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[norinrad]

If you loan me money so I can pay the minimum payment on my mortgage then you've given me a month of breathing room at the end of which I owe you AND the bank just as much. If your condition for this is also that I give away my car for peanuts then I'm even worse off than before because now I can't drive to my job to make money to pay you and the rest of my mortgage in another month. Then next month you go Oh HMM.. I'll lend you some more money so you can stumble on for another month but you've got to stop with these fancy veggies and just eat cheap ramen. Now I'm malnourished and have no car but hey aren't you great for 'helping' me.

That's nice Azih but Greece knew all of this, I'm sure they were aware of what the loan sharks(IMF) has been doing to 3rd world countries for decades. They've been pretty relaxed with the Greeks so far and some of their debt would probably be forgiving if they change their victim attitude and come up with proposals reasonable to all involved.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Well, since you asked...

Back in the day GreekRail wanted to join the EURail. But Greekrail's rails weren't shiny enough so they painted it with silver paint and GermRail finally accepted them. Unfortunately, Euro trains were more expensive so they had to take out a loan but they figured they would make the money back soon enough-

Then the Great Derailing of 2008 happened. The world found out that GreekRail's rails were only painted with silver and no one wanted to use it any more. Because GreekRail was part of EURail they couldn't lower prices to be competitive and the debt mounted. EURail, led by GermRail, promised to loan GreekRail money as long as they in turn promised to fire half their staff and close the rail that ran through "unprofitable" towns. But because GreekRail still had the same prices as GermRail, and now worse service, people still wouldn't use it so the debt was still too high. GermRail responded by saying that more cuts were needed to make GreekRail profitable.

GreekRail's board of directors decided that enough was enough - even if they kept cutting for 15 years the debt wouldn't be manageable and decided that they either needed debt forgiveness or to restructure with lower prices. But they got nowhere with EURail. To show EURail that this wasn't manageable they organized a vote with its passengers whether or not they could accept more cuts on the chance that maybe the rail would be better in 15 years. The passengers voted for No.

Now GreekRail needs to decide on whether they want to accept more money and cuts from EURail or declare bankruptcy and restructure with lower prices under the new name of HellRail with Drachmas trains which, while not as fancy as Euro trains, would be cheaper. But a bankruptcy could also mean that they wouldn't be able to pay their employees or service the railway which could mean that for some time their customers wouldn't be able to travel the way they used to. It's not an easy decision.

Perfection.

 

[KingSnake]

I'm sick of these mortgage comparisons.

Can someone explain it by comparing Greece to a railway? Or maybe a space station?

You own a railway. But you don't have enough sleepers/ties for it. So you need to borrow some to keep the train moving. You need to borrow also money to pay the salaries and pensions of the railway employees. And you pay them more than they produce. At one point the bank decides that your debt is unsustainable although it was unsustainable also 10 years ago and they kept lending you money and enjoying the nice interest rates thye got. So they decide to stop lending you money, right? No, wrong! PdotMichael steps in as a great saviour and says he will keep lending you money under several light conditions: cut the pensions in half, fire 25% of the employees and cut the salary for the others. Sounds still reasonable, no? Just that now he won't lend you money for new sleepers and you have to use the old ones from the track and pay the money back. Some years pass by and PdotMichael decides that it's time for a new agreement. You're even more unsustainable as before, you barely have money for the train's fuel and you can't pay back your debts at the needed pace. But for whatever reason PdotMichael wants to continue to give you money, but under the condition that now you don't buy any fuel and the workers must push the train and at the same time move the old sleepers from the back to the front. And the train must go faster than before. He's so generous.

Edit: beaten, damn. Lost time watching the news.

 

[EloKa]

..

beautiful story. You only missed the point when GreekRail got asked why they need 2 times more train conductors while they have 5 times less passangers and why the passangers can mostly ride for free

 

[chadskin]

One senior euro zone official told Reuters as euro zone finance ministers were meeting in Brussels: "They (Greek officials) say they will submit a new request and outline of proposals, maybe tomorrow."

