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[Relaxed Muscle]

Well, it's still true so I don't see why we shouldn't...

When 25% of the people in your country are living in poverty is hard to pay taxes.

The "lazy and corrupt Greece" moniker that has been throw all these years should stop now, Greece adopted any meassure by the troika for years now, if their economy can't recover is not because it's people are lazy and the goverment corrupt, if that was so, Italy and Spain are even more corrupted...

 

[Coriolanus]

Well, it's still true so I don't see why we shouldn't...

Oh? What charges of corruption can be levied against Tsipras's administration?

 

[EloKa]

No way.

If they let Greece go and it prospers, then Spain and Italy are gone immediately.

Spain and Italy are nowhere comparable to greece. Those 2 countries have a relevant economy for the EU and they have a population more than 10 times of the greeks and gross national product that has an even mugh higher factor. Also they can sustain themselves easily.

If they let Greece go and deliberately make Greece suffer, then people might stay for a while out of fear. But fear is not a sustainable motivation for a political union. When the opportunity arises for people to abandon the EU safely, they'll obviously take it.

If EU stops supporting Greece it will suffer on its own already. Until now Greece got their loans because of solidarity and not only due to financial reasons. Guess the loans will most likely stop now because the solidarity is gone on one side.

 

[erale]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Everyone all over the world was fed the bullshit about how good austerity is for getting back on your feet and it was lies. The IMF even said they fucked up themselves in regards to austerity

So you're saying the only way to reduce your debts is constantly spending more money than you earn? Well as Greece did that over the last 5 years they should be in a wonderful economic state.

So where was that austerity with raising government wages and employing even more government workers?

 

[TCRS]

I am not even sure what this means. Either way Greece is fucked. There is no way out of this without painful reforms, one way or another.

 

[Joni]

Already losing 1,15% points in the asian markets...

Which will make certain countries within the Euro very happy as it makes their export business more interesting.

 

[True Savior]

wow, well let's go all they way and fuck banks let's go back to barter

Banks have been speculating with public debts to capitalize themselves over many years. I dont even want to talk about the criminal activities going in them , which here in PT we have two major cases ending up only to citizens (by bail out or straight up losses) suffering immensly. All this while fucking Merkel , Schuble and the rest of Eurogroup preach austerity , poverty and degrading basic conditions of human nature.

Also my post was not about any bank situation. Greece has a primary primary balance of 2.1 %GDP. Better only Portugal and Germany . Imagine that !!!!! Two of the countries suffering the most , have already lost 20-25% of wealth and still being drowned over austerity , are the ones who actually have the best public primary balance. They have been loan-sharked with unreal interest rates which makes the country impossible to pay their debts.

Accept the situation. Renegotiate payment deadlines and let human dignity take its natural course. Just like Germany was allowed after monstrously destroying Europe in ww2 , lose everything and was able to get back on its feet with a huge plan that allowed themselves to recover their own economy while only paying their debts when the economy itself allowed.

 

[2MF]

It's not just about the Greek people. Taxpayers of the other countries are the ones paying that money if it doesn't get paid back.

Taxpayers of those other countries should blame (if anyone) the politicians / central bankers who decided to buy Greek debt and expose taxpayers to it, instead of letting it implode when it was owned by banks.

Greek people didn't force anyone to lend them money.

 

[chadskin]

German vice chancellor and economy minister Sigmar Gabriel:

GERMAN ECONOMY MINISTER GABRIEL TELLS GERMAN PAPER IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE TALKS ON A NEW BAILOUT PROGRAMME AFTER GREEK REFERENDUM RESULT - REUTERS

Original source:

21:10 Uhr: SPD-Chef Sigmar Gabriel hat mit scharfer Kritik an der griechischen Regierung auf den Ausgang des Referendums über die Sparauflagen der internationalen Geldgeber reagiert. Dem Berliner "Tagesspiegel" (Montagausgabe) sagte Gabriel: "Tsipras und seine Regierung führen das griechische Volk auf einen Weg von bitterem Verzicht und Hoffnungslosigkeit." Tsipras habe seinem Volk vorgegaukelt, mit einem 'Nein' werde die Verhandlungsposition Griechenlands gestärkt. Tatsächlich habe der griechische Regierungschef aber "letzte Brücken eingerissen, über die Europa und Griechenland sich auf einen Kompromiss zubewegen konnten". Wörtlich fügte Gabriel hinzu: "Mit der Absage an die Spielregeln der Eurozone, wie sie im mehrheitlichen Nein zum Ausdruck kommt, sind Verhandlungen über milliardenschwere Programme kaum vorstellbar." Der Ball liege jetzt in Athen.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/...hat-letzte-bruecken-eingerissen/12011456.html

SPD is a center-left party FYI.

