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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen



here's how hogwarts legacy RUNS on a gtx 660

good luck

here's how forspoken works on a 2070 super (or any 8 gb card, really)


and this is what happens when you MATCH ps5 settings in spiderman on a 2070 (huge vram limitations, once again)



this is what ratchet and clank expereince looks like on a run off the mill upper end lowend PC. compare that to how smoothly PS5 operates these sections at around 60 fps average with only small microstutter (momentary)

but sure! these games are definitely made with lowend PCs in my mind.

you must forget last of us part 1, which was designed for PS5 and made a joke out of all 8-10 GB cards universall. they specifically had to reengineer solutions to bring texture streaming speeds and improved texture quality presets. but sure.

Okay is a 660 a 2060? Who was talking about a 660?

Also that Spider-Man footage running on a slightly lower frame rate is not the slam dunk you may think

And I don’t know why you put up that ratchet footage as it looks nigh-identical to the ps5 version, was running at a high fps, and handled the portal rifts smoothly

TLOU1 is also a terrible example because that game was infamously poorly optimized for PC. Infamously.
 

yamaci17

Member
Okay is a 660 a 2060? Who was talking about a 660?

Also that Spider-Man footage running on a slightly lower frame rate is not the slam dunk you may think

And I don’t know why you put up that ratchet footage as it looks nigh-identical to the ps5 version, was running at a high fps, and handled the portal rifts smoothly

TLOU1 is also a terrible example because that game was infamously poorly optimized for PC. Infamously.
hogwarts legacy is a ps4 game at its core


gtx 660 release date 2012
midrange GPU at its time
ps4 release date 2013

gtx 660 is/was around ps4 performance (if not better)

rtx 2060 release date 2018
midrange GPu at its time
ps5 release date 2020

rtx 2060 is way below ps5 performance

and literally same started to happen. 2060 will produce graphics you see in hogwarts legacy (it already does so in Forspoken. it will do so in FF XVI. both games have insane texture quality that calls for insane amounts of VRAM, specifically the VRAM budget PS5 has)




look at this and gtx 660.

you have to understand that rtx 2060 / 2070 with their tiny 6-8 GB buffers will suffer the same fate as GTX 660-780 did with their small 2-3 GB vram buffers.

Even targeting PS5 vram alone is enough proof that lowend PCs do not hold back "spiderman 2" development or any other PS5 game development, really.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
it is cope.

ratchet and clank doesn't run correctly or smoothly like it does on PS5 even on upper lowend hardware/midrange hardware. try those portal sections on something like ryzen 3600, run off the mild 2 gb/s pcie3 nvme ssd and see four yourself. .it is not held back by "lowend PCs". nor will the spiderman 2.

it will, at best, release in 2025. by the 2025, lowend PC will be a rtx 5060 and a zen 3 CPU , that is still miles ahead of PS5

get ahead of yourself. spiderman 2 wont be running on current day lowend pc, such as 2060/3700x rigs. it will be a detestable experience at best.

when it does land on PC, lowest end PC will most likely demolish whatever PS5 has to offer. so in that respect, you're really coping and its just funny.
While I agree that Nixxes' ports havent been running all that well on equivalent AMD hardware, i think 2025 is too late. Nixxes is VERY productive. They managed to get Spiderman ported in 7 months. Miles in 3 months. Ratchet in 7 months, and are likely heads down porting Spiderman 2 as we speak. I think it will be 6 months max now that they pretty much know the engine and have the baseline engine ported to PC. With the spiderman ports, it was RT. With Ratchet, its the ssd streaming. Spiderman isnt doing anything truly new or innovative like ratchet so it should be a quick and dirty port. Sony had no problems porting TLOU to PC just six months after launch. They will do the same with spiderman 2 and get it ready before the fiscal year ends in march.

Remember, this is the only first party release all year. They will want it ported to PC asap to maximize revenue. Herman said 1-2 years for single player games, JImbo said 2 years. Nonsense.TLOU proves that they were just jerking us around. Nixxes will get this done fast then move on to wolverine.

I am thinking about waiting for spiderman 2 on PC. How did miles and ratchet run? If i can get dlss 4k quality running with RT on at 60 fps PS5 setinngs, i might wait for the PC version. Not gonna lie, the latest footage convinced me to give this a shot. i was hellbent on not buying it to make a statement lmao
 

hlm666

Member
I like how path tracing in this game just means more shadows.
Pretty sure the comparison was Psycho GI to Raster and not path tracing going by the comment accompanying it.
edit: just saw the link has options to change the comparsion. That said you can clearly see path tracing lighting from the light below and yellow light above hitting the mech properly, and proper shadows from the self shadowing.

