travisbickle
Member
They also need long-term graphs that look like this:
Look how tiny it makes the current debt seem.
Yeah, that's late capitalism according to Marx. Maybe socialism will start before the end of the century after all.
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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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Yeah, that's late capitalism according to Marx. Maybe socialism will start before the end of the century after all.
SymbiantXenos
Member
"@GreekAnalyst 16s16 seconds ago
.@AAthanasopoulos confirms that there was no Greek proposal at the #Eurogroup"
So that deal within 48 hours? Unsurprising that they continue to play games. Not as if their banks are on the verge of collapse or anything.
.@AAthanasopoulos confirms that there was no Greek proposal at the #Eurogroup"
So that deal within 48 hours? Unsurprising that they continue to play games. Not as if their banks are on the verge of collapse or anything.
Coriolanus
Banned
Indeed, which is why Yanis initial line of thinking was that they should either truly get together and bro it out for greater utopic USE stuff, or just break it off.
Wait what? Didn't we get reports that were in line with "meet new greek proposal, same as old greek proposal'? Ffs i hate twitter news.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
It's ok, Greece is going to print drachmas, so everyone wins!
Tsipras has to be trolling and secretly printing drachma at this point.
I thought they were open for a new Greek proposal?
Maybe they could have yields that look like this
Or economic performance like this if they took inspiration from the US on how things are done. And I mean the US hasn't been smart, but they're not as dumb as the troika.
Even the Greeks have argued that their peak was unsustainable because it was fueled by borrowing that outpaced improvements in productivity. If that's the case, then comparing GDP to the peak during the bubble days is not exactly a good measure of health.
SymbiantXenos
Member
That would have been at least something to discuss today. It's in the best interest of all partys to get this solved asap.
That's a fake issue. Estonia or Slovakia don't have to help Greece. Actually nobody should help Greece with money from now on. But ironically this is exactly what EU and IMF want now, to continue to give money to Greece (under the austerity agreement). So again instead of focusing on the economical solution we get political statements.
Coriolanus
Banned
Greek Prez to Tusk: Plz understand
And guardian on multiple sources confirming no new proposals today.
i don't even know how to interpret that.
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And guardian on multiple sources confirming no new proposals today.
i don't even know how to interpret that.
Wiktor
Member
It's pretty hard to expect countries who keep living in those worse standards to fund greeks's living better than they do. In reality those poorer countries won't have to do much, but after this referendum Greece lost most of their widespread support among other countries. Logic has left the building long ago.
Who is he writing to? Afaik Prokopis Pavlopoulos is the Greeks President.
Is the letter for the "dear ECB president" ?
ClosingADoor
Member
Couldn't they tell before a big meeting they got nothing to show? Seems like such a huge waste of time for everyone this way.
I think I would be Ok with that
But it would probably need an enormous political enterprise and not just be the result of "a market recalibrating" itself. Trusting that there will be some point in the future where something will eventually happen on its own might just lead to endless "delays" and "patchworks" instead of meaningful change.
Theonik
Member
Writing it to himself.
Coriolanus
Banned
Thats a very nice narrative, but whatever support Greece had was already gone about one month after Syriza got elected. Was the time it took for the other debtor nations to shift from "yeah, we kinda support that" to "sorry mate, moar austerity for you".
To Donald Tusk. Fixed.
Theonik
Member
What I need to know is what Varoufakis did to these people's wives.
Wiktor
Member
It was "sorry mate, moar austerity for you" in general public's eyes. Now it has switched to "let them starve"
Coriolanus
Banned
Bike, leather jacked and murse, mate. Still remember how the press pounced on him after his visit to Osborne.
Potahto potato.
They rejected it? I thought it's still being pushed. Guaranteed incomes are being considered in Canada and Denmark now, too. I bet most of the world will have them before the United States does, even though the country actually has a system of this kind for Alaska.
MonorailCat
Member
From "agreement within 24 hours"
To "sorry, dog ate our proposals. we write new ones tomorrow. promise!"
To "sorry, dog ate our proposals. we write new ones tomorrow. promise!"
It's all about growth, a lot of assumptions rely on it. Many feel that Greece's debt can be serviced so long as they're growing at a faster pace than their service payments, but the conditions of their loans (austerity) puts downward pressure. The primary surplus' they're forced to run curtails how they can grow. Govt should step in a bit since demand has essentially been destroyed. Hard to just keep cutting back, or increase taxes, and not put a damper on growth. Definitely should do a better job of tax collection however and find other sources of revenue.
Check this out during your free time.
PdotMichael
Banned
Theonik
Member
You're right. It was the government that opposed it. The referendum is still happening in 2016.
If the bank is unable to repossess my home arguably it was only the bank that benefited.
In fact you didn't even pay my mortgage, you loaned me money to pay it! BASTARD!
HEY! LEAVE MY SHIPGIRL FIGURINES ALONE!
shinra-bansho
Member
Thanks, will have a gander at some point, LJ11.
Also, the FT is now reporting similarly that no new proposal was brought to the meeting of finance ministers. Apparently a new proposal will be brought tomorrow.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/2c6a913c-2472-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c.html#axzz3fDHBIgzG
I guess the question is how long can the banks trundle along.
Also, the FT is now reporting similarly that no new proposal was brought to the meeting of finance ministers. Apparently a new proposal will be brought tomorrow.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/2c6a913c-2472-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c.html#axzz3fDHBIgzG
I guess the question is how long can the banks trundle along.
