petran79
Banned
EU is not Commonwealth though...
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Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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EU is not Commonwealth though...
Spain, Italy or Ireland had similar meassures and they are doing fine now.
Imho it is better to "suffer" for 2 or 3 years and fix all your problems than trying to hide them for the next 30 years.
Yup there would be Chaos in Canada if this occurred over here. I can't even imagine half or more of my wages gone. I'd be out cracking heads I think. So I commend the Greeks on the relatively self restraint that they have shown so far. But I suppose one reason is because it's been a long haul already and people's energies are spent?
Schulz:
- We're waiting for Greece's new proposals.
- I respect the result of the referendum.
- Greece didn't gain a better hand.
- We can't ignore the opinion of the Greek population.
- Greece has to initiate new negotiations.
- Even Tsipras and his people have to get serious at some point.
- Government failed to inform their people, but we can't torture the people for their politicians.
- We're waiting for Greece's new proposals.
- I respect the result of the referendum.
- Greece didn't gain a better hand.
- We can't ignore the opinion of the Greek population.
- Greece has to initiate new negotiations.
- Even Tsipras and his people have to get serious at some point.
- Government failed to inform their people, but we can't torture the people for their politicians.
LoveCake
Member
The thing is the EU & the politicians say that being part of the EU is all about democracy, well the people have spoken.
The real people to blame are the people that were running Greece when it entered the Euro, they simply went on a borrowing spree knowing (thinking) the EU/ECB would back them up, but because there is no complete & fully integrated fiscal union (which should have come before the introduction of a single currency) the borrowing Greece accrued was their debts, the Greek politicians went on a spree & used the taxpayers as collateral, the Greek politicians need to & should be held to account.
What the citizens of Greece have decided is that they have had enough, you can only push people so far, the EU/ECB have done nothing to help, other than lend/borrow them more money, the last payment was going to be used to pay the next instalment, they were between a rock & a hard place.
I would have voted no myself.
The real people to blame are the people that were running Greece when it entered the Euro, they simply went on a borrowing spree knowing (thinking) the EU/ECB would back them up, but because there is no complete & fully integrated fiscal union (which should have come before the introduction of a single currency) the borrowing Greece accrued was their debts, the Greek politicians went on a spree & used the taxpayers as collateral, the Greek politicians need to & should be held to account.
What the citizens of Greece have decided is that they have had enough, you can only push people so far, the EU/ECB have done nothing to help, other than lend/borrow them more money, the last payment was going to be used to pay the next instalment, they were between a rock & a hard place.
I would have voted no myself.
Blame the French for giving a bad example?
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Where did the remaining 47.4 bln € go?Basically this:
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I've heard that the BoG would have ran out of cash by tomorrow...
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You know, if the Greeks say 'suck it!', the remaining EU countries could also say 'so be it' and don't spend another Euro for Greece.
That's a very dangerous game, that's certainly not worth playing.
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By using a foreign currency?
It's not like it doesn't happen in many countries...
Negotiator
Member
Funny and despicable at the same time:
alexandros
Banned
You should maybe offer a translation for those who don't speak greek 
It's certainly been a long, hard and stressful five years. The worst thing is, for many people there is no end in sight for the misery they suffer.
It's certainly been a long, hard and stressful five years. The worst thing is, for many people there is no end in sight for the misery they suffer.
Funny and despicable at the same time:
Just in case you needed confirmation that the Greek media is blatantly corrupt.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Samaras has just resigned.
English translation?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
http://www.theguardian.com/business...sis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed
Does that look like 2 years to you?
having your own currency is pretty rad. right now they and other euro countries are effectively on a gold standard, which everyone but Germany and Ron Paul agrees isn't such a great thing.
In any case, all things being equal, having your own currency is better than not.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You should maybe offer a translation for those who don't speak greek
My Greek is atrocious, but it's something like "Is it our problem all social groups are YES", right?
I did Ancient Greek at school. That and a combination of visitng Cyprus infrequently are my entire knowledge of Greek.
Negotiator
Member
OK, here's the translation:
"Is it our fault that most social groups are in favour of Yes?"
Maria Sarafoglou 2/7/2015, Athens, MEGA
"Is it our fault that most social groups are in favour of Yes?"
