petran79
Banned
The EU will be fine if Greece leaves. It's not as system relevant as it was a few years ago.
EU is not Commonwealth though...
The EU will be fine if Greece leaves. It's not as system relevant as it was a few years ago.
That's a very biased interpretation of the FMI meassures and the austerity programs that was chooking Greece people lives for the past years and threaten them to choke them for the rest of their lives with no solution and possibility to pay the loans.
Most people have had to face at least 50-60% of income decrease, either through wage cuts or tax hikes. Those are still considered the lucky ones because they still have jobs. Income reduction, Mass unemployment and the near total collapse of the public health and wellfare system has resulted in a dramatic drop in living standards.
Blame the French for giving a bad example?Well, hopefully they finally kick Greece out after they manipulated numbers to get in in the first place.
Where did the remaining 47.4 bln € go?Basically this:
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I've heard that the BoG would have ran out of cash by tomorrow...Fuck, this is depressing for the Greek people. It can be another week with banks closed.
You know, if the Greeks say 'suck it!', the remaining EU countries could also say 'so be it' and don't spend another Euro for Greece.Yep, and Greece always has the option of saying "we're not paying you a dime back of the debt we owe ever since we just declared it null and void".
It's not like Europe is going to invade them to get their money back.
By using a foreign currency?How do I avoid paying taxes if I charge you for a service or product if the currency is electronic?
Yup there would be Chaos in Canada if this occurred over here. I can't even imagine half or more of my wages gone. I'd be out cracking heads I think. So I commend the Greeks on the relatively self restraint that they have shown so far. But I suppose one reason is because it's been a long haul already and people's energies are spent?
Funny and despicable at the same time:
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Just in case you needed confirmation that the Greek media is blatantly corrupt.
Spain, Italy or Ireland had similar meassures and they are doing fine now.
Imho it is better to "suffer" for 2 or 3 years and fix all your problems than trying to hide them for the next 30 years.
The documents show that the IMFs baseline estimate the most likely outcome is that Greeces debt would still be 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to the package of tax and spending reforms demanded. That is well above the 110% the IMF regards as sustainable given Greeces debt profile, a level set in 2012. The countrys debt level is currently 175% and likely to go higher because of its recent slide back into recession.
is that Greeces debt would still be 118% of GDP in 2030
But how is Greece supposed to prosper if it leaves? It's still not exporting anything, the government is still bloated and corrupt and people won't suddenly start paying taxes. The EU doesn't have to make Greece suffer, Greece will be quite capable of doing that on its own.
You should maybe offer a translation for those who don't speak greek![]()
Needs to be reposted again and again.BBC's Chris Morris in Athens
Posted at 17:58
"Almost any economist looks at Greek debt and thinks no way can this country return to growth with such a high level of debt"
True:
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And now Tsipras. It is time to sue those clowns into oblivion.Funny and despicable at the same time:
https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=3782f31c9ffb014b7a467e7d85fe5c8f&oe=561EB12F
It worked even better in context.OK, here's the translation:
"Is it our fault that most social groups are in favour of Yes?"
Maria Sarafoglou 2/7/2015, Athens, MEGA
The thing is the EU & the politicians say that being part of the EU is all about democracy, well the people have spoken.
The real people to blame are the people that were running Greece when it entered the Euro, they simply went on a borrowing spree knowing (thinking) the EU/ECB would back them up, but because there is no complete & fully integrated fiscal union (which should have come before the introduction of a single currency) the borrowing Greece accrued was their debts, the Greek politicians went on a spree & used the taxpayers as collateral, the Greek politicians need to & should be held to account.
What the citizens of Greece have decided is that they have had enough, you can only push people so far, the EU/ECB have done nothing to help, other than lend/borrow them more money, the last payment was going to be used to pay the next instalment, they were between a rock & a hard place.
I would have voted no myself.
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Sure the debt could be written off once Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Belgium, and the UK get behind it.
Unless the creditors cut the debt. Or they could lend Greece money to pay their short term debt again so they can have this discussion again in a couple of years and we can talk about lazy Greeks and failures to reform. (lol)They don't have to, Greece can and will most certainly default.
My country, Austria, get behind this?Sure the debt could be written off once Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Belgium, and the UK get behind it.
You have watched too many movies.My country, Austria, get behind this?
Our right-wing and center basically go "The greek people have lived a life of joy and overspending, knowing no hard work and much laziness. Now it's time to pay the price."
It's especially disgusting coming from the right whose big icon Jörg Haider has manged to secrectly amass a debt of $20bn in a single bank, the Hype Kärnten, in Corinthia state, a state of 500k people.
By giving a bit to the people and a lot to friends.