 

[pigeon]

Letting Greece exit the euro will save it. Why would Italy, Spain, and others accept another Greek bailout without austerity when those countries have been following it and recovering?

They won't, but based on Spain and Italy's economies, they never should have in the first place. How is 25% unemployment helping Spain?

 

[PodcastFips]

Already losing 1,15% points in the asian markets...

German stock exchange dropped by 3-4% after Greece did not pay the IMF and recovered within the same day. We'll see.

 

[Negotiator]

this one-dimensional demonization of banks is just detached from reality.

And what about the one-dimensional demonization of Greece?

Double standards, I guess...

Greece might leave the euro and then you will see the markets attacking Portugal/Spain/Italy. It will be too late then... the sacrificial goat will have left this sanctimonious union.

 

[KHlover]

Calling them corrupt is stretching it, considering it's not been that long since they were voted in, but Tsipras and Varoufakis definitely are inexperienced, incompetent and acted like a bunch of brats over the past few months.

 

[Heartfyre]

What kind of effect will this have on the Euro? I'm Canadian, so the Euro is currently trading at 1.38 cdn for every Euro. Could this drop substantially ?

The Euro has proven very resilient over the past couple of weeks, so I wouldn't expect any substantial shifts. The stock markets will probably take a ~2% hit once markets open, but the effect on the Euro is likely to be more muted. The real potential dangers come in the future, if more countries state they wish to leave the monetary union, but the likelihood of that depends on who you ask. I reckon it's a storm in a teacup in the grand scheme.

 

[erale]

And what about the one-dimensional demonization of Greece?

Double standards, I guess...

Greece might leave the euro and then you will see the markets attacking Portugal/Spain/Italy. It will be too late then... the sacrificial goat will have left this sanctimonious union.

So a far right-wing austrian party now speaks for everyone in europe? Wow!

 

[tokkun]

When 25% of the people in your country are living in poverty is hard to pay taxes.

Seems like the problem has more to do with the well-off than the poor:
http://www.businessinsider.com/this...eece-has-a-massive-tax-evasion-problem-2015-2

 

[valouris]

If they pull the plug now it will be on them, unilaterally.

Greek government has repeatedly said No means new negotiations, and it does not equal no new measures. Poll shows 80% of Greeks want in on the Eurozone and referendum showed 60% dont want a rubbish deal.

If the EZ forces a Grexit without even giving a proper chance at negotiations it is their decision against the will of the Greeks. What a union.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

Okay that's clever.

So you're saying the only way to reduce your debts is constantly spending more money than you earn? Well as Greece did that over the last 5 years they should be in a wonderful economic state.

So where was that austerity with raising government wages and employing even more government workers?

Got a hard on against Greece huh?

I'm saying that the only way to reduce the debts is to default on them rather than spend all of your money paying them and not being able to function properly due to it.

Newsflash, asking someone to pay more when they have no money doesn't make you money. How are you supposed to generate tax when 25%+ of the population is jobless due to said austerity? Not that they're dodging tax, they can't get jobs to pay tax.

So raising wages to help people survive, and giving people jobs is a bad thing?

Okay. You're honestly clueless.

 

[True Savior]

Letting Greece exit the euro will save it. Why would Italy, Spain, and others accept another Greek bailout without austerity when those countries have been following it and recovering?

Is this some kind of joke ?

You have any idea what has Greece been going through ? Without austerity ? Greece ?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Calling them corrupt is stretching it, considering it's not been that long since they were voted in, but Tsipras and Varoufakis definitely are inexperienced, incompetent and acted like a bunch of brats over the past few months.

And yet they kneeled all these past months over the troika nefarious intentions of redoubling their austerity plans in the face of not letting Greece get a better deal, that was needed anyway.

Until they said "enough, is enough" and their people agrees.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Results seem to be in; maybe time for new thread for new news?