I think we need to talk about what Psycho GI does ok, it adds 1 bounces from the sun/moon light sources only. Not every light source in the game. It's why you guys are not seeing appreciable differences in some of the places your doing comparisons here.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Pretty sure the comparison was Psycho GI to Raster and not path tracing going by the comment accompanying it.

I think we need to talk about what Psycho GI does ok, it adds 1 bounces from the sun/moon light sources only. Not every light source in the game. It's why you guys are not seeing appreciable differences in some of the places your doing comparisons here.
you can select path tracing from the drop down.
 

yamaci17

Member
While I agree that Nixxes' ports havent been running all that well on equivalent AMD hardware, i think 2025 is too late. Nixxes is VERY productive. They managed to get Spiderman ported in 7 months. Miles in 3 months. Ratchet in 7 months, and are likely heads down porting Spiderman 2 as we speak. I think it will be 6 months max now that they pretty much know the engine and have the baseline engine ported to PC. With the spiderman ports, it was RT. With Ratchet, its the ssd streaming. Spiderman isnt doing anything truly new or innovative like ratchet so it should be a quick and dirty port. Sony had no problems porting TLOU to PC just six months after launch. They will do the same with spiderman 2 and get it ready before the fiscal year ends in march.

Remember, this is the only first party release all year. They will want it ported to PC asap to maximize revenue. Herman said 1-2 years for single player games, JImbo said 2 years. Nonsense.TLOU proves that they were just jerking us around. Nixxes will get this done fast then move on to wolverine.

I am thinking about waiting for spiderman 2 on PC. How did miles and ratchet run? If i can get dlss 4k quality running with RT on at 60 fps PS5 setinngs, i might wait for the PC version. Not gonna lie, the latest footage convinced me to give this a shot. i was hellbent on not buying it to make a statement lmao
it is not about time limitations though

it is about exclusivity bragging rights. if it releases for PC under 2 years, it will probably rile a lot of folks. 2 years is around the psyhological limit that most PS users can "bare".

tho we will see about that... if he says that he holds his promise? good for me.

again, I don't think games are being held back so that they can run well on lowend PCs. the sales they get on PC are dramatically small compared to sales they got on PS4/PS5.

if that was the case, they'd actually do work and get it working on PS4 too. why not? they made HFW work so they can bank on sweet PS4 user money.

at some point you gotta leave stuff behind.

designing a game that truly looks nextgen with CGI like quality would get them more sales on PS5 + would lead people to buy more PS5 units so they can experience this "new nextgen, CGI look" game. think about that. it has to be that Imsomniac simply cannot deliver that quality in in-game.

or that maybe they hold on to upgrading to CGI like cutscenes so that they can bank on "graphics karma appreciation" points for a later title, maybe like, Wolverine.

just some food for thought. I really don't buy into the theory of the game being held back for the potential PC port. PC ports generate so small money
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
it is not about time limitations though

it is about exclusivity bragging rights. if it releases for PC under 2 years, it will probably rile a lot of folks. 2 years is around the psyhological limit that most PS users can "bare".

tho we will see about that... if he says that he holds his promise? good for me.

again, I don't think games are being held back so that they can run well on lowend PCs. the sales they get on PC are dramatically small compared to sales they got on PS4/PS5.

if that was the case, they'd actually do work and get it working on PS4 too. why not? they made HFW work so they can bank on sweet PS4 user money.

at some point you gotta leave stuff behind.

designing a game that truly looks nextgen with CGI like quality would get them more sales on PS5 + would lead people to buy more PS5 units so they can experience this "new nextgen, CGI look" game. think about that. it has to be that Imsomniac simply cannot deliver that quality in in-game.

or that maybe they hold on to upgrading to CGI like cutscenes so that they can bank on "graphics karma appreciation" points for a later title, maybe like, Wolverine.

just some food for thought. I really don't buy into the theory of the game being held back for the potential PC port. PC ports generate so small money
Yeah, I disagreed with arkhamguy on that point. Blaming PC ports is easy and convenient. I think the bigger problem is lack of talent, lack of ambition and a focus on 60 fps at higher resolutions. We just saw both Avatar and Alan Wake 2, two next gen darlings in this thread, get 60 fps modes on consoles. Cyberpunk might be last gen but its still a stunning looking game on consoles at times, and it also has a 60 fps mode at 1080p. I think that resolution is fine for 60 fps. Its when we see 1440p 60 fps or in insomniac's case 1800p 60 fps in non RT modes where im like what are we doing wasting 75-100% of the GPU rendering 60 fps at higher resolutions.