Gogo Greece, my heart is with you common people. Let's see what you will do, the world is watching. Could be glory, could be fuck up.
haha61-39 just announced.
Nice polls morons.
Two or three days ago there was a "leak" of a document where it showed how some of the media/tv companies planned to cook up polls, to support the Yes option. It was linked in this thread.
Of course you never know if the documents were legit or a fake.
But now, it may be the case the docs were in fact legit and the poll numbers were manipulated...
Also take the following with a grain of salt:
http://www.altsantiri.gr/politika/dierrefse-to-simioma-stratigikis-tis-nd-gia-na-petichoun-to-ne-apodiknii-oti-stinoun-dimoskopisis/
here's an allegedly leaked ND stategy plan intended to direct its members on what to say on media and how to frame Syriza for the banks closing. Refer to the referrendum as if the question asked is yes or no to euro and yes or no to Greece's staying in the eurozone. Also, specifically target women voters, pensioners, farmers and former Pasok voters that went to Syriza (that's your 30% that was talked above). Cook the polls to show that yes acceptancy is rising ("has a momentum" is the exact phrase) and bring it to 5-10% above no on the final polls. Lastly, use media personnas or showbiz citizens that are pro YES and let them get the spotlight instead of pro YES politicians (even they themselves know they are not trusted anymore and enrage the average greek citizen).
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They aren't out of the Euro, lol. They cannot kick a country out just because it's in a financial mess, it would basically spell the end of the union. So Greece is only out of the EU if they want to leave, and chances are they stay but with their own money, or take a bad deal with a new crap corrupted government (one that likely won't even be elected anyway).
Well that wouldn't work for most people, people need paper cash for a long time if Greece goes electronic.
Tsipras should bring a dog to Brussels.
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http://www.iefimerida.gr/news/17044...ρώ-κλείνει-το-εργοστάσιο-στην-ηπειρο-που-τα-κ
http://www.news4people.gr/index.php...πειρο-ο-ήσυχος-πήγε-εκεί-που-κόβονται-τα-ευρώ
TL;DR: Troika (what a surprise!) wanted to close down the factory that produced greek euro coins. I'm not sure if it's still operating.
Greedy business men will only see cheap investment, they work like clockwork pouring money into Greece given the devalued coin, Argentina went through the same process growing at staggering rate every year.
Nice scaremongering, man.
Greece is doing what should have done 5 years ago.
Who knows, maybe Uncle Sam could help Greece to tie its new currency with the USD? Greece has a huge geopolitical importance, regardless of its economy.
What is really great for all of the EU is that a precedent has been set; people have been asked for vote on an important issue that would have otherwise been forced on them. So if things come to this in Italy or Spain or Portugal, at least there will be no "offended virgins" acting on the part of the Troika if a referendum is called when they keep making destructive proposals.
Setting a precedent was the most important thing Greece could do, regardless of the outcome for Greece specifically. That is a victory on its own, and many throughout Europe will be thankful to Greece when they are faced with similar demands in the future.
Gemüsepizza;170973107 said:You seem to be convinced that the EU will kick Greece out now, and that they will lose the Euro as a currency. After all that's what many "experts" and politicians said in the last few days, right?
But what if the EU doesn't want to do this? And what if the Greek government knows that? Then a "No" vote would strengthen their position in coming negotiations. I still believe that they won't leave the EU anytime soon.
lol, I would probably get a negative result, as in -X%.
edit: For those wondering what's next, obviously the Debt Cut is now on the table, thanks to the IMF report + No vote.
Russia should normally swim in money with all the resources they have.
While Greece has only tourism and cement.
As long as it is clear that said hundreds of billions were not poured into the greek economy or used to help those who were suffering. They were used to pay out external loans and effectively bail out banks and other private creditors. It is a big help, no doubt, but let's not present it as if all that money was given directly to Greece.
You mean like all these refererendums in Europe where people were choosing to accept the Euro or not, and the local goverments were actively pushing for a "Yes".
Ah! I get it!, Double standards, don't worry is common practice in the core of the EU these days.
I fear for how Britain views this more than what Greece does. With a referendum in two years, Britain pulling out would be a far bigger blow to the global economy than this.
Indeed, countries like Latvia, Slovakia, Estonia are also in the Euro and a lot poorer then Greece. Can't really blame them if they don't want to have their citizens pay the debt of what is still a rich country compared to them.
Yep, and Greece always has the option of saying "we're not paying you a dime back of the debt we owe ever since we just declared it null and void".
It's not like Europe is going to invade them to get their money back.