A second euro zone official also said no formal proposal for credit had been submitted on Tuesday, adding: "If they really plan to present something formal tomorrow, they may not find anyone to read it."

Asked about those comments, however, one Greek government official said: "Some are maintaining we don’t have proposals. Is that the same as not having 47 pages which we had the Monday before last, and today?"

"Is it really that we don’t have proposals or is it that they don’t like our proposals?”

A second Greek official said: "The Greek government came with the proposals which hadn't been discussed by the Eurogroup last week."

Getting comical.

 

[Theonik]

This is some next level shit.

 

[Nivash]

beautiful story. You only missed the point when GreekRail got asked why they need 2 times more train conductors while they have 5 times less passangers and why the passangers can mostly ride for free

Hey, it took me half an hour to write that metaphor! If I needed to account for all of the intricacies of the Greek crisis I would have ended up with a novel.

Then again I guess having "The Great Greek Derail: An Allegory on Greek Crisis" (audio book narrated by Dan Carlin) on my CV wouldn't have been the worst thing ever.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Well, since you asked...

Back in the day GreekRail wanted to join the EURail. But Greekrail's rails weren't shiny enough so they painted it with silver paint and GermRail finally accepted them. Unfortunately, Euro trains were more expensive so they had to take out a loan but they figured they would make the money back soon enough-

Then the Great Derailing of 2008 happened. The world found out that GreekRail's rails were only painted with silver and no one wanted to use it any more. Because GreekRail was part of EURail they couldn't lower prices to be competitive and the debt mounted. EURail, led by GermRail, promised to loan GreekRail money as long as they in turn promised to fire half their staff and close the rail that ran through "unprofitable" towns. But because GreekRail still had the same prices as GermRail, and now worse service, people still wouldn't use it so the debt was still too high. GermRail responded by saying that more cuts were needed to make GreekRail profitable.

GreekRail's board of directors decided that enough was enough - even if they kept cutting for 15 years the debt wouldn't be manageable and decided that they either needed debt forgiveness or to restructure with lower prices. But they got nowhere with EURail. To show EURail that this wasn't manageable they organized a vote with its passengers whether or not they could accept more cuts on the chance that maybe the rail would be better in 15 years. The passengers voted for No.

Now GreekRail needs to decide on whether they want to accept more money and cuts from EURail or declare bankruptcy and restructure with lower prices under the new name of HellRail with Drachmas trains which, while not as fancy as Euro trains, would be cheaper. But a bankruptcy could also mean that they wouldn't be able to pay their employees or service the railway which could mean that for some time their customers wouldn't be able to travel the way they used to. It's not an easy decision.

You. I like you.

Edit:

Dan Carlin would be perefect to narrate <3

Edit2:

I would not ride on a service called "HellRail", no matter how good the service!

 

[Ether_Snake]

I'm guessing Varoufakis' resignation delayed the presentation of a new proposal.

 

[Coriolanus]

You. I like you.

Edit:

Dan Carlin would be perefect to narrate <3

But then we'd only get that description two months from now. Which makes one wonder if a proposal would've been presented by then.

Alternate rail name is Railenic.

 

[EloKa]

Hey, it took me half an hour to write that metaphor! If I needed to account for all of the intricacies of the Greek crisis I would have ended up with a novel.

Then again I guess having "The Great Greek Derail: An Allegory on Greek Crisis" (audio book narrated by Dan Carlin) on my CV wouldn't have been the worst thing ever.

I'd actually buy that. 50% of the sales should be donated to greece as well.
You should only change the title to "My big fat Greek derail"

 

[KingSnake]

Hey, it took me half an hour to write that metaphor! If I needed to account for all of the intricacies of the Greek crisis I would have ended up with a novel.

Then again I guess having "The Great Greek Derail: An Allegory on Greek Crisis" (audio book narrated by Dan Carlin) on my CV wouldn't have been the worst thing ever.

