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[Tugatrix]

Finnish FinM:

https://twitter.com/alexstubb/status/620231966382755840

What does this mean, what is progress by finns books?

 

[chadskin]

mathieuvonrohr: Finland's Stubb says Greek parliament has to push through laws by July 15

mathieuvonrohr: Finland's Stubb: Document has far-reaching conditionality. Greek laws by July 15. Tough conditions on prior actions. And privatization funds

https://twitter.com/mathieuvonrohr/

Sounds like they indeed pursue the bridge financing now to be able to negotiate about the ESM bailout program beyond the July 20 deadline. Good way to start rebuilding trust.

 

[nature boy]

"Progress made" doesn't sound like a Grexit.

I think the question is does the Eurogroup believe this government has any intention of implementing what was agreed upon. If the rumors about a new government, sacking some of the more hardcore Syriza members is true, maybe that will help with the trust issue.

 

[Nikodemos]

Finland's Stubb says Greek parliament has to push through laws by July 15

Even the ones previously deemed unconstitutional by Greece's CC?

And what if Syriza and/or ID parliamentarians refuse to acquiesce? Does Stubb/the Eurogroup believe they are merely a rubber-stamp committee?

 

[ElTorro]

The trust issue is a curious one. If Greece passes these laws, the Greek government still has tools to revoke or creatively weaken them again in a few months and restart this circus, doesn't it? I am highly skeptical about the feasibility of forcing an administration to do thing it doesn't want to do. That is hardly a basis for effective and efficient work in the coming months. They should just end this nonsense, let Greece do its thing with a new currency, and give comprehensive support through EU funding for the coming months.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

There's also a distinct possibility that Greece can't actually do it - hardliners might challenge it legally just to take up time.

 

[Reuenthal]

This is a 3 years program, if Syriza agree to it, they will probably do it. But I doubt they will last 3 years. We might even see new pro grexit parties. There is no way to trust that someone will amputate all of his limbs. So a way to solve the trust issue, is to propose bearable solutions that actually improve the situation so that the Greek people will be able to bear with it and not see grexit as the only alternative.

 

[Purkake4]

So you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain?

The Greek government really needs to get some good communication going with its people, not just slogans, threats and better negotiation platforms.

 

[Loona]

Think for a second what "austerity" actually means. It simply means "spend less". It does not say what exactly to spend less on, and it does not even prevent you from spending more where it makes sense, as long as you can afford it. So you can have austerity by getting rid of public sector bloat, privatizing state owned organizations and cutting the defense budget for example. Saves tons of money and nobody is going to starve in the streets. Other European countries did this as well, Germany included, and we're all still very much alive. What's so hard to understand here?

In Portugal it meant the government agreed to privatize the state-owned services that actually turned a profit at fire sale prices in order to pay its debts, which means its financial problems will only get worse in the future.

At the same time, a number of major private companies moved their HQ to the Netherlands for tax benefits, so that's more money that's not helping the country.

I can only imagine how much worse off Greece is.

 

[ElTorro]

 

[KingSnake]

French Finance Minister Michel Sapin, strolling through the summit hall, says German temporary Grexit plan made to "entertain the gallery"

.

 

[Negotiator]

In Portugal it meant the government agreed to privatize the state-owned services that actually turned a profit at fire sale prices in order to pay its debts, which means its fonancial problems will only get worse in the future.

At the same time, a number of major private companies moved their HQ to the Netherlands for tax benefits, so that's more money that's not helping the country.

I can only imagine how much worse off Greece is.

#PortugalSuccessStory

These kind of "reforms" are disastrous... unless you're a neoliberal parasite who benefits from them.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

All we need is Estonia to demand it happening today!

 

[Tugatrix]

#PortugalSuccessStory

These kind of "reforms" are disastrous... unless you're a neoliberal parasite who benefits from them.

He have plenty, Americo Amorim e Soares dos Santos never profited so much

 

[KingSnake]

Martin Schulz, president of the European Parliament, has urged eurozone leaders to strike a deal today.

But on the other hand some of the finmins said first Greek Parliament to legislate the surrender and then deal on 15th. WTF is going on?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

There's also a distinct possibility that Greece can't actually do it - hardliners might challenge it legally just to take up time.