Maria Sarafoglou 2/7/2015, Athens, MEGA
Needs to be reposted again and again.BBC's Chris Morris in Athens
Posted at 17:58
"Almost any economist looks at Greek debt and thinks no way can this country return to growth with such a high level of debt"
True:
Theonik
Member
And now Tsipras. It is time to sue those clowns into oblivion.
It worked even better in context.
The thing is the EU & the politicians say that being part of the EU is all about democracy, well the people have spoken.
The real people to blame are the people that were running Greece when it entered the Euro, they simply went on a borrowing spree knowing (thinking) the EU/ECB would back them up, but because there is no complete & fully integrated fiscal union (which should have come before the introduction of a single currency) the borrowing Greece accrued was their debts, the Greek politicians went on a spree & used the taxpayers as collateral, the Greek politicians need to & should be held to account.
What the citizens of Greece have decided is that they have had enough, you can only push people so far, the EU/ECB have done nothing to help, other than lend/borrow them more money, the last payment was going to be used to pay the next instalment, they were between a rock & a hard place.
I would have voted no myself.
Sure the debt could be written off once Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Belgium, and the UK get behind it.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
They don't have to, Greece can and will most certainly default.
Theonik
Member
Unless the creditors cut the debt. Or they could lend Greece money to pay their short term debt again so they can have this discussion again in a couple of years and we can talk about lazy Greeks and failures to reform. (lol)
My country, Austria, get behind this?
Our right-wing and center basically go "The greek people have lived a life of joy and overspending, knowing no hard work and much laziness. Now it's time to pay the price."
It's especially disgusting coming from the right whose big icon Jörg Haider has manged to secrectly amass a debt of $20bn in a single bank, the Hype Kärnten, in Corinthia state, a state of 500k people.
By giving a bit to the people and a lot to friends.
Gogo Greece, my heart is with you common people. Let's see what you will do, the world is watching. Could be glory, could be fuck up.
You have watched too many movies.
And they are right with the overspending. Figures were posted earlier in this thread. Here is also an article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ending-defence-wages-taxation-economic-crisis
My words exactly!
Member
haha
Yep here it is
Also take the following with a grain of salt:
http://www.altsantiri.gr/politika/dierrefse-to-simioma-stratigikis-tis-nd-gia-na-petichoun-to-ne-apodiknii-oti-stinoun-dimoskopisis/
here's an allegedly leaked ND stategy plan intended to direct its members on what to say on media and how to frame Syriza for the banks closing. Refer to the referrendum as if the question asked is yes or no to euro and yes or no to Greece's staying in the eurozone. Also, specifically target women voters, pensioners, farmers and former Pasok voters that went to Syriza (that's your 30% that was talked above). Cook the polls to show that yes acceptancy is rising ("has a momentum" is the exact phrase) and bring it to 5-10% above no on the final polls. Lastly, use media personnas or showbiz citizens that are pro YES and let them get the spotlight instead of pro YES politicians (even they themselves know they are not trusted anymore and enrage the average greek citizen).
Btw SAMAR-EXIT! ND is entering a "civil war" and Mpakogianni is most likely to go for ND presidency. That didn't take long. After failing to attack the sheep, the wolves are out for each other's neck now.
The euro and the EU are two different things. Greece can't just magically print euros by itself and if it doesn't have a source of euros (due to no transfers, trade imbalance, etc.) it will run out of money in short order. Once the country has no source of funds it is effectively "out of the euro" as it will have to print it s own currency.
Well that wouldn't work for most people, people need paper cash for a long time if Greece goes electronic.
Tsipras should bring a dog to Brussels.
Why do people in Greece need paper cash? Greece is a tiny country by population.
The small size would make it relatively easy to implement compared to larger countries with larger populations.
If Greece doesn't have money, you wouldn't want it to be able to print euro coins or dollars. Otherwise, it could just make what it needs (something it will be able to do if it switches to the drachma).
If Greece switches to the drachma, foreign tourism will go up.
Right now, visiting Greece is expensive for the average American. With a devalued drachma, Greek holidays would be a lot more affordable. Similar things would be true for countries around the world.
Maybe America could buy an island or two and install a military base. That should bring in a few billion.
Except it wasn't a precedent set by the Greeks. Germany was telling Greece to hold a referendum a month prior. The Greek government didn't want to hold one.
Gemüsepizza;170973107 said:
If the EU wants to keep Greece in the euro at all costs, then Greece has won.