You should start a kickstarter or a Patreon for this.

 

[Savitar]

Getting comical.

I'm getting It's a Wonderful Life flashbacks.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

"The Greek Analyst &#8207;@GreekAnalyst 4m 4 minutes ago

I am just gonna drop this here, but don't get v excited.

(There's hope)"

Let's hope so.

 

[ElTorro]

I'm guessing Varoufakis' resignation delayed the presentation of a new proposal.

Do you really believe that? After everything that happened in the last weeks?

 

[Kathian]

I'm guessing Varoufakis' resignation delayed the presentation of a new proposal.

His resignation was planned when the party started looking at how to structure his renegotiations. Its been a week; coming with nothing is just odd and suggests a split within the party.

 

[pigeon]

If Greece can't handle their health care on their own and expects the EU to do everything for them, then maybe their next proposal should include a EU-Governing council for Greece that replaces their current government.

Why bother? The EU has already created one.

No, I think they just don't have the right amount of debt. Maybe if they accumulate a bit more it'll turn things around.

I mean look at those graphs, it goes up gradually a tiny amount over years and could have been reversed easily, what they need is to floor it like a real country:

This is actually the correct answer.

Why was Merkel wrong about austerity? It's worked in every other country and has rightly or wrongly kept the Eurozone together, it's only the Greeks who haven't used the time to sort out tax evaders, corruption and archaic working practices that are about to be given the boot and she's used the time to build up the defences to limit contagion.

I mean, it depends what your goal is. It has worked great in forcing other countries to submit to EU rule while their economies collapse. In terms of making their economies work, it clearly has failed utterly.

You still have fundamentally the same problem as now. What's a beneficial fiscal policy for one bloc is bad for the other, whichever way you slice it. Since this is so overwhelmingly self evidence, what's the end game for the currency union here? It feels like when you know you need to break up with someone but it's not that bad so why not just delay it another weekend, until after Christmas, maybe wait til after we get back from holiday etc. Next thing you know, you're getting stabbed in the larynx at the age of 42 as two decades of seething resentments come out in one mighty stab after her work christmas party where that fucking whore got off with Jim the IT guy, I fucking knew she liked Jim, you could just tell the way she was always telling stories, oh "Jim told me this really funny story earlier", "Oh, Jim said he's been to that Italian restaurant in town, he said it was really nice but stay away from the oysters, I wish we eat Oysters and did cultural things CyclopsRock" WELL I'M FUCKING SICK OF IT ALRIGHT?

I mean, yeah, why not break it off now?

...I...agree. Is everything okay at home?

 

[cyberheater]

So according to the BBC news.

Greece has submitted "no concrete proposals" for a new bailout, at a key meeting of eurozone finance ministers, Malta's PM says.

They are hilarious.

At this point I think a Grexit is inevitable.

 

[LJ11]

According to others, Tsakalotos made a verbal presentation to the group and it was "good" according to sources. Honestly, who cares. There's too much misinformation out there, they report when someone farts. I'm sure they didn't go in empty handed. Results are all that matter.

What a fucking sideshow.

 

[Locke Lamora]

Some comments by several european politicians can be fount here atm: https://twitter.com/OpenEurope

 

[oti]

So wait, did Greece's dog eat the new proposals or what?

 

[vinnygambini]

 

[SymbiantXenos]

So wait, did Greece's dog eat the new proposals or what?

Nai

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The trick is to quickly identifty an action from the last meeting's minutes that someone else didn't do.

"Well, Malta's FiMi said they were going to bring biscuits to this meeting. Where are they?"

 

[Ether_Snake]

His resignation was planned when the party started looking at how to structure his renegotiations. Its been a week; coming with nothing is just odd and suggests a split within the party.

Either buying time for the drachma, or the new finance minister needed more time. A split is wishful thinking.

