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[Wiktor]

That's why Greece needs its own currency. Thanks for reinforcing my point. Greece used to have factories back in the 70s/80s.
.

Yes, Drahma would help a lot.It would make them cheaper tourist spot and production source, which would bring more companies/customers there. It would also raise the prices on imported goods, which in turn would promote Greek companies' own products.

. But it would also mean Greeks having to accept that they're one of the poorer countries and their standards of living have to reflect that. The question is - are they?

 

[Theonik]

Yes, Drahma would help a lot.It would make them cheaper tourist spot and production source, which would bring more companies/customers there. It would also raise the prices on imported goods, which in turn would promote Greek companies' own products.

. But it would also mean Greeks having to accept that they're one of the poorer countries and their standards of living have to reflect that. The question is - are they?

They will have to accept it.

 

[Purkake4]

Really hope this comes to an end now either way. We really don't need another 3 months of "this is the super extra last deadline, will Greece drift away to the bottom of the Mediterranean?" headlines.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Really hope this comes to an end now either way. We really don't need another 3 months of "this is the super extra last deadline, will Greece drift away to the bottom of the Mediterranean?" headlines.

It will. There is no feasible way any negotiations could extend past the 20th, and realistically it would be a struggle to extend them beyond the 8th. This is it.

 

[ElTorro]

Yeah, bloody mediterranians, all you are good for is a vaccation spot in the sun for us hard working, honest, northerenrnrns.

All the good™ mediterranians with nice degrees have already fled to the glorious north years ago. We robbed the south of its most valuable resource.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

There's nothing more dangerous in the world than bored and sober Aragonese/Catalonian hick.

I wasn't sober.

 

[Wiktor]

They will have to accept it.

Eventually they probably will. But I feel like a lot of people there still delude themselves that this is temporary crisis and once it's over things will go back to way they were before. It's not like I can't understand this hope. I mean..so many years of sacrifices and in the end you still end up poor? That's not something easy to come to terms with.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

All the good™ mediterranians with nice degrees have already fled to the glorious north years ago. We robbed the south of its most valuable resource.

I thought that was olive oil

 

[Purkake4]

It will. There is no feasible way any negotiations could extend past the 20th, and realistically it would be a struggle to extend them beyond the 8th. This is it.

I really hope you're right.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Yes, Drahma would help a lot.It would make them cheaper tourist spot and production source, which would bring more companies/customers there. It would also raise the prices on imported goods, which in turn would promote Greek companies' own products.

. But it would also mean Greeks having to accept that they're one of the poorer countries and their standards of living have to reflect that. The question is - are they?

Veople of Greeich! No more covee vor you! No more cigaretten! No more veach! Only hard vork now!!!

 

[jakonovski]

But it would also mean Greeks having to accept that they're one of the poorer countries and their standards of living have to reflect that. The question is - are they?

They have more than 25% unemployment, whaddya think?

 

[PdotMichael]

That's why Greece needs its own currency. Thanks for reinforcing my point. Greece used to have factories back in the 70s/80s.

And how is the secondary sector related to the own currency? In fact the Greece's industry had the highest growth rate since the mid 90s and got another boost after the Euro.

Also you can't suddenly turn into an industry centric nation even with 20 own currencies. Just look at Turkey and what a long and hard process it is to build up a remarkable industry.

 

[alexandros]

It baffles me that in this day and age some people are still prone to using archaic stereotypes in order to label entire countries as one thing or another. One would think that our civilization has advanced far enough for all of us to understand that every country, region and race has good and bad people, lazy people and hard working people, honest people and corrupt people.

 

[AstroNut325]

Saw this on Reddit:
http://youtu.be/C8xAXJx9WJ8

Is it accurate?

 

[pigeon]

EU isn;t communistic state. If Greeks want those factories they need to be competitive. So it means accepting far smaller pay than german workers. Unless they're cheaper nobody will move those factories there.
Greece isn't a country where standards of living can reasonably be expected to compare to Germany and it won't be for a long long time. If somebody is expecting otherwise he's fooling himself.