If the EU doesn't care if Greece stays in the euro or switches to another currency, then Greece has lost.
Either way, there are a number of countries in the EU that don't use the euro. Greece wouldn't be the first to be an EU member with a different currency.
If I'm reading that image right, it's actually kind of a low turnout.
Greece has ~11.03 million citizens.
Only ~2.146 million registered to vote (19.46% of the population registered).
If only 57.88% of those registered actually voted, that means only 1.242 million (2.146 x .5788) people voted, or 11.26% of the country bothered to cast a ballot.
Not really. If Greece wants to hold the hard line, default is probably the most likely.
Tourism can be a money maker if you are attractive enough. And lower prices due to a currency switch would mean an upswing in tourism in the short term.
The money was given directly to Greece. That Greece spent much of it paying for loans that Greece took out in prior years, doesn't mean that the money didn't go to Greece.
It is interesting from an American perspective, since you won't see governments taking an official stand on elections. Individual people can make endorsements, but that's a different thing. The actual government is always neutral and doesn't push for an outcome.
Media also has to give equal time.
Britain's just thinking "thank god we stayed on sterling!"
Greece is still relatively well off compared to some of its neighbors. That conflict in interest can't be ignored, otherwise you start turning it into a question of "why give it to them, when you should give it to us?"
Europe isn't going to invade, but the loans would be cut off. No financing makes it difficult to run a country.
It probably won't impact the euro much. What will be more interest is to see what happens to any new Greek currency should Greece decide to move off the euro and onto its own.
If there is a Grexit from the euro and onto a new currency, the US won't notice it aside from Greek imports being cheaper (go olive oil) and vacation dollars in Greece going farther.
Puerto Rico is a different case since it's not a sovereign country, but rather a US territory. It has to use the dollar, but it also has the US Federal government as a backstop.
If the EU were an actual country (more like a USofE) versus just a loose union, Greece could have relied on similar backstops. But the frameworks are different and as a result the two situations are also very different.
At least on this site, home prices in Athens seem to be doing well. It's not like we're talking Detroit level pricing.
http://www.homegreekhome.com/en/search/results/residential/sale/r102/m102m?ref=homepageMapSearchSR
Whatever Greece does, doing it sooner rather than later will be best for all.
Explain.
Well if Greece is kicked out then if the people think things are bad now it's going to get a lot worse and very quickly as well. In the long run it may work out for them but in the short term no one is going to lend them money. You would have to be mad to do so. There's also the myriad structural problems in the Greek economy and some crazy tax laws which just don't work. It all combines to make Greece's economy one that just isn't competitive.
The problem with everything in this situation is that there was no good result. No is bad and Yes was bad. This whole thing could and should have been sorted 5 years ago but dithering and inflexibility on both sides means that Greece will suffer far more than it has done in the past 5 years.
As for the Euro well it'll be fine in the long term. It may have some short term instability but investors may few a greek removal as a very good thing. The other economies that were in trouble 5 years ago have managed to make a small come back and may continue to do so. If they do then I see nothing to worry investors.
If investors are spooked in the short term then they will turn to America or the UK as both are stable and, especially in the case of the UK, trade well with the eurozone. Once things are settled then confidence in the euro will return.
The problem with everything in this situation is that there was no good result. No is bad and Yes was bad. This whole thing could and should have been sorted 5 years ago but dithering and inflexibility on both sides means that Greece will suffer far more than it has done in the past 5 years.
As for the Euro well it'll be fine in the long term. It may have some short term instability but investors may few a greek removal as a very good thing. The other economies that were in trouble 5 years ago have managed to make a small come back and may continue to do so. If they do then I see nothing to worry investors.
If investors are spooked in the short term then they will turn to America or the UK as both are stable and, especially in the case of the UK, trade well with the eurozone. Once things are settled then confidence in the euro will return.
My words exactly!
Member
Not true. Sure he was a dictator, but he had been preparing ther greek army for months. After Italian subs took down greek warship "Elli", he knew the nazi would come-a-knocking sooner or later and silently prepared for war.
He also heavily fortified Macedonian front, much more efficient than the French Mazino line, the Germans could not get through, they had to go via Yugoslavia to encircle the greek army after italians failed for months to make advances and had in fact retreated deep into albanial soil. Look it up, Roupel fort, Metaxas Line etc..
