• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures

Status
Not open for further replies.

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton

Sure, now when everything is useful in negotiations. But last year when the proper party was leading ...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303873604579495000051938112

"In the last year-and-a-half, a lot really has happened and there is powerful evidence that the efforts have paid off," Ms. Merkel said at a joint news conference with Greek Prime Minister Antonis Samaras. "Greece has many more opportunities now, rather than problems."

Edit:Guess what government should have implemented those reforms?

Also, IMF hadn't delayed any payment last year, as they usually do when the plan is not followed.
 
"This is the proper time for the best sex*"

* Greek people will have to take it up in the ass, not Samaras himself.

Sure, now when everything is useful in negotiations. But last year when the proper party was leading ...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303873604579495000051938112



Edit:Guess what government should have implemented those reforms?

Also, IMF hadn't delayed any payment last year, as they usually do when the plan is not followed.
Samaras was Merkel's lapdog. Don't forget the #GreeceSuccessStory
 

chadskin

Member
Here's the reforms draft of the Eurogroup finance ministers in its entirety:
CJumJfaWwAAweYO.jpg
CJumEfBXAAA0SGM.jpg

CJumGvHWwAAJ165.jpg
CJumCppUAAABRRV.jpg
via https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/620272062771429377
 

CTLance

Member
Man, this is just so much of a clusterfuck, and everytime they try to fix it, it gets even clusterfuckier. Cripes. No way is this gonna get waved through the Greek parliament. It's basically the exact thing the Greeks voted no on, only even more painful.

Plus, it's more of the same, putting the likelihood of success in question. I mean, sure, if all you have is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail, but after some unsuccessful hammering you ought to stop and consider whether using the screwdriver wouldn't have been the better idea.



Little idiom lesson for ze German language just to lighten things up a bit, language is strange at times.

You can "give someone else the debt for something" - "jemandem die Schuld an etwas geben" - which means you blame them for whatever. Funny picture: "Jemandem die Schuld in die Schuhe schieben" - to push/stick the debt into somebody else's shoes - means the same, usually implying that the one who's doing the pushing is evading the (justified) fallout.

All that ambiguity got tedious, so after a while we Germans settled on "Schuld" implying blame/guilt/etc, and the plural - "Schulden" becoming the word for debts.
"Schuld haben" - being guilty of something/the reason for something
"Schulden haben" - being in debt
So if you have multiple things to be blamed for, you are in debt. Or something.

Languages, eh?

But really, it kinda sorta does say something about us.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
But why? I mean, Sweden's doing pretty good as nation states go, and it's not because of the EU or the Eurozone, no?

Sweden and the UK are doing great because of the EU and the Eurozone. All the investors trying to escape the European mess are putting their money in us. :p
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
lol Schauble

"I hear you have interest-returning assets that you at least partially use to pay your debts. Let's make a condition of your debt relief that you give them to us. Fair's fair, right?"
 

oti

Banned
That €50bn proposal is the most humiliating thing they have done so far and I can't believe that it's even talked about.
 
I imagine Tsirpas wishes he signed that previous shitty deal right about now. I'm not sure if Germany and co. is trying to smoke Greece(or Syriza) out or if they really think this will go through the parliament.
 

Theonik

Member
That €50bn proposal is the most humiliating thing they have done so far and I can't believe that it's even talked about.
"As a condition for this 80bn Euro loan you will give me 50bn in assets. And you will still pay the 80bn loan."

Actually all the MoU have spirits of this. "Here's this money, I'm expecting it back with interest but I also want your immortal soul."

Greece should have said fuck it when it was just banks and they could simply default at the expense of their creditors.
 

norinrad

Member
this happened six years ago, stop saying they didn't austerity the poorer didn't popped out thin air

Yes it happened on paper, no one enforced it to see things through, which is why the other EU members have a hard time trusting Greece. We will be back here again in 3 years after all the promises being made by Tsipras. His party would probably kick him out before Christmas too.
 

Vlodril

Member
If tsipras accepts this he is insane. thats pretty much worse than the whole papanderou/venizelos/samaras thing.

Of course if they managed to reach here without a plan b (no way to go back to the drachma or whatever else) he may have no other solution.

Either way i find it criminal and god help everyone who signs this since its basically giving away even more of the Greek sovereignty. It should seriously be up to the higher court to block this but from what i ve seen no one actually cares what the highest court says.

It blows my mind that this may(will?) actually pass through the parliament.
 

oti

Banned
"As a condition for this 80bn Euro loan you will give me 50bn in assets. And you will still pay the 80bn loan."

Actually all the MoU have spirits of this. "Here's this money, I'm expecting it back with interest but I also want your immortal soul."

Greece should have said fuck it when it was just banks and they could simply default at the expense of their creditors.

I really hope that Tusk and Hollande are trying to talk some sense into Germany right now.
 

PJV3

Member
If tsipras accepts this he is insane. thats pretty much worse than the whole papanderou/venizelos/samaras thing.

Of course if they managed to reach here without a plan b (no way to go back to the drachma or whatever else) he may have no other solution.