Yeah I'm pretty sure this is what Germany is playing for here. Force Tsipras to try to get a horrible package through parliament, and then sit back and watch as Syriza hardliners (rightly) reject it, causing either Grexit, or the formation of a new government without any pesky socialists.

 

[Nivash]

I'm starting to suspect that those views date back to early 20th century conspiracies like the protocols that were all about debt and inflation used to "enslave" the world. It's like this discourse has been internally rationalized and its roots forgotten. I seeno other explanation for this obsession.

You're right about it being a cultural thing with forgotten roots but you've picked the wrong roots. It actually comes from Protestant values. I say that with (some) authority because it's the same thing up here in Sweden. Debt and borrowing is considered a necessary evil at best and a moral failure at worst.

Protestantism is very austerian. It has a saying that illustrates it quite well: "He who does not work shall not eat". Once you know about it you see the influence everywhere. Austerity is considered the go-to solution for everything. Remember the Swedish austerity program in the 90s? The prime minister at the time, Göran Persson, spawned another even more relevant quote:"He who is in debt is never free" and often talked about the necessity of "tightening the belt". This view of debt permeates society. In later years Swedes have privately started to adopt a more relaxed attitude but even this is almost considered a form of moral failure of society as a whole, or a sign of degradation, both in private conversation and in the media. The greatest success of our previous government is often cited as being how it lowered the state debt - in the middle of a global economic crisis (and at the cost of some cherished societal functions)

The reason Germany (and now Finland, which is also Protestant culturally) keeps pushing austerity probably comes from this conviction. They, and us Swedes too, see no other way. Stimulus and spending your way out of a crisis is basically anathema to our worldview.

 

[mnz]

From the EG draft:

Are the sums getting larger by the hour?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

You're right about it being a cultural thing with forgotten roots but you've picked the wrong roots. It actually comes from Protestant values. I say that with (some) authority because it's the same thing up here in Sweden. Debt and borrowing is considered a necessary evil at best and a moral failure at worst.

Protestantism is very austerian. It has a saying that illustrates it quite well: "He who does not work shall not eat". Once you know about it you see the influence everywhere. Austerity is considered the go-to solution for everything. Remember the Swedish austerity program in the 90s? The prime minister at the time, Göran Persson, spawned another even more relevant quote:"He who is in debt is never free" and often talked about the necessity of "tightening the belt". This view of debt permeates society. In later years Swedes have privately started to adopt a more relaxed attitude but even this is almost considered a form of moral failure of society as a whole, or a sign of degradation, both in private conversation and in the media. The greatest success of our previous government is often cited as being how it lowered the state debt - in the middle of a global economic crisis (and at the cost of some cherished societal functions)

The reason Germany (and now Finland, which is also Protestant culturally) keeps pushing austerity probably comes from this conviction. They, and us Swedes too, see no other way. Stimulus and spending your way out of a crisis is basically anathema to our worldview.

As a fellow Swede, I'd say this assessment is right on the money.

 

[LJ11]

.

LOL

It really is moronic. The $50B asset surrender is also nuts, how do you enforce something like that.

Also, lots of talk with regards to trade surpluses. One way to look at trade/current account is that when you're Current Account surpluses are positive and big for many many years, you're probably accumulating future losses. In the short run you're piling up Savings, in the economic sense, and transferring them to other countries you trade with. At some point you're going to take a hit, banks will take losses, and you're in for a bumpy ride. Just think of it as giving your neighbor country a credit card and telling them to go wild with it.

 

[tokkun]

The trust issue is a curious one. If Greece passes these laws, the Greek government still has tools to revoke or creatively weaken them again in a few months and restart this circus, doesn't it?

Yes, but passing laws is much more politically fraught than enforcing them. Passage requires individual MPs to give their approval and face the political consequences. As such, there is more of a risk of having passage blocked by hardliners and people worried about keeping their jobs. And the political cost of those votes is likely to be much higher after the referendum.

Once the laws are on the books you still need to trust the government to enforce them, but it's no longer an issue of political survival.