And keep in mind, the line was unfinished, thats why they were encircled.
Even Nazis who suffered heavy losses, saluted greek soldiers on the line.
What new jobs? Only the "voucher" subsidised 5-month work for 450€ is recruiting here. Public sector has been downsizing like crazy rendering crucial services like health services inefficient (imho in other areas it was extremely justified though, like OTE etc)
Geopolitical reasons, oil, minerals, agriculture...
whoa
Banks have been speculating with public debts to capitalize themselves over many years. I dont even want to talk about the criminal activities going in them , which here in PT we have two major cases ending up only to citizens (by bail out or straight up losses) suffering immensly. All this while fucking Merkel , Schuble and the rest of Eurogroup preach austerity , poverty and degrading basic conditions of human nature.
Also my post was not about any bank situation. Greece has a primary primary balance of 2.1 %GDP. Better only Portugal and Germany . Imagine that !!!!! Two of the countries suffering the most , have already lost 20-25% of wealth and still being drowned over austerity , are the ones who actually have the best public primary balance. They have been loan-sharked with unreal interest rates which makes the country impossible to pay their debts.
Accept the situation. Renegotiate payment deadlines and let human dignity take its natural course. Just like Germany was allowed after monstrously destroying Europe in ww2 , lose everything and was able to get back on its feet with a huge plan that allowed themselves to recover their own economy while only paying their debts when the economy itself allowed.
Indeed, people seem to forget that if greece didn's have to pay enormous loans they would actually have a big surplus. A 23% VAT (amongst the highest globally) will do that to you, despite the tax evasion.
Well how about 1 in 3 greeks living under poverty? Hospitals running out of consumables being a common sight nowadays, or cases of children in school fainting from hunger (government plans to enforce mess), about 15.000 suicides in the last 5 years due to financial deadnds, unemployment at a historic high, minimum wage down at least 30% etc.
Well make no mistake, people who have it good are always the people who complain the most, they are conformists, "soft" imho. Here, i know many many cases (mostly pensioners and early retired ones at that) with no debt, financial autonomy that still complain that their pension is down, or that they cannot keep their 2-3 houses and 3 cars, ignoring that ~2 million are objectively poor without basic goods or even roof in many cases.
SpoonyBard
Banned
If Greece is bailed out by the center banks just printing money, does that have any negative impacts in real economy? It devalues the euro of course, but that's not a bad thing necessarily for the average working person (maybe for the German banks, I don't know). China and US have devalued their currencies, and it hasn't affected them negatively.
Theonik
Member
I'd say it's good for German exports for starters. Bad for people who like Videogames. (and other things that are usually imported)
It depends, Sony for instance prints their discs in Austria. Doesn't really make sense to ship such stuff from China to the rest of the world.
Theonik
Member
Yes, but they still expect importing their revenues in other currencies.
petran79
Banned
Metaxas also provided the Democratic Army with weapons during the Spanish Civil War, while suppressing the Communists in Greece....Go figure....
I find it odd that in today's system of capitalism countries do everything they can to save lenders. People have convinced themselves that borrowers are evil people preying on unsuspecting lenders.
You would think that a lender who is in control of the money would use their massive resources to assess the risk of a borrower.
These days we attack borrowers as part of some moral righteousness of paying one's debts. Attacking a borrower serves no purpose. A bad borrower has no money which is why they need a loan in the first place.
Saving French and German banks is sending a message that banks can be incompetent on their. A competent bank would not have loan the Greeks money.
You would think that a lender who is in control of the money would use their massive resources to assess the risk of a borrower.
These days we attack borrowers as part of some moral righteousness of paying one's debts. Attacking a borrower serves no purpose. A bad borrower has no money which is why they need a loan in the first place.
Saving French and German banks is sending a message that banks can be incompetent on their. A competent bank would not have loan the Greeks money.
Theonik
Member
It's because we do need the banks. But I don't see why the bankers needed to be saved with the banks. The whole situation was handled terribly by both sides.
benjipwns
Banned
Because toxic finance elites and the political elites live in a bubble where they assume their reality is all reality.
The Blackberry Panic was the perfect example.
Jeff Immelt was the epitome. He pushed banks and their enablers, the governments, hard to shore up GE's toxic holdings because otherwise he was going to lose his bonus that year. (He eventually had to waive accepting it because of how bad it looked.)
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