It is not possible for Greeks to take significantly less pay than Germans, because they still need to buy the same food and shelter in order to live, and the prices of those items are denominated in euros and set in the eurozone. Normally, in a developing country, the low wages are offset by the low cost of staples in the local economy (which themselves are offset by the general risk of death being higher in a developing country). But that's not possible here.

I feel that people are still not understanding the underlying structure here. We understand that the euro zone is a mechanism for Germany to export cheap commodities without destroying its balance of trade. But there are lots of things that can be commodities. For example, labor is a commodity. Companies need to buy labor to produce goods. Having a capital advantage is usually understood as meaning that goods are cheaper to make -- but another way of understanding it is that, with better capital, companies don't need to buy as much labor per unit of goods. That means that the demand for labor is lower, which means that the value of labor falls.

Germany isn't just exporting cheap electronics to the rest of the euro zone -- it's exporting cheap labor, created by industrialization and automation, to the rest of the euro zone. (And of course its business-friendly policies are part of the same story.)

Now do you understand why Spain and Greece are running 25% unemployment?

 

[FlyingSaucer]

It baffles me that in this day and age some people are still prone to using archaic stereotypes in order to label entire countries as one thing or another. One would think that our civilization has advanced far enough for all of us to understand that every country, region and race has good and bad people, lazy people and hard working people, honest people and corrupt people.

Last time I checked we were still the same bunch of tribal, hairless monkeys, stumbling from one catastrophe to the next extremist horror, utterly brainwashed by the pretty fairy tales told by our sociopathics leaders.

The only thing that have progressed are our delusions of grandeur.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Greeks are lazy indeed:

Oh wait...

Does this chart account for part time jobs?

 

[Ether_Snake]

The new Greek finance minister looks pretty friendly, maybe the Troika would have preferred Varoufakis to stay...

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Saw this on Reddit:
http://youtu.be/C8xAXJx9WJ8

Is it accurate?

Thats overall correct, but the first half is a bit one sided. It makes it look like the other countries fucked germany, but germany was quit happy with the status quo for a long time because as an export nation it could reach new export heights because other european countries were importing so much.
That was great for germany, but ultimately germanys surplus was their neighbors deficits.

The conclusion is correct in my opinion, though.
At the end of the day european nations need to give up more sovereignty and form a United Nations Of Europe. So not only a financial union, but also a political one.
Not only is that necessary for the currency to work, but also for europe to stay relevant in global economics fo centuries to come.
European countries on their own will soon be to insignificant to be able to have any influence on a global scale, thats actually one of the afterthoughts of the EU anyways.

 

[oti]

The new Greek finance minister looks pretty friendly, maybe the Troika would have preferred Varoufakis to stay...

Come on. Let them talk first. Conspiracy theories later.

 

[witchedwiz]

Because no one wants your Monopoly money? Why should I take your money if you just print more of it and make what I have worthless?

This..
I'd love seeing banks accepting an hypothetic new greek currency when accepting debt payout..

 

[Wiktor]

It is not possible for Greeks to take significantly less pay than Germans, because they still need to buy the same food and shelter in order to live, and the prices of those items are denominated in euros and set in the eurozone.

There are eurozone countries where costs of living are significantly lower than in Germany, so it's possible. Just maybe not for Greece. But that's the whole problem. Greece was never wealthy enough or strong enough economically to be allowed into eurozone. And no matter how much you cut and reform that won't change anytime soon. Controler bancrupcy and returning to drahma is pretty much the only way they can fully recover. Everything else and they will forever limp, barely scraping by

 

[Funky Papa]

For what is worth, Spain's finance minister and all around Shit Lord claims that Greece is to remain within the Euro and that the Spanish government may accept to negotiate a new bailout depending on the terms.

Keep in mind that he's was lobbying heavily in favour of Yes and wanted Tsipras out of the government in order to avoid a leftist contagion in Spain, so maybe this means that the last bridge was not burned as Sigmar Gabriel claimed.