That said, TLOU part 1 releasing on PC just six months after launch proves that they dont really care about staying true to their words. i guess we will find out soon enough if nixxes releases the port within the next 6-8 months becuase i dont see them taking longer than that. If they do wait 2 years then fine, maybe Jimbo does want those exclusive bragging rights, but we shall see. Maybe they are making Nixxes port some other game like GT7, but SSM already has a porting studio porting GOW and GG is doing the Horizon port themselves. Nixxes is likely heads down on SPiderman2 as we speak.
 
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Senua

Gold Member
it is not about time limitations though

it is about exclusivity bragging rights. if it releases for PC under 2 years, it will probably rile a lot of folks. 2 years is around the psyhological limit that most PS users can "bare".
Most PS users don't know or care if any of the games come to PC or not, it's only on enthusiast forums like these that people do
 

hlm666

Member
just some food for thought. I really don't buy into the theory of the game being held back for the potential PC port. PC ports generate so small money
I've got no idea how much money it makes them but I think some part of this is them trying to build an audience on the pc for when they start dropping gaas stuff day and date on both platforms so people will have played sony published pc games already and don't avoid the gaas releases in a screw you sony i'm not playing your gaas shit if you wont give us the good stuff aswell type mentality.
 

nemiroff

Gold Member
This Hardware unboxed comparison is excellent, one of the best path tracing comparison ive seen, and still made me laugh at the same time. It actually shows how little of a difference Psycho RT made 3 years ago for 50% less performance. Standard rasterization looks better here while Path Tracing obviously looks the best.

Still you gotta wonder why their GI system is illuminating the ceiling. What light source is even psycho RT is using to bounce off of the ceiling?? It seems to me that their lighting system is borked and they are using path tracing to render what shouldve been rendered correctly in the first place.

kYCHbjg.gif


I went back and pulled some pics of other games and they dont have the same issue with improper GI illuminating the ceiling and other objects that should remain in shadows.

The developer hinted in an interview (I don't recall where) some time ago that they had to leave in a lot of pieces of rasterization at the time they started experimenting (that's what both their implementation of RT and PT is afterall) simply because the game was so integrated with the old lighting philosophy. They have obviously been working piece by piece correcting more of it for PT, but not flawlessly so. Fully compatible RT and PT games really needs to be built from the ground up to shine, but that's not feasible right now because...you know.. the RTX4090 base isn't THAT big..
 

IDWhite

Member
So much bloaviating and ultimately wrong.

Every PC port has specs it runs on under the PS5‘s specs. Ratchet included.

Also I’d bet money SP2 will run fine on a 2060

They are limited by the sata SSD I/O operations, compression ratio and speed, latency, and data flow through all the system on PC. Not on CPU or GPU because the differences here are covered with brute force on high-end hardware. Thats why Ps5 is well optimized on GPU, CPU and controlled loading areas, but still underutilized to do much more per frame streaming data and better memory management.

No developer is going to tell you that publicly because they need to sell their game and no one likes to know their hardware is not working as well as possible.
 

PeteBull

Member
Looks like once again big visible downgrade vs bullshot trailer, this time confirmed by DF's John in Forza Motorsport hands-on vid, timestamped
Maybe it will be accesible in pc version, but from what we see not in console version, difference is clearly visible right away.
 
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nemiroff

Gold Member
Looks like once again big visible downgrade vs bullshot trailer, this time confirmed by DF's John in Forza Motorsport hands-on vid, timestamped
Maybe it will be accesible in pc version, but from what we see not in console version, difference is clearly visible right away.
I started the video from scratch and either way it looks about 1000x better than FM7. So happy Forza Motorsport has finally left most of the "gamey" feel behind. It's looks so much more grounded and contemporary, even on the XSX.

Can't wait for unlocked (well, relatively speaking..) GI/RT on PC. It's been a long time since I played a FM game, but this one seems to tick the boxes necessary to make me do it.
 
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Rheon

Member
Just started playing DS and boy, do people cherrypick when it comes to this game.