 

[KingSnake]

More from Martin Schulz, who says the majority of those in the European Parliament were against a Grexit.

"I really cannot remember, in all my time in European politics, whether I have come across a situation like this.

"This is really all about the European Union. If the EU is going to have any credible force, it is going to have to demonstrate it is capable of solving its own problems."

If EU survives this it will be quite an achievement. And its not even about Greece. Let's say that Greece will accept everything. In maximum 2 years we will be back to this.

 

[Joni]

It really is moronic. The $50B asset surrender is also nuts, how do you enforce something like that.

You sign over a couple of islands to the EU. You keep doing this for every country. In a couple of years, the EU is a real country.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

And a stronger national currency would have helped Germany more when the oil and steel prices were insanly high.

A competive economy stays competive and doesn't rise and fall based on exchange rates. See the examples Swiss and Japan.

Are you immune to facts and data?

Amount of yen you can buy per USD:

Nikkei index:

 

[KingSnake]

Professor of Economics at University College Dublin tweets:
Posted at 16:31

German request for Greece to sign over €50 billion in assets. This is 27% of Greek GDP. In the U.S. this would be €4.5 trillion.
Karl Whelan
WhelanKarl
German request for Greece to sign over €50 billion in assets. This is 27% of Greek GDP. In the U.S. this would be €4.5 trillion.

.

 

[Theonik]

If EU survives this it will be quite an achievement. And its not even about Greece. Let's say that Greece will accept everything. In maximum 2 years we will be back to this.

The EU has become a laughing stock out of all this starting from Merkel stupidly getting the IMF involved in the bailouts.

 

[PJV3]

.

I'd tell them to poke it, I'm sure they would undervalue the assets just to rub it in.

 

[Negotiator]

You're right about it being a cultural thing with forgotten roots but you've picked the wrong roots. It actually comes from Protestant values. I say that with (some) authority because it's the same thing up here in Sweden. Debt and borrowing is considered a necessary evil at best and a moral failure at worst.

Protestantism is very austerian. It has a saying that illustrates it quite well: "He who does not work shall not eat". Once you know about it you see the influence everywhere. Austerity is considered the go-to solution for everything. Remember the Swedish austerity program in the 90s? The prime minister at the time, Göran Persson, spawned another even more relevant quote:"He who is in debt is never free" and often talked about the necessity of "tightening the belt". This view of debt permeates society. In later years Swedes have privately started to adopt a more relaxed attitude but even this is almost considered a form of moral failure of society as a whole, or a sign of degradation, both in private conversation and in the media. The greatest success of our previous government is often cited as being how it lowered the state debt - in the middle of a global economic crisis (and at the cost of some cherished societal functions)

The reason Germany (and now Finland, which is also Protestant culturally) keeps pushing austerity probably comes from this conviction. They, and us Swedes too, see no other way. Stimulus and spending your way out of a crisis is basically anathema to our worldview.

That's exactly what I mean when I say that German economics are religion-driven. It's not a coincidence that debt, guilt and fault are the same word in German (Schuld). Sweden is culturally related to Germany, so I'm not surprised.

This isn't just a North vs South rift... it's also a Protestant vs Catholic/Orthodox rift. Europe is full of rifts... how can you unify this culturally diverse mess?

 

[My words exactly!]

This isn't just a North vs South rift... it's also a Protestant vs Catholic/Orthodox rift. Europe is full of rifts... how can you unify this culturally diverse mess?

 

[jorma]

That's exactly what I mean when I say that German economics are religion-driven. It's not a coincidence that debt, guilt and fault are the same word in German (Schuld). Sweden is culturally related to Germany, so I'm not surprised.

This isn't just a North vs South rift... it's also a Protestant vs Catholic/Orthodox rift. Europe is full of rifts... how can you unify this culturally diverse mess?

Maybe we wont find out until Paradox releases the next Europa Universalis

 

[Theonik]

That's exactly what I mean when I say that German economics are religion-driven. It's not a coincidence that debt, guilt and fault are the same word in German (Schuld). Sweden is culturally related to Germany, so I'm not surprised.