 

[Dascu]

[...] problems is that Greeks do not want to relinquish early retirement at 55 with 3 pensions amounting 3k a month. Spain's average pension is less than 1k. Greeks want restructuring and a 3rd bailout, but without offering something substantial in return

Friend of mine is mentioning these numbers. Are they accurate?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

None of the opinion polls predicted a landslide. All of them indicated a tight race.

Does anyone have any theories about how the polls could be so off?

 

[Wiktor]

This..
I'd love seeing banks accepting an hypothetic new greek currency when accepting debt payout..

The whole point of country going bancrupt and returning to it's old currency is to not pay the debt

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Greeks are lazy indeed:

Oh wait...

Does this chart show effective work performed?

I really doubt that each and every government employee from state to local level works all of is hours...in any country.

Of course the stats will be off the charts in a country with an abundance of administrative workers, you punch it in in the morning you punch it out in the evening, you get your full hours, but your country is crashing...something is off.

 

[Wiktor]

None of the opinion polls predicted a landslide. All of them indicated a tight race.

Does anyone have any theories about how the polls could be so off?

This year as a whole has been disastrous for polls being able to accurately predict the outcomes in Europe.

 

[LJ11]

ECB adjusting haircuts on ELA collateral, so it begins. Shit just got tougher.

 

[Theonik]

For what is worth, Spain's finance minister and all around Shit Lord claims that Greece is to remain within the Euro and that the Spanish government may accept to negotiate a new bailout depending on the terms.

Keep in mind that he's was lobbying heavily in favour of Yes and wanted Tsipras out of the government in order to avoid a leftist contagion in Spain, so maybe this means that the last bridge was not burned as Sigmar Gabriel claimed.

There is no real burning of bridges in this situation. Both sides bluff to the amount they are afforded to push the other side to move but they know that if they fuck this up the result would be disastrous and already the damage that has been done will take years to mend. Now is the time to talk sense. So the talks will continue.

 

[valouris]

Friend of mine is mentioning these numbers. Are they accurate?

Absolutely not. There may be about 10000 shady people with shady pensions like that, but that is way way far from the norm.

ECB adjusting haircuts on ELA collateral, so it begins. Shit just got tougher.

Scary..

 

[m_dorian]

Friend of mine is mentioning these numbers. Are they accurate?

http://www.independent.mk/articles/19016/Pensions+in+Europe+Range+from+EUR++to+EUR+,

My father gets € 600 per month and i know many people getting less than this. Greek goverment proposed 67 to be the retirement age from 66.
One other significant objection that came up during the negotiations was that the creditors demand a flat 23% VAT while the Greek proposition was 23% general, 13 for tourism and food, 6% for books. Since tourism is a big moneymaker, a 23% would made it more expensive than the competition in the area so less profit from it. It is like committing suicide.
The 13% for food and restaurants have helped small businesses to operate and even hire people, raising it to 23% will create more unemployment, it is pointless.

 

[Joni]

Does this chart show effective work performed?

No, in the effective productivity chart they come in a lot lower. Germans work less, but produce more revenue.

Of course the stats will be off the charts in a country with an abundance of administrative workers, you punch it in in the morning you punch it out in the evening, you get your full hours, but your country is crashing...something is off.

It is actually more complicated: Germany has more part-time jobs, Greece has more self-employed people like farmers, ...

Greek goverment proposed 67 to be the retirement age from 66.

That is actually a European mandate.

 

[Dascu]

http://www.independent.mk/articles/19016/Pensions+in+Europe+Range+from+EUR++to+EUR+,

My father gets € 600 per month and i know many people getting less than this. Greek goverment proposed 67 to be the retirement age from 66.
One other significant objection that came up during the negotiations was that the creditors demand a flat 23% VAT while the Greek proposition was 23% general, 13 for tourism and food, 6% for books. Since tourism is a big moneymaker, a 23% would made it more expensive than the competition in the area so less profit from it. It is like committing suicide.
The 13% for food and restaurants have helped small businesses to operate and even hire people, raising it to 23% will create more unemployment, it is pointless.

Thanks.