It looks good, but nowhere half as good consistently as I've seen in the gifs and screenshots in this thread.
 

yamaci17

Member


If you told me this was a PS4 game from 2015, I'd believe you. It looks fucking awful. Smaller scope and scale and this is what they pull off visually? On their biggest and most successful franchise?

Pathetic.

?

its a ps4 game from 2017 (ac origins)

its a ps4 game at its core. nothing less, nothing more. it will run on iphone 15 pro. it will have a 720p/40 fps locked performanceo on Steam Deck. heck, it will practically run on The Xbox One.
 

H . R . 2

Member
FARCRY 7 Rumours about a possible engine migration

Henderson also claimed that unlike past installments, which were developed on the Dunia engine,
Far Cry 7 is being developed on Massive Entertainment’s Snowdrop engine, which is used for the likes
of The Division, Mario + Rabbids, and upcoming titles like Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora, XDefiant, and Star Wars Outlaws.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
FARCRY 7 Rumours about a possible engine migration

Henderson also claimed that unlike past installments, which were developed on the Dunia engine,
Far Cry 7 is being developed on Massive Entertainment’s Snowdrop engine, which is used for the likes
of The Division, Mario + Rabbids, and upcoming titles like Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora, XDefiant, and Star Wars Outlaws.
Yeah, this was leaked before. Definitely a good idea. Dunia is now extremely dated. I was shocked by how poor FC6 looked.



If you told me this was a PS4 game from 2015, I'd believe you. It looks fucking awful. Smaller scope and scale and this is what they pull off visually? On their biggest and most successful franchise?

Pathetic.

This was DLC that Ubisoft spun up into a standalone game. It's $50 so they know its not a full fledged AC game.

That comes next year and will feature fully destructible environments according to leaks. So just wait for the first true ac game.
 
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But isn't the gpu already occupied rendering everything else and handling stuff like rtx and shit to take care of physics aswell?
Depends on the scene ofc. It's up to the developer how to best use the available resources. Just wanted to point out that there are several ways to go about this.
 

hussar16

Member


If you told me this was a PS4 game from 2015, I'd believe you. It looks fucking awful. Smaller scope and scale and this is what they pull off visually? On their biggest and most successful franchise?

Pathetic.

honestly this looks prettty good for a game tht is made for 2012 tech. weres stil using tech from 10 years ago because its all muliplats
 

Trilobit

Gold Member
the tech is there, the hardware is there; the only thing missing is vision, talent, and direction.
The Matrix Demo, which was developed by a group of 80 Hollywood experts and professional game developers, is a testament to the importance of cinematography in game design.
every time a game impresses with mindblowing visuals it is 9 out of 10 because of attention to at least some facets of cinematography (lighting, mise en scene, setting, stylistic and aesthetic choices, etc.)

By the way I have gone radio silent and just read comments now because nothing has impressed me since the Matrix Demo
so I have stopped wasting time defending minute, negligible improvements in recent games. I don't wish to delude myself into thinking that "the next-gen is here"
Stahp! I was so disappointed when I learned that they had pulled the demo from the PS Store. I was so eager to try it out and see what the hullabaloo was all about.
 

H . R . 2

Member
Yes, but do you really want that?
we did enjoy it back in the day and I even got a kick just watching that video of it that I posted earlier
we never get proper destruction, that's why that game has remained special
It's make-believe fireworks with no true interactivity.
you sound like you haven't played the game
otherwise, you would have known that BC2 had more interactivity in its destruction system than most 'interactive' games today
 
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zeroluck

Member
The most impressive thing about of cyberpunk with path tracing is driving in first person, you see the subtle lighting change in the car interior as you drive through town, sometime I just casually drive for 30 mins in game, who say graphics doesn't impact gameplay?
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Honestly, those screenshots are quite incredible.

But just to put it in perspective, here are some spiderman 2 comparisons.
QNX5lCX.jpg


FW5BSH9.jpg


dnooaWv.jpg

IcYEskg.jpg


dKISUns.jpg

peterparkernewface.jpg


Insomniac needs to throw this engine in the trash. And then set that trash on fire. And finally scatter the ashes in the Mississippi river. Then nuke Mississippi just to be sure.

