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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures

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Vade

Vade

Member
The Greeks are fine with higher taxes, they will not be paying them anyway. If the Greeks actually paid what they owed their own government the hole would not be the size of the Pacific Ocean and growing. Problem is now that this hole is at this level no amount of raising taxes or even collecting will help. Greece needs to default and leave the Euro. Going to a new currency and get that competitive advantage for the three cores of their economy. The hole is too big to throw money into and without Greece being able to manufacture their way out, little manufacturing in the country compared to other EU states, this will just fester around.

Deutsche Bank is going to get plastered because of the Greeks yes, but Germany can do some bailouts with all their gains from having Greece drop the Euro's value for years.
 
stn

stn

Member
Is there an article or something explaining the lead-up to this moment? I'm interested and would like to get some background information. Anything explaining the whole EU situation would be great. Thanks!
 
N

Negotiator

Member
Theorry said:
Greeks dont like anything wich results in working harder, longer, higher taxes. And compared to other countries like you said. Its not that crazy. In order for them to survive that mindset needs to change with the Euro or with the Drachma.
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Greeks are lazy indeed:

20150313_Greece_FO.jpg


Oh wait...
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Today Greeks are the one being branded as lazy and a people who don't work hard, but the same who make such claims will soon say the Italians are too, then the Portuguese, the Spaniards, and even the French. They already think so, the opportunity to attack just hasn't arrived, yet.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
Theorry said:
Jup keep playing the racist card like its nothing.
Click to expand...

"Playing the race card" is usually a phrased used by people who don't like how it's pointed out that they said something racist, if you weren't aware.

What's your evidence that Greeks are lazy, by the way?
 
O

oti

Banned
This discussion is going south.

So it's going lazy.
Because the south is lazy.
Get it?


Get it?
 
T

TCRS

Banned
hydrophilic attack said:
He helped get the European anti-austerity movement going
His leadership led to the Greeks taking their destiny in their own hands
He got debt reduction for Greece back on the table
He brought refreshing real talk to Europe
He brought much-needed hope to cowed socialists across Europe

Yanis did a damn fine job.

He will be missed.
Click to expand...

lol worshipping a meme politician who took the tough guy persona to comical heights. that guy was ridiculous and useless, even the greek government recognized that. thankfully.
 
K

kamorra

Fuck Cancer
Ether_Snake said:
Today Greeks are the one being branded as lazy and a people who don't work hard, but the same who make such claims will soon say the Italians are too, then the Portuguese, the Spaniards, and even the French. They already think so, the opportunity to attack just hasn't arrived, yet.
Click to expand...
That's already happening for years. I'm from Southern Italy. Not only Northern Europe accuses us of being lazy but our own North hates us too.
 
T

Theorry

Member
Theonik said:
The laziness argument basically defies the very idea of progress. Throughout our history all we have ever done is find ways in which we can be lazier, ie more productive. Working less but smarter IS the whole point. Not that Greece doesn't have this exact issue.
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Lol nice one. ;)
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
TCRS said:
lol worshipping a meme politician who took the tough guy persona to comical heights. that guy was ridiculous and useless, even the greek government recognized that. thankfully.
Click to expand...

Like him or not, none of those are lies. Your retort is flimsy at best. He had a role and he played it well. Much better than many thought, dare I say.
 
H

Hyperactivity

Banned
Coming from an outside perspective here, but listening and reading about how lazy Greeks supposedly are just reminds me of the Tea Party conservatives calling poor people, African Americans, and Hispanics lazy welfare people

The whole poor=lazy bullshit

And in what situation do you want to sound like you're from the fucking tea party?
 
I

itsgreen

Member
Relaxed Muscle said:
Isn't he from holland?

Oh, sweet irony.
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That stat isn't the average of all people or from all people who can work (18-67), but from all people that have a job. The Dutch have a lot of part time workers... woman who work less hours to take care of children and such...
 
R

Rafy

Member
Banks to remain closed... Fuck my life, I am already late for rent and this does not help since it takes a while for a wire transfer to Italy.
 
N

Negotiator

Member
Theonik said:
The laziness argument basically defies the very idea of progress. Throughout our history all we have ever done is find ways in which we can be lazier, ie more productive. Working less but smarter IS the whole point. Not that Greece doesn't have this exact issue.
Click to expand...
I agree that technology/industrialization helps countries to become more productive (aka work less and produce more).