This isn't just a North vs South rift... it's also a Protestant vs Catholic/Orthodox rift. Europe is full of rifts... how can you unify this culturally diverse mess?

Memoranda of Understanding

 

[chadskin]

Reforms Greece has to push through by July 15, "drawn up by eurozone finance ministers which is now being considered at the summit."

By Wednesday this week, in order for negotiations for a new bailout to begin, the eurozone wants Greece’s parliament to agree in principle on a raft of reforms:

1. Streamlining VAT
2. Broadening the tax base
3. Sustainability of pension system
4. Adopt a code of civil procedure
5. Safeguarding of legal independence for Greece ELSTAT — the statistic office
6. Full implementation of automatic spending cuts
7. Meet bank recovery and resolution directive
8. Privatize electricity transmission grid
9. Take decisive action on non-performing loans
10. Ensure independence of privatization body TAIPED
11. De-Politicize the Greek administration
12. Return of the Troika to Athens (the paper calls them the institutions)

The ministers recognise “there are serious concerns with sustainability of Greek debt” and raise the possiblity of considering “possible additional measures to further smoothen the path” for Greek debt – but they clearly rule out the possibility of another debt haircut.

http://www.politico.eu/article/gree...ut-reforms-eurozone-eurogroup-council-summit/

 

[Nivash]

That's exactly what I mean when I say that German economics are religion-driven. It's not a coincidence that debt, guilt and fault are the same word in German (Schuld). Sweden is culturally related to Germany, so I'm not surprised.

This isn't just a North vs South rift... it's also a Protestant vs Catholic/Orthodox rift. Europe is full of rifts... how can you unify this culturally diverse mess?

Same thing in Swedish too. Debt is "skuld", being guilty of a crime is "skyldig", "skuld" in ethics is to be at fault and feeling guilty for something you've done is to have "skuldkänslor". It's also tightly connected to duty - as in, if you have "skuld" you have a moral duty to repay it (which also implies that the only thing worse than "skuld" is failing to repay it). I looked it up in the official dictionary and all contexts are implied too be extremely negative, dating back centuries, with older religious sources pretty much outright using it as something of a synonym for sin.

Overcoming those rifts is going to be difficult but we don't have much of a choice. We're all stuck in the same boat, with or without the Euro and the EU. We can either work together to reach shore or eat each other.

EDIT: Coming to think of it, there's an argument to be made that the very Reformation itself was about disagreement on debt. One driving question was the Catholic practice of selling indulgences: basically, the Germans disagreed with the Papacy over whether you can buy yourself out of sin. Considering the connections mentioned between sin and debt, it's difficult not to think of the parallels to the present crisis.

 

[Maedre]

Reforms Greece has to push through by July 15:



http://www.politico.eu/article/gree...ut-reforms-eurozone-eurogroup-council-summit/

This should have happened six years ago....

 

[Tugatrix]

This should have happened six years ago....

this happened six years ago, stop saying they didn't austerity the poorer didn't popped out thin air

 

[CyclopsRock]

Overcoming those rifts is going to be difficult but we don't have much of a choice. We're all stuck in the same boat, with or without the Euro and the EU. We can either work together to reach shore or eat each other.

But why? I mean, Sweden's doing pretty good as nation states go, and it's not because of the EU or the Eurozone, no?

 

[LoveCake]

Reforms Greece has to push through by July 15, "drawn up by eurozone finance ministers which is now being considered at the summit."

1. Streamlining VAT
2. Broadening the tax base
3. Sustainability of pension system
4. Adopt a code of civil procedure
5. Safeguarding of legal independence for Greece ELSTAT — the statistic office
6. Full implementation of automatic spending cuts
7. Meet bank recovery and resolution directive
8. Privatize electricity transmission grid
9. Take decisive action on non-performing loans
10. Ensure independence of privatization body TAIPED
11. De-Politicize the Greek administration
12. Return of the Troika to Athens (the paper calls them the institutions)

http://www.politico.eu/article/gree...ut-reforms-eurozone-eurogroup-council-summit/

The people voted no to lesser measures than this last week, the Greek government is going to fall, there is no way they will vote through this, the people won't stand for it!