 

[Rektash]

If they pull the plug now it will be on them, unilaterally.

Greek government has repeatedly said No means new negotiations, and it does not equal no new measures. Poll shows 80% of Greeks want in on the Eurozone and referendum showed 60% dont want a rubbish deal.

If the EZ forces a Grexit without even giving a proper chance at negotiations it is their decision against the will of the Greeks. What a union.

Is this some kind of joke? I hope so.

 

[Coriolanus]

Calling them corrupt is stretching it, considering it's not been that long since they were voted in, but Tsipras and Varoufakis definitely are inexperienced, incompetent and acted like a bunch of brats over the past few months.

In which we learned that one man's "refused to capitulate" is another's "acted like a bunch of brats".

On the other hand, we know for a fact that Schauble, as well as all the other previous Greek governments that the EU was more than happy to deal with, are corrupt. Weird, that.

Results seem to be in; maybe time for new thread for new news?

I'm waiting for the final results.

 

[wsippel]

When 25% of the people in your countrt are living in poverty is hard to pay taxes...

How does 25% of the population living in poverty prevent the other 75% from paying taxes?

I'm being facetious here, but we all know that tax evasion and tax exemptions are and have been a massive problem in Greece. Greeks in this very thread even tried to explain and in some cases even justify it. But no matter the cause, it's a big issues, and I don't see it suddenly changing for the better if Greece leaves the EU.

 

[Negotiator]

So a far right-wing austrian party now speaks for everyone in europe? Wow!

Far right-wing parties are on the rise in Europe (regrettably so).

I guess you haven't paid much attention to Finland's newest government...

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

How does 25% of the population living in poverty prevent the other 75% from paying taxes?

I'm being facetious here, but we all know that tax evasion and tax exemptions are and have been a massive problem in Greece. Greeks in this very thread even tried to explain and in some cases even justify it. But no matter the cause, it's a big issues, and I don't see it suddenly changing for the better if Greece leaves the EU.

Tex evasions are not only a Greece problem, and you don't see half EU states in deep shit for those reasons.

Funny enough, Spain actual governant party see cases of corruption in their people almost everyday, and is the party Merkel is supporting.

 

[erale]

If they pull the plug now it will be on them, unilaterally.

Greek government has repeatedly said No means new negotiations, and it does not equal no new measures. Poll shows 80% of Greeks want in on the Eurozone and referendum showed 60% dont want a rubbish deal.

If the EZ forces a Grexit without even giving a proper chance at negotiations it is their decision against the will of the Greeks. What a union.

Nobody is forcing them out. Over weeks the outher eurozone countries tried to find a solution with the Greece government.

And the party demanding something from others certainly isn't in the position to dictate the terms.

Ever tried to get a loan from your bank?

 

[KHlover]

And what about the one-dimensional demonization of Greece?

Double standards, I guess...

Greece might leave the euro and then you will see the markets attacking Portugal/Spain/Italy. It will be too late then... the sacrificial goat will have left this sanctimonious union.

Would that be triple standards now? Talk about one-dimensional demonization...

 

[Ether_Snake]

How does 25% of the population living in poverty prevent the other 75% from paying taxes?

I'm being facetious here, but we all know that tax evasion and tax exemptions are and have been a massive problem in Greece. Greeks in this very thread even tried to explain and in some cases even justify it. But no matter the cause, it's a big issues, and I don't see it suddenly changing for the better if Greece leaves the EU.

Electronic currency, solved.

 

[Polari]

Might want to hold off on those celebrations dudes... you're still fucked.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

So that's it I guess. Bye Greece.

 

[valouris]

Is this some kind of joke? I hope so.

My mistake, without a proper chance at new negotiations.

I will not go into the matter of whether or not any side conducted proper negotiations, most of us here agreed that both sides were too stubborn. There is a new democratic mandate now and new information. Not entering negotiations anew would be an extreme, unilateral move imho.

 

[PodcastFips]

Might want to hold off on those celebrations dudes... you're still fucked.

#YOLO

 

[LJ11]

Man, the craziness is flying.

Monitor what the ECB does, all there is at this point.

 

[OnADock]

Electronic currency, solved.

What does that solve exactly? What's to prevent moving around funds to escape taxation? Most of our currency is electronic now anyway.