That's why I asked why Germany doesn't help Greece by building some factories or something along those lines... and the answer is basically "lolnope, Germany only cares about itself".

This union is doomed to fail due to selfishness...
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
Maybe people who work for a living should have solidarity with other people who work for a living against the people who live off their misery.
 
S

SkyOdin

Member
Man said:
Doesn't mean that they're good workers by any means. edit: beaten by stats.
Click to expand...

On what basis would you claim that they are not good workers? Is there any evidence that they are not? Or is it just widely held stereotypes that they are not?
 
O

oti

Banned
Hyperactivity said:
Coming from an outside perspective here, but listening and reading about how lazy Greeks supposedly are just reminds me of the Tea Party conservatives calling poor people, African Americans, and Hispanics lazy welfare people

The whole poor=lazy bullshit

And in what situation do you want to sound like you're from the fucking tea party?
Click to expand...

Ah, I don't know if I would go that far. I wouldn't call Greeks lazy but I would call them inefficient. The system itself is bloated and inefficient. That's just a fact.

The other aspect is just a cultural thing. I'm a Greek living in Germany and even I can't really understand how Greeks can be relaxed and drink their coffee at the kafeteria as if nothing happened. Then you see all the unfinished buildings, marode streets, broken educational system etc. It just doesn't add up with their (formally) high wages, high pensions and benefits.

You saw that in Germany and you asked youself: "How is that system still working?" And nobody could answer you that question.

Anyway, I think is side tracked a bit. Greeks aren't lazy, Northern Europeans aren't perfect working robots.
 
P

PdotMichael

Banned
Sadly, productivity and working hours aren't the same. 35-37 working hours is the sweetspot for efficiency and one of the first things you learn in management 101 courses.

Something is off if >42h is common for the average employee in Greece.
 
C

chadskin

Member
tapantaola said:
That's why I asked why Germany doesn't help Greece by building some factories or something along those lines... and the answer is basically "lolnope, Germany only cares about itself".

This union is doomed to fail due to selfishness...
Click to expand...

I think someone did say it already. The German govt can't tell a company where it should build factories, it's capitalism, Germany does not own these companies. The Greek govt has to sweeten the deal for VW, Mercedes or whoever with incentives that makes it worthwhile (i.e. as cheap as possible, at best cheaper than anywhere else) for them to manufacture there. VW for instance has lots of factories in Spain. Others (e.g. Nissan) build cars in Spain, as well. That likely involves lots of subsidies for VW, Nissan and others from the Spanish state.
 
N

Negotiator

Member
chadskin said:
I think someone did say it already. The German govt can't tell a company where it should build factories, it's capitalism, Germany does not own these companies. The Greek govt has to sweeten the deal for VW, Mercedes or whoever with incentives that makes it worthwhile (i.e. as cheap as possible, at best cheaper than anywhere else) for them to manufacture there. VW for instance has lots of factories in Spain. Others (e.g. Nissan) build cars in Spain, as well. That likely involves lots of subsidies for VW, Nissan and others from the Spanish state.
Click to expand...
Greece used to have factories when it had its own cheaper currency...

Greece is trying really hard to have a primary surplus, so asking them to subsidize German car companies is absurd to say the least. German exports are already subsidized indirectly thanks to Greece pushing down the euro (it's not as cheap as the drachma, but it's definitely cheaper than the DM -> good enough for Germany, but not good enough for Greece).
 
P

pigeon

Banned
kess said:
Yeah, but...
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This should not be surprising if you've been reading this thread. Worker productivity is mostly a function of capital and industry. Greece has low-growth industries and isn't heavily industrialized, at least partially because it wasn't bombed in WWII and so wasn't rebuilt at Allied expense (the original source of German and Japanese industrial advantage). So of course it has lower worker productivity per hour. There's only so much oil in the olive.
 
J

jamesmccloud

Member
Alabamaman said:
They're not lazy but corrupt. At least we pay our taxes. Without a working tax collection system Greece will never stand on its own feet.
Click to expand...

This was one of the cornerstones that got Syriza elected. They've been serious about getting taxation working and corrupt business fined, much more so than any previous Greek government.