What kind of effect will this have on the Euro? I'm Canadian, so the Euro is currently trading at 1.38 cdn for every Euro. Could this drop substantially ?
Watching all of this unfold from over here in the US, I'm really amazed at how powerful Germany has become.
Also a bit concerned about what a Grexit will mean for the US/global economy.
I think the US economy has Puerto Rico to worry about, although possibly not as much Europe is worrying about Greece.
So Greece is going to default? I hope everyone have prepared themselves, it's going to get even tougher for the next year or two, but after that it'll probably get better, and with a cheaper currency, Greece' Tourism will hopefully bloom once again. Depending how competent the Government is.
I doubt it'll be a happy ending, like it was for Iceland.
How much has the house market dropped in athens? Whats the sqm price now vs before at its highest?
They don't have to, Greece can and will most certainly default.
Explain.You have watched too many movies.
And they are right with the overspending. Figures were posted earlier in this thread. Here is also an article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ending-defence-wages-taxation-economic-crisis
Metaxas never said "oxi", it is a myth. This is really the first true "oxi".
Go on. But don't quote Varoufakis and his 90% of the money went to european banks.
Yes some money went back to the actual loaners (I know it's shocking that they want their money back). But a lot of money went into creating new jobs in the government and also raising government employees wages.
Geopolitical reasons, oil, minerals, agriculture...Russia should normally swim in money with all the resources they have.
While Greece has only tourism and cement.
whoaGood night, Greece. Dark times ahead of you.
Tsipras and the left government lied to the people, he said they'd get money without change. We have to act calmly.
The left blackmailers and liars like Tsipras can't get away with this.
Banks have been speculating with public debts to capitalize themselves over many years. I dont even want to talk about the criminal activities going in them , which here in PT we have two major cases ending up only to citizens (by bail out or straight up losses) suffering immensly. All this while fucking Merkel , Schuble and the rest of Eurogroup preach austerity , poverty and degrading basic conditions of human nature.
Also my post was not about any bank situation. Greece has a primary primary balance of 2.1 %GDP. Better only Portugal and Germany . Imagine that !!!!! Two of the countries suffering the most , have already lost 20-25% of wealth and still being drowned over austerity , are the ones who actually have the best public primary balance. They have been loan-sharked with unreal interest rates which makes the country impossible to pay their debts.
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Accept the situation. Renegotiate payment deadlines and let human dignity take its natural course. Just like Germany was allowed after monstrously destroying Europe in ww2 , lose everything and was able to get back on its feet with a huge plan that allowed themselves to recover their own economy while only paying their debts when the economy itself allowed.
Is there any Greeks in this thread or people who are aware/seen what has been happening on the ground. I'm curious what the overall living standards are now compared to 5-6 years ago. Before the shit hit the fan. How much have wages decrease? What benefits have they lost or have declined (retirement age increased? Less Welfare, Less full time jobs?) Have the price of goods increase? and so on.
I know that if Canadians took a substantial hit to their living standards I don't think we'd cope because we've had it good for too long. I'm surrounded by people who live and die by their materialism, houses, cars and so forth. Have the Greeks made the adjustments as well as possible?
I'd say it's good for German exports for starters. Bad for people who like Videogames. (and other things that are usually imported)If Greece is bailed out by the center banks just printing money, does that have any negative impacts in real economy? It devalues the euro of course, but that's not a bad thing necessarily for the average working person (maybe for the German banks, I don't know). China and US have devalued their currencies, and it hasn't affected them negatively.
It depends, Sony for instance prints their discs in Austria. Doesn't really make sense to ship such stuff from China to the rest of the world.I'd say it's good for German exports for starters. Bad for people who like Videogames. (and other things that are usually imported)
Yes, but they still expect importing their revenues in other currencies.It depends, Sony for instance prints their discs in Austria.
Not true. Sure he was a dictator, but he had been preparing ther greek army for months.
It's because we do need the banks. But I don't see why the bankers needed to be saved with the banks. The whole situation was handled terribly by both sides.I find it odd that in today's system of capitalism countries do everything they can to save lenders. People have convinced themselves that borrowers are evil people preying on unsuspecting lenders.
You would think that a lender who is in control of the money would use their massive resources to assess the risk of a borrower.
These days we attack borrowers as part of some moral righteousness of paying one's debts. Attacking a borrower serves no purpose. A bad borrower has no money which is why they need a loan in the first place.
Saving French and German banks is sending a message that banks can be incompetent on their. A competent bank would not have loan the Greeks money.
Because toxic finance elites and the political elites live in a bubble where they assume their reality is all reality.It's because we do need the banks. But I don't see why the bankers needed to be saved with the banks. The whole situation was handled terribly by both sides.