Either way i find it criminal and god help everyone who signs this since its basically giving away even more of the Greek sovereignty. It should seriously be up to the higher court to block this but from what i ve seen no one actually cares what the highest court says.

It blows my mind that this may(will?) actually pass through the parliament.

They need to walk, it isn't worth it and they will still be in the shit. They just need to make Tsipras kneel before Merkel on TV to finish the deal.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Isn't the 50b in asset more or less security for the loan, like if they defaulted.

More like payment for the existing loans. The major problem is that these are income generating assets. So practically making even more impossible for Greece in the future.


Plus privatising 50bn assets in current conditions means those assets value probably double in normal conditions.
 
Are you immune to facts and data?

Amount of yen you can buy per USD:

http://i.imgur.com/dfw2qVk.png[img]

Nikkei index:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/JRn2R67.png[img][/QUOTE]

Your point? It's like you don't get the concept of terms of trade.

Even an export focused country doesn't want the weakest possible currency. Especially if a country like Germany doesn't have any natural resources.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Isn't the 50b in asset more or less security for the loan, like if they defaulted.
Doesn't seem so, since they talk about the assets being privatized.
I remember Schäuble saying, when asked about it being a bad point in time to privatize Greek assets (talking about harbours, I think), that it's better to sell at a bad prize and have it run efficiently by a company that pays wages and taxes than to have it stay government-owned while waiting for a better prize.
He probably hasn't changed his position on that.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
I remember Schäuble saying, when asked about it being a bad point in time to privatize Greek assets (talking about harbours, I think), that it's better to sell at a bad prize and have it run efficiently by a company that pays wages and taxes than to have it stay government-owned while waiting for a better prize.
He probably hasn't changed his position on that.

Better for the company that will buy it for cheap, for sure.

And the tax "optimisation" will bring a lot of those taxes in the homeland of the company. I see it happening a lot in the Eastern Europe.
 
That €50bn proposal is the most humiliating thing they have done so far and I can't believe that it's even talked about.
Isn't this the equivalent of Treuhand? They want to privatize €50bn of public assets.

Then again, I don't think that East Germany was indebted for handing their public property... so yeah, it seems like a pretty bad deal (fire sale + 200% debt/GDP ratio = Greece kaputt).
 

jorma

is now taking requests
I remember Schäuble saying, when asked about it being a bad point in time to privatize Greek assets (talking about harbours, I think), that it's better to sell at a bad prize and have it run efficiently by a company that pays wages and taxes than to have it stay government-owned while waiting for a better prize.
He probably hasn't changed his position on that.

You have to wonder why he would say such a thing, because it's some truly dumb shit unless you are a private investor about to make a killing.
 

oti

Banned
How Greece Can Solve Its Debt Crisis

Currently in negotiations with the European Central Bank, Greece faces an uncertain future as it attempts to prevent financial collapse in the midst of its debt crisis. Here are some potential ways Greece could solve its economic woes:

- Try renting out extra space above Thessaloniki to bring in more income
- Avoid frivolous spending on things like health care and a national infrastructure
- Appoint a special finance minister charged with groveling at Angela Merkel’s feet
- Increase number of hourly tours of Parthenon
- See if populace can think up another new branch of science, form of government, philosophical mode of thought, or basis for Western culture that can be licensed for quick cash
- Plunder the Turks
- Place tourism ads in Golf Digest and Woman’s Day magazines
- Finally end Greece’s outdated practice of paying Rome a 30 million denarii tribute each year
- Patiently remind creditors that money is just a social construct that holds no intrinsic value
- 10.8 million cups of hemlock

http://www.theonion.com/article/how-greece-can-solve-its-debt-crisis-50801
 
The germans should be acutely aware what a rift with France and possibly Italy over this would do to the EU. Without French support the Germans don't have to support to dominate EU policy to the degree they have.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
So, Tspiras has agreed to reform package mentioned above, and has agreed to try to push it through parliament by Wednesday...

...what was the referendum about again? A gamble that didn't pay off, or is there anything in this that has strengthened Greece's negotiating position?
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
So, Tspiras has agreed to reform package mentioned above, and has agreed to try to push it through parliament by Wednesday...

...what was the referendum about again? A gamble that didn't pay off, or is there anything in this that has strengthened Greece's negotiating position?

Has he?
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
So, Tspiras has agreed to reform package mentioned above, and has agreed to try to push it through parliament by Wednesday...

He hasn't agreed yet.

...what was the referendum about again? A gamble that didn't pay off, or is there anything in this that has strengthened Greece's negotiating position?

Yes, the referendum was total nonsense. At the very least you should be prepared to push through with a Grexit, instead of having your bluff called out after just two days. This really wasn't worth the circus we saw over the last weeks.
 
You have to wonder why he would say such a thing, because it's some truly dumb shit unless you are a private investor about to make a killing.
Or unless you're a neoliberal puppet... just like most of current EU leaders.

All these puppets are nothing like Helmut Kohl, François Mitterrand, Jacques Delors etc. No wonder EU has gone down the shitter and nationalism/right-wing parties are on an all-time high across Europe.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
lol Schauble

"I hear you have interest-returning assets that you at least partially use to pay your debts. Let's make a condition of your debt relief that you give them to us. Fair's fair, right?"