 

[chadskin]

mathieuvonrohr: GREEK GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL SAYS PROPOSALS GREEK GOVT MADE LAST TUESDAY STILL STAND, WITH SOME IMPROVEMENTS (Reuters)

https://twitter.com/mathieuvonrohr/status/618448693793026048

Who cares about the referendum.

 

[oti]

I don't understand how Greece didn't arrive with new proposals. I mean what were they even talking about then?

 

[cyberheater]

I don't understand how Greece didn't arrive with new proposals. I mean what were they even talking about then?

It's baffling.

It's time they were told to pack it in and go home. Europe is bending over backwards for them and they don't give a fuck.

 

[KHarvey16]

It's baffling.

It's time they were told to pack it in and go home. Europe is bending over backwards for them and they don't give a fuck.

Is it really an accepted narrative that they're doing what's best to help Greece?

 

[MonorailCat]

 

[vinnygambini]

Greece must agree to economic reforms in order to secure new aid, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Tuesday as she arrived in Brussels for an emergency summit of eurozone leader, according to news reports. "There is still no basis for negotiations in the [European Stability Mechansim] framework," Merkel said, according to Reuters, referencing the eurozone's permanent bailout facility. "Without solidarity and reforms it's not possible to go where we want to go," Merkel said, according to the report, adding that the negotiations are "not a matter of weeks but of a few days."

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/greece-must-offer-reforms-to-secure-bailout-germanys-merkel-2015-07-07?link=MW_home_latest_news

 

[oti]

It's baffling.

It's time they were told to pack it in and go home. Europe is bending over backwards for them and they don't give a fuck.

I wouldn't call flying to Brussels "bending over backwards". And it's not just Greece's fault that we've all wasted half a decade on this.

 

[sflufan]

OK, the European officials are saying that Greece came to the summit "empty handed", yet Tsipras supposedly briefed President Obama on his proposal.

Sooooo...huh?

 

[Ether_Snake]

They made a verbal proposal, basically the one from last week with a few modifications, and they will make the official one tomorrow. The Finland fm just said the meeting was useful. My feeling is they wanted to meet before presenting it, maybe some behind the scene talks are happening.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

I wonder what people in other countries that had to reform think of this. Especially if we follow the French in giving Greece what they want. Yeah fuck you Spain and Ireland, you had to go through shit but Greece gonna Greece ya know.

Of course it's a great way for The French and also Italy to try and get some leeway in the 3% deficite rule that is continuously staring them in the face. By not coming with a proposal Greece hopes to get the rest of the EU divided. Which can be advantageous for them.

 

[petran79]

THIS

If you ask most people here in Northern Europe whether they care about Ukraine, Hungary or Bulgaria, most would tell you no and won't care if they are being attacked. Ask them the same about Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland or the Netherlands and most would say our way of life and freedom is being attacked and everything should be done to prevent that. A united Europe is just a dream of people who watch too much star trek.

It also matters that current politicians have no vision for Europe or charisma. They're just small fry, resting on the laurels of their predecessors.
Or that image is not promoted anymore.

Whereas back then you had Mitterrand, Kohl, Thatcher, Palme, Reagan, Karamanlis and Papandreou for Greece, Walesa or even the Pope. EU was formed mainly thanks to their effort. Kohl was very critical regarding Merkel's abilities. Of course they were deep in corruption and scandals as well, but they had a vision and found ways to bring it to fruition

 

[cyberheater]

Is it really an accepted narrative that they're doing what's best to help Greece?

Well I guess it's more about saving face at this point as a Grexit would be seen as a massive collective failure.

I wouldn't call flying to Brussels "bending over backwards". And it's not just Greece's fault that we've all wasted half a decade on this.

Yes. I understand this.

Do you think Grexit is inevitable at this point?

 

[MrKaepora]

So according to the BBC news.



They are hilarious.

At this point I think a Grexit is inevitable.

Please, let's end this charade once and for all.