If you ask him for the money (and with interest), you just helped the bank. He still has to pay the loan to you, nothing changed for him (except for more interest to be paid).
Coriolanus
Banned
Depends, was i in any risk of losing the house if i didn't pay?
"Paying the loan" would imply the debt does not exist anymore, which is not the case. Bad analogy.
PdotMichael
Banned
Getting kicked out of the capital markets is quite close to losing the house I would claim.
Right now Greece gets loans with such low interest rates which it could only dream after a default.
Theonik
Member
But they are kicked from the capital markets anyway.
There is no mortgage because some smart guys (no irony here) considered these kind of loans the safer ones for a long time. So you keep the house either way. But you get your electricity and gas cut out because you can't pay them. But PdotMichael will lend you some money (with good interest - for him) to pay those if you agree not to eat 15 days a month.
Nobody is lending Greece anything on the free market.
Coriolanus
Banned
Were interest rates the only cost that those loans entailed?
If you loan me money so I can pay the minimum payment on my mortgage then you've given me a month of breathing room at the end of which I owe you AND the bank just as much. If your condition for this is also that I give away my car for peanuts then I'm even worse off than before because now I can't drive to my job to make money to pay you and the rest of my mortgage in another month. Then next month you go Oh HMM.. I'll lend you some more money so you can stumble on for another month but you've got to stop with these fancy veggies and just eat cheap ramen. Now I'm malnourished and have no car but hey aren't you great for 'helping' me.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I'm sick of these mortgage comparisons.
Can someone explain it by comparing Greece to a railway? Or maybe a space station?
Can someone explain it by comparing Greece to a railway? Or maybe a space station?
M°°nblade;171174308 said:Yes, how dare they pay only half of it.
Never mind the new loans that had to be made.
They didn't pay half of it either. And the debt that WAS written off was held by private investors, not banks AFAIK.
New loans were made so that the old loans could be repaid, but that charade is near over now.
Coriolanus
Banned
M°°nblade;171174308 said:Yes, how dare they pay only half of it.
Never mind the new loans that had to be made.
If they aren't the only ones that beneffited from the loan (leaving aside the argument if it was to their benefit for a moment), why should they be the only ones on the hook for the money?
Now you've just killed my fun.
Theonik
Member
We should start using marriage analogies.
They forced them in accordance to the law to invest their cash reserves into bonds which they haircut a week later.
Since they belong to the public, they get no say in this matter.
Part of the debt that was written down was forced to public institutions like universities and hospitals, insurance funds etc.
They forced them in accordance to the law to invest their cash reserves into bonds which they haircut a week later.
Since they belong to the public, they get no say in this matter.
PdotMichael
Banned
At the beginning of the year it was calculated that Greece would only pay 2.6pc of it's GDP to serve it's debt. This is not a crazy amount and the debt to GDP are quite misleading because of the conditions of the loans which are in favour of Greece like Greece could even get the interest back from the ECB if Greece can meet the bailout conditions.
Coriolanus
Banned
Which it can't meet unless it hits near-Chinese growth. Either way, wasn't what i asked. You know that those conditions came with resolutions that, when adopted, also contributed towards higher unemployment and a whole host of other factors. Thus the matter of cost.
I quite doubt that any country, five years ago, would've ever agreed to austerity if the population had been made aware that the cost would also entail 20%+ unemployment and 50% youth unemployment. Alas, hindsight. 20/20.
Theonik
Member
Greece is already owed 1.9bn Euro for that but the Troika is refusing to release that as a bargaining chip and decided to instead let them not pay the IMF.
PdotMichael
Banned
China like growing wasn't part of the bail out conditions, no.
QuicheFontaine
Member
My two suggestions are way more fun than houses!
alexandros
Banned
Amazing analogy.
Well, since you asked...
Back in the day GreekRail wanted to join the EURail. But Greekrail's rails weren't shiny enough so they painted it with silver paint and GermRail finally accepted them. Unfortunately, Euro trains were more expensive so they had to take out a loan but they figured they would make the money back soon enough-
Then the Great Derailing of 2008 happened. The world found out that GreekRail's rails were only painted with silver and no one wanted to use it any more. Because GreekRail was part of EURail they couldn't lower prices to be competitive and the debt mounted. EURail, led by GermRail, promised to loan GreekRail money as long as they in turn promised to fire half their staff and close the rail that ran through "unprofitable" towns. But because GreekRail still had the same prices as GermRail, and now worse service, people still wouldn't use it so the debt was still too high. GermRail responded by saying that more cuts were needed to make GreekRail profitable.
GreekRail's board of directors decided that enough was enough - even if they kept cutting for 15 years the debt wouldn't be manageable and decided that they either needed debt forgiveness or to restructure with lower prices. But they got nowhere with EURail. To show EURail that this wasn't manageable they organized a vote with its passengers whether or not they could accept more cuts on the chance that maybe the rail would be better in 15 years. The passengers voted for No.
Now GreekRail needs to decide on whether they want to accept more money and cuts from EURail or declare bankruptcy and restructure with lower prices under the new name of HellRail with Drachmas trains which, while not as fancy as Euro trains, would be cheaper. But a bankruptcy could also mean that they wouldn't be able to pay their employees or service the railway which could mean that for some time their customers wouldn't be able to travel the way they used to. It's not an easy decision.
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