It would be a wise move from other EU countries to lend them a hand in their work to completely rework the Greek taxation as well as making corrupt oligarchs and business families accountable.

But of course this doesn't fit the "god damn Syriza commies must stop them" creed that is so common among EU politicians.
 
O

oti

Banned
Alabamaman said:
They're not lazy but corrupt. At least we pay our taxes. Without a working tax collection system Greece will never stand on its own feet.
Click to expand...

It's not as easy as you think it is.
Yes, paying taxes is crucial and evading is the worst thing a nation can do to itself. But what if all the rich and all the big companies do it and you're just a small family trying to get to your next paycheck? Corruption is everywhere, it's blatant, your media does it, the company you work for (if you are employed at all) does it. What's more important to you? Doing your duty or have enough money to pay your bills and live a better life and feed your family?

Don't try to answer these questions, your answers don't mean anything if you haven't seen the misery that is poverty in Greece for yourself.

I've personally seen a fakelaki changing pockets. I couldn't believe my eyes and I asked what the hell happened. It was despicable, it was dishonest. But, as Greek relatives called it, a necessity. Business as usual. For everyone. The same people now own next to nothing and ask me for money. They ask a student for money.

Greece needs a reset from within. Nothing else can help fixing the broken mess that is the Greek system. But don't point fingers too eagerly at humans trying to get by. You don't know their stories and the hells they had to go through.
 
J

jamesmccloud

Member
pigeon said:
This should not be surprising if you've been reading this thread. Worker productivity is mostly a function of capital and industry. Greece has low-growth industries and isn't heavily industrialized, at least partially because it wasn't bombed in WWII and so wasn't rebuilt at Allied expense (the original source of German and Japanese industrial advantage). So of course it has lower worker productivity per hour. There's only so much oil in the olive.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Worker productivity is a misguided statistic in many ways – for starters, it mostly accounts for private profits and as Mr. Baumol so aptly reminded few years ago, misrepresents public work such as healthcare and education. Hours worked isn't problem free either, but already much more apt comparison.

In general it isn't that useful to take single points in time and hold "Worker Heroes of the European Democratic Republics" statistical competitions...
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
chadskin said:
I think someone did say it already. The German govt can't tell a company where it should build factories, it's capitalism, Germany does not own these companies. The Greek govt has to sweeten the deal for VW, Mercedes or whoever with incentives that makes it worthwhile (i.e. as cheap as possible, at best cheaper than anywhere else) for them to manufacture there. VW for instance has lots of factories in Spain. Others (e.g. Nissan) build cars in Spain, as well. That likely involves lots of subsidies for VW, Nissan and others from the Spanish state.
Click to expand...

The short and lazy answer is good infrastructure and competitive work force on top of tax breaks. The smarter one includes lower salaries as well as spineless unions.

My girlfriend works at one of those factories and the contract she's got after getting hired back has as fuck all to do with the one she had before the crisis. A massive 30% cut at her starting salary, more downtime with terrible conditions and a heck of a lot of uncertainty (people with indefinite contracts used to be set for life in the company, but now they can and they will fire you on the spot for the smallest thing only to be replaced by some cheaper newbie) means her position has gone from being a great job for many Spaniards to just another mileurista (people earning €1k per month).
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
fanboi said:
Yeah, bloody mediterranians, all you are good for is a vaccation spot in the sun for us hard working, honest, northerenrnrns.
Click to expand...

You're still just bitter you got wrecked by Aragon.
 
C

chadskin

Member
PdotMichael said:
Sadly, productivity and working hours aren't the same. 35-37 working hours is the sweetspot for efficiency and one of the first things you learn in management 101 courses.

Something is off if >42h is common for the average employee in Greece.
Click to expand...

And sadly, theory and practice aren't the same either. If you look at this comparison for full-time jobs only:

Bashtee said:
here you can see a comparison of the fulltime jobs (in german).
Click to expand...

It's (on average!) way above 35-37 hours a week, much more in line with what I've come to know in terms of Germany. I personally don't know anyone who works less than 40 hours a week, you'll either have to be in a union (and even then it's not guaranteed to be <40 hours) or in the public sector.

tapantaola said:
Greece used to have factories when it had its own cheaper currency...