Since the last one-two weeks Schäuble seems to be seriously pissed on a personal level. He really went into no-compromise-no-fucks-given mode.
 

oti

Banned
Official: Tsipras given "mental waterboarding" over reform plans

Alexis Tsipras was given a very rough ride in his meeting with Tusk, Merkel and Hollande, our Europe editor Ian Traynor reports.

Tsipras was told that Greece will either become an effective “ward” of the eurozone, by agreeing to immediately implement swift reforms this week.

Or, it leaves the euro area and watches its banks collapse.

One official dubbed it “extensive mental waterboarding”, in an attempt to make the Greek PM fall into line.

An unpleasant image, that highlights just how far we have now fallen from those European standards of solidarity and unity.

CJu8-TZWcAARbl0.jpg


http://www.theguardian.com/business...sis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
 

Oogedei

Member
Time to kick Schaeuble out of the EU. That guy is so annoying. It's not like he didn't accepted some shady, illegal donations back in 1999. Argh, it's making me so angry that this corrupt guy is going to destroy the EU.
 
Tsipras has played the negotiations like a moron and I've opposed most Greek moves since he got elected but several finance ministers seem to be negotiating in anger with some of those demands.
 

vinnygambini

Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
The Greek crisis has exposed deep political faultlines in the eurozone.

Eurozone countries that endured their own harsh rescue programmes, such as Spain, Portugal and Ireland, do not want Greece to escape pain.

In eastern Europe, the eurozone’s poorest members are furious at the prospect of helping Greece fund better pensions than their own. Having suffered much greater recessions in the overthrow of Communism, they want Athens to stop complaining and start serious reforms. Their voices may be small, but their successful economic records carry weight.

The French socialist president’s irritation towards Berlin was palpable on Sunday. While a Berlin-led group of countries was unwilling to commit to new bailout talks with Athens before the far-left government passed a series of immediate budgetary measures in parliament, Mr Hollande urged “an agreement tonight.” He criticised Mr Schäuble’s temporary “Grexit” proposal, saying: “There cannot be a temporary exit of Greece from the eurozone. Either Greece is in the eurozone or out of the eurozone. But in that case, Europe would be retreating and I don’t want that.”

Attacks on Greece have been regular, sharp and public. “We need a solution but not at any cost,” tweeted Joseph Muscat, the prime minister of Malta, echoing Germany’s position. “I agree,” tweeted Taavi Roivas, the prime minister of Estonia, in response.

But it is among poorer countries in the east that criticism is most forthright. A typical pensioner in Lithuania will take home less than half of a pensioner in Greece. The failure to push through Greek pension reforms is therefore particularly tough for these countries to take.

Dalia Grybauskaitė, the often abrasive president of Lithuania, said last week: “[With] the Greek government it is every time mañana.”

A great article (snippets above) that illustrates this whole mess.


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/14faf11e-289f-11e5-8613-e7aedbb7bdb7.html#axzz3fhdrBg6r
 

1871

Member
This last document is insanity.

Tsipras can't sign. They are going to bleed Greeks like they're pigs, one way or another.

The level of violence is incredible. This is not just numbers, this translates in lives destroyed.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Waterboarding is an apt description of what's happening today with Greece

"Do you sign this now and get killed based on it later or ... Blblblblboblobll ... get killed now"
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
This last document is insanity.

Tsipras can't sign. They are going to bleed Greeks like they're pigs, one way or another.

The level of violence is incredible. This is not just numbers, this translates in lives destroyed.
I think it's a "get out" document. They're giving them an offer they can't accept so they can later say "we tried".
 

itsgreen

Member
Waterboarding is an apt description of what's happening today with Greece

"Do you sign this now and get killed based on it later or ... Blblblblboblobll ... get killed now"

Well that is what happens when you screw around playing games for 6 months, destroying your own economy, (saying that you) reverse policies and destroying trust in your government by others
 
Waterboarding is an apt description of what's happening today with Greece

"Do you sign this now and get killed based on it later or ... Blblblblboblobll ... get killed now"

And people were crying foul at Varoufakis and his "financial terrorism" comment...

Jesus fucking Christ, what a clusterfuck... :-(
 
Time to kick Schaeuble out of the EU. That guy is so annoying. It's not like he didn't accepted some shady, illegal donations back in 1999. Argh, it's making me so angry that this corrupt guy is going to destroy the EU.
Varoufakis stepped down, so I think it's only fair that Germany does the same with Schaeuble. All he does is to hinder negotiations and on top of that he pisses off plenty of people outside of Greece (Draghi, France, Italy etc.)
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Well that is what happens when you screw around playing games for 6 months, destroying your own economy, reversing policies and destroying trust in your government by others

What policies were reversed in the past 6 months? How did Tsipras government destroyed Greek economy in 6 months? Or are you taking about GDP dropping 25% from 2010 to 2014 under the great Troika plan? Do you have some data to back up these statements?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom