• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July

Status
Not open for further replies.

EloKa

Member
That's a very biased interpretation of the FMI meassures and the austerity programs that was chooking Greece people lives for the past years and threaten them to choke them for the rest of their lives with no solution and possibility to pay the loans.

Spain, Italy or Ireland had similar meassures and they are doing fine now.
Imho it is better to "suffer" for 2 or 3 years and fix all your problems than trying to hide them for the next 30 years.
 

Mrmartel

Banned
Most people have had to face at least 50-60% of income decrease, either through wage cuts or tax hikes. Those are still considered the lucky ones because they still have jobs. Income reduction, Mass unemployment and the near total collapse of the public health and wellfare system has resulted in a dramatic drop in living standards.

Yup there would be Chaos in Canada if this occurred over here. I can't even imagine half or more of my wages gone. I'd be out cracking heads I think. So I commend the Greeks on the relatively self restraint that they have shown so far. But I suppose one reason is because it's been a long haul already and people's energies are spent?
 

oti

Banned
Schulz:

- We're waiting for Greece's new proposals.
- I respect the result of the referendum.
- Greece didn't gain a better hand.
- We can't ignore the opinion of the Greek population.
- Greece has to initiate new negotiations.
- Even Tsipras and his people have to get serious at some point.
- Government failed to inform their people, but we can't torture the people for their politicians.
 

LoveCake

Member
The thing is the EU & the politicians say that being part of the EU is all about democracy, well the people have spoken.

The real people to blame are the people that were running Greece when it entered the Euro, they simply went on a borrowing spree knowing (thinking) the EU/ECB would back them up, but because there is no complete & fully integrated fiscal union (which should have come before the introduction of a single currency) the borrowing Greece accrued was their debts, the Greek politicians went on a spree & used the taxpayers as collateral, the Greek politicians need to & should be held to account.

What the citizens of Greece have decided is that they have had enough, you can only push people so far, the EU/ECB have done nothing to help, other than lend/borrow them more money, the last payment was going to be used to pay the next instalment, they were between a rock & a hard place.

I would have voted no myself.

WjGfcde.gif
 

oti

Banned
Gellinek:

- New EU meeting Tuesday evening.
- Two solutions: Either pull the plug and that's it or Tsipras will accept reforms for another program.
 

le-seb

Member
Well, hopefully they finally kick Greece out after they manipulated numbers to get in in the first place.
Blame the French for giving a bad example?
___
Basically this:

csm_greek_bailout_banks_people_url_01_37a757ef95.jpg
Where did the remaining 47.4 bln € go?
___
Fuck, this is depressing for the Greek people. It can be another week with banks closed.
I've heard that the BoG would have ran out of cash by tomorrow...
___
Yep, and Greece always has the option of saying "we're not paying you a dime back of the debt we owe ever since we just declared it null and void".

It's not like Europe is going to invade them to get their money back.
You know, if the Greeks say 'suck it!', the remaining EU countries could also say 'so be it' and don't spend another Euro for Greece.
That's a very dangerous game, that's certainly not worth playing.
___
How do I avoid paying taxes if I charge you for a service or product if the currency is electronic?
By using a foreign currency?
It's not like it doesn't happen in many countries...
 
You should maybe offer a translation for those who don't speak greek :D

Yup there would be Chaos in Canada if this occurred over here. I can't even imagine half or more of my wages gone. I'd be out cracking heads I think. So I commend the Greeks on the relatively self restraint that they have shown so far. But I suppose one reason is because it's been a long haul already and people's energies are spent?

It's certainly been a long, hard and stressful five years. The worst thing is, for many people there is no end in sight for the misery they suffer.
 
