Theonik
Member
The people who were crying foul for anything other than the fact he shouldn't have said it on diplomatic grounds were idiots. (Of course it's true, you have to be either blind or smoking the good shit to think otherwise)
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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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I edited my comment to make it more clear, afaik he ran on a programme of reversing policies...
How do you think the Greek economy is doing at this exact moment, since the 1st of July. As far as I know there is a real liquidity problem for normal Greek citizens. People can't spend money, businesses lose business... pretty sure that that isn't good for the economy. If he was more serious sooner that could have been avoided...
Greece's economy was fucked well before the new government took power. The new government simply wanted to reserve the idiotic austerity policies that put them in a much deeper pit than they should have been. Obviously that didnt work and its apparent that the new Greek government are just a bunch of cowardly morons, but still, I can't blame Greece for calling a turd a turd, even if it 'destroys' trust in your government by others.
petran79
Banned
well this goes mostly for the generation who will retire now or soon. Literally they're the last of their kind. Not for us! Eg my father was hired in 1983 in public education (he had some other jobs and also military service previously). He's currently school principal for another 2 years so after that he will reach and retire at 62. My mother is not so lucky. Works in education too. She prefers retiring and wait a few years before reaching the pension age.
Dicktatorship
Junior Member
Everything would have been so much simpler if The Roman empire was still around to assimilate and destroy every culture. Sigh.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Greece really should not agree to this.
This is indeed economic terrorism.
This is indeed economic terrorism.
Are you kidding? The whole mess is Europe asking Greece to bleed because they don't want anti-austerity parties to grow. Austerity which is failing immensely.
They'd rather risk helping neonazis than let anyone contest the neoliberal dogma.
We're just witnessing the slow end of the European social-democratic State.
What baffles me are the expectations this Greek government.
(1) They thought that the referendum would impress anyone in the creditor institutions/nations enough to radically change their position, even though everyone was already aware that the Greek public rejects such conditions, and even though nobody outside of Greece is bound to the mandate of the Greek people, but instead to the mandate of their own people.
(2) They thought that the creditors would accept the same proposal that had been on the table for a much smaller amount of money and a much shorter timeframe, just after the Greek government through that referendum very publicly declared that they are not supporting it to the death.
If you are gambling this hard/silly, be prepared for when they others are calling your bluff. They should have accepted and prepared for the possibility of a Grexit. Or just initiate it earlier when the damage done was lower than now. That they haven't shows that they are either incompetent or completely reckless. They are playing here with the fortune of their country too.
The Greek economy was fucked before 1st of July. Greece is de facto in default since 2010.
But what you say is that because he had the courage to try to negotiate (better or worse), Greece deserves the waterboarding. OK.
Reversing policies on which people have loaned you money destroys trust quite a bit. Not a very smart thing if you need more money from those same people.
Someone quoted some anonymous greek insiders/negotiators who were saying that Germany doesn't want a deal at any cost and that Schäuble were asking them "what do you want for leaving the EZ" and what not.
Seems they were right.
And yes, he probably should gtfo. His joke about trading greece for PR like it was his fucking property to get rid of was just as out of order as Varoufakis terrorist-comment.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
What angers me the most in that Merkel and the SPD are so silent. Its all Schäuble talking. Only a few hours ago when he came forth with his timed grexit idea the base of the SPD got angry.
SPD is supposed to be the left counterpart to the CDU/CSU in germany, and they are part of the government right now and they've been acting like whimps for months now.
German media(I'm usually a big fan of german media, I think we have some of the best outlets in the world) is also doing a crappy job. Not only the BILD. I expect BILD to write stupid and borderline racist shit, but unfortunately its not only BILD.
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktqKNu4N9Ds
Activate subtitles.
Germany was met with so much solidarity after WW2, if we fuck this up now I don't see an idea like the EU ever working out as intended.
It's "too big to not crush everyone" terrorism. They used these loans to decide the economic fate of another country. Greece in the 2000s was thriving economically. And then 2008 happened.