 

[jorma]

But why? I mean, Sweden's doing pretty good as nation states go, and it's not because of the EU or the Eurozone, no?

I disagree. Well obviously not with the EZ, but i think free trade and free movement in the EU was a huge benefit to our nation.

I'd never ever vote for a party who wanted us to leave EU no matter how much i liked them in other areas.

 

[Nivash]

But why? I mean, Sweden's doing pretty good as nation states go, and it's not because of the EU or the Eurozone, no?

I don't think there's an argument to be made about the fact that we have benefitted immensely in the EU. 75 % of our exports go to other members, so much in fact that while we technically weren't really hit by the Global Financial Crisis we took a hit by proxy because Europe couldn't buy as much of our products. Knocking down the barriers of trade did us a huge service. As for the Euro, well, at this point I think it's equally clear that we've done better without it. We have a high GDP per capita, a weak currency and still low inflation.

My comment on Europe is more about geography - we share the same neighbourhood and the same challenges. We need to get along whether we like it or not and considering the daunting challenges for both Europe and the world at large for the remainder of the century and beyond, we probably need the EU too.

 

[Negotiator]

EDIT: Coming to think of it, there's an argument to be made that the very Reformation itself was about disagreement on debt. One driving question was the Catholic practice of selling indulgences: basically, the Germans disagreed with the Papacy over whether you can buy yourself out of sin. Considering the connections mentioned between sin and debt, it's difficult not to think of the parallels to the present crisis.

That's an interesting parallel you make there.

 

[Nivash]

That's an interesting parallel you make there.

To be honest it probably sounds more profound than it is, it's been 500 years and that disagreement was over biblical interpretation and Papal authority, not actual monetary debt. Still, I can't help but notice the cultural implications. My actual point in any case is that I don't think the Germans are evil about this - they just disagree on the best course of action and that disagreement might in some part have cultural roots.

Drawing direct historical parallels is entertaining but risky.

 

[KingSnake]

The spokesman for European Council president Donald Tusk tweets that the main talks have now been suspended - and that separate side talks between individual countries will take place to try and find a solution.

European Union.

 

[nature boy]

this happened six years ago, stop saying they didn't austerity the poorer didn't popped out thin air

Uh no, Greece has failed several IMF reviews.

 

[Linkyn]

This isn't just a North vs South rift... it's also a Protestant vs Catholic/Orthodox rift. Europe is full of rifts... how can you unify this culturally diverse mess?

That mess is exactly why you have to unify Europe. The EU and all its related institutions are a project of gargantuan scope, and there are obstacles everywhere along the path to federalisation and the continental unity, but with so many different people living so closely together, you have to find a way for everyone to be part of something bigger.

 

[Theonik]

To be honest it probably sounds more profound than it is, it's been 500 years and that disagreement was over biblical interpretation and Papal authority, not actual monetary debt. Still, I can't help but notice the cultural implications. My actual point in any case is that I don't think the Germans are evil about this - they just disagree on the best course of action and that disagreement might in some part have cultural roots.

Drawing direct historical parallels is entertaining but risky.

It is not evil. But the problem is using this cultural perception decide what the right path is whilst ignoring all the evidence counter to it. It's even worse when you attempt to indoctrinate other states with your insanity.

 

[Tugatrix]

Uh no, Greece has failed several IMF reviews.

I thought Samaras was the shit, the pretty boy for austerity

 

[KingSnake]

Uh no, Greece has failed several IMF reviews.

That's not what Merkel said last year.

 

[Theonik]

I thought Samaras was the shit, the pretty boy for austerity

 

[nature boy]

That's not what Merkel said last year.

http://blog-imfdirect.imf.org/2015/07/09/greece-past-critiques-and-the-path-forward/

Many of these reforms were either not implemented, or not implemented on a sufficient scale. Efforts to improve tax collection and the payment culture failed completely. There was fierce resistance to open closed sectors and professions. Only 5 of 12 planned IMF reviews under the current program were completed, and only one has been completed since mid-2013, because of the failure to implement reforms.

 

[chadskin]

Tusk @eucopresident has suspended #EuroSummit on #Greece for bilateral meetings in search of compromise