I already give up to care anymore of what happens if Greece exits the euro. At this point I think the Greeks would be better off with a new dracma while they put their house in order (I seriously have my doubts).

But stop with the bullshit.

We have crossed so many deadlines in the vain hope of an agreement that never came and we are running in circles now. It's clear that neither the troika nor the Greek government will budge from their position and the banks and stock market in Greece can't be closed forever because people have to pay bills and companies have to pay their workers, so, let's end this.

 

[oti]

Well I guess it's more about saving face at this point as a Grexit would be seen as a massive collective failure.



Yes. I understand this.

Do you think Grexit is inevitable at this point?

If there is no room for a debt cut than yes. Greece's system is so inefficient, it needs a full reset.

 

[cyberheater]

Please, let's end this charade once and for all.

I already give up to care anymore of what happens if Greece exits the euro. At this point I think the Greeks would be better off with a new dracma while they put their house in order (I seriously have my doubts).

But stop with the bullshit.

We have crossed so many deadlines in the vain hope of an agreement that never came and we are running in circles now. It's clear that neither the troika nor the Greek government will budge from their position and the banks and stock market in Greece can't be closed forever because people have to pay bills and companies have to pay their workers, so, let's end this.

I'm sure they're are lots of Greeks starting to feel the same way and I can understand that.

 

[pigeon]

Well I guess it's more about saving face at this point as a Grexit would be seen as a massive collective failure.



Yes. I understand this.

Do you think Grexit is inevitable at this point?

It's not inevitable as long as Europe retains the power to forgive their debts, which they of course still have.

 

[My words exactly!]

beautiful story. You only missed the point when GreekRail got asked why they need 2 times more train conductors while they have 5 times less passangers and why the passangers can mostly ride for free

He also missed the part where corrupted GreekRail higher ups were bribed by select corrupted Germanrail providers and damaged Greekrail by billions of &#8364; over the years.
Or the part where those same corrupted former Greekrail higher ups actively grouped with GermanRail to sabotage the new Railenic (thanks Coriolanus) proceedings.

 

[Frankfurter]

If there is no room for a debt cut than yes. Greece's system is so inefficient, it needs a full reset.

I still think there won't be a debt cut, not a direct one that is. But rather zero interests on most of the debt for, say, 30, 40 years (which is essentially the same as a debt cut, but it's way easier to sell).

 

[nature boy]

I still think there won't be a debt cut, not a direct one that is. But rather zero interests on most of the debt for, say, 30, 40 years (which is essentially the same as a debt cut, but it's way easier to sell).

Greece already has a favorable debt situation, in terms of interest rates and maturities.

 

[Coriolanus]

I still think there won't be a debt cut, not a direct one that is. But rather zero interests on most of the debt for, say, 30, 40 years (which is essentially the same as a debt cut, but it's way easier to sell).

Was also one of Yanis's pre-election to recently elected ideas. Punt all the debt into a new category that would only have to be paid x years from now at zero to near zero interest. De facto debt forgiveness that aint quite debt forgiveness.

Alas.

Greece already has a favorable debt situation, in terms of interest rates and maturities.

Less terrible than the rest =/= favorable.

 

[maquiladora]

Getting comical.

Ayy...

 

[Funky Papa]

de Volkskrant keeping it classy.

I find repugnant that cartoons such as that one or this one

(or the ones with the Germans being portrayed as nazis) are shaping the popular opinion on the crisis. It's fucking vile and destructive.

 

[le-seb]

I wonder what people in other countries that had to reform think of this. Especially if we follow the French in giving Greece what they want. Yeah fuck you Spain and Ireland, you had to go through shit but Greece gonna Greece ya know.

Someone has to ask the Greeks if they're okay with regular pâté instead of foie gras in their food aid packages.

 

[Theonik]

Someone has to ask the Greeks if they're okay with regular pâté instead of foie gras in their food aid packages.

I hate foie gras so I'm willing to compromise.

 

[maquiladora]

EU Summit on Sunday.

It never ends...