Spain, Italy or Ireland had similar meassures and they are doing fine now.
Imho it is better to "suffer" for 2 or 3 years and fix all your problems than trying to hide them for the next 30 years.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...sis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed

The documents show that the IMF’s baseline estimate – the most likely outcome – is that Greece’s debt would still be 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to the package of tax and spending reforms demanded. That is well above the 110% the IMF regards as sustainable given Greece’s debt profile, a level set in 2012. The country’s debt level is currently 175% and likely to go higher because of its recent slide back into recession.

is that Greece’s debt would still be 118% of GDP in 2030

Does that look like 2 years to you?
 

zou

Member
But how is Greece supposed to prosper if it leaves? It's still not exporting anything, the government is still bloated and corrupt and people won't suddenly start paying taxes. The EU doesn't have to make Greece suffer, Greece will be quite capable of doing that on its own.

having your own currency is pretty rad. right now they and other euro countries are effectively on a gold standard, which everyone but Germany and Ron Paul agrees isn't such a great thing.

In any case, all things being equal, having your own currency is better than not.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
You should maybe offer a translation for those who don't speak greek :D

My Greek is atrocious, but it's something like "Is it our problem all social groups are YES", right?

I did Ancient Greek at school. That and a combination of visitng Cyprus infrequently are my entire knowledge of Greek.
 
OK, here's the translation:

"Is it our fault that most social groups are in favour of Yes?"

Maria Sarafoglou 2/7/2015, Athens, MEGA
 

norinrad

Member
The thing is the EU & the politicians say that being part of the EU is all about democracy, well the people have spoken.

The real people to blame are the people that were running Greece when it entered the Euro, they simply went on a borrowing spree knowing (thinking) the EU/ECB would back them up, but because there is no complete & fully integrated fiscal union (which should have come before the introduction of a single currency) the borrowing Greece accrued was their debts, the Greek politicians went on a spree & used the taxpayers as collateral, the Greek politicians need to & should be held to account.

What the citizens of Greece have decided is that they have had enough, you can only push people so far, the EU/ECB have done nothing to help, other than lend/borrow them more money, the last payment was going to be used to pay the next instalment, they were between a rock & a hard place.

I would have voted no myself.

WjGfcde.gif

Sure the debt could be written off once Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Belgium, and the UK get behind it.
 

Theonik

Member
They don't have to, Greece can and will most certainly default.
Unless the creditors cut the debt. Or they could lend Greece money to pay their short term debt again so they can have this discussion again in a couple of years and we can talk about lazy Greeks and failures to reform. (lol)
 

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
Sure the debt could be written off once Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Belgium, and the UK get behind it.
My country, Austria, get behind this?
Our right-wing and center basically go "The greek people have lived a life of joy and overspending, knowing no hard work and much laziness. Now it's time to pay the price."
It's especially disgusting coming from the right whose big icon Jörg Haider has manged to secrectly amass a debt of $20bn in a single bank, the Hype Kärnten, in Corinthia state, a state of 500k people.
By giving a bit to the people and a lot to friends.

Gogo Greece, my heart is with you common people. Let's see what you will do, the world is watching. Could be glory, could be fuck up.
 

Lucumo

Member
My country, Austria, get behind this?
Our right-wing and center basically go "The greek people have lived a life of joy and overspending, knowing no hard work and much laziness. Now it's time to pay the price."
It's especially disgusting coming from the right whose big icon Jörg Haider has manged to secrectly amass a debt of $20bn in a single bank, the Hype Kärnten, in Corinthia state, a state of 500k people.
By giving a bit to the people and a lot to friends.

Gogo Greece, my heart is with you common people. Let's see what you will do, the world is watching. Could be glory, could be fuck up.
You have watched too many movies.

And they are right with the overspending. Figures were posted earlier in this thread. Here is also an article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ending-defence-wages-taxation-economic-crisis
 
61-39 just announced.
Nice polls morons.
haha


Two or three days ago there was a "leak" of a document where it showed how some of the media/tv companies planned to cook up polls, to support the Yes option. It was linked in this thread.
Of course you never know if the documents were legit or a fake.