 

[Mumei]

Economist Thomas Piketty: Germany has never repaid its debts
https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff

It was taken down for the moment when I looked, but Slate had two interesting snippets from it:

ZEIT: But shouldn’t they repay their debts?

Piketty: My book recounts the history of income and wealth, including that of nations. What struck me while I was writing is that Germany is really the single best example of a country that, throughout its history, has never repaid its external debt. Neither after the First nor the Second World War. However, it has frequently made other nations pay up, such as after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, when it demanded massive reparations from France and indeed received them. The French state suffered for decades under this debt. The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.

ZEIT: But surely we can’t draw the conclusion that we can do no better today?

Piketty: When I hear the Germans say that they maintain a very moral stance about debt and strongly believe that debts must be repaid, then I think: what a huge joke! Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations.

Piketty: After the war ended in 1945, Germany’s debt amounted to over 200% of its GDP. Ten years later, little of that remained: public debt was less than 20% of GDP. Around the same time, France managed a similarly artful turnaround. We never would have managed this unbelievably fast reduction in debt through the fiscal discipline that we today recommend to Greece. Instead, both of our states employed the second method with the three components that I mentioned, including debt relief. Think about the London Debt Agreement of 1953, where 60% of German foreign debt was cancelled and its internal debts were restructured.

 

[Ether_Snake]

The new Greek finance minister looks pretty friendly, maybe the Troika would have preferred Varoufakis to stay...

 

[LJ11]

It was taken down for the moment when I looked, but Slate had two interesting snippets from it:

Mumei, if you're interested in reading about the French Indemnity and it's shocks to the German economy check out the following.

 

[Osiris]

The new Greek finance minister looks pretty friendly, maybe the Troika would have preferred Varoufakis to stay...

You already posted this an hour ago.

 

[fanboi]

You already posted this an hour ago.

Haha lol I was just thinking 'I have read that before or have I completly lost track of time working so hard up north'

 

[gutter_trash]

Either the EU turns to Federalism and use equalization payment scheme like the US and Canada do, where the richer States/ Provinces give more money to the Federal and the Federal pays out equalization payment to the have-not Provinces/States

or Either the EU just lets each country have their own currency

I hear lots of Reagan-esque comments here but the truth is the poorest States in the US are Southern Red states and the richest States are coastal Blue states. Poor Red states receive money from richer coastal Blue states

Canada is the same deal, Oil rich provinces give out money to non-Oil provinces through the Federal.

 

[oti]

Either the EU turns to Federalism and use equalization payment scheme like the US and Canada do, where the richer States/ Provinces give more money to the Federal and the Federal pays out equalization payment to the have-not Provinces/States

or Either the EU just lets each country have their own currency

I hear lots of Reagan-esque comments here but the truth is the poorest States in the US are Southern Red states and the richest States are coastal Blue states. Poor Red states receive money from richer coastal Blue states

Canada is the same deal, Oil rich provinces give out money to non-Oil provinces.

So just like West Germany pays money to East Germany.

 

[CrunchyB]

Haha lol I was just thinking 'I have read that before or have I completly lost track of time working so hard up north'

Must be those long working hours.

 

[gutter_trash]

So just like West Germany pays money to East Germany.

Germany lol,

get debt forgiven in the 1950s after waging a world war then demand other countries 60 years later to pay up

 

[Ether_Snake]

You already posted this an hour ago.

Neogaf timed out on me, it got double posted.

 

[Theonik]

So just like West Germany pays money to East Germany.

And isn't Bavaria still the Richest state?

 

[My words exactly!]

It is not possible for Greeks to take significantly less pay than Germans, because they still need to buy the same food and shelter in order to live, and the prices of those items are denominated in euros and set in the eurozone. Normally, in a developing country, the low wages are offset by the low cost of staples in the local economy (which themselves are offset by the general risk of death being higher in a developing country). But that's not possible here.