Greece is trying really hard to have a primary surplus, so asking them to subsidize German car companies is absurd to say the least. German exports are already subsidized indirectly thanks to Greece pushing down the euro (it's not as cheap as the drachma, but it's definitely cheaper than the DM -> good enough for Germany, but not good enough for Greece).
Click to expand...

Welcome to capitalism. Nokia shut down its factory in Bochum in 2008 the second they didn't receive subsidies from the state anymore and moved the factory to Romania. The Opel owner GM shut down one factory in Germany because the state didn't want to subsidize it. The list goes on.

Germany can help with improving the infrastructure and all that but it simply can't tell companies where they should do their business.
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
jamesmccloud said:
This was one of the cornerstones that got Syriza elected. They've been serious about getting taxation working and corrupt business fined, much more so than any previous Greek government.

It would be a wise move from other EU countries to lend them a hand in their work to completely rework the Greek taxation as well as making corrupt oligarchs and business families accountable.

But of course this doesn't fit the "god damn Syriza commies must stop them" creed that is so common among EU politicians.
Click to expand...

You mean like the assistance the UK offered / provided, that George Osborne spoke about earlier today:

He tells MPs that Britain has sent tax officials out on secondment in recent years, to assist with revenue collection.

Unfortunately, tax collection has &#8220;almost dried up&#8221; since the crisis escalated.
Click to expand...

You would think the crisis would necessitate escalating collection rather than letting it fall by the wayside, go figure :p
 
R

Relaxed Muscle

Member
chadskin said:
I think someone did say it already. The German govt can't tell a company where it should build factories, it's capitalism, Germany does not own these companies. The Greek govt has to sweeten the deal for VW, Mercedes or whoever with incentives that makes it worthwhile (i.e. as cheap as possible, at best cheaper than anywhere else) for them to manufacture there. VW for instance has lots of factories in Spain. Others (e.g. Nissan) build cars in Spain, as well. That likely involves lots of subsidies for VW, Nissan and others from the Spanish state.
Click to expand...

Cheap labor and incentives can only help you that much. Several factories and multinationals leaved Spain these past years for cheaper countries.

And that's not the kind of nation we should be aiming for, we shouldn't go back to be a cheap production factory like in the 80's.
 
Wiktor

Wiktor

Member
tapantaola said:
I agree that technology/industrialization helps countries to become more productive (aka work less and produce more).

That's why I asked why Germany doesn't help Greece by building some factories or something along those lines... and the answer is basically "lolnope, Germany only cares about itself".

This union is doomed to fail due to selfishness...
Click to expand...

EU isn;t communistic state. If Greeks want those factories they need to be competitive. So it means accepting far smaller pay than german workers. Unless they're cheaper nobody will move those factories there.
Greece isn't a country where standards of living can reasonably be expected to compare to Germany and it won't be for a long long time. If somebody is expecting otherwise he's fooling himself.
 
petran79

petran79

Banned
Alabamaman said:
Raising taxes maybe? Greeks don't like taxes. Those measures are tame by comparison to what we have in Finland.
Click to expand...

Greece was only able to survive because the only ones who raised money from taxes and provided cover to this government were the middle class, mainly the public servants
 
N

Negotiator

Member
AdrianWerner said:
EU isn;t communistic state. If Greeks want those factories they need to be competitive. So it means accepting far smaller pay than german workers. Unless they're cheaper nobody will move those factories there.
Greece isn't a country where standards of living can reasonably be expected to compare to Germany and it won't be for a long long time. If somebody is expecting otherwise he's fooling himself.
Click to expand...
That's why Greece needs its own currency. Thanks for reinforcing my point. Greece used to have factories back in the 70s/80s.

And regarding EU and about it being communistic or not, you could argue that CAP is a communistic practice (centrally planned agriculture). :p No wonder some people (especially British ones) call it the "EUSSR". Too much bureaucracy and too little substance... the EU also needs plenty of reforms.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
Osiris said:
You would think the crisis would necessitate escalating collection rather than letting it fall by the wayside, go figure :p
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You can only collect money that exists. The Greek economy is pretty much dead so collections have plummeted the banks are closed.
 
K

kamorra

Fuck Cancer
fanboi said:
Yeah, bloody mediterranians, all you are good for is a vaccation spot in the sun for us hard working, honest, northerenrnrns.
Click to expand...
At least we try to please you, right? Imagine how hard this is for us lazy, corrupt, career criminals. :(
 
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