But now, it may be the case the docs were in fact legit and the poll numbers were manipulated...

Yep here it is
Also take the following with a grain of salt:
http://www.altsantiri.gr/politika/dierrefse-to-simioma-stratigikis-tis-nd-gia-na-petichoun-to-ne-apodiknii-oti-stinoun-dimoskopisis/

here's an allegedly leaked ND stategy plan intended to direct its members on what to say on media and how to frame Syriza for the banks closing. Refer to the referrendum as if the question asked is yes or no to euro and yes or no to Greece's staying in the eurozone. Also, specifically target women voters, pensioners, farmers and former Pasok voters that went to Syriza (that's your 30% that was talked above). Cook the polls to show that yes acceptancy is rising ("has a momentum" is the exact phrase) and bring it to 5-10% above no on the final polls. Lastly, use media personnas or showbiz citizens that are pro YES and let them get the spotlight instead of pro YES politicians (even they themselves know they are not trusted anymore and enrage the average greek citizen).

simeoma.jpg

Btw SAMAR-EXIT! ND is entering a "civil war" and Mpakogianni is most likely to go for ND presidency. That didn't take long. After failing to attack the sheep, the wolves are out for each other's neck now.
 

Syriel

Member
They aren't out of the Euro, lol. They cannot kick a country out just because it's in a financial mess, it would basically spell the end of the union. So Greece is only out of the EU if they want to leave, and chances are they stay but with their own money, or take a bad deal with a new crap corrupted government (one that likely won't even be elected anyway).

The euro and the EU are two different things. Greece can't just magically print euros by itself and if it doesn't have a source of euros (due to no transfers, trade imbalance, etc.) it will run out of money in short order. Once the country has no source of funds it is effectively "out of the euro" as it will have to print it s own currency.

Well that wouldn't work for most people, people need paper cash for a long time if Greece goes electronic.

Tsipras should bring a dog to Brussels.
dnpWINQ.jpg

Why do people in Greece need paper cash? Greece is a tiny country by population.

The small size would make it relatively easy to implement compared to larger countries with larger populations.


If Greece doesn't have money, you wouldn't want it to be able to print euro coins or dollars. Otherwise, it could just make what it needs (something it will be able to do if it switches to the drachma).

Greedy business men will only see cheap investment, they work like clockwork pouring money into Greece given the devalued coin, Argentina went through the same process growing at staggering rate every year.

If Greece switches to the drachma, foreign tourism will go up.

Right now, visiting Greece is expensive for the average American. With a devalued drachma, Greek holidays would be a lot more affordable. Similar things would be true for countries around the world.

Nice scaremongering, man.

Greece is doing what should have done 5 years ago.

Who knows, maybe Uncle Sam could help Greece to tie its new currency with the USD? Greece has a huge geopolitical importance, regardless of its economy.

Maybe America could buy an island or two and install a military base. That should bring in a few billion. ;)

What is really great for all of the EU is that a precedent has been set; people have been asked for vote on an important issue that would have otherwise been forced on them. So if things come to this in Italy or Spain or Portugal, at least there will be no "offended virgins" acting on the part of the Troika if a referendum is called when they keep making destructive proposals.

Setting a precedent was the most important thing Greece could do, regardless of the outcome for Greece specifically. That is a victory on its own, and many throughout Europe will be thankful to Greece when they are faced with similar demands in the future.

Except it wasn't a precedent set by the Greeks. Germany was telling Greece to hold a referendum a month prior. The Greek government didn't want to hold one.

Gemüsepizza;170973107 said:
You seem to be convinced that the EU will kick Greece out now, and that they will lose the Euro as a currency. After all that's what many "experts" and politicians said in the last few days, right?

But what if the EU doesn't want to do this? And what if the Greek government knows that? Then a "No" vote would strengthen their position in coming negotiations. I still believe that they won't leave the EU anytime soon.