If sony doesnt want to pay Epic the insane 12% cut they are asking for then go and make Decima the goto engine for ALL Sony studios. Do what EA did with Frostbite, but instead make it an engine that EVERYONE at sony can modify and improve. I loved what KojiPro did with the Decima engine. They were doing their own commits instead of simply borrowing the engine. they helped develop it. And looking at how beautiful the cimematics looked in HFW, it's obvious that GG benefitted from KojiPro's changes. I want ND, SSM, Insomniac, Sucker Punch and Bluepoint ALL working together to make Decima as good if not better than UE5. I want ND's motion matching, Insomniac's Ray traced reflections, GG's character models, Sucker Punch's foliage all in SSM's next game.

Use the PS5 geometry engine, primitive shaders, and all that IO to maximize its potential. Get something like Nanite in there. It is obvious that after three years, Sucker Punch and ND are not even close to showing their next game because of all the backend work needed to get each engine these so-called next gen features. No, have ONE engine so that when one team implements ray traced reflection or realtime GI or physics, everyone gets it automatically.

CD project has realized that despite having a great engine, the time needed to get these features in is time that couldve been spent on making the actual game. lets hope sony devs realize this.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Hmmm I wonder how the comparison's would look like if you didn't cherry pick the worst frames from the SM2 gameplay previews? Let's see:

sPPMTy1.jpg


MD1LRAC.jpg
sV3wKU6.jpg


K1CGfmp.jpg


qjMlT9i.jpg



xttrMwH.jpg
MJ looks great. Those other screenshots look last gen as fuck. How can you be ok with that kind of cutout 2d cardboard quality buildings??

And its not cherrypicking if its from a cherrypicked trailer by insomniac.
 
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Lethal01

Member
Honestly, those screenshots are quite incredible.

But just to put it in perspective, here are some spiderman 2 comparisons.
QNX5lCX.jpg


FW5BSH9.jpg


dnooaWv.jpg

IcYEskg.jpg


dKISUns.jpg

peterparkernewface.jpg


Insomniac needs to throw this engine in the trash. And then set that trash on fire. And finally scatter the ashes in the Mississippi river. Then nuke Mississippi just to be sure.

If sony doesnt want to pay Epic the insane 12% cut they are asking for then go and make Decima the goto engine for ALL Sony studios. Do what EA did with Frostbite, but instead make it an engine that EVERYONE at sony can modify and improve. I loved what KojiPro did with the Decima engine. They were doing their own commits instead of simply borrowing the engine. they helped develop it. And looking at how beautiful the cimematics looked in HFW, it's obvious that GG benefitted from KojiPro's changes. I want ND, SSM, Insomniac, Sucker Punch and Bluepoint ALL working together to make Decima as good if not better than UE5. I want ND's motion matching, Insomniac's Ray traced reflections, GG's character models, Sucker Punch's foliage all in SSM's next game.

Use the PS5 geometry engine, primitive shaders, and all that IO to maximize its potential. Get something like Nanite in there. It is obvious that after three years, Sucker Punch and ND are not even close to showing their next game because of all the backend work needed to get each engine these so-called next gen features. No, have ONE engine so that when one team implements ray traced reflection or realtime GI or physics, everyone gets it automatically.

CD project has realized that despite having a great engine, the time needed to get these features in is time that couldve been spent on making the actual game. lets hope sony devs realize this.

Are these shots taken from the PS5 version of Cyberpunk?
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Then it's extremely silly to compare it to Spiderman on PS5.
game with path tracing
eh. I thought we were just talking about how their path tracing is basically extra shadows that their base engine couldnt do at all times. I have posted countless comparisons of how little difference path tracing and ray tracing makes in this game. Even in non-RT modes, Cyberpunk looked better than miles in 2020 because of its fantastic city buildings and lighting that was way ahead of spiderman. Now 3 years later, on a next gen only game, insomniac has no excuse.

here are some non path tracing shots, with RT lighting and shadows turned off and only reflections on just like spiderman. Thats basically how im playing the game. The key difference is in lighting and asset quality of the buildings. they feel 3d.

F7FHaO3XgAAgZ6q


F7FHaO2WcAAfixI

F7FIJkZXsAAFMAI


I believe this one shot is with RTGI on medium because my fps is around 45, but i remember taking it because i wanted to show off how little of a difference it made compared to no-RT.

F7FHaO2WwAAJAHN
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
This is how little of a difference path tracing makes btw in most outdoor shots. It simply corrects the flaws of their lighting model. Doesnt really make turn it into a completely different one. And it definitely doesnt add anything to their building models. With spiderman now on PC, and 2 likely coming to pc soon, of course they should be compared.

F7FI83oXgAAsHIk

F7FIJjoW0AAWD2K
 
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