to manage. You can control them 100% of the time for some time, but you canot control them 100% of the time for all of the time, especially in places where they get super excited and become a category 5 hurricane.

The zoo did not have a good choice. They had to risk the kid being ripped by a gorilla in front of everyone or take it out and shut the shit down. It was the only probably choice with 100% wanted result: safety of the kid.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Another aspect of this is, if having multiple children of varying ages is deemed too dangerous for public outings, then, what the fuck, the eldest don't get to go anywhere because a child somewhere once got hurt and they have to wait for the youngest to get old enough to do anything? Is that really great for kids? And while I'm sure some will just be like "get a baby sitter" well fuck, some don't have that kind of money and is that really safer than taking your kid outside? Letting a stranger watch your children?
 
You should absolutely be watching your kids, but what not mentioned yet is how long it took for the kid to get into the enclosure. The article I posted earlier mentions that the mother was watching multiple children. Did it take 15 seconds or 15 minutes to be able to get inside?

Some of these posts condemning the parents make my skin crawl. They were taking their children to the zoo for a nice family outing (monsters!!) and a very bad situation occurred. They did not want to kill an animal or to deal with the near death of one child.
Neogaf !!!
 
I don't think they should be condemned or let off scot free which is the other extreme we're getting. They made mistakes and I'm gonna say the zoo made mistakes judging by the enclosure. They don't deserve a settlement.
Of course they deserve a settlement. People get settlements just for slipping in a supermarket; you don't think this child should be compensated for falling into a gorilla habitat?
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Of course they deserve a settlement. People get settlements just for slipping in a supermarket; you don't think this child should be compensated for falling into a gorilla habitat?
I actually disagree. You shouldn't get compensated for circumventing a safety feature. Slipping in a supermarket, depends, did they fail to clean up a spill or mark a wet floor or did the person just trip?

Honestly, a lot of the liability culture in this country needs to go away and be replaced by proper medical coverage that doesn't bankrupt the person and benefits that don't bankrupt you for missing work or taking a huge paycut with whatever shit benefits you have in the event of an injury. Save liability for when there was actual honest to God negligence or criminal intent.
 
The kid said he was going to jump. They do not deserve anything.
Yeah, okay. They will absolutely get something. If a 4 year old can jump in that enclosure at will, regardless of where his parents were, that enclosure is not safe for the public and safety measures need to be updated. You find me one court that won't find that zoo liable for damages.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Should and could are two different things. Also they went decades without an incident. I'm for being proactive and making things safer just because, or even after the fact, but I also don't think it's fair to say it was not safe to the public.

Else train and subway companies need to get recked cause lots of their stations don't block the tracks and more people get hit by them then manhandled by gorillas.
 

Aselith

Member
Yeah, okay. They will absolutely get something. If a 4 year old can jump in that enclosure at will, regardless of where his parents were, that enclosure is not safe for the public and safety measures need to be updated. You find me one court that won't find that zoo liable for damages.

Yeah they will probably get something but not because they deserve to receive it
 

Renoir

Member
Man.. If they started making parents accountable for the things kids do, I bet a lot of parents would keep better track of their kids.

In this case if the zoo could be like you're negligence caused us an animal, pay up. That would defiantly set a precedence .. But I'm sure that would never happen.
But I bet the parents are not going to hesitate to sue the zoo for their fence not being high enough to stop "their" kid from falling in..
 

N° 2048

Member
Yeah, okay. They will absolutely get something. If a 4 year old can jump in that enclosure at will, regardless of where his parents were, that enclosure is not safe for the public and safety measures need to be updated. You find me one court that won't find that zoo liable for damages.

I am saying they do not deserve a settlement. I never said they won't get anything.


Yeah they will probably get something but not because they deserve to receive it

This.
 
Man.. If they started making parents accountable for the things kids do, I bet a lot of parents would keep better track of their kids.

In this case if the zoo could be like you're negligence caused us an animal, pay up. That would defiantly set a precedence .. But I'm sure that would never happen.
But I bet the parents are not going to hesitate to sue the zoo for their fence not being high enough to stop "their" kid from falling in..

Oh you can count on it. And now zoo patrons are cheated out of seeing this gorilla and could see a rise in ticket prices after this family sues the shit out of them. So everybody loses except the parents that couldn't watch their kid.
 
This is unfortunate but a human life is worth more than an animal's. They did what they had to do.


I disagree.
Do they not keep tranquilizer guns handy for example? Why kill it?

Better question.. How is it okay to take gorillas from their home, put them in a fucking zoo, and then kill them when the humans fuck up?

Eeehhh
 
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