That's because people were afraid that they were going off the Euro and onto the Drachma. That obviously entails some very short term pain, but better that than a slow death by austerity and debt bondage. Of course, the Greece's government is being quite stupid by not having the guts to just say fuck it and leave, but instead completely capitulated to their creditors. So yea, in that light, the new government made it worse because a Greek government that never pretended to fight back against turd policies would likely have not seen bank runs and credit crunches as much as the new government had because the Greek people would have realized that they werent leaving the Euro and they would be taking it up the ass for quite some time.
Again, can you quote the policies that were reversed?
Theonik
Member
There were ongoing negotiations for the past 5 months that went nowhere and a really big artificially induced liquidity crisis. (forcing the ECB not to act as a central bank and apply pressure and induce fear into the financial system that is based on exactly the opposite)
This isn't Tsipras not being serious. This is an external attack on the Greek finance system. By extension it can be likened to a form of financial terrorism.
Edit:
I don't think they are so much cowards. They overestimated the creditor's goodwill and willingness to listen to reason. They also underestimated how much cruelty they were willing to show.
Default is a good option. Which they should have done given expectations, and is why the new government is such a failure. And what policies did they actually reverse? It seemed like all talk to me.
The word terrorism has already been diluted of all meaning. Please don't use it as a stand in for blackmail.
This has shown that the SPD is basically a little CDU and by that it has stripped itself from any relevance whatsoever. CDU wants Vorratsdatenspeicherung, SPD says ok. CDU wants a Grexit proposal, SPD says ok and then lies about them knowing about the proposal. They can be happy they got their minimum wage I guess.
vinnygambini
Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
Default is a not good option for either parties involved - the repercussions to Europe would be massive.
Hope the EU puts their differences aside and build a better union with Greece in it.
Hope the EU puts their differences aside and build a better union with Greece in it.
What did you expect the ECB to do?
Just continue sending additional emergency funds despite the fact that the leader of that country is saying, "Yeah we aren't going to do those plans you have asked from us, I will hold a referendum and ask my people to say no. But in the mean time can you please continue sending us money?"
The country is in a shit-ton of trouble, and pretending everything is dandy while you yell to your supporters what they want to hear, and hold up your hand for more money to the people you demonize isn't a great strategy.
Well it seems like if Syriza signs off on this deal they agree that the economy has been tanking for 5 years because they should have austered even harder in the last 12 months. Because that's what the proposal seems to imply.
Ether_Snake
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Can you guys imagine what message this is sending to Italy, Portugal, Spain, Ireland? Do you really think the population will go "well we better get our finances in order, and acquiesce to all demands, or else we'll be kicked out!".
I'd be quite curious to see voter intentions over the coming months. This is economic war being waged.
I'd be quite curious to see voter intentions over the coming months. This is economic war being waged.
Theonik
Member
According to the FBI:
Of course, since governments are not subject to law, it fails the first part of the definition but is otherwise perfectly in line with what Terrorism is defined as. And yes, Terrorism is just a codeword for a form of blackmail.
Default is a very hard path to take. In 2010 when the debt was private and the economy was better off it was a better option. It has become increasingly more risky.
The mutually beneficial solution is a joint agreement that favours the interests of both parties. Such a position exists but politics prevents it from being possible.
Perfect groundwork for the far-right to thrive. The working-class Left is in no position to capitalize in many countries.
ECB is the central bank of euro zone. Greek banks are still part of eurozone. ECB duty is to make sure there is liquidity in the Euro banks. You can either kick out Greece out of Euro or make your duty. You can't have it half way. You can't have the central bank discriminate some of the banks. ECB should be politically independent. But it isn't and for that Eurozone is useless.
Now, how about those reversed policies, any luck?
nature boy
Member
I think it is pretty clear that that was never going to happen and it became less likely as this crisis has dragged on. It just makes people more upset about continually propping up greece, demands that they be punished, etc.
Ether_Snake
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Waste everyone's time and ploy to make a government fall?
The EZ and the EU are dead now. The facade is gone.
Liquidity is not the same as solvency. The problem with the Greek banks is that they are practically insolvent, especially when the Greek government defaults, since much of their assets is based on government bonds.
The ECB cannot continue to fund insolvent banks.