I feel that people are still not understanding the underlying structure here. We understand that the euro zone is a mechanism for Germany to export cheap commodities without destroying its balance of trade. But there are lots of things that can be commodities. For example, labor is a commodity. Companies need to buy labor to produce goods. Having a capital advantage is usually understood as meaning that goods are cheaper to make -- but another way of understanding it is that, with better capital, companies don't need to buy as much labor per unit of goods. That means that the demand for labor is lower, which means that the value of labor falls.

Germany isn't just exporting cheap electronics to the rest of the euro zone -- it's exporting cheap labor, created by industrialization and automation, to the rest of the euro zone. (And of course its business-friendly policies are part of the same story.)

Now do you understand why Spain and Greece are running 25% unemployment?

Exactly. One more important thing to consider is this:
average cost of goods is the same in Greece and Germany. Meanwhile, greek wages can be as low as 1/4 of its' respective german. This is a major problem.

Friend of mine is mentioning these numbers. Are they accurate?

Nope. There are exceptions like those you mention (and it is either former bankers, military/naval/police officials or people who worked as managers on public services)
but for most of the people it is way WAY lower;
Labour Ministry: 33% of Greek pensioners get €360 gross, another 33% gets €675
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/20...nsioners-get-e360-gross-another-33-gets-e675/

It was taken down for the moment when I looked, but Slate had two interesting snippets from it:

Indeed it is ironic (i mean the debt payment) but w/e one has to have a spine to properly negotiate (by that i mean greek governments)

 

[petran79]

It is not possible for Greeks to take significantly less pay than Germans, because they still need to buy the same food and shelter in order to live, and the prices of those items are denominated in euros and set in the eurozone. Normally, in a developing country, the low wages are offset by the low cost of staples in the local economy (which themselves are offset by the general risk of death being higher in a developing country). But that's not possible here.

Greece is also the second most expensive country in Europe in housing costs, after Denmark. UK comes third

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/jul/19/uk-housing-costs-third-highest

UK families are among the worst off in Europe when it comes to housing costs, spending more than 40% of their household income on rent, mortgage payments and other living costs, according to the housing charity Shelter.

A report by the charity concludes that the failure of successive British governments to prioritise housing investment has led to one in six people being overburdened with rent, mortgage payments and costs such as utility bills, service charges and tax. The report used data from the European Union Statistics on Income and Living Standards to calculate the percentage of people living in a household where total housing costs (net of housing allowances) exceed 40% of a family's total disposable household income.

It reveals that in France, just 5.2% of the population face such unaffordable costs compared to three times as many in the UK. Of the 29 countries analysed, only families in Denmark and Greece are worse off, making the UK the third most expensive place to live in terms of housing costs. UK families are now worse off than many countries with ailing economies, such as Spain, Italy and Portugal. Cyprus is the cheapest country, with just 2.5% of the population facing unaffordable housing costs, equivalent to one in 40 people.

 

[Ether_Snake]

They will put even more pressure on Greece it seems. I think it's pretty much certain they're leaving the EZ now.

 

[oti]

Germany lol,

get debt forgiven in the 1950s after waging a world war then demand other countries 60 years later to pay up

Asking countries to pay their debt isn't a bad thing. I don't agree with everything Germany does but painting them as evil overlords is misguided.

And isn't Bavaria still the Richest state?

I hate Bavaria so much.

 

[My words exactly!]

Asking countries to pay their debt isn't a bad thing. I don't agree with everything Germany does but painting them as evil overlords is misguided.

Indeed. It's just that rhetorics from people who don't know their recent history can be infuriating.

Varoufakis about the new Greek FiMi (turns out they were colleagues)
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/it...7;-απουσία

Beyond this, however with Euclid connects us and a common aversion to the absence of arguments takes the form of '' this will be because it was' ''.

Then John Varoufakis stressed that "goal was and remains breaking the cycle of recession" and did a "mini" referring to the war that has been launched by the Ministry of Finance tax evasion noting that he hopes that in the September will come and the results to combat it.

Finally, Mr. Varoufakis wished good luck to Mr. Tsakalotos and scored with meaning that "all this time instead of anathematizing darkness we lit a small candle."