If the EU wants to keep Greece in the euro at all costs, then Greece has won.

If the EU doesn't care if Greece stays in the euro or switches to another currency, then Greece has lost.

Either way, there are a number of countries in the EU that don't use the euro. Greece wouldn't be the first to be an EU member with a different currency.


If I'm reading that image right, it's actually kind of a low turnout.

Greece has ~11.03 million citizens.

Only ~2.146 million registered to vote (19.46% of the population registered).

If only 57.88% of those registered actually voted, that means only 1.242 million (2.146 x .5788) people voted, or 11.26% of the country bothered to cast a ballot.

lol, I would probably get a negative result, as in -X%.

edit: For those wondering what's next, obviously the Debt Cut is now on the table, thanks to the IMF report + No vote.

Not really. If Greece wants to hold the hard line, default is probably the most likely.

Russia should normally swim in money with all the resources they have.

While Greece has only tourism and cement.

Tourism can be a money maker if you are attractive enough. And lower prices due to a currency switch would mean an upswing in tourism in the short term.

As long as it is clear that said hundreds of billions were not poured into the greek economy or used to help those who were suffering. They were used to pay out external loans and effectively bail out banks and other private creditors. It is a big help, no doubt, but let's not present it as if all that money was given directly to Greece.

The money was given directly to Greece. That Greece spent much of it paying for loans that Greece took out in prior years, doesn't mean that the money didn't go to Greece.

You mean like all these refererendums in Europe where people were choosing to accept the Euro or not, and the local goverments were actively pushing for a "Yes".

Ah! I get it!, Double standards, don't worry is common practice in the core of the EU these days.

It is interesting from an American perspective, since you won't see governments taking an official stand on elections. Individual people can make endorsements, but that's a different thing. The actual government is always neutral and doesn't push for an outcome.

Media also has to give equal time.

I fear for how Britain views this more than what Greece does. With a referendum in two years, Britain pulling out would be a far bigger blow to the global economy than this.

Britain's just thinking "thank god we stayed on sterling!"

Indeed, countries like Latvia, Slovakia, Estonia are also in the Euro and a lot poorer then Greece. Can't really blame them if they don't want to have their citizens pay the debt of what is still a rich country compared to them.

Greece is still relatively well off compared to some of its neighbors. That conflict in interest can't be ignored, otherwise you start turning it into a question of "why give it to them, when you should give it to us?"

Yep, and Greece always has the option of saying "we're not paying you a dime back of the debt we owe ever since we just declared it null and void".

It's not like Europe is going to invade them to get their money back.

Europe isn't going to invade, but the loans would be cut off. No financing makes it difficult to run a country.

What kind of effect will this have on the Euro? I'm Canadian, so the Euro is currently trading at 1.38 cdn for every Euro. Could this drop substantially ?

It probably won't impact the euro much. What will be more interest is to see what happens to any new Greek currency should Greece decide to move off the euro and onto its own.

Watching all of this unfold from over here in the US, I'm really amazed at how powerful Germany has become.

Also a bit concerned about what a Grexit will mean for the US/global economy.

If there is a Grexit from the euro and onto a new currency, the US won't notice it aside from Greek imports being cheaper (go olive oil) and vacation dollars in Greece going farther.

I think the US economy has Puerto Rico to worry about, although possibly not as much Europe is worrying about Greece.

So Greece is going to default? I hope everyone have prepared themselves, it's going to get even tougher for the next year or two, but after that it'll probably get better, and with a cheaper currency, Greece' Tourism will hopefully bloom once again. Depending how competent the Government is.

I doubt it'll be a happy ending, like it was for Iceland.

Puerto Rico is a different case since it's not a sovereign country, but rather a US territory. It has to use the dollar, but it also has the US Federal government as a backstop.

If the EU were an actual country (more like a USofE) versus just a loose union, Greece could have relied on similar backstops. But the frameworks are different and as a result the two situations are also very different.