 

[KHarvey16]

Might want to hold off on those celebrations dudes... you're still fucked.

I think it's worth celebrating the defeat of counter-productive suffering.

 

[snap0212]

You're delusional if you think that the average Greek sent his money to Switzerland or anywhere else.

We're not talking about the Greek elite here... you can confiscate Greek elite's deposits for all I care.

Regular people withdraw money from their deposits to pay the ever increasing taxes, while their wages/pensions are getting slashed. This is NOT sustainable.

Then post a graph that shows that. The graphs posted are not useful as proof for what you're saying, that's all.

 

[Coriolanus]

Would that be triple standards now? Talk about one-dimensional demonization...

If you wanna keep poking each other's eyes over which idiotic electorate demonized the other more, you'll both end up blind.

 

[Mrmartel]

Is there any Greeks in this thread or people who are aware/seen what has been happening on the ground. I'm curious what the overall living standards are now compared to 5-6 years ago. Before the shit hit the fan. How much have wages decrease? What benefits have they lost or have declined (retirement age increased? Less Welfare, Less full time jobs?) Have the price of goods increase? and so on.

I know that if Canadians took a substantial hit to their living standards I don't think we'd cope because we've had it good for too long. I'm surrounded by people who live and die by their materialism, houses, cars and so forth. Have the Greeks made the adjustments as well as possible?

 

[EloKa]

What does that solve exactly?

the obvious answer is: absolutely nothing.

 

[Diablos]

Watching all of this unfold from over here in the US, I'm really amazed at how powerful Germany has become.

Also a bit concerned about what a Grexit will mean for the US/global economy.

 

[erale]

Far right-wing parties are on the rise in Europe (regrettably so).

I guess you haven't paid much attention to Finland's newest government...

Yeah there are more than enough idiots on this world the vote some left or right wing parties into their government once in a while. But still those are exceptions, even when there is some sort of possible voter increase...

 

[Ether_Snake]

What does that solve exactly?

How do I avoid paying taxes if I charge you for a service or product if the currency is electronic?

Some people believe Greeks are lazy and don't pay their taxes, others want them to be lazy and not pay their taxes, scapegoats are useful.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Watching all of this unfold from over here in the US, I'm really amazed at how powerful Germany has become.

Also a bit concerned about what a Grexit will mean for the US/global economy.

Greece is way too small to have any kind of global impact. The US economy will not feel a thing. Their trade with Greece is probably tiny.

 

[jstripes]

Ok, so. What does this mean? What's going to happen?

 

[KHlover]

In which we learned that one man's "refused to capitulate" is another's "acted like a bunch of brats".

On the other hand, we know for a fact that Schauble, as well as all the other previous Greek governments that the EU was more than happy to deal with, are corrupt. Weird, that.



I'm waiting for the final results.

Nah I was talking about their actual behaviour here, like appearing at important meetings completely unprepared, leaving meetings early. Stuf like that. Behaving like a bunch of brats.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Is there any Greeks in this thread or people who are aware/seen what has been happening on the ground. I'm curious what the overall living standards are now compared to 5-6 years ago. Before the shit hit the fan. How much have wages decrease? What benefits have they lost or have declined (retirement age increased? Less Welfare, Less full time jobs?) Have the price of goods increase? and so on.

I know that if Canadians took a substantial hit to their living standards I don't think we'd cope because we've had it good for too long. I'm surrounded by people who live and die by their materialism, houses, cars and so forth. Have the Greeks made the adjustments as well as possible?

Canadians' debt levels are unsustainable, we have some of the highest if not the highest debt per household in the world now. The hit is coming, don't worry.

 

[elrechazado]

Ok, so. What does this mean? What's going to happen?

More posturing by both sides. Nothing happens different either way the vote went.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Greece is way too small to have any kind of global impact. The US economy will not feel a thing. Their trade with Greece is probably tiny.

The contagion effects will surely affect south-europe and the Euro will become a dead currency in the mid-term.

How much this will affect the global economy we shall see.

 

[Diablos]

Greece is way too small to have any kind of global impact. The US economy will not feel a thing. Their trade with Greece is probably tiny.

The last time Greece was in trouble, I seem to recall a lot of people being very concerned about what it would do to the economy, not only in the EU but the US as well.