Why are are so many people talking about the EU here? This is about Greece possibly being forced to leave the Eurozone and/or defaulting. Why would they also want to leave the EU?
Also get some perspective on previous EU crises, the EU was going to collapse when the EU Constitution failed in 2004 and again in 2007 when the Lisbon treaty was put on referendum and didn't pass.
Offer a proposal that leaves them with unsustainable debt and take 50bn worth of assets along the ride?
Apologies if he hasn't, just saw that reported on Sky News that 'the greek government' had agreed these things, but maybe that's incorrect or blurring over various subtleties.
http://news.sky.com/story/1517551/greece-accepts-some-demands-in-bailout-bid
The Greek government is not yet in default. Because of a political decision. And I'm talking about liquidity of the banks, not solvency. Access to the funding that any bank in Euro has. You can't cut bank funding unless you have a Grexit or a default.
The banks were not insolvent either at that time.
Theonik
Member
Yes, this is why a default or a real resolution is getting increasingly harder. Moreover the cost of a real solution for the creditors is increasing every time their proposals fail miserably.
A pessimistic view is that the creditors are doing it on purpose with an agenda of not restoring Greek stability but reducing their exposure to the eventual Greek exit getting as much money as they can along the way until eventually they can just throw them off. We have about reached this point.
They are not cutting out all funding, no? They have limited the total amount of funding to the value of the Greek bank's assets as they estimated it. That's their job. Assure liquidity according to the assets that banks actually have. If cash demands supersedes the value of said assets, additional money would not be anymore about ensuring liquidity.
Well if the goal is to get Greece out, then they should just say so.
Your hyperbole is ridiculous.
I get what you are saying, but at some point the ECB has to look at the broader picture and do what is best for the Euro/other Euro members. At some point you have to stop trying to fill the bucket with water if the bucket has holes and the person responsible for the bucket refuses to fix all the holes.
Negotiator
Member
Schäuble is probably playing the bad cop role and I guess that's why Merkel "needs" him, regardless of his criminal past. It's disgusting, but it is what it is.
Thanks for the video. It gave me a good laugh! Greeks are twice as rich as Germans? Ahahahaha!
Greece vs Germany per capita income ($25000 vs $45000)
vinnygambini
Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
Aren't talks happening with the European Union on the prospects of aiding Greece?
I'm sorry but I may not understand your question here. Care to elaborate? Genuine.
I don't know why people keep saying this. this ever closer union bullshit is a wet dream of the left, especially the french left. it was never a serious proposition.
I'm not talking about funding of the Greek government. The Greek banks are private entities that function under some strict rules and under supervision of ECB. Bad luck for them being in Euro I guess. They were treated as being in insolvency before being in insolvency. Forcing them to be practically.
That video is extremely satirical. I can't even muster a grin, to be honest. This is just too grim.
One could argue that that was apparent for everybody except the most ardent supporters. Since Schröder, at the very least.
The talks are with both the Eurozone and the EU about using the European Stability Mechanism. Greece's default or bailout doesn't have anything to do with it being in the EU however, only the Eurozone which is a grouping inside the EU.
Ether_Snake
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Problem is how long and drawn out the disintegration of it will take. It's far from over whatever happens to Greece.
That has always been his job in Germany. He's known for his high achievement rate, that's why they put him in "difficult" ministries.
That's GDP. Bild or whatever is probably refering to median household wealth or something: http://www.voxeu.org/article/are-germans-really-poorer-spaniards-italians-and-greeks
The weird thing under Merkel is how the CDU moved to the left. They ended nuclear power, they accepted a minimum wage and they ended general conscription, for example. It didn't leave much for the SPD. But now they actually have social democrate topics again, but they forgot how to fight for them, apparently.
vinnygambini
Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
Thanks for the correction/clarification, poor wording on my part then.
I get the reasoning. Still doesn't make it OK in the big scheme. Now every bank in Euro should make contingency plans in case ECB decides to fuck them. No bank has enough capital to cover for all the funding needed. It practically blows in the air the whole structure. Any bank in Portugal should now recapitalise up to the total of deposits or what? Because the loans and investments can be evaluated in such different ways.
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