How much has the house market dropped in athens? Whats the sqm price now vs before at its highest?

At least on this site, home prices in Athens seem to be doing well. It's not like we're talking Detroit level pricing.

http://www.homegreekhome.com/en/search/results/residential/sale/r102/m102m?ref=homepageMapSearchSR

They don't have to, Greece can and will most certainly default.

Whatever Greece does, doing it sooner rather than later will be best for all.
 

pulsemyne

Member
Well if Greece is kicked out then if the people think things are bad now it's going to get a lot worse and very quickly as well. In the long run it may work out for them but in the short term no one is going to lend them money. You would have to be mad to do so. There's also the myriad structural problems in the Greek economy and some crazy tax laws which just don't work. It all combines to make Greece's economy one that just isn't competitive.
The problem with everything in this situation is that there was no good result. No is bad and Yes was bad. This whole thing could and should have been sorted 5 years ago but dithering and inflexibility on both sides means that Greece will suffer far more than it has done in the past 5 years.
As for the Euro well it'll be fine in the long term. It may have some short term instability but investors may few a greek removal as a very good thing. The other economies that were in trouble 5 years ago have managed to make a small come back and may continue to do so. If they do then I see nothing to worry investors.
If investors are spooked in the short term then they will turn to America or the UK as both are stable and, especially in the case of the UK, trade well with the eurozone. Once things are settled then confidence in the euro will return.
 
Metaxas never said "oxi", it is a myth. This is really the first true "oxi".

Not true. Sure he was a dictator, but he had been preparing ther greek army for months. After Italian subs took down greek warship "Elli", he knew the nazi would come-a-knocking sooner or later and silently prepared for war.
He also heavily fortified Macedonian front, much more efficient than the French Mazino line, the Germans could not get through, they had to go via Yugoslavia to encircle the greek army after italians failed for months to make advances and had in fact retreated deep into albanial soil. Look it up, Roupel fort, Metaxas Line etc..
And keep in mind, the line was unfinished, thats why they were encircled.
Even Nazis who suffered heavy losses, saluted greek soldiers on the line.

Go on. But don't quote Varoufakis and his 90% of the money went to european banks.

Yes some money went back to the actual loaners (I know it's shocking that they want their money back). But a lot of money went into creating new jobs in the government and also raising government employees wages.

What new jobs? Only the "voucher" subsidised 5-month work for 450€ is recruiting here. Public sector has been downsizing like crazy rendering crucial services like health services inefficient (imho in other areas it was extremely justified though, like OTE etc)

Russia should normally swim in money with all the resources they have.

While Greece has only tourism and cement.
Geopolitical reasons, oil, minerals, agriculture...

Good night, Greece. Dark times ahead of you.
Tsipras and the left government lied to the people, he said they'd get money without change. We have to act calmly.

The left blackmailers and liars like Tsipras can't get away with this.
whoa

Banks have been speculating with public debts to capitalize themselves over many years. I dont even want to talk about the criminal activities going in them , which here in PT we have two major cases ending up only to citizens (by bail out or straight up losses) suffering immensly. All this while fucking Merkel , Schuble and the rest of Eurogroup preach austerity , poverty and degrading basic conditions of human nature.

Also my post was not about any bank situation. Greece has a primary primary balance of 2.1 %GDP. Better only Portugal and Germany . Imagine that !!!!! Two of the countries suffering the most , have already lost 20-25% of wealth and still being drowned over austerity , are the ones who actually have the best public primary balance. They have been loan-sharked with unreal interest rates which makes the country impossible to pay their debts.

lEfKccN.png


Accept the situation. Renegotiate payment deadlines and let human dignity take its natural course. Just like Germany was allowed after monstrously destroying Europe in ww2 , lose everything and was able to get back on its feet with a huge plan that allowed themselves to recover their own economy while only paying their debts when the economy itself allowed.

Indeed, people seem to forget that if greece didn's have to pay enormous loans they would actually have a big surplus. A 23% VAT (amongst the highest globally) will do that to you, despite the tax evasion.

Is there any Greeks in this thread or people who are aware/seen what has been happening on the ground. I'm curious what the overall living standards are now compared to 5-6 years ago. Before the shit hit the fan. How much have wages decrease? What benefits have they lost or have declined (retirement age increased? Less Welfare, Less full time jobs?) Have the price of goods increase? and so on.

Well how about 1 in 3 greeks living under poverty? Hospitals running out of consumables being a common sight nowadays, or cases of children in school fainting from hunger (government plans to enforce mess), about 15.000 suicides in the last 5 years due to financial deadnds, unemployment at a historic high, minimum wage down at least 30% etc.

I know that if Canadians took a substantial hit to their living standards I don't think we'd cope because we've had it good for too long. I'm surrounded by people who live and die by their materialism, houses, cars and so forth. Have the Greeks made the adjustments as well as possible?

Well make no mistake, people who have it good are always the people who complain the most, they are conformists, "soft" imho. Here, i know many many cases (mostly pensioners and early retired ones at that) with no debt, financial autonomy that still complain that their pension is down, or that they cannot keep their 2-3 houses and 3 cars, ignoring that ~2 million are objectively poor without basic goods or even roof in many cases.
 
If Greece is bailed out by the center banks just printing money, does that have any negative impacts in real economy? It devalues the euro of course, but that's not a bad thing necessarily for the average working person (maybe for the German banks, I don't know). China and US have devalued their currencies, and it hasn't affected them negatively.
 

Theonik

Member
If Greece is bailed out by the center banks just printing money, does that have any negative impacts in real economy? It devalues the euro of course, but that's not a bad thing necessarily for the average working person (maybe for the German banks, I don't know). China and US have devalued their currencies, and it hasn't affected them negatively.
I'd say it's good for German exports for starters. Bad for people who like Videogames. (and other things that are usually imported)
 

Joni

Member
I'd say it's good for German exports for starters. Bad for people who like Videogames. (and other things that are usually imported)
It depends, Sony for instance prints their discs in Austria. Doesn't really make sense to ship such stuff from China to the rest of the world.
 

pgtl_10

Member
I find it odd that in today's system of capitalism countries do everything they can to save lenders. People have convinced themselves that borrowers are evil people preying on unsuspecting lenders.

You would think that a lender who is in control of the money would use their massive resources to assess the risk of a borrower.

These days we attack borrowers as part of some moral righteousness of paying one's debts. Attacking a borrower serves no purpose. A bad borrower has no money which is why they need a loan in the first place.

Saving French and German banks is sending a message that banks can be incompetent on their. A competent bank would not have loan the Greeks money.
 

Theonik

Member
I find it odd that in today's system of capitalism countries do everything they can to save lenders. People have convinced themselves that borrowers are evil people preying on unsuspecting lenders.

You would think that a lender who is in control of the money would use their massive resources to assess the risk of a borrower.

These days we attack borrowers as part of some moral righteousness of paying one's debts. Attacking a borrower serves no purpose. A bad borrower has no money which is why they need a loan in the first place.

Saving French and German banks is sending a message that banks can be incompetent on their. A competent bank would not have loan the Greeks money.
It's because we do need the banks. But I don't see why the bankers needed to be saved with the banks. The whole situation was handled terribly by both sides.
 

benjipwns

Banned
It's because we do need the banks. But I don't see why the bankers needed to be saved with the banks. The whole situation was handled terribly by both sides.
Because toxic finance elites and the political elites live in a bubble where they assume their reality is all reality.

The Blackberry Panic was the perfect example.

Jeff Immelt was the epitome. He pushed banks and their enablers, the governments, hard to shore up GE's toxic holdings because otherwise he was going to lose his bonus that year. (He eventually had to waive accepting it because of how bad it looked.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom